How do you get a rookie trainee to "feel" their back when training?

[Yolo]

A friend of mine recently asked me to train her, and I'm currently debating whether or not to give her lifting hooks from the get-go, and basically take the grip out of the ecuation, or just have her do regular grip and wait for her to start having that mind-muscle connection in due course:confused:

Also, which exercises do you feel are the best to make someone "feel" their back work?

Thanks for your help

[Gerb]

Start her out at a higher rep range like 12-15. For "feeling the lats", I think two good exercises for feeling the contractions are wide pulldowns to the front and close grip seated cable rows with a v type handle. Neither exercise is too tough to master and both hit the lats differently but will give a good pump.

My wife uses http://www.versagripps.com/ on her back exercises and loves them. She has used them since day one and has a great wide back.

[Yolo]

Start her out at a higher rep range like 12-15. For "feeling the lats", I think two good exercises for feeling the contractions are wide pulldowns to the front and close grip seated cable rows with a v type handle. Neither exercise is too tough to master and both hit the lats differently but will give a good pump.

My wife uses http://www.versagripps.com/ on her back exercises and loves them. She has used them since day one and has a great wide back.

I was thinking along the same lines. Alas, versagripps aren't available where I'm at (it took me about 6 months to track down a gym where I could by straps lol). Thanks for your help!

[Gerb]

Where are you? You can order them online.

[Yolo]

Romania, bro. Even if they did ship here (which I doubt), shipping would cost double the price of the grips:D

[militantmuscle]

Perform one-arm seated cable rows with a d-link handle, start with a neutral grip than finish by supinating.

The thing with back is range of motion, not so much reps or exercises. The muscles of the back do not fully activate until the near the end of the repetition of a typical back exercise, most lifters do not get to that point because weight is too heavy.

Lighten the weight and achieve full range of motion. One handed exercises will assist in performing a greater range of motion.

[Yolo]

Perform one-arm seated cable rows with a d-link handle, start with a neutral grip than finish by supinating.

The thing with back is range of motion, not so much reps or exercises. The muscles of the back do not fully activate until the near the end of the repetition of a typical back exercise, most lifters do not get to that point because weight is too heavy.

Lighten the weight and achieve full range of motion. One handed exercises will assist in performing a greater range of motion.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks man:bowdown:

[Sledge]

If she's just starting she shouldn't need hooks. She shouldn't be lifting heavy enough for grip to fail. Keep her lighter weights and concentrate on near perfect form and alow her body to adapt to the new stresses for at least 3 months before she realy starts to push to failure. Her muscles will adapt to the new training pretty quickly but her tendons and ligaments and CNS will take longer to adapt so she''ll be more prone to injury. Concentrate on the physical movements and the mind muscle connection and her ability to overcome mental failure before physical failure will come with time.
This is the time for quite a lot of frustration for a new trainee so slowly and gently is the key to let the significant breakthroughs overtake the frustraiting monents.

Training a new trainee is fantasticaly rewarding for a trainer a new breakthrough happens almost weekly and their is nothing better than watching someone you train suddenly "get it".

[Yolo]

If she's just starting she shouldn't need hooks. She shouldn't be lifting heavy enough for grip to fail. Keep her lighter weights and concentrate on near perfect form and alow her body to adapt to the new stresses for at least 3 months before she realy starts to push to failure. Her muscles will adapt to the new training pretty quickly but her tendons and ligaments and CNS will take longer to adapt so she''ll be more prone to injury. Concentrate on the physical movements and the mind muscle connection and her ability to overcome mental failure before physical failure will come with time.
This is the time for quite a lot of frustration for a new trainee so slowly and gently is the key to let the significant breakthroughs overtake the frustraiting monents.

Training a new trainee is fantasticaly rewarding for a trainer a new breakthrough happens almost weekly and their is nothing better than watching someone you train suddenly "get it".

Very well put! The reason i thought about hooks/straps was to allow her to focus exclusively on the movement per se and not about holding unto the weight (which will obviously be very light). Thanks bro!

[Sledge]

And for an exercise to feel back try strict form T-Bar rows. Especially if they have one of those weird looking T-bar row machines you lay on. Slow full contraction movement

[Yolo]

And for an exercise to feel back try strict form T-Bar rows. Especially if they have one of those weird looking T-bar row machines you lay on. Slow full contraction movement

Yeah, I know that machine.. Funny thing is I've always hated it...

