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Klaus Urine
07-16-2009, 06:19 PM
I don't know the first thing about them. I just know I'm getting sick of feeling bloated all day. Would supplementing these enzymes help? If so, what's the best kind?

Mr. Dead
07-16-2009, 06:27 PM
It depends on the cause of the bloat... Creatine and gas, they do not help with (At least not with me... *LOL*) But, due to eating and feeling overly full they do help some...

MDur8
07-16-2009, 10:20 PM
I don't know the first thing about them. I just know I'm getting sick of feeling bloated all day. Would supplementing these enzymes help? If so, what's the best kind?

I have the same problem when I increase my calories...I like NOW's Super Enzymes, it helps with my bloat and the feeling of food just sitting in my stomach

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/super.html

Frosty
07-17-2009, 02:25 AM
Klaus I'd first question your stomach acid levels. You need to test it with betaine HCl caps. I can post some info on this later since I'm really tired and it's late. This should help with bloating WAY more than enzymes since you need a low enough pH to digest protein and for many of the enzymes in the stomach to even function on the protein. If the stomach acid doesn't work to break down the proteins, enzymes won't act on it well. Also...make sure you CHEW your food and not inhale it for that same reason!!

Klaus Urine
07-17-2009, 02:27 AM
Klaus I'd first question your stomach acid levels. You need to test it with betaine HCl caps. I can post some info on this later since I'm really tired and it's late. This should help with bloating WAY more than enzymes since you need a low enough pH to digest protein and for many of the enzymes in the stomach to even function on the protein. If the stomach acid doesn't work to break down the proteins, enzymes won't act on it well. Also...make sure you CHEW your food and not inhale it for that same reason!!Mmm, interesting. Yeah, it would be great to see some info, thanks.

Mr X
07-17-2009, 02:32 AM
Klaus.. Carl was talking about this on one of the recent Off Topics the one with Vboissiere I think.

Klaus Urine
07-17-2009, 02:38 AM
Klaus.. Carl was talking about this on one of the recent Off Topics the one with Vboissiere I think.
No shit? Man, I have that downloaded, too. Just need to listen to it.

Frosty
07-17-2009, 02:42 AM
No offense to the dudes on Off Topic but they haven't demonstrated a good understanding of this, IMO. I love the show so I'm not trying to bash them, just that I think they're a little off.

Stomach acid is the main thing in protein digestion and so many people don't produce enough of it due to things like stress, some supplements, lifestyle, and lack of nutrients in the diet.

Frosty
07-17-2009, 02:00 PM
The Acid Test

Hydrochloric acid presents a few dilemmas for those of us seeking better supplements on a daily basis.

On one hand, it must be handled with appropriate safety precautions because it is a highly corrosive liquid. It is used in various industrial applications including leather manufacturing and PVC plastic production, as well as the removal of rust from iron and steel.1


Of course another great use for hydrochloric acid, or HCl, is to help us digest our food. Our bodies are protected from this corrosive acid by a mucosal barrier in our GI tracts. Many times when people think they have too much acid, they actually have too little barrier and not enough acid. Yes, this acid is a good thing.


Acid is one of the main things that help us to break down those big forkfuls of food into useable nutrients. Despite the popularity of acid-neutralizing and acid-blocking drugs, stomach acid is crucial not only to health, but also to achieving optimal function. When you block acid, you limit nutrient absorption and create an environment that is actually favorable to disease. Even if you don’t use these drugs, studies dating back over 70 years show that our ability to secrete acid decreases as we age.2-4


Having appropriate acid levels is step one. Before you start analyzing your percentage of fat, carbohydrates and protein intake, make sure your acid level is good. Before you start buying expensive supplements, make sure your acid level is good. Before you start analyzing your sets, reps, tempo and frequency, make sure your acid level is good. If you can’t break down your muscle-building nutrients, you’re putting in a lot of money and hard work and not getting the most from them. Again, it is step one.


Testing acid levels
Fortunately, this is easy to test and easy to fix. Very rarely can one put in so little effort for so much return. In order to test, I like to use a method recommended by Drs. Michael Murray and Joe Pizzorno, NDs.


In the middle of your next solid meal, take one capsule of Digestzyme (200 mg HCL.) Continue to increase the dose by one capsule at each subsequent meal until you can feel warmth in your stomach. DO NOT EXCEED SEVEN CAPSULES.


Once you’ve determined the dose that produces a warm sensation, you now know that similar sized meals require one less tablet than that dose. You have now determined how much acid your body should be producing on its own, but isn’t. (i.e. the dose that you take with every meal.) Smaller meals might require less and larger meals might require more.5 You should immediately notice changes like a decrease in bloating, belching, and less indigestion.


