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gman
07-08-2009, 01:56 PM
How can you tell if you are depressed for real vs you only think you are depressed?

I have heard it referred to as clinical vs situational depression as well.

I am depressed as hell to the point of listlessness. I have done zero work at the office for over 2 weeks now, just sit and think about how depressed I am.

Hate my career path, hate my financial situation, feel like shit because I fail at dieting every single time, have done hardly anything in my life to help others and basically have this phrase running through my mind a lot: You are a failure, just give up.

The only thing I am keeping up with is my training schedule, never miss, and never will. It is keeping me going, to be honest.

How do I know whether this is real depression or am I just a crybaby and a 47 year old going through the typical male midlife crisis?

Ninja Loco
07-08-2009, 01:59 PM
See a therapist who can diagnose the problem properly. No one here can tell you what you need to know.


I suspected that I had it for many years. I was told both yes and no by "people who knew". And yet I was diagnosed with it. No medication, it's a bitch.

Tate
07-08-2009, 02:01 PM
Drop out of the race and move to amsterdam for 5 years

gman
07-08-2009, 02:07 PM
See a therapist who can diagnose the problem properly. No one here can tell you what you need to know.


I suspected that I had it for many years. I was told both yes and no by "people who knew". And yet I was diagnosed with it. No medication, it's a bitch.

I always considered therapy to be stupid, now I have to try it? How much does it cost? I have the most expensive and shittiest health insurance possible.

I hate the people who say, "how can you be depressed? You have a great family, your health, and a decent job?"

I reply, "yeah that's why I know it's depression, because I have no logical reason to feel like shit, but I do."


Drop out of the race and move to amsterdam for 5 years

Believe me, if I didn't have a family, I would quit my job and live in a camper and do something I truly love for a living.

Tatyana
07-08-2009, 02:22 PM
You also want to eliminate any biochemical disturbances first.

General screen:

CBC
BUN
Liver function test
TSH
Testosterone
LH/FSH
Cortisol
Oestradiol
Fasting Lipids
Fasting glucose

What is the fat content of your diet like?

Have you had any previous blood work? If you are dieting, a drop in cholesterol levels can precipitate depression.

If you do want something to take to see if you have improvements, the essential fatty acids and 1500 mg of good quality St. John's Wort is just as effective as pharma SSRIs, MAOIs.

Linde K, Berner MM, Kriston L (2008). "St John's wort for major depression". Cochrane Database Syst Rev 8 (4): CD000448. doi:10.1002/14651858.CD000448.pub3 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1002%2F14651858.CD000448.pub3). PMID 18843608 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18843608).

gman
07-08-2009, 02:26 PM
Tatyana, thanks, I am in the middle of TRT. I had all those tests after 8 weeks, I am on week 16 now. All levels were pretty decent. My estradiol was ok because of the arimidex I am taking.

Only thing slightly out is my thyroid, TSH of around 3.0.

I used my depression as one of my several reasons for TRT, hoping it would help, but it seems to not have been the reason for my depression.

Another piece of info that might be pertinent is I had urinalysis of neurotransmitters done about a year ago. I have heard that testing them through urine is not really meaningful, but anyway, my serotonin and norepenephrine levels were way low according to the test.

Curt James
07-08-2009, 02:28 PM
How can you tell if you are depressed for real vs you only think you are depressed?

I have heard it referred to as clinical vs situational depression as well.

I am depressed as hell to the point of listlessness. I have done zero work at the office for over 2 weeks now, just sit and think about how depressed I am.

Hate my career path, hate my financial situation, feel like shit because I fail at dieting every single time, have done hardly anything in my life to help others and basically have this phrase running through my mind a lot: You are a failure, just give up.

The only thing I am keeping up with is my training schedule, never miss, and never will. It is keeping me going, to be honest.

How do I know whether this is real depression or am I just a crybaby and a 47 year old going through the typical male midlife crisis?

I always hate the idea of telling some doctor something that they're going to write in a record somewhere.

And the doctor is, more than likely, more screwed up than I am anyway.

If I'm ever feeling down then I rely heavily on comedy. Go to YouTube and check out Katt Williams or any number of other comedians. Lifts my spirits.

So far as failing at the diets go, purchase Ell Darden's one book.

Amazon.com: The New High Intensity Training: The Best Muscle-Building System You've Never Tried: Ellington Darden Ph.D.: Books

The diet I used to drop all the f****** fat is in that book. I lost a lot of muscle, too. What little I have, yeah, but the fat was toast.

Calories were 1500 per day or less, cardio (sometimes double sessions) daily, and three days per week (M-W-F) of a full body workout.

You can do this.

Now go to Blockbuster and get a comedy DVD! Or Netflix for five bucks per month.

Oh, http://hulu.com/ has shows online, too.

Depression is nothing to mess with, but I'd try the comedy DVDs for now.

