The carb wars continued

[wavelength]

I listened to the first radio show. Are there any studies on body composition that would prove that keto diets work better than high protein diets which include carbs?

I know of many studies showing that the only factor for weight change is caloric intake and the only factor for body composition is protein intake.

If we disregard scientific studies and just look at emperical data, most bodybuilders do not follow a keto diet and seem to do great.

[Strikerrjones]

I've read a bunch of studies that show that caloric intake affects weight the same no matter what your diet is composed of. However, I didn't see body composition mentioned in any of the studies. Dave's diet is supposed to be so effective because it spares muscle while using fat as a fuel source.
If there are any studies showing body composition instead of just weight loss, I'd be interested to see them.

[Yolo]

It is clear that both approaches work and there can be arguments back and forth for another 10 years why keto is better than carbs or why carbs are better than keto.

In my opinion, it is up to the individual to decide which approach he feels suits him better and then stay his course until he reaches his goals.

[wavelength]

I've read a bunch of studies that show that caloric intake affects weight the same no matter what your diet is composed of. However, I didn't see body composition mentioned in any of the studies. Dave's diet is supposed to be so effective because it spares muscle while using fat as a fuel source.
If there are any studies showing body composition instead of just weight loss, I'd be interested to see them.

There are studies on weight change which compare keto diets to other diets and no difference could be observed. I also remember studies on body composition of high protein diets with different carb intake that showed no difference. I could not find a study on body composition comparing keto diets with high protein diets which include carbs. Would also be interested if such a study exists.

[BNJ]

Even Dave says the best diet to gain muscle will include carbs.

[Honour]

TBH I don't really know the science of it all and don't really have the time to look too deeply into it. I just know that for Summer here myself and my Missus gave it a try and it worked like nothing else;).

I think for me it's hard to stick too for too long (eg over 3 weeks or so) without going back to a normal low carb diet for a week or so here and there, but you can't really argue with results I guess can you:).

[wavelength]

TBH I don't really know the science of it all and don't really have the time to look too deeply into it. I just know that for Summer here myself and my Missus gave it a try and it worked like nothing else;).

I think for me it's hard to stick too for too long (eg over 3 weeks or so) without going back to a normal low carb diet for a week or so here and there, but you can't really argue with results I guess can you:).

The problem is that the success of a certain method does not prove that all restrictions are necessary. It may be more convenient and easier to stick to for some people, but at the same rate of weight change, I doubt that a difference in body composition could be shown.

[BIGGUY86]

this has has clearly gone on long enough... get over it... EVERYONE...

i like both, and agree both methods work. PERIOD...

one may work better for you than the other... its up to you to figure that out, and once you do.

dont argue that the other doesnt work... because FACTS are, they both do.

END TOPIC

[wavelength]

this has has clearly gone on long enough... get over it... EVERYONE...

i like both, and agree both methods work. PERIOD...

one may work better for you than the other... its up to you to figure that out, and once you do.

dont argue that the other doesnt work... because FACTS are, they both do.

END TOPIC

Fact is that keto diets work for some people. Fact is that non-keto diets work for some people. The claim however seems to be that keto diets work better for all people. If no such claim is made, I agree, the discussion can be ended.

[BIGGUY86]

yeh but there are claims from both sides,

and there both right. and their both wrong...

its needless to keep this argument going...

WL im not pointing the finger at just you, this carb Vs Keto things been going for ages...

lets just let it go hey???

[wavelength]

yeh but there are claims from both sides,

and there both right. and their both wrong...

its needless to keep this argument going...

WL im not pointing the finger at just you, this carb Vs Keto things been going for ages...

lets just let it go hey???

Nopes it's just too much fun :D

I would like to know if Dave claims that keto diets are superior for everyone and why. I'm just curious, that's all. :cool:

[Luka Treska]

I think a lot of people make the discussion more complicated than it needs to be. I think it essentially boils down to metabolic rate and activity level. From personal experience, I've seen some people with really slow metabolisms do great on keto and then some do great on protein and carbs. The second group did more cardio or they were using fat burners like cytomel, clen, etc.

I've tried both and although I can successfully use the keto approach, I have a very fast metabolism and can diet on 500g of carbs a day with no problem.

[flexingtonsteele]

Dave worked with hundreds of competitors this year dieting for shows.

ALL with amazing fat loss and great results.

I think thats better than any "study".......Real life results are what its all about wavey!!

[-Z-]

They both wrok. Simple as that.

