When will this MD madness end? Waxy Maize Starch Myth

[Leigh Carmichael]

Now MD is labeling Waxy Maize Starch as "The Latest Supplement Myth".

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1442/51/

Could this have something to do with Dave's position on WMS and that they are yet again trying to discredit him?

Sorry to bring this up but when will it end? It's going way too far. Are they going to keep bringing up studies like this to counter everything that Dave and John have ever said?

John once said that "the sky is red". Do they have a study to prove that this is not the case?

[Viking]

I belive the sky is red theory was thrown out due to lack of funding...

[buster12]

no. There is actual studies to back up that it is only a myth! im very upset I just bought a tub of waxy. Next i'll get vitargo!

[MRT]

Now MD is labeling Waxy Maize Starch as "The Latest Supplement Myth".

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1442/51/

Could this have something to do with Dave's position on WMS and that they are yet again trying to discredit him?

Sorry to bring this up but when will it end? It's going way too far. Are they going to keep bringing up studies like this to counter everything that Dave and John have ever said?

John once said that "the sky is red". Do they have a study to prove that this is not the case?


The sky is red, I'll never question john mwahahah

[desibaba]

Im sure MD is saying and everything they can at this point to make Dave look bad. Like the Low carb diets kill and whatnot but that being said i have tried waxy myself for one whole year and i honestly didnt see any difference in gains. Not saying that its worthless but from a practical point of view i dont think its really any better than dextrose.

Dave said it best "There are essential proteins and fats but there is NO SUCH THING as an essential CARB".

[Viking]

no. There is actual studies to back up that it is only a myth! im very upset I just bought a tub of waxy. Next i'll get vitargo!

What about Professional Supplements Karbolyn?

[NPCKnight]

You guys are losing sight of this and making up conspiracy theories now. I fucking hate MD too but this was in the works before the fallout. Waxy has been afloat on ridiculous claims that Vitargo originally proved. Waxy never proved anything, but everyone bought into it. I did too but from the very beginning I said, just as Vargasty did, that Vitargo is a WAY DIFF animal than WMS. I could never truly feel a damn thing from Waxy and it bloats you. Now science finally comes out to refute it....real testing which had been asked upon by both sides on the Waxy Maize fence and people want to ignore it?

[NPCKnight]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/waxy_maize_starch_myth.htm

REAL SCIENCE bros. And its not funded by MD...

[r_wichman]

from the article.

[ FAQ ] You're wrong. I know WMS works.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/i2.gif


This review isn't suggesting that WMS can't restore muscle glycogen, it simply shows that at best it is not superior to dextrose or maltodextrin. Of course we can't personally determine whether our gastric emptying is superior to other fast carbs - even taking blood sugar measurements is not sensitive enough to ascertain this.
To date, there are no comparison gastric emptying studies with WMS. Lastly, don't forget that this is an investigative literature review, not an opinion piece.

[r_wichman]

Personally I use waxy maize and I feel like I do not get that sugar coma feeling when I drink it... hence the reason that I prefer it to dextrose.



Dave: I know that you prefer waxy maize... do you care to give your opinion on this subject.

[NPCKnight]

I never said that Waxy cant restore muscle glycogen. Dont put words to my name that I never said. Personally, I wouldnt use something inferior. Maybe if a certain KIND of waxy was MADE an industry standard and there was some RESEARCH to back it.... it wouldnt look like such a fad turned let down.

[NPCKnight]

Dave is a noble man but lets not forget he has a product involved..

[Viking]

Dave is a noble man but lets not forget he has a product involved..

Some buddies that are more invovled with BB use that stuff but im like whats up with WMS?

I just use protein pre and post...

[Leigh Carmichael]

I didn't so much mean that WMS wasn't a myth as MD put it.

I was more so making the point that MD keeps posting studies trying to discredit Dave.

They should just give up. Or maybe I shouldn't let it get to me so much LOL

[NPCKnight]

In fairness, Dave was not mentioned or even eluded to in the article. It was a simple science article that has been in the works for a long while citing several studies that repeatedly show Waxy is not what it seems.

[Womanthrower]

Personally I use waxy maize and I feel like I do not get that sugar coma feeling when I drink it... hence the reason that I prefer it to dextrose.
If you're taking waxymaize for the reason most people take dextrose (insulin spike and blahh blahh) then I don't get your reasoning. You don't get the sugar feeling because waximaize doesn't raise anything to drop down. That doesn't mean that they're doing the same thing but one leaves you without a crash.

[NPCKnight]

Exactly!

[Orca]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/waxy_maize_starch_myth.htm

REAL SCIENCE bros. And its not funded by MD...