My ex was on Paxil and was seriously depressed. She wouldn't get out of bed on the weekends at times. Hang in there. :o

Curt James
07-08-2009, 02:33 PM
Believe me, if I didn't have a family, I would quit my job and live in a camper and do something I truly love for a living.

That's a troubling statement.

Have you asked your wife? Maybe she's itching to live in a camper.

I mean if your well being and happiness are dependent upon you losing that LIFE AND SPIRIT SUCKING JOB then maybe you should seriously discuss your options with your family.

The irritation at your work may ruin the happiness you share with your family? Dunno. Again, good luck, gman!

gman
07-08-2009, 02:38 PM
Comedy doesn't work, I tried that.

Hard to explain, I just feel helpless and hopeless. Trapped also is a good word.

I am really enjoying Alice in Chains right now, though, especially Down in a Hole. lol listening to that is probably not a good idea!

On the diet, maybe you are right, just blitzkrieg and get it over with. Give up being a bodybuilder until later!

I am not going to take meds for this, I hear too many bad things about them. I just need to get over it, I am just a fucking wussy.

Mr X
07-08-2009, 02:38 PM
Gman I'm not sure what to tell ya..but realize that you have people on here Like Curt and the guys that follow you're training Journal that have your back if you ever get to a point where you're not sure who you can talk to.

It may not sound like much but sharing your issues may help.. I dunno I'm no good at giving serious advices.just know that there are people around that care.

Curt James
07-08-2009, 02:39 PM
Have you had any previous blood work? If you are dieting, a drop in cholesterol levels can precipitate depression.

I mentioned that to my doc recently, by way of a joke.

She scheduled me for a lipid panel and other tests and I had to share my goofball humor:

My cholesterol is low - it's been under 100 in the past - and I've always been proud of that fact. That is until I read an article in the paper that said extremely low cholesterol levels are reportedly related to increased instances of cancer, depression, and suicide.

:eek:

I told her, "Great. I'll find out I have cancer, become depressed, and then kill myself. Hat-trick!"

She laughed but then said that the study is not conclusive. I didn't even know there was a study. Just figured it was fluff inserted in the newspaper for the sole purpose of driving me insane.

:D

Okay, if you're not laughing then hit the ER, brother. :mad:

Tatyana
07-08-2009, 02:42 PM
Tatyana, thanks, I am in the middle of TRT. I had all those tests after 8 weeks, I am on week 16 now. All levels were pretty decent. My estradiol was ok because of the arimidex I am taking.

Only thing slightly out is my thyroid, TSH of around 3.0.

I used my depression as one of my several reasons for TRT, hoping it would help, but it seems to not have been the reason for my depression.

Another piece of info that might be pertinent is I had urinalysis of neurotransmitters done about a year ago. I have heard that testing them through urine is not really meaningful, but anyway, my serotonin and norepenephrine levels were way low according to the test.

No it isn't meaningful, unless you have a faulty blood-brain barrier. If you did, you probably would have died of some sort of meningitis by now.

They would have to do a spinal tap to get anywhere close to analysing your neurotransmitter levels.

Noepinephrine or noradrenaline is also released from your adrenal glands and is related to stress, so low levels are fine.

Curt James
07-08-2009, 02:44 PM
Comedy doesn't work, I tried that.

Hard to explain, I just feel helpless and hopeless. Trapped also is a good word.

I am really enjoying Alice in Chains right now, though, especially Down in a Hole. lol listening to that is probably not a good idea!

On the diet, maybe you are right, just blitzkrieg and get it over with. Give up being a bodybuilder until later!

I am not going to take meds for this, I hear too many bad things about them. I just need to get over it, I am just a fucking wussy.

No.

You're not "just a fucking wussy."

True depression is not something you can just suck up.

Get checked. Get answers. Get help.

Fuck what I said and who cares about what a doctor writes in their little record. Get a doc you can trust and get fixed, bro.

Re the giving up on being a bb, well, you can define yourself however you'd like. I just called myself a guy who wanted to lose some fat. Okay, all the fat. lol

And one benefit of stripping all the excess first is that you'll enjoy a killer rebound!

I've posted this everywhere, but wtf.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/BodySpace/sbstwo.jpg
Sucked down (left) and the rebound

gman
07-08-2009, 02:48 PM
Mr X, I do appreciate it. Having people to talk to really helps.

Curt, that was funny as shit. Unfortunately I have the bizarre cholesterol problem. Great total, low HDL, high LDL.

Tatyana, yeah I figured that it was bogus, it was one of those expensive antiaging clinics, and I guessed he was a quack a little too late, $6,000 later.

He told me low norepinephrine was bad because it is the aggression one, and having it low meant I was probably real passive.

Told me the serotonin was the feel good one, and I could be depressed because of it being low. He also said that might be why I was always hungry for crappy carbs, eating them gives a serotonin boost.