[Diabetic Muscle]

Depends how good of friends you are with her but putting light pressure on the area of the back she should be working. Sounds strange but worked really well for me.

[Yolo]

Depends how good of friends you are with her but putting light pressure on the area of the back she should be working. Sounds strange but worked really well for me.

I've heard other people advocate this, particularly when it comes to the pullup. I've never tried it though but it's worth a shot. Thanks.

[brolic1]

Totally agree with SLegde. Grip strength is very important I wouldnt take that away from someone. See how she progresses then introduce them later. Hypers are great for 'feeling' your back and of course deadlifts. You could start her easy with SLDs with DBs or just the BB. I wish I saw more girls doing deads.

[Yolo]

I wish I saw more girls doing deads.

I, too, would like to see more of that, albeit for slightly different reasons *wink wink*. On a more searious note, I think it's too early on for deadlifts, particularly since she'e a "she" lol. Whenever I've tried teaching some of my male friends to deadlift, it frustrated me to tears; they just didn't get it. I'd show them, explain it to them, but whenever I'd have them do it, they'd bend at the waist and round their lower back like you wouldn't believe.

All in all, I think I'll keep deads for later on. I appreciate the input, though:wavey:

[ChunkyThunder]

Aside from all of this stuff, try telling her to concentrate on holding the weight and pulling back from elbows instead of from her hands. That's how I finally got it.

[Yolo]

Aside from all of this stuff, try telling her to concentrate on holding the weight and pulling back from elbows instead of from her hands. That's how I finally got it.

Whenever I told people (particularly rank beginners) to pull from their elbows rather than from their hands, I always get a stare to the effect of "wtf??? U crazy man? what do you mean not pull from the hands??" so I think I'll keep this lesson for a later date. Nevertheless, this was valuable advice. Thanks:)

[ChunkyThunder]

No problem, when he get's a better understanding of his mind muscle connection he will grasp that statement

[Ninja Loco]

I have two clients like that, both female. Here's what i did.

First I explained the mind/muscle connection and the importance of feeling it throughout the exercise.

Then I selected all single arm exercises for them

I then had them perform one exercise and asked where they felt it.

Then I performed them myself and asked them, professionally of course, to touch the muscle I was working. This really did give them a visual because they then noticed that they pulled with their rear delts and biceps while thinking it was still stimulating the back.

Then I had them perform the exercise with a full ROM and placed my hand on their back with their permission. Of course the first couple or three reps it wasnt there, but now that they knew what to look for, they started adjusting whatever they had to because eventually they did feel it. And I know they did because I also felt the target muscle starting to be flexed.



It's the best way Ive ever found of getting someone to feel an exercise in the target muscle. It's even worked with some more experienced people.

[lilfella]

Unless they have an injury or back problems it is never too early for deadlifting. My .02

[Yolo]

I have two clients like that, both female. Here's what i did.

First I explained the mind/muscle connection and the importance of feeling it throughout the exercise.

Then I selected all single arm exercises for them

I then had them perform one exercise and asked where they felt it.

Then I performed them myself and asked them, professionally of course, to touch the muscle I was working. This really did give them a visual because they then noticed that they pulled with their rear delts and biceps while thinking it was still stimulating the back.

Then I had them perform the exercise with a full ROM and placed my hand on their back with their permission. Of course the first couple or three reps it wasnt there, but now that they knew what to look for, they started adjusting whatever they had to because eventually they did feel it. And I know they did because I also felt the target muscle starting to be flexed.



It's the best way Ive ever found of getting someone to feel an exercise in the target muscle. It's even worked with some more experienced people.

Thanks man. Greatly appreciated!

[Yolo]

Unless they have an injury or back problems it is never too early for deadlifting. My .02

For the most part, I completely agree with you. However, bear in mind that this is a female trainee we're talking about, who doesn't appreciate the thrill of pulling a heavy weight and thinks that doing 1000s of situps is how you get rid of abdominal fat. With this in mind, I don't think it would be wise to start deadlifting right off the bat...

[dropshot001]

For the most part, I completely agree with you. However, bear in mind that this is a female trainee we're talking about, who doesn't appreciate the thrill of pulling a heavy weight and thinks that doing 1000s of situps is how you get rid of abdominal fat. With this in mind, I don't think it would be wise to start deadlifting right off the bat...

but perpetuating a myth won't allow her to make the gains that she wants (assuming that she wants to see results instead of just feeling like she is doing something by working out).

