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Dr Pangloss
06-26-2009, 04:23 PM
anyone do this? many many papers show this is effective for endurance. I've been doing it because the guy i'm training legs with is a cardio beast.

I use 0.3 g per kg bodyweight taken in water about 1 hour before. It's awful. You may want to throw up, but it works like a charm.

Anyone else?

Dr Pangloss
06-26-2009, 04:26 PM
this also costs about a buck fifty per pound; much cheaper than beta alanine, and more effective i think.

Frosty
06-27-2009, 12:38 AM
I always had a problem with it causing digestive issues. I guess I have a hard time training on a truly empty stomach because I'd start burping up the taste of the last meal when I tried this pre-workout. So yeah, using it never worked out because of this for me at least.

Dr Pangloss
06-27-2009, 01:00 PM
I always had a problem with it causing digestive issues. I guess I have a hard time training on a truly empty stomach because I'd start burping up the taste of the last meal when I tried this pre-workout. So yeah, using it never worked out because of this for me at least.

yeah. it's obnoxious shit. that's why people doont do it.


I would most definitely do it every time if i were fighting or something like that.

TPT
06-27-2009, 11:13 PM
yeah. it's obnoxious shit. that's why people doont do it.


I would most definitely do it every time if i were fighting or something like that.



possibly distributing 3-4 small doses would lessen the gi distress.

here is the readers digest on bicarb loading for rx members.
http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/pdfhandler.00126548-200810000-00006.pdf;jsessionid=KGLLJlRGk6BmrKJndjw2hGvGl0Hxx VJ87mJVM1cYF3SQVjlQxYg1!-847254088!181195628!8091!-1

Dr Pangloss
06-28-2009, 08:36 AM
nice paper post brother, but it's now asking for a login.


if you post the bib info i will try and grab it and repost.

-BLP-
06-28-2009, 09:12 AM
i try.. taste too much like crap never again did not like beta alanine either i dont know neurotransmittor compounds seem to me give more endurance. it's all in the psyche to me

Dr Pangloss
06-28-2009, 09:25 AM
i try.. taste too much like crap never again did not like beta alanine either i dont know neurotransmittor compounds seem to me give more endurance. it's all in the psyche to me


beta alanine and sodium bicarb work by increasing blood ph. the only neurotransmitter-like compounds that will increase endurance are things like amphetamine.

TPT
06-28-2009, 11:27 AM
nice paper post brother, but it's now asking for a login.


if you post the bib info i will try and grab it and repost.


thanks for letting me know. here it is.




Using Supplementation Legally to Enhance Performance.
COLUMNS
Strength & Conditioning Journal. 30(5):39-40, October 2008.
Riewald, Scott PhD, CSCS, NSCA-CPT

Abstract:
SUMMARY: WITH ALL OF THE PUBLICITY ILLEGAL PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS HAVE RECEIVED OF LATE, IT SOMETIME IS FORGOTTEN THAT THERE ARE LEGAL SUPPLEMENTS AVAILABLE THAT CAN HELP ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE. THIS COLUMN SUMMARIZES A REVIEW/COMMENTARY ON BUFFERING WITH SODIUM BICARBONATE OR SODIUM CITRATE AND HOW IT CAN BE USED TO ENHANCE PERFORMANCE.
(C) 2008 National Strength and Conditioning Association
Scott Riewald, PhD, CSCS, NSCA-CPT
Column Editor
USING SUPPLEMENTATION LEGALLY TO ENHANCE PERFORMANCE TOP (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#top)