Bogus, all of it.

gman
07-08-2009, 02:52 PM
Curt, you look like crap at 149, great on the rebound though!

I know I need to at least keep talking it out, not sure what else to do, but maybe talking will do some good.

gman
07-08-2009, 02:55 PM
BTW in case you need to know:

Grandfather who I never met (he was biological grandfather, my dad was adopted) killed himself at 50.

My dad suffered a lot of depression. (he died at 44 of heart disease, in 1985)

My sis is bipolar

My son is in the early stages of treatment for what is called unspecified mood disorder, bipolar is a very difficult diagnosis according to his psychiatrist.

I figured I had somehow escaped this stuff, but maybe not. The cards are stacked against me a little. Brain chemistry is off somewhere through my dad's side.

Ninja Loco
07-08-2009, 03:00 PM
I always considered therapy to be stupid, now I have to try it? How much does it cost? I have the most expensive and shittiest health insurance possible.

I hate the people who say, "how can you be depressed? You have a great family, your health, and a decent job?"

I reply, "yeah that's why I know it's depression, because I have no logical reason to feel like shit, but I do."



Believe me, if I didn't have a family, I would quit my job and live in a camper and do something I truly love for a living.
I thought so too. That and I hate western doctors with a passion. But it's a serious condition and I battle it every day. I was fortunate enough to find someone low cost, but that was still expensive. I went, got diagnosed, and that helped a lot because now i KNOW, instead of just speculating. I wouldnt listen to what one person on this forum (save for what Tat just said) had to say about this. Being "helpfull" and giving cheery advice is not what you need. It may be chemical, mental, or diet related, but it is still a serious and ultimately mental disorder that should be taken as seriously as possible. I cant take medication, Im on my own. But at least I know what I have and I can fight those demons when they come because now I know what they are. I battle with them at least once a day, every day. Suicidal? If my beliefs didnt keep me from doing it for stupid reasons I would already have a long time ago. It's not funny, bro..... get to a therapist. We may not like them, but it's all we have.


Or you can just keep speculatiing, listening to well wishers, and getting worse.

gman
07-08-2009, 03:12 PM
Ninja,

I may just do that therapy thing. I have to figure out how to pay for it first, but as they say, health care is a privilege, not a right.

It could be that I just need a kick in the ass, but I will never know without talking to a therapist, I guess.

What do they do, seriously? I know they can't be like the ones on tv, where you just tell them stuff and they never say anything back. How do they help, I am really curious?

ctrl
07-08-2009, 03:18 PM
Ninja, as always you amazing me with your words and i missed chatting with ya!!

Gman, i feel the same as you do and there is no kick in the ass to fix it. i can't offer much advice cuz i'm in the same boat but we can chat anytime!

gman
07-08-2009, 03:25 PM
I am just glad that I am not suicidal and have no desire to drink or drug myself into numbness. I take this as a good sign.

Ninja Loco
07-08-2009, 03:25 PM
Ninja,

I may just do that therapy thing. I have to figure out how to pay for it first, but as they say, health care is a privilege, not a right.

It could be that I just need a kick in the ass, but I will never know without talking to a therapist, I guess.

What do they do, seriously? I know they can't be like the ones on tv, where you just tell them stuff and they never say anything back. How do they help, I am really curious?
All I can tell you about is my experience. They talk to you, one on one, in private. And it may take more than one session. And unlike any one here on this or any other form, they are trained to KNOW what to listen for. They LISTEN, they dont just hear with the intention of a qick, quirky diagnosis. They also listen to HOW you say it and yor mannerisms and body language. Ive always thought I was a pretty open book because I dont lie and anyone is free to ask me anyting. I may not answer but that's another story. But honesty is not the same as being open, and Ive never been more open with someone than I was with him. Once again, just my experience, but things that I never thought would be related ended up being related. Quite a shock. They help you find the root of it. We talked until I ran out of money. And yes, diet and everything was looked at too. But by then I had a grasp of things and now I just do my best because I know what enemy Im fighting. My case is not treatable with medication. Like I said, Im on my own.


BUT... they may do something different with you. Each person is a unique case. That's all I can tell you and, truthfully, am willing to tell you out here.

Ninja Loco
07-08-2009, 03:27 PM
Ninja, as always you amazing me with your words and i missed chatting with ya!!

Gman, i feel the same as you do and there is no kick in the ass to fix it. i can't offer much advice cuz i'm in the same boat but we can chat anytime!
MY BROTHER!!! HA HA..... glad to see you over here!! As always, you humble me with your words. Glad you and Cassie are coming up this weekend!!

Ninja Loco
07-08-2009, 03:28 PM
I am just glad that I am not suicidal and have no desire to drink or drug myself into numbness. I take this as a good sign.
That is a VERY good sign. Catch this thing before it gets there.