This one little change to your program can have an incredible impact. Protein that never made it to your muscles is suddenly getting broken down for use. Carbohydrates that could have given you energy are now being digested and utilized. Healthy fats that were needed to improve the integrity of your cellular membranes finally have a chance. Expensive supplements that used to just “pass” on by, now get dissolved and released into your system.


Beyond that, acid in your stomach can protect you from bacteria, specifically helicobacter pylori, known to be one of the leading causes of ulcers. There are other things to consider, like enzymes, but the first step is having enough acid. It may sound too simple, but it really can make a huge difference.

Findings from the field
Since writing the article Maximize Your Progress with Hydrochloric Acid, and after giving multiple Biosignature seminars, we have found that an alarming group of people are basically generating very little stomach acid for themselves.

Dr. Bob Ratkowski estimates that 98% of the American population is deficient in HCL because of increased stress levels. I would concur with him on that one, as we have found similar results with our PPC s clientele. Colleagues of mine have found similar results in elite athletes in soccer and rugby. Even young athletes, such as a top college American football player I am training, are turning out to be completely HCL deficient.

Responding to the challenge
In response, we have created a large HCL concentration tablet that contains 650 mg of HCL, 90 mg of pepsin, and 40 mg of Gentian, an herb that stimulates HCL production. The product is called Ultra HCL 2.0.
If you got to the point where seven Digestzymes provokes no reaction in your system, simply replace them with two Ultra HCL 2.0 per meal. The day you encounter a warm sensation, go down to 1 Ultra HCL 2.0 and 2 Digestzymes That dosage will give a total of 1050 mg of HCL instead of 1,300 mg. Over time, simply cut back the total HCL per meal by 200 mg every time you encounter that warm feeling in the stomach.
I am looking forward to seeing you making new progress in the gym.
To order Digestzymes, and Ultra HCL 2.0 , please contact beverly@charlespoliquin.com This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it or phone Poliquin Performance at 401 294 2066. Note: Biosignature alumni students can qualify for a wholesale account.

References
Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid
H.A. Rafsky and M. Weingarten, “A Study of the Gastric Secretory Response in the Aged,” Gastroenterology May (1946): 348-52
D. Davies and T.G. James, “An Investigation into the Gastric Secretion of a Hundred Normal Persons over the Age of Sixty,” Brit J Med i(1930): 1-14
J.H. Baron, “Studies of Basal and Peak Acid Output with an Augmented Histamine Meal, “ Gut 3 (1963):136-144
M. Murray and J. Pizzorno, Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine, Rocklin, CA. Prima Publishing, 1998 pps. 134-137




Source:
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Suppl.../acid-test.php (http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Supplements/acid-test.php)

Klaus Urine
07-17-2009, 05:38 PM
Man, that's very interesting. It's a shame that he's trying to sell something--that always raises my hackles, but it does seem to be supported by studies.

Frosty
07-17-2009, 05:41 PM
Well Klaus I can say I've had plenty of experience with this with myself and many others. I have yet to have someone try the betaine test and not need it. Even my mother took it because docs told her her stomach acid was too high, but apparently it was LOW, and she started using the supplement and all her gas and bloating problems went away. I've seen that with many people so I can definitely back this one up with experience, too.

Klaus Urine
07-17-2009, 05:49 PM
Well Klaus I can say I've had plenty of experience with this with myself and many others. I have yet to have someone try the betaine test and not need it. Even my mother took it because docs told her her stomach acid was too high, but apparently it was LOW, and she started using the supplement and all her gas and bloating problems went away. I've seen that with many people so I can definitely back this one up with experience, too.Great.

I wonder if there's any negative feedback loop that would cause your body to cut its own production.

Tatyana
07-17-2009, 06:13 PM
Great.

I wonder if there's any negative feedback loop that would cause your body to cut its own production.

There are always feedback mechanisms, especially when it deals with something with a pH of 1.

The physiology of the digestive system is quite complicated, there are a number of gut hormones (which are the same as quite a few neurotransmitters) that interact with the nervous system.

HCl is produced by the parietal cells of the stomach, which is necessary for the activation of pepsin, which is a protein digesting enzyme.

Here is the control of parietal cell acid secretion:
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/stomach/parietal.html

Klaus Urine
07-17-2009, 06:19 PM
Sure, but I was wondering if I could reasonably draw the conclusion that supplementing with HCl would be detrimental in the long run to my endogenous production.

I'm not really concerned with exact mechanisms, just net outcomes.

Tatyana
07-17-2009, 06:31 PM
Sure, but I was wondering if I could reasonably draw the conclusion that supplementing with HCl would be detrimental in the long run to my endogenous production.