The news these days is full of stories and feature articles on athletes who have used illegal performance enhancing drugs to boost performance and gain an advantage over their competitors. Athletes are looking for any way to get that extra boost in performance, and the use of prohibited ergogenic aids has infiltrated virtually every level of sport, from developmental/age group programs to the Olympics. However, not all types of supplementation are prohibited, and a quick review of the literature shows there are several legal supplements, when taken appropriately, that offer the potential to enhance training and competitive performance. For example, athletes have used sodium bicarbonate and/or sodium citrate for years to improve the body's buffering capacity, allowing them to engage in longer bouts of high-intensity exercise before the onset of fatigue. A number of research studies conducted on sodium bicarbonate and, alternatively, sodium citrate, also has substantiated their effectiveness. Recently in the International Journal of Sports Physiology and Performance, Burke and Pyne (1 (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#P34)) provided a commentary on how these supplements have been, and can be, used to improve athletic performance in competition as well as in practice.
THE PHYSIOLOGY BEHIND BUFFERING TOP (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#top) High-intensity activities rely primarily on anaerobic pathways, including anaerobic glycolysis, to provide the energy for working muscles. One result of using this energy system is the buildup of lactic acid and an increase in the hydrogen ion concentration in the working muscles. Although a direct link between these variables and muscle fatigue is debatable, the buildup of lactic acid and the increase in hydrogen ion concentration do contribute to metabolic acidosis; a decrease in intramuscular pH. This decrease is thought to negatively impact the force-generating characteristics of muscles and, directly or indirectly, influence the onset of muscle fatigue. Decreased pH has also been shown to adversely impact other physiological and/or metabolic functions within muscle, including enzymatic activity, impair calcium release, inhibit interaction between actin and myosin, as well as inhibit oxidative phosphorylation.
Accordingly, the principle goals of bicarbonate loading (the term bicarbonate loading is used here to include the use of sodium bicarbonate or sodium citrate) are to (a) increase the extracellular pH and improve the body's buffering capacity, allowing the working muscles to more readily deal with the excess hydrogen ions that are produced through anaerobic glycolysis, and (b) reduce the negative impact pH changes have on the physiologic functions necessary for optimal muscle function. As buffering capacity is improved, performance could be impacted through either of the following mechanisms: Delaying the onset of muscle fatigue within a competition/event and producing a shift towards anaerobic metabolism, allowing an athlete to perform at a high intensity for a longer period of time; or improving the quality of training, allowing athletes to seemingly improve more rapidly than those not using bicarbonate loading. This, in turn, would also impact performance in competition as well.
<H2 id=hd2-3 class=ptDocHeading>GUIDELINES: WHAT THE RESEARCH SHOWS US TOP (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#top)


The article outlines 3 distinct methods for using bicarbonate loading to enhance performance: acute loading, serial loading, and chronic loading.
ACUTE LOADING TOP (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#top)


Acute loading typically is used to prepare for an individual race/event and is beneficial for events during which high levels of lactate/hydrogen ions are produced and fatigue is an issue. It involves consuming a set amount of sodium bicarbonate (usually 0.3 g/kg body mass [BM]) or sodium citrate (typically 0.3-0.5 g/kg BM) with water in powder or capsule form. This dose is usually administered between 60 and 90 minutes before a competition. Many athletes find it beneficial to distribute this over 3-4 small doses as opposed to consuming the entire volume at once.
SERIAL LOADING TOP (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#top) Serial loading can be used to prepare for a competition that involves multiple races a day and involves consuming the buffer in smaller doses spread across the several days preceding the competition. In this protocol, 0.3-0.5 g/kg BM of sodium bicarbonate is taken per day (split into 3-4 smaller doses) for 3-5 days leading up to the competition. This method builds up blood buffer levels that can persist for as long as 24 hours, allowing supplementation to stop the day before the competition, if desired.
<H2 id=hd2-6 class=ptDocHeading>CHRONIC LOADING TOP (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#top) Chronic loading is a newer supplementation technique and is used to support high-intensity training. Ingestion of 0.4 g/kg BM of sodium bicarbonate, taken 3 days per week for 8 weeks, led to greater improvements in lactate threshold (26% vs. 15%) and time to exhaustion when compared with a placebo in moderately trained athletes. The improvements were speculated to occur from the increased level of intensity the athletes could sustain during training because of the improved buffering capacity.
<H2 id=hd2-7 class=ptDocHeading>THE DOWNSIDES TOP (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#top)