[STEELERJ-XL]

Nopes it's just too much fun :D

I would like to know if Dave claims that keto diets are superior for everyone and why. I'm just curious, that's all. :cool:

I wont speak for Dave but I know he has Tony Freeman, Evan Centopony, Frankenhouser (I prolly misspelled but im a hillbilly) and many others winning shows with his diet.

[flexingtonsteele]

I wont speak for Dave but I know he has Tony Freeman, Evan Centopony, Frankenhouser (I prolly misspelled but im a hillbilly) and many others winning shows with his diet.


Fankhouser doesnt use dave for his contest prep, he uses this dude named andy from the pittsburg area.

[wavelength]

Dave worked with hundreds of competitors this year dieting for shows.

ALL with amazing fat loss and great results.

I think thats better than any "study".......Real life results are what its all about wavey!!

I agree flexy!!! :D
The majority of bodybuilders use non-keto diets with amazing fat loss and great results.

[Youngguns]

Let's look at the best. Ronnie Coleman, Jay Cutler, Shawn Ray, Paul Dillett, etc, they got there dieting with CARBS.


However if you're obese I believe keto is a good way to lose the first large sum of fat.

[flexingtonsteele]

I agree flexy!!! :D
The majority of bodybuilders use non-keto diets with amazing fat loss and great results.

actually i was saying the keto diet ( palumbos diet ) works lol. :D

but still nice to see that u agree with me

[wavelength]

They both wrok. Simple as that.

So a claim of superiority of keto diets for everyone would be ridiculous?

[wavelength]

actually i was saying the keto diet ( palumbos diet ) works lol. :D
but still nice to see that u agree with me

Yes but this was already agreed upon. the question is if keto diets are superior for body composition.

[flexingtonsteele]

So a claim of superiority of keto diets for everyone would be ridiculous?

no they work for EVERYONE some people are just too much of a "vagina" to try them out for the long haul.

after feeling a slight headache after two days they quit, then say it wasnt for them.

[wavelength]

no they work for EVERYONE some people are just too much of a "vagina" to try them out for the long haul.

after feeling a slight headache after two days they quit, then say it wasnt for them.

I know of people, myself included, who did worse on a keto diet regarding body composition, and I tried a lot longer than two days.

If a claim of superiority for everyone is made, we need evidence. Such evidence is not provided as of now.

[ironman0370]

Here's one:

Arch Intern Med. 2006 Feb 13;166(3):285-93

Erratum in:
Arch Intern Med. 2006 Apr 24;166(8):932.

Comment in:
Arch Intern Med. 2006 Jul 10;166(13):1419-20; author reply 1420.

Effects of low-carbohydrate vs low-fat diets on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials.Nordmann AJ, Nordmann A, Briel M, Keller U, Yancy WS Jr, Brehm BJ, Bucher HC. Basel Institute for Clinical Epidemiology, University Hospital Basel, Hebelstrasse 10, CH-4031 Basel, Switzerland. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Low-carbohydrate diets have become increasingly popular for weight loss. However, evidence from individual trials about benefits and risks of these diets to achieve weight loss and modify cardiovascular risk factors is preliminary. METHODS: We used the Cochrane Collaboration search strategy to identify trials comparing the effects of low-carbohydrate diets without restriction of energy intake vs low-fat diets in individuals with a body mass index (calculated as weight in kilograms divided by the square of height in meters) of at least 25. Included trials had to report changes in body weight in intention-to-treat analysis and to have a follow-up of at least 6 months. Two reviewers independently assessed trial eligibility and quality of randomized controlled trials. RESULTS: Five trials including a total of 447 individuals fulfilled our inclusion criteria. After 6 months, individuals assigned to low-carbohydrate diets had lost more weight than individuals randomized to low-fat diets (weighted mean difference, -3.3 kg; 95% confidence interval [CI], -5.3 to -1.4 kg). This difference was no longer obvious after 12 months (weighted mean difference, -1.0 kg; 95% CI, -3.5 to 1.5 kg). There were no differences in blood pressure. Triglyceride and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol values changed more favorably in individuals assigned to low-carbohydrate diets (after 6 months, for triglycerides, weighted mean difference, -22.1 mg/dL [-0.25 mmol/L]; 95% CI, -38.1 to -5.3 mg/dL [-0.43 to -0.06 mmol/L]; and for high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, weighted mean difference, 4.6 mg/dL [0.12 mmol/L]; 95% CI, 1.5-8.1 mg/dL [0.04-0.21 mmol/L]), but total cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol values changed more favorably in individuals assigned to low-fat diets (weighted mean difference in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol after 6 months, 5.4 mg/dL [0.14 mmol/L]; 95% CI, 1.2-10.1 mg/dL [0.03-0.26 mmol/L]). CONCLUSIONS: Low-carbohydrate, non-energy-restricted diets appear to be at least as effective as low-fat, energy-restricted diets in inducing weight loss for up to 1 year. However, potential favorable changes in triglyceride and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol values should be weighed against potential unfavorable changes in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol values when low-carbohydrate diets to induce weight loss are considered.