BEAST MODE
07-08-2009, 03:30 PM
G, I have said it before, but I would definitely recommend seeing a therapist bro. The one I see kind of lets me talk for the first half, then she responds w/ what she sees and kinda lets me agree or disagree. She's been very helpful in pointing things out to me that I wouldn't have otherwise realized unless someone verbalized it and explained why they saw it that way. I like having the outsider's view, especially from someone who does not know me at all outside of our hour, and someone who is trained to not be judgmental. Remember, mental health is just as important as physical health. If you're taking care of your body the way you do right now, why not do the same for your mind? I know it may cost some money, but I think if you look around you will surely find something that works. Check w/ your insurance company and see if they can give you some providers to look into.

BEAST MODE
07-08-2009, 03:31 PM
All I can tell you about is my experience. They talk to you, one on one, in private. And it may take more than one session. And unlike any one here on this or any other form, they are trained to KNOW what to listen for. They LISTEN, they dont just hear with the intention of a qick, quirky diagnosis. They also listen to HOW you say it and yor mannerisms and body language. Ive always thought I was a pretty open book because I dont lie and anyone is free to ask me anyting. I may not answer but that's another story. But honesty is not the same as being open, and Ive never been more open with someone than I was with him. Once again, just my experience, but things that I never thought would be related ended up being related. Quite a shock. They help you find the root of it. We talked until I ran out of money. And yes, diet and everything was looked at too. But by then I had a grasp of things and now I just do my best because I know what enemy Im fighting. My case is not treatable with medication. Like I said, Im on my own.


BUT... they may do something different with you. Each person is a unique case. That's all I can tell you and, truthfully, am willing to tell you out here.

Same here. Very surprising the things I found out about myself.

gman
07-08-2009, 03:42 PM
That sounds good. Get at the root of it. I have no idea where it came from. I don't have the typical reasons like a bad childhood, abuse by a relative, abandonment, etc.

I do know that I have always had zero self esteem, even as a 5 and 6 year old, I remember not trying stuff because I was afraid I would do poorly. I am like that even to this day.

I have also what I like to call fear of success. The warped flip side of fear of failure. I do things to the verge of completion, then I quit. Take the dieting for example: I have gotten down to 190, only about 10 lbs from my long term goal, twice in the past couple of years, then just quit and rebounded. So close to my goal and just gave up. It's in other areas too, I always quit at the moment of truth. I always got "has ability, lacks effort" comments on my report cards.

My dad did the following for a living in the 23 years from when I was born until he passed away: enlisted Navy, transferred Army, transferred Air Force, sold insurance, sold cash registers, Methodist Minister, Country DJ, Insurance sales again, delivery driver for a dairy, cook on a tugboat, truck driver (he stayed with this one once he got into it).

He insisted I major in accounting so I could get a job, and told me to stick with one thing all my life and get ahead that way. I wanted to major in history. I have always hated accounting and do it just for a paycheck. Now I am trapped! I think I have a lot of the wanderlust in me that he had, and it's driving me crazy sitting at a desk all day. BTW, his real father and grandfather were the same way as he was, so that has some sort of genetic component to it, because he never knew either of them!

I have racked my memories trying to find something to blame this on, but I think I need help doing it. I will promise to look into therapy, not saying it will happen tomorrow or next week, but I will look into it.

Curt James
07-08-2009, 03:44 PM
Curt, you look like crap at 149

THANK YOU, BROTHER! :beerbang:

What are friends for? :D



:waveyfinger:

ctrl
07-08-2009, 03:44 PM
great thread and i needed this more then you guys know...

thank you GMAN and all you guys

gman
07-08-2009, 03:45 PM
I promise to talk to a therapist, but just can't afford to use health insurance to pay for it. My premiums were raised to $1250 a month in april, before my son's psychiatric care was even done, so I know next april they will go up to $1800-2400 a month. I can't afford to give them excuse to drive them up even more. I will have to save up some money to pay cash for the therapy.

Ninja Loco
07-08-2009, 03:45 PM
You're opening up, bro, that's a good start. I think I kinda like the way Rich made it out to be: professional introspection where a non partison party voices what your concience is telling you.

Ninja Loco
07-08-2009, 03:47 PM
I promise to talk to a therapist, but just can't afford to use health insurance to pay for it. My premiums were raised to $1250 a month in april, before my son's psychiatric care was even done, so I know next april they will go up to $1800-2400 a month. I can't afford to give them excuse to drive them up even more. I will have to save up some money to pay cash for the therapy.
Then do like I did.... search your city and call and ask to see who is willing to work with you. Many wont, I had the door slammed in my face many hundreds of times going through the phone book. It was humiliating and further depressing.... So be prepared for that because receptionists dont give a fuck. But you only need to find that one person that says yes.

gman
07-08-2009, 03:47 PM
THANK YOU, BROTHER! :beerbang:

What are friends for? :D



:waveyfinger:

Haha, just trying to give you a great reason to get back up to 175-180.
You know I am teasing, I hope! lol


great thread and i needed this more then you guys know...

thank you GMAN and all you guys

I haven't really done much, but your welcome. Maybe just having a guy open up so much might be of help to you to see you aren't the only one!