Unfortunately, bicarbonate loading is not a slam-dunk success with all athletes, and some experience severe gastrointestinal distress-something that is not welcome at any time, let alone in the midst of an important competition. Athletes using sodium citrate tend to report fewer complications. There are also responders and nonresponders-those who reap a benefit and those who don't. Regardless of loading scheme that is used, it is always a good idea to try things out before you get to your major competition.
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS TOP (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#top) As noted by the authors of this article, there are still a number of unanswered questions and unknowns when it comes to bicarbonate loading, including such topics as: How the impact is affected by food and fluid consumption; the interaction with other legal supplements like caffeine or creatine; and individualization of loading, including the amounts, number of doses, and timing needed to achieve the optimal results.
All of these questions need to be answered to truly elucidate the methodology behind bicarbonate loading, but there seems to be some promise for using these techniques to enhance training and athletic performance in high-intensity activities.
<H2 id=hd2-9 class=ptDocHeading>REFERENCES TOP (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#top)


1. Burke LM and Pyne DB. Bicarbonate loading to enhance training and competitive performance. Int J Sports Physiol Performance 2: 93-97, 2007. [Context Link] (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#P16)



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TPT
06-28-2009, 11:35 AM
Strength and Conditioning Journal:Volume 30(5)October 2008pp 39-40
Using Supplementation Legally to Enhance Performance


[COLUMNS: Research Digest]
Riewald, Scott PhD, CSCS, NSCA-CPT

USOC Performance Services, Colorado Springs, Colorado
Scott Riewald is the Performance Technologist and Biomechanist for the US Olympic Committee's Endurance Sportfolio.
SUMMARY TOP (http://www.nsca-scj.org/pt/re/ssc/fulltext.00126548-200810000-00006.htm;jsessionid=KH6JZQnrlkpX5GvrV92RrSt1HnGbj 81T1vTyTnxRbTfX6DhDJVhw!-631714950!181195629!8091!-1#top)


WITH ALL OF THE PUBLICITY ILLEGAL PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS HAVE RECEIVED OF LATE, IT SOMETIME IS FORGOTTEN THAT THERE ARE LEGAL SUPPLEMENTS AVAILABLE THAT CAN HELP ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE. THIS COLUMN SUMMARIZES A REVIEW/COMMENTARY ON BUFFERING WITH SODIUM BICARBONATE OR SODIUM CITRATE AND HOW IT CAN BE USED TO ENHANCE PERFORMANCE

Foreskin
06-28-2009, 01:00 PM
anyone do this? many many papers show this is effective for endurance. I've been doing it because the guy i'm training legs with is a cardio beast.

I use 0.3 g per kg bodyweight taken in water about 1 hour before. It's awful. You may want to throw up, but it works like a charm.

Anyone else?
i'm interested in trying this, is there any point to mixing it in something that tastes better? maybe some crystal lights or kool aid, maybe some straight vinnegar:D or how about trying to fit it into some empty capsules, i used to do that with salt when i worked outside in the heat

Dr Pangloss
06-28-2009, 01:34 PM
i'm interested in trying this, is there any point to mixing it in something that tastes better? maybe some crystal lights or kool aid, maybe some straight vinnegar:D or how about trying to fit it into some empty capsules, i used to do that with salt when i worked outside in the heat


dont mix with vinager! you'll develop catastrophic gas problem.

it tastes awful, but a gulp at a time it's really not that bad. i would say there's not much point in trying to cover it up.

If you're competing during workouts at all, it helps substantially. I train with a guy who takes very little rest between sets. Big help there.

If you're competing in bjj boxing or the like, it would also be a big help.

Frosty
06-28-2009, 01:40 PM
Hmmm, if I had a protein shake as my "pre-workout meal" then I think I could get away with taking baking soda before training. Although at this moment it's not needed since I'm doing sets of 6 with plenty of rest, but when I move to gaining weight and doing sets of 10-12 with incomplete rest this could be beneficial. Thanks for bringing this up because I wrote it off before as impractical, but with a protein shake meal before training I think this could work.

So is 1 hour pre-workout needed to get the benefit? Would 30 mins be too short?