[wavelength]

Interesting study but not one on body composition comparing keto diets with high protein non-keto diets.

[ironman0370]

and even though this isn't a very good one, another........

Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):769-77.

Comment in:
Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):836-7.

Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):I10.

[B]Ann Intern Med. 2004 Nov 2;141(9):738; author reply 738-9.
A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-fat diet to treat obesity and hyperlipidemia: a randomized, controlled trial.Yancy WS Jr, Olsen MK, Guyton JR, Bakst RP, Westman EC. Center for Health Services Research in Primary Care, Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center, and Duke University Medical Center, Durham, North Carolina 27705, USA.

BACKGROUND: Low-carbohydrate diets remain popular despite a paucity of scientific evidence on their effectiveness. OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet program with those of a low-fat, low-cholesterol, reduced-calorie diet. DESIGN: Randomized, controlled trial. SETTING: Outpatient research clinic. PARTICIPANTS: 120 overweight, hyperlipidemic volunteers from the community. INTERVENTION: Low-carbohydrate diet (initially, <20 g of carbohydrate daily) plus nutritional supplementation, exercise recommendation, and group meetings, or low-fat diet (<30% energy from fat, <300 mg of cholesterol daily, and deficit of 500 to 1000 kcal/d) plus exercise recommendation and group meetings. MEASUREMENTS: Body weight, body composition, fasting serum lipid levels, and tolerability. RESULTS: A greater proportion of the low-carbohydrate diet group than the low-fat diet group completed the study (76% vs. 57%; P = 0.02). At 24 weeks, weight loss was greater in the low-carbohydrate diet group than in the low-fat diet group (mean change, -12.9% vs. -6.7%; P < 0.001). Patients in both groups lost substantially more fat mass (change, -9.4 kg with the low-carbohydrate diet vs. -4.8 kg with the low-fat diet) than fat-free mass (change, -3.3 kg vs. -2.4 kg, respectively). Compared with recipients of the low-fat diet, recipients of the low-carbohydrate diet had greater decreases in serum triglyceride levels (change, -0.84 mmol/L vs. -0.31 mmol/L [-74.2 mg/dL vs. -27.9 mg/dL]; P = 0.004) and greater increases in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels (0.14 mmol/L vs. -0.04 mmol/L [5.5 mg/dL vs. -1.6 mg/dL]; P < 0.001). Changes in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol level did not differ statistically (0.04 mmol/L [1.6 mg/dL] with the low-carbohydrate diet and -0.19 mmol/L [-7.4 mg/dL] with the low-fat diet; P = 0.2). Minor adverse effects were more frequent in the low-carbohydrate diet group. LIMITATIONS: We could not definitively distinguish effects of the low-carbohydrate diet and those of the nutritional supplements provided only to that group. In addition, participants were healthy and were followed for only 24 weeks. These factors limit the generalizability of the study results. CONCLUSIONS: Compared with a low-fat diet, a low-carbohydrate diet program had better participant retention and greater weight loss. During active weight loss, serum triglyceride levels decreased more and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol level increased more with the low-carbohydrate diet than with the low-fat diet.

[flexingtonsteele]

I know of people, myself included, who did worse on a keto diet regarding body composition, and I tried a lot longer than two days.

If a claim of superiority for everyone is made, we need evidence. Such evidence is not provided as of now.

maybe your diet was composed of the proper amounts of protein and fats.

because i know lots of people who think they're doin keto diets but they cut both carbs and fats and end up feeling and looking like shit.

[ironman0370]

I'm working on it............

[goddessamazon]

no they work for EVERYONE some people are just too much of a "vagina" to try them out for the long haul.

after feeling a slight headache after two days they quit, then say it wasnt for them.

AMEN to this ^^^

Also, it's all about discipline. Let's face it. Most people don't want to do a keto diet because they love carbs too much. I have no doubt that if a scientific study picked 10 bodybuilders of all races and genders and put them on a keto diet with heavy monitoring (because some people lie about not sneaking in carbs on a keto diet) then I have no doubt that it will work for all of them. However, if asked if they like it or will do it again probably half of them will say no because they miss eating carbs on a regular bases.


