Judging Bodybuiding...the Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[Baldiewonkanobi]

Hot topic here on RX and other other sites. To start this thread on a strong note I think for the most part judging at the various 'Natty', Independant and NPC/IFBB shows sucks. When the AAU was around it too sucked BIG TIME. I was there. I was a National Judge.

Who are the judges? Mostly men and some women. All unpaid volunteers. All serve at their own volition. Former physique athletes/competitors, officianados (nice word for groupies) and industry owners like gyms and small suppliment companies. Most organizations have strict guidelines as to judging with classes and certification models to participate in and/or qualify.

I will continue this topic shortly. I have a LOT to say.

Baldie

[Hammerfit]

Hot topic here on RX and other other sites. To start this thread on a strong note I think for the most part judging at the various 'Natty', Independant and NPC/IFBB shows sucks. When the AAU was around it too sucked BIG TIME. I was there. I was a National Judge.

Who are the judges? Mostly men and some women. All unpaid volunteers. All serve at their own volition. Former physique athletes/competitors, officianados (nice word for groupies) and industry owners like gyms and small suppliment companies. Most organizations have strict guidelines as to judging with classes and certification models to participate in and/or qualify.

I will continue this topic shortly. I have a LOT to say.

Baldie


What would be really cool? If some current judges would chime in on this topic as well.

Are NPC judges not compensated?

[Baldiewonkanobi]

Compensation for judges can come from the promoter. I have heard from zero to as high as $350. I may be wrong on this. The AAU had no cash compensation. It was the love of the sport. At the Oly level IFBB promoters most likely bump this up. Room, travel. bar tab and 'favors'. Access to lots of beautiful females and/or, lets be honest..... men. It is a mostly male flesh thing. The AAU had an imbalance of judges light in the loafers.

JUdges can be lazy. I will explain next time.


Baldie

[Baldiewonkanobi]

Daunted by hundreds of male/female physiques to judge I have seen and heard judges say "after the obvious first 2-3 the rest are a blur". So if your dream is to at least place in the top 5 its a crap shoot in many cases.

I have seen and heard 'man crushes'. I have heard comments on competitors buns and size of package.

More later....

Baldie

[Baldiewonkanobi]

Lighting and the eye. I agree that whether the lighting on stage is good or poor it casts the same on all competitors. What it can miss are the small nuances that differ between two or more men battling for top dog. Back in the Bill Pearl days the judges watched the backstage prep up close and personal. I like that myself.

I would like to see the judges introduced to the audience. We know the names and background sof the U.S. Supreme Court. I'd like to know who and what they are. Head Judge
Rick, owner of Detroit Power Source Gym. Judge 1. Anne, owner of Southside Fitness. Judge 2. Sam, sales rep for Mega Mega Suppliments. Judge 3. Marcus, retired IFBB Pro and trainer. Judge 4. Bobby, fitness photographer. Judge 5. Raymond, fitness industry consultant. Judge 6. Maynard, CPA and former NPC competitor. Judge 7. John, owner Pro Nutrition. Judge 8. Art, author and consultant in the fitness industry. Judge 9. Renel, former IFBB pro and trainer. They will be more accountable.

Now would not that be refreshing? Make them stand up, face the audience and nod. Instead they remain a secret cabal only known by the insiders. I had the opportunity to lunch once in Las Vegas with a large table of IFBB peeps and judges during a break. Scary what they did not know about physique. The few that did were obviously controlling most of the others ballots. "Go with the flow".

The Olympia judges get it done best. The Masters Olympia this year after placing 1/2/maybe 3 was a disaster. Men with moutain gorilla bellies and/or weak body parts were being placed in positions 3-10 ahead of men arguably in the top 3. Here is the rub.

Judges are for the most part lazy. Not all....mostly. At the Masters Oly 1st and 2nd were obvious. There down the judges must have been thinking about what to order for dinner while in South Beach.

After the fact judges can be found for for comments. Trust me. There you are in your full neck to toe sweats asking a judge what you needed to score better next time. 9 times out of 10 he/she does not remember you in your posing suit on stage. Never the less he will give you a vanilla reply.

Judges think they are 'special'. They do hold a lot of power. I would prefer they hold a lot of responsibility.

I spent over $30,000 competing in National shows in the east where 75% of the judges were brought in from close by. I being from Ca/Az was foolish. I was always 2nd place to a 'local'. Spilt milk....maybe. Except for the two times I ran into the winner didning with a few judges later that night.