BEAST MODE
07-08-2009, 03:48 PM
You're opening up, bro, that's a good start. I think I kinda like the way Rich made it out to be: professional introspection where a non partison party voices what your concience is telling you.

Well put Ninja!

gman
07-08-2009, 03:51 PM
R & NL

Thanks for telling me what it's like. Makes it a little less frightening to think about. I was always in the dark about what they really do. All I knew about them was what I saw on Monk and House. complete BS probably!

I am also scared to find out I guess. I have no fucking clue what turned me out this way. I wish it had been something traumatic, at least I would have a reason to go by.

ctrl
07-08-2009, 03:54 PM
Haha, just trying to give you a great reason to get back up to 175-180.
You know I am teasing, I hope! lol



I haven't really done much, but your welcome. Maybe just having a guy open up so much might be of help to you to see you aren't the only one!


you were brave enough to start the thread and share yourself and get me thinking more positive about things!

BEAST MODE
07-08-2009, 03:55 PM
It's surprising what you find out G. It may not be exactly what you think that is causing it if it's something like that. And I don't know about the others who have been, but my therapist doesn't have me lay on a couch or cry into a pillow or anything like that. We just sit and talk. But like ninja said, they're trained to pick up on things that we don't know we're doing or even saying, which lets them kinda figure out what's causing it.

Ninja Loco
07-08-2009, 04:00 PM
R & NL

Thanks for telling me what it's like. Makes it a little less frightening to think about. I was always in the dark about what they really do. All I knew about them was what I saw on Monk and House. complete BS probably!

I am also scared to find out I guess. I have no fucking clue what turned me out this way. I wish it had been something traumatic, at least I would have a reason to go by.I was always scared too. Mainly because I thought that from that moment on, there was going to be a record that could be interpreted as me being a mental nut case. Always had a fear that someone would use that against me. But I was ready to die, and it was going to happen that weekend. Know what did it for me? Tony Soprano. My sister rented the first season and we watched it all in one night. Turns out that it was a lot like that.... the listening and the gentle banter, looking and digging for further insight into what you just said. There is ALWAYS a reason for why we say what we say. Furthermore, always a reason for what we say HOW we say it. It's fascinating actually. My Bushido beliefs were never judged, which was a blessing in itself because I was NOT planning to divulge that information. But they are masters at digging..... and Im glad I did



Oh and in case you're wondering....... no I didnt commit Seppuku.

gman
07-08-2009, 04:02 PM
Thanks for sharing that stuff, guys. I will look for some therapists, I promise.

gman
07-08-2009, 04:23 PM
found some stuff that is intersting and explains therapy a little more.
this is one page of many on the site.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/about-cognitive-psychotherapy/

Goodfellas
07-08-2009, 04:56 PM
I always considered therapy to be stupid, now I have to try it? How much does it cost? I have the most expensive and shittiest health insurance possible.

I hate the people who say, "how can you be depressed? You have a great family, your health, and a decent job?"

I reply, "yeah that's why I know it's depression, because I have no logical reason to feel like shit, but I do."



Believe me, if I didn't have a family, I would quit my job and live in a camper and do something I truly love for a living.

Call the 800 number on the back of your insurance card and ask how much for a psych visit. I have a $15 copay for a in network provider.

Any other questions holler me via pm been doing this 13 years insurance.

gman
07-08-2009, 05:23 PM
Thanks Goodfellas. I know it's covered, but I don't want to use insurance, my rates are already through the roof with no end in sight. I think I can go 10 times before it shuts off from the insurance company.

Tatyana
07-10-2009, 02:16 PM
1: Phytomedicine. 2009 Apr;16(4):277-83. Epub 2009 Mar 18. Links
Long-term effects of St. John's wort (Hypericum perforatum) treatment: a 1-year safety study in mild to moderate depression.Brattström A.
Max Zeller Söhne Zeller AG, Seeblickstr. 4, CH-8590 Romanshorn, Switzerland. [email protected] ([email protected])