BTW - Ronnie Coleman can't be used as a defense for diets which include carbs. This guy drowns his food in Barbecue sauce and put Nestle Quick Mix in his protein powder. Both loaded with sugar. No one else could pull that off by him. Why? Cuz freaks of nature like Ronnie Coleman are not created everyday. :)

[wavelength]

maybe your diet was composed of the proper amounts of protein and fats.
because i know lots of people who think they're doin keto diets but they cut both carbs and fats and end up feeling and looking like shit.

I had plenty of fats in the diet, mostly what would be considered "good" fats. I'm not saying that with a few tweeks I couldn't have gotten better results. My body composition did also not change dramatically differently than on a non-keto diet. I think for many people, keto-diets are more convenient and thus easier to stick to. Was not the case for me, but that's irrelevant to the main question: do they really provide an advantage for body composition, provided that on the non-keto diet, protein is also high enough and rate of weight change is the same.

I'm not bashing keto diets at all, I'm just curious if such evidence exists, given the fact that most bodybuilders use non-keto diets and are doing great on them.

[wavelength]

and even though this isn't a very good one, another........

Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):769-77.

Comment in:
Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):836-7.

Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):I10.

[B]Ann Intern Med. 2004 Nov 2;141(9):738; author reply 738-9.
A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-fat diet to treat obesity and hyperlipidemia: a randomized, controlled trial.Yancy WS Jr, Olsen MK, Guyton JR, Bakst RP, Westman EC. Center for Health Services Research in Primary Care, Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center, and Duke University Medical Center, Durham, North Carolina 27705, USA.

BACKGROUND: Low-carbohydrate diets remain popular despite a paucity of scientific evidence on their effectiveness. OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet program with those of a low-fat, low-cholesterol, reduced-calorie diet. DESIGN: Randomized, controlled trial. SETTING: Outpatient research clinic. PARTICIPANTS: 120 overweight, hyperlipidemic volunteers from the community. INTERVENTION: Low-carbohydrate diet (initially, <20 g of carbohydrate daily) plus nutritional supplementation, exercise recommendation, and group meetings, or low-fat diet (<30% energy from fat, <300 mg of cholesterol daily, and deficit of 500 to 1000 kcal/d) plus exercise recommendation and group meetings. MEASUREMENTS: Body weight, body composition, fasting serum lipid levels, and tolerability. RESULTS: A greater proportion of the low-carbohydrate diet group than the low-fat diet group completed the study (76% vs. 57%; P = 0.02). At 24 weeks, weight loss was greater in the low-carbohydrate diet group than in the low-fat diet group (mean change, -12.9% vs. -6.7%; P < 0.001). Patients in both groups lost substantially more fat mass (change, -9.4 kg with the low-carbohydrate diet vs. -4.8 kg with the low-fat diet) than fat-free mass (change, -3.3 kg vs. -2.4 kg, respectively). Compared with recipients of the low-fat diet, recipients of the low-carbohydrate diet had greater decreases in serum triglyceride levels (change, -0.84 mmol/L vs. -0.31 mmol/L [-74.2 mg/dL vs. -27.9 mg/dL]; P = 0.004) and greater increases in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels (0.14 mmol/L vs. -0.04 mmol/L [5.5 mg/dL vs. -1.6 mg/dL]; P < 0.001). Changes in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol level did not differ statistically (0.04 mmol/L [1.6 mg/dL] with the low-carbohydrate diet and -0.19 mmol/L [-7.4 mg/dL] with the low-fat diet; P = 0.2). Minor adverse effects were more frequent in the low-carbohydrate diet group. LIMITATIONS: We could not definitively distinguish effects of the low-carbohydrate diet and those of the nutritional supplements provided only to that group. In addition, participants were healthy and were followed for only 24 weeks. These factors limit the generalizability of the study results. CONCLUSIONS: Compared with a low-fat diet, a low-carbohydrate diet program had better participant retention and greater weight loss. During active weight loss, serum triglyceride levels decreased more and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol level increased more with the low-carbohydrate diet than with the low-fat diet.

That one is a bit confusing. Was protein the same on both diets ("nutritional supplements")? Rate of weight change apparently was not.

[-Z-]

So a claim of superiority of keto diets for everyone would be ridiculous?

Of coarse. Nothing works the same for everyone.

[wavelength]

BTW - Ronnie Coleman can't be used as a defense for diets which include carbs. This guy drowns his food in Barbecue sauce and put Nestle Quick Mix in his protein powder. Both loaded with sugar. No one else could pull that off by him. Why? Cuz freaks of nature like Ronnie Coleman are not created everyday. :)

Well competitive bodybuilders are all freaks of nature. Most of them use non-keto diets. I don't think any Mr. Olympia used a keto diet.

