Staying on

[Mrbig]

what are the negative effects of staying on besides shutdown Im thinking like doing a cycle say for 12weeks then cruising on a low dose for 12 weeks then bak on and how long would you have to be on before permanent shutdown

[buselmo]

staying on is a commitment... you have to make sure that you will diet correctly and not "over indulge" while you are on.
1-the biggest concern is usually cholesterol... if your diet is in tact, you wouldn't need to worry about htat, but you should get it checked every once in a while

2- if you are prone to prostate enlargement (a lot of evidence points to estrogen also as a culprit). more test means more estrogen... and if you get on a strong AI like letro, you can get back to concern#1

3- having kids... although all the scientific data i've seen says that it is reversable if it was self induced by AAS, one still has to keep it in the back of his mind that if he wants to have kids it'll take him more time after coming off... one guy i know how to keep trying for 2 years til he got his wife pregnant.


if your concern is permanent shut down... well... i don't know, but i don't find that as a concern since test levels naturally decline the older you get, and as long as you are willing to stay on HRT if you decide to stay on, you wouldn't have to worry about your test levels.

that's just what i think...

[chucksm00th]

i think the sides arent worth it. give yourself a break, if your not Pro or intend on being Pro dont take the chance of hurting your body in the long run. Agian its a personal choice only you can make. be safe!

[MartyMcFly]

what dosages are we talking about here? What if you are on TRT? Say Test Cyp 200mg/week, how long before you see shutdown?

[militantmuscle]

How about sensitivity? Your receptors are going to become desensitized. Your gear will become less and less effective, and cortisol and estrogen will inevitable rise.

[RazorRipped]

How about sensitivity? Your receptors are going to become desensitized. Your gear will become less and less effective, and cortisol and estrogen will inevitable rise.


I agree over time our bodies get used to drugs. Call it a tolerance or whatever.

With that said, I've been on for 7 yrs straight, and I've made fantastic gains on doses far lower than before I decided to stay on permanently. I say hogwash to drugs becoming less effective. If you cruise long enough between cycles, at low dose, when you bump it up, you get great results. Not as dramatic as those that come off for 3-4 months, but to say less effective? Don't think so.

How is cortisol going to raise being on say 200-300 mgs test?

Same with estrogen.

Sorry, but those two statements you made are very inaccurate.

[Fluid Karma]

what dosages are we talking about here? What if you are on TRT? Say Test Cyp 200mg/week, how long before you see shutdown?

Hi again!lol

If your on TRT/ HRT/ BIG....oops part of a song....anyway it's a whole different story HCG prevents you from shutting down and...Ahh you know what it does, not going to repeat it over and over.....it's like beating a limp dick.......anyway..although even on HRT breaks are good....short ones. If your not given HCG on HRT then expect to shut down and say bye bye to your balls....then you'll be all dick like me and there are chicks out there that love a nice set of juicy balls as much as they lick..I mean...Like dick.

I don't know.....just an opinon...... there your balls...do what you want with them!:D

[MRT]

I agree over time our bodies get used to drugs. Call it a tolerance or whatever.

With that said, I've been on for 7 yrs straight, and I've made fantastic gains on doses far lower than before I decided to stay on permanently. I say hogwash to drugs becoming less effective. If you cruise long enough between cycles, at low dose, when you bump it up, you get great results. Not as dramatic as those that come off for 3-4 months, but to say less effective? Don't think so.

How is cortisol going to raise being on say 200-300 mgs test?

Same with estrogen.

Sorry, but those two statements you made are very inaccurate.

After 7 years on, do you think you will be able to get the aggots working again if u came off?

[militantmuscle]

I agree over time our bodies get used to drugs. Call it a tolerance or whatever.

With that said, I've been on for 7 yrs straight, and I've made fantastic gains on doses far lower than before I decided to stay on permanently. I say hogwash to drugs becoming less effective. If you cruise long enough between cycles, at low dose, when you bump it up, you get great results. Not as dramatic as those that come off for 3-4 months, but to say less effective? Don't think so.

How is cortisol going to raise being on say 200-300 mgs test?

Same with estrogen.

Sorry, but those two statements you made are very inaccurate.


It's not so much the drugs becoming less effective, as your receptors becoming less sensitive. Sorry for being vague, I meant the user's drug will be less effective upon the user. But you are right, the actual drugs don't get any less effective.

It's like if I've never done smack and I do it, I'll get a better reaction than the smack addict, even one whose cycled his dosages, (he's still been on the smack nevertheless). Like you mentioned, tolerance. The drug did not lose any strength (it did not magically become less effective!) but when it becomes involved with the body's chemistry and reaction factors, it doesn't become utilized as efficiently.