Long-term safety and the effects of a St. John's wort (SJW) extract Ze 117 (Hypericum perforatum) were evaluated in the treatment of patients with depression. An open multicentre safety study with 440 out-patients suffering from mild to moderate depression according to ICD-10 was conducted. Patients were treated for up to 1 year with 500 mg St. John's wort extract per day (Ze 117). Evaluation criteria were safety (adverse event frequency) and influence on depression (HAM-D, CGI). Two hundred and seventeen (49%) patients reported 504 adverse events, 30 (6%) of which were possibly or probably related to the treatment. Gastrointestinal and skin complaints were the most common events associated with treatment. No age-related difference in the safety of the applied medication was found. The long-term intake of up to 1 year of the study medication did not result in any changes in clinical chemistry and electrocardiogram recordings. Body mass index (BMI) did not change either. Mean HAM-D scores decreased steadily from 20.58 at baseline to 12.07 at week 26 and to 11.18 at week 52. Mean CGI scores decreased from 3.99 to 2.20 at week 26 and 2.19 at week 52. Therefore, St. John's wort extract ZE 117 is a safe and effective way to treat mild to moderate depression over long periods of time, and therefore seems especially suitable for a relapse prevention.

1: J Clin Psychopharmacol. 2005 Oct;25(5):441-7. Links
A Double-blind, randomized trial of St John's wort, fluoxetine, and placebo in major depressive disorder.Fava M, Alpert J, Nierenberg AA, Mischoulon D, Otto MW, Zajecka J, Murck H, Rosenbaum JF.
Depression Clinical and Research Program, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA 02114, USA. [email protected] ([email protected])

OBJECTIVE: This study looks to compare the antidepressant efficacy and safety of a standardized extract of St John's wort with both placebo and fluoxetine. METHOD: After a 1-week single-blind washout, patients with major depressive disorder diagnosed by Structured Clinical Interview for Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition were randomized to 12 weeks of double-blind treatment with LI-160 St John's wort extract (900 mg/d), fluoxetine (20 mg/d), or placebo. The 17-item Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HAMD-17) was the primary efficacy measure, and analysis of covariance was used to compare differences in end point HAMD-17 scores across the 3 treatment groups, treating the baseline HAMD-17 as the covariate. RESULTS: One hundred thirty-five patients (57% women; mean age, 37.3 +/- 11.0; mean HAMD-17, 19.7 +/- 3.2) were randomized to double-blind treatment and were included in the intent-to-treat analyses. Analysis of covariance analyses showed lower mean HAMD-17 scores at end point in the St John's wort group (n = 45; mean +/- SD, 10.2 +/- 6.6) compared with the fluoxetine group (n = 47; 13.3 +/- 7.3; P < 0.03) and a trend toward a similar finding relative to the placebo group (n = 43; 12.6 +/- 6.4; P = 0.096). There was also a trend toward higher rates of remission (HAMD-17 <http://www.getbig.com/boards/Smileys/classic/cool.gif in the St John's wort group (38%) compared with the fluoxetine group (30%) and the placebo group (21%). Overall, St John's wort appeared to be safe and well tolerated. CONCLUSION: St John's wort was significantly more effective than fluoxetine and showed a trend toward superiority over placebo. A (25%) smaller than planned sample size is likely to account for the lack of statistical significance for the advantage (indicating a moderate effect size, d = 0.45) of St John's wort over placebo.


ANOTHER


Main results
A total of 29 trials (5489 patients) including 18 comparisons with placebo and 17 comparisons with synthetic standard antidepressants met the inclusion criteria. Results of placebo-controlled trials showed marked heterogeneity. In nine larger trials the combined response rate ratio (RR) for hypericum extracts compared with placebo was 1.28 (95% confidence interval (CI), 1.10 to 1.49) and from nine smaller trials was 1.87 (95% CI, 1.22 to 2.87). Results of trials comparing hypericum extracts and standard antidepressants were statistically homogeneous. Compared with tri- or tetracyclic antidepressants and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), respectively, RRs were 1.02 (95% CI, 0.90 to 1.15; 5 trials) and 1.00 (95% CI, 0.90 to 1.11; 12 trials). Both in placebo-controlled trials and in comparisons with standard antidepressants, trials from German-speaking countries reported findings more favourable to hypericum. Patients given hypericum extracts dropped out of trials due to adverse effects less frequently than those given older antidepressants (odds ratio (OR) 0.24; 95% CI, 0.13 to 0.46) or SSRIs (OR 0.53, 95% CI, 0.34-0.83).

Authors' conclusions
The available evidence suggests that the hypericum extracts tested in the included trials a) are superior to placebo in patients with major depression; b) are similarly effective as standard antidepressants; c) and have fewer side effects than standard antidepressants. The association of country of origin and precision with effects sizes complicates the interpretation.


There are three other studies on MDD and SJW one showing it effective and two showing it is not, the effective one is newer while the two negatives are back in 2001. They are also flawed in the temporal variable, giving only 4 weeks to measure effect, quite a retarded proposal.