[ironman0370]

Well, I'll keep looking. I have a dozen or more studies (abstracts, mostly...some full text) on keto/low-carb diets being better for weight loss, lipid profiles, etc. BUT.........nothing directly related to actual body composition results. At least not with humans, specifically weight-trained athletes.

Let's get Blechman to put his money where his mouth is and fund one!

;)

jst

[goddessamazon]

Well competitive bodybuilders are all freaks of nature. Most of them use non-keto diets. I don't think any Mr. Olympia used a keto diet.

There is only one Ronnie Coleman. I don't see other competitive bodybuilders as freaks of Nature except for Dorian, Kevin and Ronnie.

So if Toney Freeman because Mr O then what cha gonna say?

[wavelength]

Let's get Blechman to put his money where his mouth is and fund one! ;)
jst

That is exactly what I suggested on the "other" forum.

[wavelength]

There is only one Ronnie Coleman. I don't see other competitive bodybuilders as freaks of Nature except for Dorian, Kevin and Ronnie.

So if Toney Freeman because Mr O then what cha gonna say?

I would say the same thing I said throughout this thread: keto diets obviously work for some people.

[Dee]

The physiology behind the ketosis SHOULD work for everyone.....its basic HUMAN physiology....I think Compliance is the key....most people who start the keto diet cant make it past the adjustment phase in the beginning and think its a bad idea and just write it off....Like lee priest has done...
Others use too little fat and end up going slightly catabolic which of course is detrimental.

Can you diet with carbs? of course. Some people have different rates metabolism, and carb dieting works for them and can work for everyone. However, Keto diets, based on the physiology behind it, switching your body to a state where it preferentially burns fat due to the absence of carbohydrates SHOULD work for everyone....
Thats how i see it.

In any event, i think the general population is due for a reduction in carb intake.

[lifepulse]

I agree with Dee above, good post.

There is also a lot of failure to separate out elements in this debate. Yes, most bodybuilders diet "on carbs". But we also know that most bodybuilders do not come in with a super dry, super hard, super shredded look.

From my observations, it seems that those who diet on keto come in sharper and harder than those who diet on carbs. At the same time, I think they have a tendency to come in flatter as well.

Those who diet on carbs tend to come in not quite as shredded, but significantly fuller and rounder.

Bodybuilding is about having the right balance between conditioning AND mass. If you're shredded, but flat as hell, you don't look impressive. I did Dave's generic recommendation for keto diet this year in prep for the NPC Maryland State. I came in much sharper and harder, but definately much flatter, than when I've dieted on carbs. (Some will say Dave could have fixed this by doing the last week's prep, and that's probably true to a degree.)

If you look at Dave's clients, I think they have an astoundingly high track record of coming in SUPER shredded and hard, MUCH leaner than those who diet on carbs, on average. But at the same time, they definately don't look QUITE as full. A really good example of this would be Jeff Long at Jr. Nationals this year. He came in WAY sharper than the previous year's Nationals, but his size, especially in the legs, was WAY down.

The problem is, it's really hard to differentiate between what exactly is fat, what is water, and what is muscle. Very few bodybuilders in the modern era come in SUPER shredded and dry. Those that do, seem to favor a ketogenic approach.

Keto seems to work best for those that already "have all of their size", like a Toney Freeman. He is older, his muscle is more mature, it's not going to "go anywhere". It was built from years of lifting, with higher capillary density and maturity, vs. somebody who does high carbs and builds more from a pump and fascial stretching. Thus for Toney, keto seems to work great.

It would be really interesting to compile a list of the bodybuilders who come in the most shredded nowadays and look at their diets. I'm thining specifically of: Flex Lewis, Eric Fankhouser, Paco Bautista (the dryest and freakiest of them all), Toney Freeman, Dexter Jackson (maybe not the best example, as his metabolism is SO freakish), and Kai Greene. I would love to see how each diets, and compare and contrast. I imagine you would find these individuals diet on lower carbs, or no carbs, but I'm not sure of that.

One notable exception from the past was Dorian, who supposedly dieted on high carbs (400g a day) and came in SUPER hard and dry. But he was also a mad scientist when it came to drug and dietary manipulation.

When we're talking about "what works", we're talking about what it most likely to pay off ON AVERAGE. Thus, I think the point is that for pretty much everybody out there, keto guarantees the greatest degree of fat loss, but it might be at the expense of losing muscle and appearing flat, which defeats the purpose of prepping for a show in the first place!