Cortisol and estrogen inevitably raises to any response of exogenous testosterone that disrupts homeostasis, average endogenous production is around 4-7mg daily. Typically HRT is given to men with abnormally low levels, in order to mimic natural endogenous production. HRT is also under supervision of doctors, who check levels and run tests periodically to make sure the patient is maintaining homeostasis. Exogenous testosterone cannot mimic the natural circulation of hormones the body produces.

Now, in the case of staying on, and bridging with low test levels, you're creating an artificial system which agreed, will bring about good results...

But my opinion is that it is better to take athletes off, make things simpler. You could use non AAS growth factors while these athletes are off, so they don't stop growing.

[MRT]

You could use non AAS growth factors while these athletes are off, so they don't stop growing.

Yeah i thought that's what the pro's do, they go off steroids and up the gh and slin until they go back on, i'm no expert just a guess.

[MartyMcFly]

Hi again!lol

If your on TRT/ HRT/ BIG....oops part of a song....anyway it's a whole different story HCG prevents you from shutting down and...Ahh you know what it does, not going to repeat it over and over.....it's like beating a limp dick.......anyway..although even on HRT breaks are good....short ones. If your not given HCG on HRT then expect to shut down and say bye bye to your balls....then you'll be all dick like me and there are chicks out there that love a nice set of juicy balls as much as they lick..I mean...Like dick.

I don't know.....just an opinon...... there your balls...do what you want with them!:D

Thanks again bro it's all new to me, but I'm grateful I'm learning. Thanks to razorripped and Elitet316, they've got experience under the belt.

[JamesWebb]

you cells are always re-producing/recycling androgen receptors. the whole idea that these receptors become "worn out" or "desensitized" has been proven wrong over and over again during cellular studies.

[RazorRipped]

you cells are always re-producing/recycling androgen receptors. the whole idea that these receptors become "worn out" or "desensitized" has been proven wrong over and over again during cellular studies.


Thank you Sir!:)

All of a sudden one guy on MD posts a study with MICE/Rats and all the parrots grab their crackers , step up on their perches to try an turn this into gospel. Hilarious

[RazorRipped]

>>>>>>>>>>


it's not so much the drugs becoming less effective, as your receptors becoming less sensitive. nonsense




cortisol and estrogen inevitably raises to any response of exogenous testosterone that disrupts homeostasis, average endogenous production is around 4-7mg daily. Typically hrt is given to men with abnormally low levels, in order to mimic natural endogenous production. Hrt is also under supervision of doctors, who check levels and run tests periodically to make sure the patient is maintaining homeostasis. Exogenous testosterone cannot mimic the natural circulation of hormones the body produces.

we aren't talking about doctor supervised hrt.

Are you on hrt?

Have you had blood work done countless times to show your cortisol levels are abnormally high?


Myself, i'm speaking from personal experience,and that of many many of my friends who have been on for multiple years. So what you are saying in regards to cortisol levels is very inaccurate in my case, and that of all my friends.

It one thing to dictate scientific jargon, but in most cases, real world, in the trenches experience prevails.:)








~rr

[RazorRipped]

After 7 years on, do you think you will be able to get the aggots working again if u came off?

Highly unlikely I could have kids. But then again, I don't give a fuck...loll...

[militantmuscle]

So let me get this straight,

you guys are saying that receptor desensitization is a myth, or claiming that receptor recycling negates the effect of receptor desensitization exerted by testosterone?

Because if the body can do that on its own, why do we need PCT?

[RazorRipped]

..................


so let me get this straight,

you guys are saying that receptor desensitization is a myth, or claiming that receptor recycling negates the effect of receptor desensitization exerted by testosterone?i think Nandi and several other have shown down regulation of androgen receptors to be mythical.

I think our bodies adapt to these drugs just like most of drugs. Tolernace if you will. But over saturation at normal doses is a myth imo. I could see super high doses of 4g plus possible causing such a thing. But not 750-1500 mgs weekly. Which is very normal for most guys.


Can you ansewr the question in regards to: Are you on hrt?

Blood work ect to back your claims?





because if the body can do that on its own, why do we need pct?that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand





~rr

[TaylorB]

How about sensitivity? Your receptors are going to become desensitized. Your gear will become less and less effective, and cortisol and estrogen will inevitable rise.
scientifically speaking - test (all androgens ) never quit working.