Love them, hate them, fear them, we need our judges. We need to make them somehow real and accountable.

Baldie

[Baldiewonkanobi]

"didning"
Thats DINING not diddling.

Baldie

[Waylon]

They do that at the Arizona shows, they have the judges stand up in front of the audience and say if you have any disapproval they will pull the judge from your category no matter what, Yet I think sometimes Arizona shows have some shittiest judging around (Case in point the July show this summer where Scott Turner didn't win the overall a week before getting his pro card at USA)

[swingslammer]

In 30+ years I have never asked a judge what I needed to "Fix", if you don't know what your flaws are......you are kidding yourself!

P.s. my most often flaw is/was conditioning.

[Baldiewonkanobi]

Sadly I have only attended one Az show and it was the Pro show some 14 mo ago. So you can pull a judge. Would an example be "I saw him training with one of the competitors just the other day"? Or, "She has a sister in the show"?

Baldie

[Baldiewonkanobi]

At the NPC Masters Nationals they line up after the show seeking out judges. I have been even assaulted by a wife after a show that I head judged. The female judge on the panel had to pull her off. I had her husband second (she had no way of seeing the score cards at this point) because sadly he had one deformed shorter arm. The winner was flawless.

BTW the AAU did publish the score cards after 30 days. When I took 2nd in the Mr. California I had 5 firsts and 4 5ths. The Winner had 4 firsts and 5 seconds. I protested and the promoter lost his certification. The winner, promoter and the 4 judges scoring me 5th were all from the same gym.

Baldie

[HeavyDutyGuy]

Very insightful thread. Mike, I think that poster that goes by "Howard" is an NPC JUDGE. Or he was. He is disenchanted with the direction the competitive bodies have taken. Baldie, so what justification did they offer for such disparate scores?

[hifrommike65]

Subjectivity is a problem with any scored sport. Remember the scandal several years back with Olympic ice dancing, & the Russians trying to bias the scores? As far as the shows I have attended go, I have seen judging that I agreed with & judging I didn't agree with. However, I am not a trained judge, & experienced judges look for very specific things & are better placed in the auditorium than I am. True, bias sometimes creeps in. I have seen competitors ignored because of things that had nothing to do with their merits as bodybuilders (in the worst example of it, the competitor wasn't even mentioned or ranked although he was onstage). However, it is the exception, & in general judging panels do a pretty good job. A better job, in fact, than some competitors who don't show up at their best & then scream bias.

One time at the Masters Nats I sat behind a competitor I was afraid would storm the judging panel. He had flown in from California, & he was in very good shape. However, he didn't strike me as the winner of his class. Arguably 2nd. He got 3rd. When he came out from backstage & sat down in the seat in front of me, his friends kept telling him "you got screwed!" & he was clearly upset. He finally grabbed his gym bag & left the auditorium. I didn't think his friends were fair to him, nor to the judges.

[Baldiewonkanobi]

HFM I agree about the competitors not showing up in their best possible shape no matter the show. Another good topic.

James a perfect score would be a 9. 4 x 1 = 4, and 5 x 2 = 10. Total 14. I had 5 x 1 = 5, and
4 x 5 = 20. Total 25. Like I said the 4 judges who gave me 5th, promoter and winner all trained at the same gym. They were friends.

Story has a sorta happy ending. The fellow who won the Mr. Cal show took his class the following week at the NPC Masters Nationals. On a roll a week later we met up again at the Mr. USA in Atlantic City.

He and I were California boys and felt unwelcomed by the 9 east coast judges. They set us together at pre judging on the call outs/comparrisons. I weighed in at about 203 and he about 220 in the Tall class. The back stage dude told us that night that the judges were going to set us down because we looked 'too Steroid' for the AAU. First thru fourth were skinny ass 170 pound wrinkly geezers with 6 packs. I got 5th and the NPC Nationals winner did NOT PLACE. Highway fucking robbery. We in either order were clearly 1-2. Boos were thru out Trump Plaza that night.

I was so pissed I became a judge on a mission of honesty and accuracy. When I was on a panel the others knew I was watching and listening.