Separate the elements and the debate gets much clearer.

-lifepulse

[Wolfstriked]

I agree with Dee above, good post.

There is also a lot of failure to separate out elements in this debate. Yes, most bodybuilders diet "on carbs". But we also know that most bodybuilders do not come in with a super dry, super hard, super shredded look.

From my observations, it seems that those who diet on keto come in sharper and harder than those who diet on carbs. At the same time, I think they have a tendency to come in flatter as well.

Those who diet on carbs tend to come in not quite as shredded, but significantly fuller and rounder.

Bodybuilding is about having the right balance between conditioning AND mass. If you're shredded, but flat as hell, you don't look impressive. I did Dave's generic recommendation for keto diet this year in prep for the NPC Maryland State. I came in much sharper and harder, but definately much flatter, than when I've dieted on carbs. (Some will say Dave could have fixed this by doing the last week's prep, and that's probably true to a degree.)

If you look at Dave's clients, I think they have an astoundingly high track record of coming in SUPER shredded and hard, MUCH leaner than those who diet on carbs, on average. But at the same time, they definately don't look QUITE as full. A really good example of this would be Jeff Long at Jr. Nationals this year. He came in WAY sharper than the previous year's Nationals, but his size, especially in the legs, was WAY down.

The problem is, it's really hard to differentiate between what exactly is fat, what is water, and what is muscle. Very few bodybuilders in the modern era come in SUPER shredded and dry. Those that do, seem to favor a ketogenic approach.

Keto seems to work best for those that already "have all of their size", like a Toney Freeman. He is older, his muscle is more mature, it's not going to "go anywhere". It was built from years of lifting, with higher capillary density and maturity, vs. somebody who does high carbs and builds more from a pump and fascial stretching. Thus for Toney, keto seems to work great.

It would be really interesting to compile a list of the bodybuilders who come in the most shredded nowadays and look at their diets. I'm thining specifically of: Flex Lewis, Eric Fankhouser, Paco Bautista (the dryest and freakiest of them all), Toney Freeman, Dexter Jackson (maybe not the best example, as his metabolism is SO freakish), and Kai Greene. I would love to see how each diets, and compare and contrast. I imagine you would find these individuals diet on lower carbs, or no carbs, but I'm not sure of that.

One notable exception from the past was Dorian, who supposedly dieted on high carbs (400g a day) and came in SUPER hard and dry. But he was also a mad scientist when it came to drug and dietary manipulation.

When we're talking about "what works", we're talking about what it most likely to pay off ON AVERAGE. Thus, I think the point is that for pretty much everybody out there, keto guarantees the greatest degree of fat loss, but it might be at the expense of losing muscle and appearing flat, which defeats the purpose of prepping for a show in the first place!

Separate the elements and the debate gets much clearer.

-lifepulse


Ive noticed that many people get shredded on keto but dont have the vascularity of the carb dieters.I wondered why and it dawned on me.Dave has his clients doing low reps and low cardio to not risk burning thru their low storage of carbs in muscle.By doing low reps and cardio for a few months the blood vessels will shrink and hence less vascular.

[Bigsteak]

Ive noticed that many people get shredded on keto but dont have the vascularity of the carb dieters.I wondered why and it dawned on me.Dave has his clients doing low reps and low cardio to not risk burning thru their low storage of carbs in muscle.By doing low reps and cardio for a few months the blood vessels will shrink and hence less vascular.
Have you seen Palumbo? That's one vascular mofo if you ask me!

[Futurefreak]

Not vascular on keto....BigSteak, go ahead bust out a pic of your Paul Dillet vascular delts. I have personally figured out what makes my vascularity MORE profound. Staying on a pro-inflammatory diet actually makes me even MORE vascular, whereas, If I up my fishoil and olive oil and enzymes etc...I flatten out and lose my thick vascularity. Of course a carb laden diet promotes great vascularity due to insulin increasing blood flow and that fact that insulin is also pro-inflammatory.

[Futurefreak]

Also, doing more cardio WILL NOT shrink the blood vessels, if anything, greater blood flow will be achieved and veins will be more present with cardio sessions.

[Bigsteak]

Also, doing more cardio WILL NOT shrink the blood vessels, if anything, greater blood flow will be achieved and veins will be more present with cardio sessions.
Agreed FF, vascularity is more of a genetic thing in my opinion. Obviously being in great shape will show off the vascular system but some people even in shape don't have profound vascularity. Also I find the older I get the more vascular I become.