[TaylorB]

Thank you Sir!:)

All of a sudden one guy on MD posts a study with MICE/Rats and all the parrots grab their crackers , step up on their perches to try an turn this into gospel. Hilarious
hey razor

i just like getting stuff right

so if something new pops up, i like to show it around to several different people and see what they all think

i had a buddy of mine get on MD and take a look, and ask some questions. here =


Dr Pangloss, could you explain how you calculated the 3.5g human AR saturation point from that study? Maybe just a simplified explanation.

Also, which drugs would you classify as weaker than test and drugs that inhibit the stronger drugs?

Furthermore, do you think Anadrol has metabolites that bind very well (Patrick Arnold thinks it does)? As I recall oxymetholone itself basically doesn't bind at all, at least according to some study.

winstrol is a weaker drug and clearly inhibited the effect of Testosterone in this case... a whopping effect on androgen receptor accumulation in the nucleus.

anadrol has a number of metabolites, but i could not tell you whether they bind better. If patrick says so, i'm sure he has good reason to.


I hope i answered everything.



here goes:


rats were give two different regimens for behavioral testing and for androgen receptor occupation. behabioral was 5 mg/kg or a combination equalling 10 mg/kg injected every day for 5 days per week for the duration of the study. A 220 lb bb is 100 kg. I typically use that as the standard because it's easy and pretty average.

thats 500 mg or 1g equivalent in a 100 kg bb every day, 5 days per week, in the behavioural studies.

for the androgen receptor occupation, animals were given 5 mg/kg or 10 mg/kg every day for 8 days straight of Test Prop and then sacked the following day. this is 3.5 g or 7 g per week in a 100 kg bodybuilder.

Androgen receptor accumulation in the nucleus was then measured for both, and no difference was found between 3.5g and 7 g.

indeed there is a clear difference when you compare Test Prop with something like winstrol, for instance, so the difference, if unsaturated, should be there, but it's not.


Is there a difference between rats and humans with regard to things like AR density, hormone metabolism, etc... IOW can you say that the saturation dosage will be the same in a human as in a rat?

IIRC correctly Bill Roberts once wrote that at approximately 4g/week of test you'd saturate 98% of ARs. Don't know what he based that on.


ARs are about the same concentration in tissue. In fact a little lower than in this study by my recollection.

I can confirm that and post it, however.

On the big question: It would obviously be better if it were in humans, but at this point i have no reason to dismiss a rat study on androgen receptor occupation. we're talking about the same molecules and binding proteins with more than 90% homology. It's a tough argument to dismiss based on known facts.

That said, if some new and previously unknown bit of information informs us that this is incorrect, i will be the first to tell everyone...

I really have no pride when it comes to data. it is what it is.

ps roberts sounds about right. of course, you could probably hit 99 by adding another 2 g ew, for what its worth, which is nothing...

[RazorRipped]

scientifically speaking - test (all androgens ) never quit working.

With the over saturation/down regulation theory, by 21 yrs of age all men would suffer over saturation at some point.

[Mrbig]

wat about only for a year or 2 then coming off completly wuld it possible to get the natural test production going again

[militantmuscle]

If I did not make myself clear I apologize. I will condense what I have to say in three points:

1. Exogenous testosterone treatment can cause aromatization (conversion to estrogen).

2. I spoke of receptor desensitization, not down-regulation. Never once did I mention down-regulation. "Regulation" of a receptor refers to control over the number of receptors per cell. "Sensitivity," in contrast, refers to the degree of activity each receptor has.

3. I always considered HRT to be supervised by a physician, and otherwise to be considered an AAS cycle. Forgive me for my assumption.

As for my personal HRT experiences, I have none. Zero. Zip. I don't think this changes my points however. The issue seems to have been a misunderstanding.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/rep...469.pdf?ck=nck (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/84/10/3469.pdf?ck=nck) - This is just one study comparing two methods of exogenous testosterone application, transdermal and intramuscular for patients suffering from hypogonadism. The studies observe that aromatization and side-effects related to increases in estrogen from the IM application did occur.

[maxititer]

naltrexone is drug which can change the whole picture. I'm very moderate AAS user and I'm sure that with naltrexone I can run it non stop a long I wish.

I did some experiments with drostanonlon and oxandrolone, as non aromitizing alternative to testoserone and it does not worth it, for HRT at least.

[MRT]

[QUOTE=maxititer;31829]naltrexone is drug which can change the whole picture. I'm very moderate AAS user and I'm sure that with naltrexone I can run it non stop a long I wish.

QUOTE]

wtf is naltrexone?

[maxititer]

That idea to use naltrexon for prevention of pituitary and testicular atrophy during a long cycles have been around for a while. First time I read about it in article titled "Opioid Modulation & Potential for Preventing AAS Induced HPTA Suppression" written by Eric M. Potratz.