[Yolo]

but perpetuating a myth won't allow her to make the gains that she wants (assuming that she wants to see results instead of just feeling like she is doing something by working out).

Nobody said anything about perpetuating a myth, what I meant is that, initially, if we can astablish that there is no such thing as spot reduction then we've made a huge step forward. I just feel that deadlifts would be overkill at this point

[Ninja Loco]

For the most part, I completely agree with you. However, bear in mind that this is a female trainee we're talking about, who doesn't appreciate the thrill of pulling a heavy weight and thinks that doing 1000s of situps is how you get rid of abdominal fat. With this in mind, I don't think it would be wise to start deadlifting right off the bat...I dont mean to tell you how to do your job, bro, but we all have those kind of clients. I get them all the time and my first order of business is to get rid of that notion by giving them a 101 on how the human body works or I just dont work with them. Yes, even in this economy I have to turn people like that away. The way I see it, they come to me for my expertise and because they see what I have done with others. The last thing I need is a client trying to dictate to me how SHE is going to work out and risk my reputation by getting slower results than I know I can deliver. This may not be the case with you and that client, but if it is, my advice is you need to nip it in the bud. Plenty of my females didnt want to do weights and now they see it differently. I have a client thats close to 300 pound and did NOT want to do weights at all. 5 weeks later and a 16 pound weight loss with increased energy and strength she learned to just have faith in me. Yeah, even did rack deads and is now moving on to sumo uprights. She needs to have faith in you, bro.

[Yolo]

I dont mean to tell you how to do your job, bro, but we all have those kind of clients. I get them all the time and my first order of business is to get rid of that notion by giving them a 101 on how the human body works or I just dont work with them. Yes, even in this economy I have to turn people like that away. The way I see it, they come to me for my expertise and because they see what I have done with others. The last thing I need is a client trying to dictate to me how SHE is going to work out and risk my reputation by getting slower results than I know I can deliver. This may not be the case with you and that client, but if it is, my advice is you need to nip it in the bud. Plenty of my females didnt want to do weights and now they see it differently. I have a client thats close to 300 pound and did NOT want to do weights at all. 5 weeks later and a 16 pound weight loss with increased energy and strength she learned to just have faith in me. Yeah, even did rack deads and is now moving on to sumo uprights. She needs to have faith in you, bro.

I agree with you 1000%. I'll definetly take the time to explain to her what's what but what I wouldn't want to do is have her do a great deal of exercises she doesn't like to the extent that she'll end up dreading the next workout. I'm looking for an initial response which will get her hooked and progressing from there. Basically, I'd like to teach her to drive one gear at a time, rather than jumping straight to 5th (ok, bad analogy lol)

Also, the situation is a bit different in that she's not a client per se (and I'm not a trainer although I'd love to be one), she's a friend who came to me with this request and I truly want to help her out but again, I can totally understand where you're coming from

[Ninja Loco]

I agree with you 1000%. I'll definetly take the time to explain to her what's what but what I wouldn't want to do is have her do a great deal of exercises she doesn't like to the extent that she'll end up dreading the next workout. I'm looking for an initial response which will get her hooked and progressing from there. Basically, I'd like to teach her to drive one gear at a time, rather than jumping straight to 5th (ok, bad analogy lol)

Also, the situation is a bit different in that she's not a client per se (and I'm not a trainer although I'd love to be one), she's a friend who came to me with this request and I truly want to help her out but again, I can totally understand where you're coming from
Ah I see. Well then let me elaborate a tad further. Of course this is all condensed, but Im sure you'll get the gist.

Said person comes to me saying they want to do this that and the other. They dont want to lift weights because of yada yada yada. Some other trainer told her that XXX..... a friend that works out told her that XXXXX.

You get the picture.

Ok. first order of business is a sit down and an explanation of how the body works and how diet is responsible for fat loss around the middle, not a million sit ups, starvation diets and endless cardio. I explain how WE are going to boost her metabolism and how muscle (either retained or gained) is necessary for a faster metabolism. Of course then she states various concerns about looking like a female bodybuilder. I then explain how her body has a genetic limit, how the female bodybuilders lift ten times more weight than she will be lifting and so on and so on and so on. This asuages her fears, especially the part about the no starvation diet.