[Wolfstriked]

I thought vascularity was from pumping more blood into muscles.I am not vascular at all and I do 4 to 6 reps all the time.I remember reading about a way to increase vascularity by using bands to constrict blood flow.I tried it around my forearm and the veins were popping and they never do.

[The Wolf]

Vascularity happens when you get rid of water and fat from under the skin. I did Big A's (FORMER IFFB PRO)diet which consits of carbs and I got in shape but lost muscle and was not that vascular. ı

[The Wolf]

Vascularity happens when you get rid of water and fat from under the skin. I did Big A's (FORMER IFFB PRO) diet which consits of carbs and I got in shape but lost muscle and was not that vascular. I did Daves diet and kept my muscle and got rid of a whole load of water despite the fact I was on high test and heavy androgens. You see I felt good as well, and I didnt even take arimadex and no "cutting steroids" like winny extra.

Which one do you think worked better for me? I could just take bulking drugs and come dry just with Daves diet. And after my once a week cheat meal, I was like a road atlas the next day! Well for my standards anyway.

[chucksm00th]

As far as carbs Vs Keto goes, either way you can get in shape for a contest, you will however have a drier look on Daves diet since you have no carbs thus you hold less water, however some people cant diet w/ carbs due to gastrointestinal issues or super sensitvity to insulin. I feel the Daves way wins, but its a personal choice to the individual doing it.

[chucksm00th]

Ive had vascularity on both type diets, carbs or No carbs, again its probably the individuals ability to react to the insulin...Think about it, Jay Cutler Eats 1000 carbs per day and hes fuckin shredded, kai Greene Also said he would NEVER go no carbs and he incredibly conditioned when he shows up on stage....Its not impossible either way it just dependant on the peson, some people react differenly.

[Frosty]

Okay how about once you get down into contest shape with Dave's diet, start upping reps, frequency, and volume and gradually adding in carbs PWO (rest of diet the same). You'll fill right back up and regain the fullness people miss in a matter of a couple weeks.

[chucksm00th]

Okay how about once you get down into contest shape with Dave's diet, start upping reps, frequency, and volume and gradually adding in carbs PWO (rest of diet the same). You'll fill right back up and regain the fullness people miss in a matter of a couple weeks.

I always keep reps in 6-8 range,otherwise i dont recruit enough fiber throughout my workout and if they arent stimulated i lose size since muscel size technically is inflamation.

True you will fill up and look more full but vascularity is still present. If the body fat level isnt low enough no diet carbs or keto such as daves will show vascularity.

I personally like the way i look with a little carbs in me PWO, you appear to look bigger, but if i have a show, then not till after because i tend to be neurotic when dieting.

[Frosty]

I always keep reps in 6-8 range,otherwise i dont recruit enough fiber throughout my workout and if they arent stimulated i lose size since muscel size technically is inflamation.

True you will fill up and look more full but vascularity is still present. If the body fat level isnt low enough no diet carbs or keto such as daves will show vascularity.

I personally like the way i look with a little carbs in me PWO, you appear to look bigger, but if i have a show, then not till after because i tend to be neurotic when dieting.

When I diet down I keep my reps in the 3-6 range and hit up my lifts 2x/week. This means squat on Monday, bench and row Tues, then the same sort of thing Thurs, Fri. This is what works for me, stuff like 10x3, 5x5, etc. So actually I wouldn't replace this with 3x12 or something.

What I would do was continue my normal workout, perhaps cut back the number of sets a bit so I always keep my heavy low reps. Then I would gradually start adding in sets of 10-15 after the main workout, and gradually adding in PWO carbs with it. That way after a couple weeks I'm doing a lot more volume which increases my carb requirements which forces my muscles to store more glycogen and fill me back up.

[chucksm00th]

When I diet down I keep my reps in the 3-6 range and hit up my lifts 2x/week. This means squat on Monday, bench and row Tues, then the same sort of thing Thurs, Fri. This is what works for me, stuff like 10x3, 5x5, etc. So actually I wouldn't replace this with 3x12 or something.

What I would do was continue my normal workout, perhaps cut back the number of sets a bit so I always keep my heavy low reps. Then I would gradually start adding in sets of 10-15 after the main workout, and gradually adding in PWO carbs with it. That way after a couple weeks I'm doing a lot more volume which increases my carb requirements which forces my muscles to store more glycogen and fill me back up.

I do basically the same but dont go as low with teh reps...ive found i have to increase carbs slowly over the course of weeks, otherwise i bloat up since ive become so Insulin sensitive from not eating carbs, again while adding higher rep sets like you do

[Frosty]

Yeah doing it slowly is the key. Just like it takes a couple weeks to adapt to the low carb diet, it takes weeks to start moving back towards more carbs.

