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mts
02-18-2009, 03:25 PM
Study done on a combination of DHEA Tribulus, Chrysin, Indole-3-carbinol, Saw palmetto and androstenedione, Showed in increase in Estradiol and estradiol and not Testosterone. Now it could be any one of the products that increased the estrogen but the fact remains that Testosterone was completely unaffected.


"The effects of androgen precursors, combined with herbal extracts designed to enhance testosterone formation and reduce conversion of androgens to estrogens was studied in young men. Subjects performed 3 days of resistance training per week for 8 weeks. Each day during Weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8, subjects consumed either placebo (PL; n = 10) or a supplement (ANDRO-6; n = 10), which contained daily doses of 300 mg androstenedione, 150 mg DHEA, 750 mg Tribulus terrestris, 625 mg Chrysin, 300 mg Indole-3-carbinol, and 540 mg Saw palmetto. Serum androstenedione concentrations were higher in ANDRO-6 after 2, 5, and 8 weeks (p <.05), while serum concentrations of free and total testosterone were unchanged in both groups. Serum estradiol was elevated at Weeks 2, 5, and 8 in ANDRO-6 (p <.05), and serum estrone was elevated at Weeks 5 and 8 (p <.05). Muscle strength increased (p <.05) similarly from Weeks 0 to 4, and again from Weeks 4 to 8 in both treatment groups. The acute effect of one third of the daily dose of ANDRO-6 and PL was studied in 10 men (23 +/- 4 years). Serum androstenedione concentrations were elevated (p <.05) in ANDRO-6 from 150 to 360 min after ingestion, while serum free or total testosterone concentrations were unchanged. These data provide evidence that the addition of these herbal extracts to androstenedione does not result in increased serum testosterone concentrations, reduce the estrogenic effect of androstenedione, and does not augment the adaptations to resistance training."

Frosty
02-18-2009, 03:35 PM
One troubling aspect of testing herbal supplements is that they vary so much. Was the study using a crappy cheap Chinese Tribulus or very high quality Bulgarian Tribulus?

Not saying one way or the other, just that limited studies on herbals where specifics on the source, quality, standardization, etc aren't mentioned makes it almost worthless.

mts
02-18-2009, 06:09 PM
I think you are looking to far into it. 750mg of tribulus should have some result, I don't care where it is from, supplement companies make that stuff up to make it seem they have better quality products. But I will look anyways to see if they list a standardization

Frosty
02-18-2009, 06:12 PM
You see huge variances in nutrients even in normal produce depending on where it's grown and how. You think herbal supplements are any different?

mts
02-18-2009, 06:21 PM
It didn't list the standardization or kind but it claimed it was an extract. Other studies I was looking through only a few produced positive effects in rats and rabbits through injections at high extractions.

mts
02-18-2009, 06:24 PM
You see huge variances in nutrients even in normal produce depending on where it's grown and how. You think herbal supplements are any different?

if it is standardized to a certain concentration I can see it wouldn't make a difference. I don't know if it matters with trib but Yeah i know it matters with some other herbs, I don't think for this study it really matters as it was a test boosters that contained 5 other ingredients

Frosty
02-18-2009, 06:39 PM
I'm not saying I know. Just saying there are a lot of variables when it comes to herbals. Is the one thing it's standardized for the only thing that supposedly does the job? Did they do a real analysis on the herb or did they just buy it from a manufacturer that claims it's standardized for a certain amount? How was it processed and how was it stored? Are any of the important parts perishable? How was it taken? Does it need to be taken with oil, with or without food, and does how it's capsulated matter?

Again I have no idea, but just saying lots of questions when it comes to doing a study with herbals. For me it seems that whatever source or brand they used didn't work.

red barraca
02-19-2009, 08:04 PM
trade that stuff in for big steak and eggs

needtogetaas
02-19-2009, 10:34 PM
Tribulus Terrestris, which contains Protodioscin; the active steroidal sapogenin responsible for stimulating LH in men. However, Tribulus Terrestris PLANT only contains trace amounts of Protodioscin(the active), so consuming the whole plant is useless. Tribulus contains the highest percentage of Protodioscin in the fruits of the plant, which is why this aerial part of the plant is used for extracting the ACTIVES--Protodioscin. Tribulus MUST be STANDARDIZED for at least 10% PROTODIOSCIN in order to be effective. Tribulus is probably the most popular anabolic herb. Unfortunately, it has also been the victim of Supplement Industry DECEIT. As I said, Tribulus Terrestris PLANT is almost USELESS. It is PROTODIOSCIN that matters, and PROTODIOSCIN ONLY! But this is where things get even TRICKIER...