Read before you shoot down potentially important information that can help others. SJW is the best antidepressant in terms of effects to side effects. While i would choose others in extreme cases with co-morbid issues, it is a better option then SSRIS which are no more effective then placebo according to pooling of all data availible.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081007192435.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081007192435.htm)


"Overall, we found that the St. John's wort extracts tested in the trials were superior to placebos and as effective as standard antidepressants, with fewer side effects," says lead researcher, Klaus Linde of the Centre for Complementary Medicine in Munich, Germany.

Goodfellas
07-10-2009, 02:24 PM
Thanks Goodfellas. I know it's covered, but I don't want to use insurance, my rates are already through the roof with no end in sight. I think I can go 10 times before it shuts off from the insurance company.


No cheaper plans available? Mine gives you money back for being healthy. Speak to your group leader or Human Resources. I never heard of such high premiums. Mine is like $140 for family coverage and I get pissed :o

gman
07-10-2009, 04:13 PM
self employed, bro, family coverage sucks.

Ninja Loco
07-11-2009, 01:21 AM
self employed, bro, family coverage sucks.
Oh boy do I ever feel your pain......

gman
07-11-2009, 07:05 PM
It's part of what has me depressed. The thought that 15-20% of my gross income is going to the health insurance company every month is enough to make me sick to my stomach.

Goodfellas
07-11-2009, 07:19 PM
Damn I feel for ya bro. Insurance sucks. Try working at one for 13 years. You would really be depressed at the shit behind the scenes.

bleckrocks
07-11-2009, 11:10 PM
YouTube - Alive




"Everyday is a new day"



"Tell the world how i feel inside even though
it may cost me everything"

Frosty
07-14-2009, 04:45 PM
gman, I'm not saying this is the solution to all your problems but in my experience this sort of thing can really help.

Number 1 is taking lots of fish oil, and if you get hardly any sun or live in a not so sunny climate cod liver oil. We're talking 40-50g per day. This can help balance your emotions and make your brain function better.

SUN is a great thing to help with depression. If you can't get it tanning beds are alright. Even blue spectrum light therapy in the mornings for 15-30 mins of the right intensity and frequency can help. This helps modulate brain chemistry in a good way. (fresh air, exercise, and sun is great medicine, IMO).

Those two things are huge in my experience. It doesn't work overnight but it helps make sure your body/mind is working better which tends to allow you to deal with problems easier. If you're doing a keto diet even something like 5-HTP taken between meals in the evening can help modulate mood. Good sleep is another vital thing for proper brain function....I feel like hell and don't have motivation to do much when I don't sleep well for more than a couple days.

Again this isn't going to solve your problems, but IMO you have to tackle mental issues from many angles and your diet and lifestyle is going to majorly impact how your brain functions.

debbiebramwell
07-14-2009, 11:11 PM
Hi there.....I wanted to jump in and share a little bit......I was very unhappy(depressed), insecure/no confidence, negative etc when I was younger.....there was a seed in me that went searching for answers.....thats when I picked up my first personal growth book(that led to a million books thereafter) and my journey began studying psychology, the mind, law of attraction, success etc.....most people set goals in life to buy all kinds of expensive toys and make lots of money but my biggest goal was "to be happy" Personal growth became my biggest passion in life and now I can say I am really happy! I read book after book, went to seminars, did things like tony robbins personal power program(which is why I even did my first bbing show.....to conquer my fear of being up in front of people, to improve physically and just get out of my box!!) All it comes down to is changing the way you think because what you think about creates how you feel....I literally reprogrammed the computer(my brain) to think differently.......I am a completely different person and now know whats possible....I dont believe that drugs are the answer(rarely) You mentioned not having money for a therapist(got to find the right one) so in the mean time I would find books to read etc......go to a personal growth seminar! Self discovery is amazing! true happiness does not come from the outside world.....you dont need anything to be happy right now....it is an attitude and a choice and a way of looking at things......I could go on and on....I just want you to know that you really can change yourself on the inside and when you do everything in the outer world will change! ;)

bean44
07-15-2009, 06:50 AM
R & NL

Thanks for telling me what it's like. Makes it a little less frightening to think about. I was always in the dark about what they really do. All I knew about them was what I saw on Monk and House. complete BS probably!

I am also scared to find out I guess. I have no fucking clue what turned me out this way. I wish it had been something traumatic, at least I would have a reason to go by.
I just thought that I would put in my 2cents. From my experience it is both nature and nuture. About 15yrs. ago my ex, who is a doctor put me on zoloft, and it did make a difference. It kind of take the edge off, and seems to make my skin not so thin. Don't do anything drastic until you talk to someone, or go on meds, or both. I ended up quiting a very good job, and fianancially have never been the same. I could go on forever, and bore the shit out of you, but to make a long story short I have a good girl now and I'm reasonably happy. Talk to your primary doc, they can get you on anti-depressents. You really have nothing to lose. Good luck G:)

gman
07-15-2009, 11:08 AM
Thanks for all the concern and the great advice and stories of your own struggles. It really helps to find out I am not alone. I am actually feeling a little better this week, but I have gotten a couple of names to call to discuss counseling with, and I am going to try to see my family doc in the next few days and see what he has to say.