That is very decent articles in general on HTPA suppression and brought up in the light idea to use u opiod receptor blockers as naltrexon for prevention of HTPA suppression. Article coming with whopping 47 references. Number of references already a good indicator for serious work behind this idea. I did some check s of references for relevance and all of then were very much relevant. Next step was practical check up, and that went good too, so I'm on naltrexon for last year and quite happy.

[Mr. Shoulders]

How about sensitivity? Your receptors are going to become desensitized. Your gear will become less and less effective, and cortisol and estrogen will inevitable rise.
This is a myth...receptors do not down regulate, actually your body creates new receptor sites to handle the added load...As far as desensitization goes different aas have different actions at receptor site so all one has to do for the most part is rotate compounds plus, Methyltrienolone will clean receptors out just fine

[Aaron Singerman]

I agree over time our bodies get used to drugs. Call it a tolerance or whatever.

With that said, I've been on for 7 yrs straight, and I've made fantastic gains on doses far lower than before I decided to stay on permanently. I say hogwash to drugs becoming less effective. If you cruise long enough between cycles, at low dose, when you bump it up, you get great results. Not as dramatic as those that come off for 3-4 months, but to say less effective? Don't think so.


I'm going on 6 years straight and I'm going to have to agree with RR here... I haven't found drugs becoming less effective. I also have my blood work done several times a year, and other than low HDL (my LDL is also very low) I've never had any problems or concerns.

[Aaron Singerman]

naltrexone is drug which can change the whole picture. I'm very moderate AAS user and I'm sure that with naltrexone I can run it non stop a long I wish.

I did some experiments with drostanonlon and oxandrolone, as non aromitizing alternative to testoserone and it does not worth it, for HRT at least.

I was wondering why you were including naltrexone in your cycle!

[RazorRipped]

.......................


1. Exogenous testosterone treatment can cause aromatization (conversion to estrogen).Minimally in new HRt patients. As time goes on that dissipates.If you have been on HRT for some period, you'd have noticed things like this.
Body fat in HRT patients plays a huge role as well. All these things need to be taken into account.

You still haven't addressed how testosterone at low dose(HRT) causes cortisol levels to raise. But I suppose, that's another thread



.

3. I always considered HRT to be supervised by a physician, and otherwise to be considered an AAS cycle. Forgive me for my assumption.You've said you've been in this sport for sometime. You mean you don't know anyone who self administers HRT? This is very common practice in this sport. Outside this sport, yes, most everyone uses a doctor and pays premium prices doing so. Most of those people have insurance to cover a 150.00 bottle of Test.

As for my personal HRT experiences, I have none. Zero. Zip. I don't think this changes my points however. The issue seems to have been a misunderstanding.My point being is you haven't any real world experience to back your claims. It's easy to type out scientific jargon, but with topics like this most everyone would rather hear real world experiences. Having an opinion on the topic is fine, but let everyone know it's just an opinion.

Myself, I'm speaking from 7 yrs experience being on HRT doses. I have blood work to back my assessments.
The reason why I had to go on HRT at 34 yrs of age is becuase drug abuse throughout my 20's. I experimented too heavily at times. I also didn't give myself enough time off between cycles. By 27 my endo saw my test levels starting to drop. Know what I did? Something real smart. I hardly came off at all.

I'll be very honest here. I'm not on these boards to help guys improve, get bigger. I could give a flying fuck about that.
I'm here more or less to help young guys NOT make the mistakes I made throughout my 20+ yrs of drug use(or is it ABUSE?)
So when I see comments made in threads like this that are inaccurate, I step in the sort of straighten things out. Call it controversy or whatever. I'm not trying to be the devils advocate, but it bothers me to see things parroted that are in fact false. In this case you've made a few statements that are very inaccurate. If in fact you've been on HRT you'd know what I'm talking about:)







.

That si all...............:)

~RR

[red barraca]

you guy's need to listen to razor,he's not your friend,buddy,bro.he's guy that's been through the trenches,and know's the hard cold fact's of drug use,if you value your health.

[It's not Roid Rage !]

I'm still learning..i started at 500 mg test, after 3-4 months had to double it to grow anymore..finally at 1500mg i came off, ive been off for 2 months, going back on in about 3 wks..and i kept 60 % of my gains..As far as what this all means IDK..do recepters get burned ? It seemed to me they did, or my body was use to the dose..im not a scientist so im still reading !

[militantmuscle]

.......................



That si all...............:)

~RR


lol, well in that case Razor, I humbly acquiese:) fini.

[maxititer]

I was wondering why you were including naltrexone in your cycle!

for prevention of pituitary and testicular atrophy.