Tribulus contains MANY Frustanol Saponins. BUT, the ONY Frustanol Saponin that matters is PROTODIOSCIN. many supplement companies will sell a Tribulus product containing 40% Frustanol Saponins, but it only has 2% Protodioscin or LESS! Make sure your Tribulus product is STANDRADIZED extract containing 10% Protodioscin or HIGHER

lilarnold
02-20-2009, 12:17 AM
Tribulus Terrestris, which contains Protodioscin; the active steroidal sapogenin responsible for stimulating LH in men. However, Tribulus Terrestris PLANT only contains trace amounts of Protodioscin(the active), so consuming the whole plant is useless. Tribulus contains the highest percentage of Protodioscin in the fruits of the plant, which is why this aerial part of the plant is used for extracting the ACTIVES--Protodioscin. Tribulus MUST be STANDARDIZED for at least 10% PROTODIOSCIN in order to be effective. Tribulus is probably the most popular anabolic herb. Unfortunately, it has also been the victim of Supplement Industry DECEIT. As I said, Tribulus Terrestris PLANT is almost USELESS. It is PROTODIOSCIN that matters, and PROTODIOSCIN ONLY! But this is where things get even TRICKIER...

Tribulus contains MANY Frustanol Saponins. BUT, the ONY Frustanol Saponin that matters is PROTODIOSCIN. many supplement companies will sell a Tribulus product containing 40% Frustanol Saponins, but it only has 2% Protodioscin or LESS! Make sure your Tribulus product is STANDRADIZED extract containing 10% Protodioscin or HIGHER


fantastic info

rich_fox117
02-20-2009, 02:37 AM
i dunno not to sound like a douche cuse i'm not trying to bash Daves shit but how does that make testostolyze look then? i mean how can that work when none of the others do? am i missing something?

mts
02-20-2009, 10:53 AM
i dunno not to sound like a douche cuse i'm not trying to bash Daves shit but how does that make testostolyze look then? i mean how can that work when none of the others do? am i missing something?

Well this was one product that had many different ingredients none of which contains 6-oxo which is the main ingredient in testostolyze. Testostolyze contains 6-OXO which is "The metabolism of 4-androstene-3,6,17-trione (AT), previously described as a suicide substrate for aromatase, and its irreversible binding to aromatase"
It showed that it really does inhibit aromatase and increase testosterone.

rich_fox117
02-20-2009, 01:38 PM
Well this was one product that had many different ingredients none of which contains 6-oxo which is the main ingredient in testostolyze. Testostolyze contains 6-OXO which is "The metabolism of 4-androstene-3,6,17-trione (AT), previously described as a suicide substrate for aromatase, and its irreversible binding to aromatase"
It showed that it really does inhibit aromatase and increase testosterone.

oh....well sweet then, i'm glad i can still buy some when i'm not poor :p

needtogetaas
02-20-2009, 09:10 PM
fantastic info
Any time bro. :D

BrianNassar
02-21-2009, 12:13 PM
Quick question. I've been on several cycles of real shit in the past as well as taken tons of supplements over the years.

I've been on PRIME for about a month and several people have asked me if I was "saucing" again.

Do you think they are spiking this stuff with something? I do feel great on it.

Thanks!!

BrianNassar
02-24-2009, 01:54 PM
?????????????

MartyMcFly
02-24-2009, 02:33 PM
I've heard from friends they do feel great on PRIME, I'm thinking it could be spiked?

mts
02-27-2009, 09:56 AM
sorry guys i didn't see your post, No i don't think prime is spiked I know Drug free powerlifters that take it and don't pop on the drug test, but there are some prohormones out that don't show up on the drug test. I did take a OTC supplement before were it showed up on a test and I had to take a retest, Not cool

Zetawill
02-27-2009, 04:25 PM
It is PROTODIOSCIN that matters, and PROTODIOSCIN ONLY! But this is where things get even TRICKIER...
Tribulus contains MANY Frustanol Saponins. BUT, the ONY Frustanol Saponin that matters is PROTODIOSCIN. many supplement companies will sell a Tribulus product containing 40% Frustanol Saponins, but it only has 2% Protodioscin or LESS! Make sure your Tribulus product is STANDRADIZED extract containing 10% Protodioscin or HIGHER


EXCELLENT post and counter to the study. I love Tribulus but won't buy it unless I can see the broken down standardized amount. The best one I've found so far is a 6-oxo and Protodioscin combo called Androbolix from a little known company called Biorythm.......I LOVE THIS STUFF!!!

thepump
02-27-2009, 06:05 PM
works for me

even made me more agressive in the bedroom

needtogetaas
02-28-2009, 03:38 AM
EXCELLENT post and counter to the study. I love Tribulus but won't buy it unless I can see the broken down standardized amount. The best one I've found so far is a 6-oxo and Protodioscin combo called Androbolix from a little known company called Biorythm.......I LOVE THIS STUFF!!!
Yes people need to get passed the names of products and get right down to whats in them. If the product seller will not tell you exactly in the products (and propiertary blends don't count) then more then likely the product is crap.

WILDMAN
03-01-2009, 09:04 AM
I used pro source, androtest witch is supposedly the purist protdioscin product available. I tested before and after. My estrogen went from 30 to 240! The healthy range of the test was 5-40. my free test also plummeted below what is considered healthy.

Bacon Boy
03-01-2009, 12:50 PM
Quick question. I've been on several cycles of real shit in the past as well as taken tons of supplements over the years.

I've been on PRIME for about a month and several people have asked me if I was "saucing" again.

Do you think they are spiking this stuff with something? I do feel great on it.

Thanks!!

USP labs stuff works well from what I have heard and I have also heard from a lot of people they think it spiked, just what I heard though!