Mr X
07-15-2009, 11:13 AM
Thanks for all the concern and the great advice and stories of your own struggles. It really helps to find out I am not alone. I am actually feeling a little better this week, but I have gotten a couple of names to call to discuss counseling with, and I am going to try to see my family doc in the next few days and see what he has to say.

Good to hear that man.

gman
07-15-2009, 11:30 AM
Thanks, Mr X

I think what Debbie says is true. I am trying to look at the good side of my life and ignore the bad. I am sure 90% of the world would gladly trade places with me.

Goodfellas
07-15-2009, 05:04 PM
Take things one hour at a time if you have to. That is what I do.

Sistersteel
07-15-2009, 08:33 PM
Hi there.....I wanted to jump in and share a little bit......I was very unhappy(depressed), insecure/no confidence, negative etc when I was younger.....there was a seed in me that went searching for answers.....thats when I picked up my first personal growth book(that led to a million books thereafter) and my journey began studying psychology, the mind, law of attraction, success etc.....most people set goals in life to buy all kinds of expensive toys and make lots of money but my biggest goal was "to be happy" Personal growth became my biggest passion in life and now I can say I am really happy! I read book after book, went to seminars, did things like tony robbins personal power program(which is why I even did my first bbing show.....to conquer my fear of being up in front of people, to improve physically and just get out of my box!!) All it comes down to is changing the way you think because what you think about creates how you feel....I literally reprogrammed the computer(my brain) to think differently.......I am a completely different person and now know whats possible....I dont believe that drugs are the answer(rarely) You mentioned not having money for a therapist(got to find the right one) so in the mean time I would find books to read etc......go to a personal growth seminar! Self discovery is amazing! true happiness does not come from the outside world.....you dont need anything to be happy right now....it is an attitude and a choice and a way of looking at things......I could go on and on....I just want you to know that you really can change yourself on the inside and when you do everything in the outer world will change! ;)


Debbie, "The Secret" is a good documentary on perception and happiness, if you have not seen it already.

http://www.thesecret.tv/

Goodfellas
07-19-2009, 10:10 AM
I feel it is hopeless with depression and anxiety. Doctors and meds are freaking worthless.

Goodfellas
07-19-2009, 05:20 PM
You cant drag me down bro. Type whatever you want about me I am not playing your game.

Neo_flux
07-20-2009, 05:03 AM
I've been down for about 3-4 year now because of my back and shoulder injury's and not being able to train, doc wanted to prescribe some anti depressants but ended up not. It started to be real bothersome when i had no energy at all couldn't even walk for 20 minuted without getting really fatigued. But starting to rebound because i started taking St John's wort. Sure is good stuff!

Goodfellas
07-20-2009, 05:50 AM
Glad to hear!!

Shawn Bellon
07-23-2009, 12:20 AM
Debbie, "The Secret" is a good documentary on perception and happiness, if you have not seen it already.

http://www.thesecret.tv/

Saw this as well. And honestly it has so much merit. Growing up in a toxic family really did damage to my mindset in life. Also, I started reading my bible again. I am not a Bible thumper but its helped me focus on bigger things than myself with some humbling truths. I also read alot from Dr. Dwayne Dyer:
http://www.drwaynedyer.com/daily-inspiration

Shawn Bellon
07-23-2009, 12:24 AM
o2MqciSMOmk

antonbrn
07-23-2009, 02:34 AM
Great statement, I agree



Saw this as well. And honestly it has so much merit. Growing up in a toxic family really did damage to my mindset in life. Also, I started reading my bible again. I am not a Bible thumper but its helped me focus on bigger things than myself with some humbling truths. I also read alot from Dr. Dwayne Dyer:
http://www.drwaynedyer.com/daily-inspiration

Goodfellas
07-25-2009, 01:34 PM
I actually left the house today and had lunch at a restaurant. No anxiety attacks :)

Depression is still tough when I am by myself..

Shawn Bellon
07-25-2009, 01:57 PM
Hang in there bro. Thats so cool that you did go out.

Alex England
07-25-2009, 05:09 PM
I try to stay busy. Thats the only advice I have. As soon as I have to much time on my hands and my thoughts turn inwards 'I see a darkness'. The trouble is when depression sets in many people become almost paralized by it, and their inactivity creates a self perpetuating downward spiral. If you can just force yourelf to take some kind of proactive action, no matter how small, it helps.

Sistersteel
07-25-2009, 06:06 PM
An idle mind is a devil's playground....

Shawn Bellon
07-25-2009, 06:10 PM
Like Billy...

http://manoloshoeblog.com/images/idoldull.jpg