TPT
06-28-2009, 02:06 PM
Hmmm, if I had a protein shake as my "pre-workout meal" then I think I could get away with taking baking soda before training. Although at this moment it's not needed since I'm doing sets of 6 with plenty of rest, but when I move to gaining weight and doing sets of 10-12 with incomplete rest this could be beneficial. Thanks for bringing this up because I wrote it off before as impractical, but with a protein shake meal before training I think this could work.

So is 1 hour pre-workout needed to get the benefit? Would 30 mins be too short?


hey frosty, you put sodium bicarb in your preworkout shake and let me know how it tastes! lol.

Dr Pangloss
06-28-2009, 03:24 PM
If you're using sets of six with moderat interset interval, dont' even bother.

If you're doing sets of 20 for legs, like more than 10 sets with a moderate interval that has you breathing hard when you start your next set, it's well worth it.

freak
06-29-2009, 06:25 AM
beta alanine and sodium bicarb work by increasing blood ph. the only neurotransmitter-like compounds that will increase endurance are things like amphetamine.
dont you mean DECREASING blood pH?

freak
06-29-2009, 06:32 AM
^ignore last post.. posted it before reading on further.. assumed it had to do with lowering Hb affinity for oxygen.

Ninja Loco
06-29-2009, 06:39 AM
Well pimp me out at the local prison rodeo and call me Kyle, I told Doc I was going to try this today and I'll danged if I didnt forget to take it with me.

Dr Pangloss
06-29-2009, 06:57 AM
Well pimp me out at the local prison rodeo and call me Kyle, I told Doc I was going to try this today and I'll danged if I didnt forget to take it with me.


If you're going to do any sparring, i would love to get your take on it. i use it for high rep fast set workouts.

Ninja Loco
06-29-2009, 07:31 AM
If you're going to do any sparring, i would love to get your take on it. i use it for high rep fast set workouts.
None yet, but the workout I get one of my girls to do is rather similar. Or I could try it in a straight conditioning workout.

Klaus Urine
07-04-2009, 08:48 PM
No one worried about a huge sodium intake?

Ninja Loco
07-04-2009, 11:19 PM
Weird you should bring that up today. I was just at the gym and I was telling one of my friends about it and that's exactly what he brought up, so I figured I'd come ask the Doc or Tat. Im of the opinion that it's not going to matter much since it's done during the workout and will be immediately used, as opposed to taking so much sodium while sedentary.

Frosty
07-05-2009, 12:44 AM
If you're sweating a lot and drinking a lot of water, I don't see it as a bad thing.

Dr Pangloss
07-05-2009, 08:19 AM
If you're sweating a lot and drinking a lot of water, I don't see it as a bad thing.


here's the right answer. however, if you're already hypertensive i would suggest perhaps not doing it.

Frosty
07-05-2009, 12:02 PM
I know personally for MY body when I'm dieting and it's 100+ degrees out here, I often have to make sure I get in extra salt in addition to heavily salting my foods. Sometimes I'll get really weak and lethargic but then I have some salty chicken broth a couple times and I feel 10x better. But that's just me in my climate. I also am doing keto which means I need more salt than a guy doing a carb diet. And who knows, genetically I might be predisposed to it as well...my mom says her dad (I take after him) always was a really heavy salt user his whole life, and he lived to be 92 and passed away of natural causes in his home.

Ninja Loco
07-05-2009, 12:49 PM
Thanks, Frosty and Doc!!

Klaus Urine
07-05-2009, 04:46 PM
here's the right answer. however, if you're already hypertensive i would suggest perhaps not doing it.But surely the extra grams of sodium would be surplus to requirements?

freak
07-11-2009, 05:43 PM
was just taking a look at my N.O. explode. has sodium bicarb in it... just thought that was an interesting tidbit.

Dr Pangloss
07-11-2009, 06:03 PM
But surely the extra grams of sodium would be surplus to requirements?


If you have too much sodium, your body excretes it. It's no big thing. It just so happens estrogen from test causes water and electrolyte sparing, so if you're on sterods also your body would be predisposed to hold it more. again though, not a big deal unless your blood pressure is high.

bottom like is your body gets rid of it expeditiously.