Baldie

[GerryT]

Obviously an inflammatory topic because of the nature of the sport. Performance in bodybuilding cannot be quantitatively measured like powerlifting or track races, which results are impervious to debate.Baldie raises some interesting and valid points. I have attended myriad shows over the years where I thought the judging was fair and accurate, and others for which I disagreed with the results. No that those shows were not well judged, just that I did not agree with all the placings. My opinion is speculative and far from absolute.I have only judged one show for an organiaztion outside NPC, for which I was compensated $50.00. I feel that I judged to the best of my ability. I was asked to judge a 2nd show, but withdrew because I personally knew one of the competitors and gave some posing advice to another competitor. My decision to withdraw had nothing to do with my lack of confidence to be impartial, but I did not want even the appearance of impropriety to exist. I have seen shows where I thought there was conflict of interest, i.e. a judge training one of the competitors or training at the judge's gym, etc. That in my opinion should not be.Competitors get on stage in posing trunks, not diapers. The know the nature of the sport and judging going in. So if they pay the entry fee and agree to compete, they also have to accept the judging as it is and be bound by it. True, there is no real accountability and decisions are not reversed later on (unless in a tested show, a competitor fails a substance test). I have not agreed with all the decisions made at shows, including a few involving friends. But I advised them to be good sports, put it behind and move on if they intend to continue competitive bodybuilding.Judging is what it is, and do not see it changing.

[Baldiewonkanobi]

Not a more valid observation than from Gerry. This man knows our sport inside and out.

Thanks Gerry.

Unfortunatly I come from mainly a competitors viewpoint with some gawd awful antecdotal experiences emitting from the judges table. I do temper that with having judged some 30+ shows from the table. Unfortunatly my jaded opinions did not taper from being a judge, they solidified.

Baldie

[Hammerfit]

Thanks Gerry for chiming in.That's exactly what we wanted to hear..the judges vantage point of view. You and Bill have brought forth some interesting views from both sides of the table.

I remember back my first show which naturally didnt agree with. Then when I went back after I had calmed down and looked at the comparisons, I saw what they were looking at and I was wow I got alot to learn.

Now I just dont get so wrapped up in the results its more of the getting there thats important. The way our sport is setup you have to not get wound up or you will drive yourself nuts.

The weird placings of the larger shows maybe what someone else mentioned...their looking at the winner when they first come out then decide who placed 2nd or 3rd, after that it's no so important.....at least in somones eyes.

[Baldiewonkanobi]

The weird placings of the larger shows maybe what someone else mentioned...their looking at the winner when they first come out then decide who placed 2nd or 3rd, after that it's no so important.....at least in somones eyes.

So true. I also noticed from the table viewpoint that most of the judges scored the initial walkout/turns 1-5 then put their pencils down. Comparrisons and mandantories rarely changed their placings. I have sat at boo coo NPC/IFBB shows right behind the judges and see the same damn thing.

Baldie

[hifrommike65]

I recall Frank Zane saying the judges didn't even look at him at the 1980 Olympia in Australia, & he was the reigning Mr. O going into the show. He said they looked only at Arnold.

As far as getting screwed vs. getting a break go, I suspect that they both happen often enough that they tend to balance out in the end. & if someone doesn't want to be judged, he shouldn't be onstage.

[Baldiewonkanobi]

HFM If you only competed lets just say twice a year for a 5 year run. Odds are judging would be close to spot on 50% of the time. You would be lucky 25% of the time and screwed 25%. Antecdotaly if that were true from where I stood on stage or sat at the judging table I would not have started this thread.

Conclusion then would be "If you see it that way Baldie then step off the stage." I have.

Now for my friends who seek the golden ring.....I can only wish that the lobbys from the suppliment companies, mags and web sites would stay away from the judges table. Judges were annualy tested by their organization. Score cards scrutinized. Lose credentials if obvious bias noted. On National shows, regionaly diversified.

Baldie

[hifrommike65]

I am concerned about my evaluations (not onstage but on the job), but not overly. When I ask for feedback, it's often contradictory. One student says "you're doing fine" & the person behind her says "you're awful." So who do I believe? You have to do the best you can, & let the chips fall where they may. Pick your spots & go with them. &, as Arnold always said, STAY HUNGRY.

[masterschamp]

HFM If you only competed lets just say twice a year for a 5 year run. Odds are judging would be close to spot on 50% of the time. You would be lucky 25% of the time and screwed 25%. Antecdotaly if that were true from where I stood on stage or sat at the judging table I would not have started this thread.

Conclusion then would be "If you see it that way Baldie then step off the stage." I have.

Now for my friends who seek the golden ring.....I can only wish that the lobbys from the suppliment companies, mags and web sites would stay away from the judges table. Judges were annualy tested by their organization. Score cards scrutinized. Lose credentials if obvious bias noted. On National shows, regionaly diversified.

Baldie


I have really enjoyed your input on this topic, Bill.

Keith