It is then that MY personal experience with various protocols, from HIT to Volume to P/RR/S to X-rep and Cross fit and so on and so on and so on to make a FUN workout for said person, which is usually peppered with something I know they like, plus what I knwo they need. I always give credit to the founders, I take none of the credit for myself. This shows honesty, and that what you are about to do has a long background, not just something you dreamed up, which establishes more trust. Once I have the routine down, I explain everything relevant. I share with them everything that is going to transpire and why and how it will effect the total outcome.

But you're absolutely right about driving on one gear at a time. I have one girl who positively loathes weights and would never give me 100%. That's ok, I had a plan. She is a former dancer and loves cardio and anything fast paced and by the numbers. Plus she's a single mom and very independant. Ok, cool. I made a cross fit style weight workout with the bare essential minimal exercises and then said "guess what? Im going to teach you how to fight, how to defend yourself". Can you imagine how she took that? So her cardio portion is a mix of muay thai, boxing, and various MMA conditioning drills enforcing the correct techniques and stances. She loves it, it's her favorite part of the program even though it royaly kicks her ass. It's a form of dance to her.... and she takes it so seriously that she will even stop herself in the middle of a drill if she feels her form or technique is is off.

So what about the weights? Oh she likes them now. Why? Because I kept a log and showed her each and every week how much che progressed. I'd keep an eye on her to see when she was ready to take it up a notch and then didnt tell her until it happened. Case in point: last week she went up a whole 90 pounds on the leg press and still got more reps out, only I didnt tell her until she finished. The girl who didnt like weights at all is now positively beaming with pride over her strength. Yeah it took a while.... but we got there.


So.... she had to do exercises that she wasnt overly fond of. It was up to me to find a way for her to not dislike them so much. Anyone can do it, even if they have to ask for help. Ive been fortunate enough to be around peeps that knew whats what: Razor Ripped, John Romano, Eric Broser, Dave Palumbo, Layne Norton, and various other good bros and all the females here who are also trainers. All of them have helped me either personaly or by reading their journals.

[Yolo]

Anyone can do it, even if they have to ask for help. Ive been fortunate enough to be around peeps that knew whats what: Razor Ripped, John Romano, Eric Broser, Dave Palumbo, Layne Norton, and various other good bros and all the females here who are also trainers. All of them have helped me either personaly or by reading their journals.

...and, in turn, I am fortunate enough to have someone of your expertise help me out. Thank you very much!!!!!:bowdown::bowdown:

[lilfella]

great post ninja. I would say something about basic freeweight exercises or something like that but I think you covered it. I start my anti-weight female clients with one of those girly padded about 20lb bars. This seems to take the edge off at first.

[Ninja Loco]

You guys honor me too much. The ones I learned from are all around us as we speak. I can take no credit.


One thing Ive learned that they like is when I combine exercises to make one, then I put it on a time basis instead of just reps. This makes it more cardiovascular than just plain freeweight exercise TO THEM. For instance i have one that is a combination of pullover and sit up. When they get god enough with those two moves in one, i add a stand and press. They love shit like that, and if you can keep the intensity right yes they will lose weight and "tone up". LOL, Im probaly the only trainer that likes to hear them say that shit.

[Yolo]

Nah, bro. The fact that you take the time to answer questions from n00bs like myself is, in the very least, worthy of praise:wavey:

[Ninja Loco]

They took, and still take, the time for me, so I follow their example and give back. We're all here to help each other, we're a different breed after all. :)

[lilfella]

The trick is to show them progression. Females seem to like numbers. Males want guns. lol

[Yolo]

The trick is to show them progression. Females seem to like numbers. Males want guns. lol

HAHAHA Amen to that

[gman]

Get her to do a 1 arm row with a db weighing more than she thinks she can handle. She will have no choice except to pull with her lats. I scream inside when I see women doing 1 arm rows with a 10lb db. It's doing absolutely nothing.

[JYD]

i tell newbies to do light pulldowns and show them how to pose in between... i think teaching them to pose muscles they can see in the mirror first gives them a starting point so they are familiar w/ the concept... then switch to hams then back

[Yolo]

Get her to do a 1 arm row with a db weighing more than she thinks she can handle. She will have no choice except to pull with her lats. I scream inside when I see women doing 1 arm rows with a 10lb db. It's doing absolutely nothing.

Agreed

[Yolo]

i tell newbies to do light pulldowns and show them how to pose in between... i think teaching them to pose muscles they can see in the mirror first gives them a starting point so they are familiar w/ the concept... then switch to hams then back

I can see how that might help with mind-muscle connection. It's worth a shot. Thanks