THIS

If I remember correctly, Vitargo works due to a specific form of processing (or whatever, honestly never tried it either), straight waxy maize(corn) starch is just that: corn starch powder.

[47ronin]

I'm not a fan of MD but I don't think this was printed to discredit Dave. It'd be nice if a supplement was created based on MULTIPLE research studies vs creating and marketing a supplement and then having studies done on it.

[desibaba]

So the bottom line is grape juice is cheaper and better?

[Orca]

So the bottom line is grape juice is cheaper and better?


Haha, good point, the fancy stuff is often not 'as advertised' On the other hand grape juice has a high fructose content which doesn't spike insulin like glucose. There is still glucose in it, so in terms of cost-effectiveness it is probably still good.

You'd have to compare price of dextrose (or maltodextrin) to grape juice.

Effects of mannose and fructose on the synthesis and secretion of insulin.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2654926 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2654926)

[joe-yamma]

i'm pretty sure that Dave covered this on the 1/19 episode of NBR.
he was answering a caller's question on the q&a.

he said something along the lines that while it might not be as high on the glycemic index as dextros/malto (which are basically the top of the scale), it is still a has a high molecular weight which tends to clear the stomach quickly and pull nutrients into the muscle with it.

i hope that i didn't chop that up too bad. listen to that episode of NBR or perhaps Dave will answer in here.

[NPCKnight]

As I said, Dave has a product involved and in his Q and A he has recently stated that until research comes out to prove me wrong then he stands by it. Well, there is a study out now by David Barr and its linked in this thread and forum about 3 times. Waxy doesnt spike insulin high at all, and it is not a fast carb.

[pimp c]

What about Professional Supplements Karbolyn?

i love this stuff. its the closest thing i've found to pure vitargo. the texture is much different than the flour looking stuff that ids and optimum nutrition are using. i use half scoop karbolyn with my preworkout drink and then another half during workout mixed with BCAA's. the combo works the best for me.

[NPCKnight]

Karbolyn is different in texture, yes. Its like a fine sand. I am using it now but I wish there was more info on it. Not much to draw conclusions from.

[r_wichman]

If you're taking waxymaize for the reason most people take dextrose (insulin spike and blahh blahh) then I don't get your reasoning. You don't get the sugar feeling because waximaize doesn't raise anything to drop down. That doesn't mean that they're doing the same thing but one leaves you without a crash.



I am saying that I want to spike my insulin post workout, but I don't want to feel like I am going to pass out on the drive home..... driving my car into a light pole just doesn't seem worth the faster method. ;)

[Womanthrower]

I am saying that I want to spike my insulin post workout, but I don't want to feel like I am going to pass out on the drive home..... driving my car into a light pole just doesn't seem worth the faster method. ;)
Which is what I said was flawed logic in my post. It isn't that it's "not as fast." It's a method that's not having the same effect on insulin at all.

[Enmity]

there's a study for almost any product out there. how reputable and valid it is, is another story. if you invest in pure waxy maize starch the price nearly equates that of dextrose, so there really isn't much of a controversy.


I am saying that I want to spike my insulin post workout, but I don't want to feel like I am going to pass out on the drive home..... driving my car into a light pole just doesn't seem worth the faster method. ;)

dramatization lol. but considerably true. WMS is just another scam for retailers to pocket your money - similar to nitric oxide. however in relation to your comment, insulin takes close to 35-40 minutes to go to town. and unless you're severely hypoglycemic after the secretion, it really shouldnt present a problem.

[r_wichman]

Next time you use your dextrose take 60g and let me know how you feel.

[r_wichman]

this is from bb.com for their product description of waxy maize.



http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/waxymaize.html (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/waxymaize.html)



Waxy Maize Info And Products
Waxy Maize's Ability To Shuttle All These Nutrients And Starch Gives The Bo
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/yl.gif

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/creacirc2.jpgWaxy Maize has a much higher molecular weight and a much lower osmolarity rate compared to dextrose or maltodextrin, so what does this mean. Mainly, Waxy Maize bypasses the stomach, is absorbed by the intestines and immediately is assimilated; this is all done at a much faster rate than dextrose or maltodextrin, almost double.
Waxy Maize can help the absorption rates of many of your favorite supplements like creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester, cell volumization and nitric oxide type supplements, etc. Nutrients like this often times are left in the stomachs harsh acidic environment and degrade absorption rates. Waxy Maizehelps shuttle these nutrients to bypass the stomach and allow the body to assimilate these nutrients at a much higher rate.

Waxy Maize has the ability to replenish the body's glycogen stores much faster than a mix of maltodextrin or dextrose. This is accomplished again by Waxy Maize's ability to bypass the stomach and go to the intestines for immediate absorption. Waxy Maize's ability to shuttle all these nutrients and starch gives the body an immediate "pump" you can physically feel in your muscles post workout. You will see a much larger, fuller and rounder muscle belly.