[TaylorB]

nothing wrong with aromatization anyway... estrogen is helpful

[LittleChris]

hello men,
i also have been on hrt for about 3 years at around 200 mgs a week, and i can say that i have not gotten desensitized to it. i recuperate VERY quickly, my muscle gains have been very consistent and steady, and i can fuck all day long, my libido is through the roof!!! this leads me to beleive that the effectds of testosteron are continuing to work. any steady amount of testtosterone will shut one down, but you have to mix it up with hcg twice per week ,and u have to keep the estrogen low by using an antiestrogen. ill be on testosterone for the rest of my life. oh and my blood tests come out excellent. at my physical, the doc said i was that of an elite athlete. BUT, i train like an animal, i dont miss workouts, and i eat very clean.

-LC

[ANABOLIC1]

Been on over 2 years straight...

Been fantastic.

[Mrbig]

Been on over 2 years straight...

Been fantastic.

at wat doses

[MartyMcFly]

hello men,
i also have been on hrt for about 3 years at around 200 mgs a week, and i can say that i have not gotten desensitized to it. i recuperate VERY quickly, my muscle gains have been very consistent and steady, and i can fuck all day long, my libido is through the roof!!! this leads me to beleive that the effectds of testosteron are continuing to work. any steady amount of testtosterone will shut one down, but you have to mix it up with hcg twice per week ,and u have to keep the estrogen low by using an antiestrogen. ill be on testosterone for the rest of my life. oh and my blood tests come out excellent. at my physical, the doc said i was that of an elite athlete. BUT, i train like an animal, i dont miss workouts, and i eat very clean.

-LC

sweet bro I too want that. I'm ghoping to get HCG and an anti estrogen? But wait, anti estrogen or anti aromataze?

[MartyMcFly]

sorry I meant to ask, which is better anti- estrogen or an anti-aromataze? and why?

[militantmuscle]

anti-estrogen is a loose term, there are antagonists like clomid which inhibit estrogen at receptor sites (they don't lower levels of circulating estrogen however) and aromatase inhibitors which prevent conversion to estrogen, like arimidex, aromasin, and proviron.

I'd go with HCG and clomid for kick starting endogenous testosterone production (or maintaining), and arimidex to control estrogen.

[ANABOLIC1]

Been on over 2 years straight...

Been fantastic.

A variety of doses and drugs....

Currently and for the last 7 months straight been running right around 3g total anabolics/wk

[MartyMcFly]

anti-estrogen is a loose term, there are antagonists like clomid which inhibit estrogen at receptor sites (they don't lower levels of circulating estrogen however) and aromatase inhibitors which prevent conversion to estrogen, like arimidex, aromasin, and proviron.

I'd go with HCG and clomid for kick starting endogenous testosterone production (or maintaining), and arimidex to control estrogen.


oh great, thanks for the info. is there a problem with running nolvadex and arimidex together? or is that too much? one or the other, or just arimidex would solve the estrogen issue?

[Mr. Shoulders]

A variety of doses and drugs....

Currently and for the last 7 months straight been running right around 3g total anabolics/wk
Keep at it bro...It will be 5 years for me next month...

[Juntao]

hello men,
i also have been on hrt for about 3 years at around 200 mgs a week, and i can say that i have not gotten desensitized to it. i recuperate VERY quickly, my muscle gains have been very consistent and steady, and i can fuck all day long, my libido is through the roof!!! this leads me to beleive that the effectds of testosteron are continuing to work. any steady amount of testtosterone will shut one down, but you have to mix it up with hcg twice per week ,and u have to keep the estrogen low by using an antiestrogen. ill be on testosterone for the rest of my life. oh and my blood tests come out excellent. at my physical, the doc said i was that of an elite athlete. BUT, i train like an animal, i dont miss workouts, and i eat very clean.

-LC

How much hcg do you take per week?

whilst on this HRT, do you throw other compounds i.e. DECA, EQ, DBOL etc?

What test are you using?

[Mrbig]

A variety of doses and drugs....

Currently and for the last 7 months straight been running right around 3g total anabolics/wk

do you get ur bloodwork done any negative sides I.E HBP bad cholestrol etc

[ANABOLIC1]

Keep at it bro...It will be 5 years for me next month...

Fuckin-A brother...

[LittleChris]

hey juntao,
yes i use h.c.g. at 500 i.u. per shot. i do the shot every 4 days. i am on test cypionate. in the summer ill add 400 mg of deca for about 10 weeks. this upcoming summer ill do 200 mg of deca and 25 mg of anavar. ill do the deca for 10 weeks and the anavar for 100 days. all the while doing test at 200 mg per week.

-LC