I've never tried it but using a mild natural herbal diuretic like Aqualyze might help keep you dry while adding carbs back in. You can always keep up the cardio like before, which I'm sure would also help.

[lifepulse]

It would be really interesting to hear Dave answer this question:

Is it possible to get JUST AS shredded while eating carbs, as it is while doing a no-carb keto diet? In other words, if you had the time, the work ethic, etc., using simple calorie reduction and cardio methods, could the same individual get just as shredded, or is it impossible due to insulin issues?

I'm guessing he'd say the same individual could get just as shredded, given enough time. I think Dave's real point is about what works best ON AVERAGE, for MOST PEOPLE, given normal time limitations. But as has been noted, tons of bodybuilders get plenty ripped while still eating carbs, even natty guys (Layne Norton comes to mind). At the end of the day, there are multiple roads that work.

-lifepulse

[marcos chacon]

you dont have to forget diferent knid of metabolism in every person is diferent, one of my top guys a national spanish champ, i get him shredded eating up to 1kg boiled rice a day, and i have to be very carefull because he will loose weight if he consumes just 100 grs less one day, also he can carb up on mcdonalds day long all day and still get on stage ripped to shreds.

[chucksm00th]

It would be really interesting to hear Dave answer this question:

Is it possible to get JUST AS shredded while eating carbs, as it is while doing a no-carb keto diet? In other words, if you had the time, the work ethic, etc., using simple calorie reduction and cardio methods, could the same individual get just as shredded, or is it impossible due to insulin issues?

I'm guessing he'd say the same individual could get just as shredded, given enough time. I think Dave's real point is about what works best ON AVERAGE, for MOST PEOPLE, given normal time limitations. But as has been noted, tons of bodybuilders get plenty ripped while still eating carbs, even natty guys (Layne Norton comes to mind). At the end of the day, there are multiple roads that work.

-lifepulse


its all dependant on the individual..Both ways do work, not all bodybuilders do Protein/Fat diets and not all do Protein Carb diet...Some people excell on others better. Ive tried both and they both work, it tends to be easier on Daves for the reason there is less food prep and packaging

[Frosty]

you dont have to forget diferent knid of metabolism in every person is diferent, one of my top guys a national spanish champ, i get him shredded eating up to 1kg boiled rice a day, and i have to be very carefull because he will loose weight if he consumes just 100 grs less one day, also he can carb up on mcdonalds day long all day and still get on stage ripped to shreds.

Exactly. Who was the bodybuilder that would eat an entire carrot cake before bed for fear of losing size? You can look at a person's body type...there are guys with racing metabolisms that have to eat like crazy to get big (I think even Palumbo falls more into this category), then there are a lot of guys that have to be very careful of what they eat or they will gain fat quickly.

Probably MOST of your average gym guys fall into that last half, so Dave's diet would work best for them for cutting. But I, too, know guys that stay lean eating lots of carbs and diet down with plenty of carbs and look great. It's all about learning about your body and what works in the long run. I WISH I could eat carbs and get ripped, but it sadly isn't the case for me :D At least I love eating meat, so the Palumbo Diet is natural for me.

[Curt James]

wavelength, are you still out there? Post up your diet. The one used to achieve your appearance in your avatar. I've been using it and am definitely losing fat and maintaining strength.

[Tatyana]

In the studies I have read this is the typical results:

- in the short term, low carb diets result in more weight loss, however on average this is around 5 lbs

- in the long term (six months to a year), it doesn't make any difference

I think that you may also want to consider genetic polymorphisms and biochemical individuality.

You will have different nutritional requirements than the next person, you may be a sugar burner or a fat burner, and it doesn't appear that you can change this.

I have tried keto diets three times, they don't work very well for me in the long term. I have done blood work and my cholesterol went through the roof, rubbish HDL levels and my thyroid gland was suppressed after my last attempt.

It is too bad as I didn't feel as hungry, but that could have been the suppressed thyroid, and the high fat was great for my hair and skin.

Other than that, the fat loss was unimpressive for the amount of cardio and training I was doing, and the amount of time I dieted (close to four months, and yes, I did refeeds).

I find that cutting out on starchy carbs at night works well on non-training days, or carb tapering also with carb cycling.

[wavelength]

wavelength, are you still out there? Post up your diet. The one used to achieve your appearance in your avatar. I've been using it and am definitely losing fat and maintaining strength.

Oh well, I could post some food porn pics :D

In short: I drink whey and eat in a restaurant once a day, that's it.
Additionally, on Sundays it's pig-out.