[r_wichman]

And this is their product description for dextrose



http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/dex.html (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/dex.html)



NOW Presents:
Dextrose
Corn Sugar!




http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/dex.jpg



http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/botbord.gif
This Sugar Is The Chief Source Of Energy In The Body!



Dextrose (also known as glucose) is a monosaccharide or simple sugar that is about 20% less sweet compared to cane sugar. It is derived entirely from corn, is low-cost, and contains no fructose or lactose. Dextrose is commonly used as a sweetener, a source of rapidly absorbed energy and a carrier in water soluble medications. This sugar is the chief source of energy in the body.

[Womanthrower]

You not read this thread before you made your post or something? Those claims you just cited were based on Vitargo. Waximaize doesn't actually work like that according to any study posted in this thread. and from personal experience I've only ever noticed a more slow released sort of sensation from it. I always thought that was weird since it's supposed to be fast acting and blahh blahh. So I'm siding with these studies for sure.

[Supernatural]

It would be great to hear Dave's detailed view as well as someone like Scott Connelly on a future Heavy Muscle Radio Show.

[NPCKnight]

this is from bb.com for their product description of waxy maize.



http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/waxymaize.html (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/waxymaize.html)



Waxy Maize Info And Products
Waxy Maize's Ability To Shuttle All These Nutrients And Starch Gives The Bo
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/yl.gif

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/creacirc2.jpgWaxy Maize has a much higher molecular weight and a much lower osmolarity rate compared to dextrose or maltodextrin, so what does this mean. Mainly, Waxy Maize bypasses the stomach, is absorbed by the intestines and immediately is assimilated; this is all done at a much faster rate than dextrose or maltodextrin, almost double.
Waxy Maize can help the absorption rates of many of your favorite supplements like creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester, cell volumization and nitric oxide type supplements, etc. Nutrients like this often times are left in the stomachs harsh acidic environment and degrade absorption rates. Waxy Maizehelps shuttle these nutrients to bypass the stomach and allow the body to assimilate these nutrients at a much higher rate.

Waxy Maize has the ability to replenish the body's glycogen stores much faster than a mix of maltodextrin or dextrose. This is accomplished again by Waxy Maize's ability to bypass the stomach and go to the intestines for immediate absorption. Waxy Maize's ability to shuttle all these nutrients and starch gives the body an immediate "pump" you can physically feel in your muscles post workout. You will see a much larger, fuller and rounder muscle belly.


Malarkie!


AKA


BULLSHIT

[NPCKnight]

this is from bb.com for their product description of waxy maize.



http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/waxymaize.html (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/waxymaize.html)



Waxy Maize Info And Products
Waxy Maize's Ability To Shuttle All These Nutrients And Starch Gives The Bo
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/yl.gif

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/creacirc2.jpgWaxy Maize has a much higher molecular weight and a much lower osmolarity rate compared to dextrose or maltodextrin, so what does this mean. Mainly, Waxy Maize bypasses the stomach, is absorbed by the intestines and immediately is assimilated; this is all done at a much faster rate than dextrose or maltodextrin, almost double.
Waxy Maize can help the absorption rates of many of your favorite supplements like creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester, cell volumization and nitric oxide type supplements, etc. Nutrients like this often times are left in the stomachs harsh acidic environment and degrade absorption rates. Waxy Maizehelps shuttle these nutrients to bypass the stomach and allow the body to assimilate these nutrients at a much higher rate.

Waxy Maize has the ability to replenish the body's glycogen stores much faster than a mix of maltodextrin or dextrose. This is accomplished again by Waxy Maize's ability to bypass the stomach and go to the intestines for immediate absorption. Waxy Maize's ability to shuttle all these nutrients and starch gives the body an immediate "pump" you can physically feel in your muscles post workout. You will see a much larger, fuller and rounder muscle belly.


Malarkey I SAY!


AKA


BULLSHIT

[r_wichman]

You not read this thread before you made your post or something? Those claims you just cited were based on Vitargo. Waximaize doesn't actually work like that according to any study posted in this thread. and from personal experience I've only ever noticed a more slow released sort of sensation from it. I always thought that was weird since it's supposed to be fast acting and blahh blahh. So I'm siding with these studies for sure.


I'm gonna listen to Dave.... no offence, but he's got more street credit than you. :cool:

[needtogetaas]

Why not just use natures post work out product!!!!!!!!

Post work out supplements. for god sakes how many of them are out there now????? from waxy maize to the super over advertised drink mixes. The amount of products out there in the fitness industry amaze me. Now don't get me wrong I am not downing all the post work out sups out there. I am simple offering (or should I say bringing you back) to one of natures post work out supplement. After all if nature intended it I tend to think its one of the best IMO.
Primarily honey has been used as an energy source, but recent research has examined the use of honey as an ergogenic aid (a food or ingredient that helps an athlete’s performance) and wound healing agent, both of which were once considered merely age-old anecdotes.

In the time of the ancient Olympics, athletes were reported to eat special foods, such as honey and dried figs, to enhance their sports performance. Recently, however, one group of researchers has investigated the use of honey as an ergogenic aid in athletes. The study involved a group of 39 weight-trained athletes, both male and female. Subjects underwent an intensive weight-lifting workout and then immediately consumed a protein supplement blended with either sugar, maltodextrin or honey as the carbohydrate source. The honey group maintained optimal blood sugar levels throughout the two hours following the workout. In addition, muscle recuperation and glycogen restoration (carbohydrates stored in muscle) was favorable in those individuals consuming the honey-protein combination.

Sustaining favorable blood sugar concentrations after endurance training by ingesting carbohydrates before, during and after training is important for maintaining muscle glycogen stores (glycogen is the form in which sugar is stored in muscle as ready-to-use fuel), so that muscle recuperation is more efficient and the athlete is ready to perform again at their highest level the next day. The best-studied ergogenic aid is carbohydrates because they are necessary for maintaining muscle glycogen stores.
In this study http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2206056 published by pub med we can see that honey maintains blood glucose levels to a better degree then sucrose or maltodextrin. And that its a very effective post work out carb source.

If All that is not enough think about these facts when choosing a post work out car source.
1) It is nutritious for you: A much healthier choice than over-processed, factory-made table sugar table sugar and artificial sweeteners which do not have any vitamins or whatsoever nutrients, honey contains many vitamins like B6, thiamin, niacin, riboflavin, pantothenic acid and certain amino acids. and minerals including calcium, copper, iron, magnesium, manganese, phosphorus, potassium, sodium and zinc.

2) It builds your immunity against sicknesses: Honey contains natural antioxidant properties that can destroy biologically destructive chemical agents which have been linked to many diseases such as cancer. Not only could honey’s antioxidants help to eliminate free radicals in the body, they are also part of the nutrient supply for growth of new tissue. Because of this, for centuries, honey has been used all over the world in different cultures as a home remedy

3)It energizes you: This perhaps is the most common reply kids get from their parents when they ask "why is honey good for you?" A great natural source of carbohydrates which provide strength and energy to our bodies, honey is known for its effectiveness in instantly boosting the performance, endurance and reduce muscle fatigue of athletes. Its natural fruit sugars, fructose and glucose plays an important role in preventing fatigue during exercise and are quickly absorbed into the bloodstream digested by the body. Also, honey is free of cholesterol and it has been reported that adding small amounts of it in the daily diet could even help keep cholesterol levels in check.

5)Honey has been eulogized in the scriptures of every major religion since the dawn of time. Its time tested and said to be the ( food of the gods )

6)Because it's predigested by insects many people who can't stomach cane sugar,waizymaize, and other post work out sups can more easily metabolize honey and enjoy its natural energy.

When you stack honey up against the rest it hold its own

[needtogetaas]

May look a little funny. I had to take out the aids and links to a few of my products. I don't want to spam or detract from the forum. I have respect for the site.

[Plates]

Or why not use ON 2:1:1 recovery? 35g of protein/70g fast acting carbs. Seems to work well for me i suppose. without getting over saturated with buying different products and wasting $. Im sick and tired of spending $ on shit, and a week later some study comes out that says its garbage.

2:1:1 Carbohydrate Ratio
2 x Glucose Polymers + Waxy Maize Starch
1 x Sucrose
1 x Fructose
2:1:1 Protein Ratio
2 x Hydrolyzed Whey Protein Isolate (Fast)
1 x Micellar Casein (Slow)
1 x Egg Albumen (Intermediate)
2:1:1 BCAA Ratio
2 x Leucine
1 x Isoleucine
1 x Valine

[NPCKnight]

Well, for the mere reason its main source of 70g 'fast acting' carbs is waxy maize. So we are right back where we started. If the label is accurate for the product, it seems like a good product on paper anyways as far as what it contains. I am surprised more companies are not going to 4:1:1 Leucine concentrations.

[big.poppa.pump]

I use to use waxy and I was high on it for like 3 months. Now, I truely do think it isn't what its cracked up to be. I didn't see any gains. I felt its all bs.

[collegelinebacker31]

i had great gains on waxi. the only downside is the horrible shits and farts 24 hours a day if you go over 80g a day. prob wont purchase again due to this. ill probably just go back to my whey isolate and a gatorade post wo.