I'm not really concerned with exact mechanisms, just net outcomes.

Acid secretion is triggered and suppressed by numerous factors other than HCl, I don't think it is a direct feedback relationship so it shouldn't be an issue.

From the quick reading I have done, I think you would have to be more concerned with high levels of calcium, some peptides (present in whey protein), anti-histamines, and low carb dieting (glucagon suppresses HCl secretion) and maybe growth hormone use (the feedback suppression of GH - somatostatin suppresses HCl secretion).

Frosty
07-18-2009, 02:17 AM
Betaine HCl actually helps you restore stomach acid levels. It helps you digest protein properly for amino acids needed for production as well as other nutrients such as actually absorbing zinc and other things.

People I have use it have to taper down the dose over time as their stomach acid levels start to normalize.

Although if you have a ton of stress or use a lot of stimulants you may need it more.

Klaus Urine
07-18-2009, 02:20 AM
Betaine HCl actually helps you restore stomach acid levels. It helps you digest protein properly for amino acids needed for production as well as other nutrients such as actually absorbing zinc and other things.

People I have use it have to taper down the dose over time as their stomach acid levels start to normalize.

Although if you have a ton of stress or use a lot of stimulants you may need it more.Any dosage recommendations?

Frosty
07-18-2009, 02:28 AM
Any dosage recommendations?

Start with 1 cap in the early middle of the meal and take more if needed until you notice some sort of irregularity such as a lot of gurgling, burning, or diarrhea. Then take 1 cap less than that. Take until that amount gives the symptoms, then cut back again until hopefully you get off it completely and have normal stomach acid without supplementation.

Klaus Urine
07-18-2009, 02:32 AM
Wouldn't the amount per cap vary from company to company? Not that it matters; just wondering what a standardish dose is.

Frosty
07-18-2009, 02:44 AM
Almost all the caps are about the same, but regardless the same method applies for using the right amount. If you happened to find a 300mg one you just might have to use twice the caps as you would a 600mg one.

Klaus Urine
07-18-2009, 04:19 AM
Cheers. I need to find some by the sounds of it.

Shadow
07-27-2009, 10:23 PM
This thread is a bit dated, but I wanna bump it. Anybody else got some recommendations?

Klaus Urine
07-27-2009, 11:41 PM
I've been taking that betaine HCl with pepsin. Haven't felt bloated, but I'm not sure as to whether it's just because my body has acclimated to the extra food, or whether I'm getting benefit from the acid.

ReneNicole22
07-30-2009, 08:53 PM
Source Natuarals Daily Essential Enzymes- 1 with each meal.
Dr. Oharrahs Probiotic 12 plus- 2 soft gels daily on empty stomach


Let me know how those work for you :)

Rene' Nicole

DCHMUSCLE88
08-09-2009, 04:15 AM
good suggestion on the probiotic

Frosty
08-09-2009, 01:03 PM
Probiotics are under-rated but often so many brands people buy are cheap crap. Betaine HCl you can get away with cheap stuff, but probiotics you gotta fork over the dough for. However one step at a time. Stomach acid really is the first main step in digestion and without it the rest doesn't matter cause even good bacteria won't break down chunks of undigested protein and vitamins and minerals for you :)

There are so many things that can go wrong with our digestive systems and it's something so unbelievably fundamental to bodybuilding. People talk shit about "all you need is food" and they're correct to a point, however if you can't break down and digest food properly then you're fucked! There's things like bad bacteria/yeast in the esophogus, stomach, intestines, low stomach acid, gall stones, leaky gut (finally something glutamine is REALLY useful for)....enzymes are good but more a supportive role of digestion especially when you're consuming large quantities of cooked food like when bulking.

Klaus Urine
08-09-2009, 04:38 PM
Cheap betaine HCl? Shit, not here. I stopped taking it because it was getting too expensive.

Aaron Singerman
09-01-2009, 02:36 PM
Sending this to Carl... He's done a show on this subject on SHR.

natron
09-01-2009, 03:36 PM
Just to chime in my 2 cents here.

I wouldn't go without a good digestive enzyme product, I use Natural Factors brand, anyhow... Remember a few things.

Take 30-60 minutes before eating, alot of companies recommend with a meal, however they do not work very efficiently in this manner. Also, look for capsules instead of caplets or tablets, for a quicker acting product.

if stiff joints or any inflammatory issues are present, you may want to look for a enzyme product containing bromelaine, which helps reduce negative inflamation (as well as positive ala NSAIDS, although to a much lesser extent)

figurebre
11-09-2009, 11:47 PM
I recently started using acidophulus. I was taking one pill with every meal but I havent gotten to be a slacker with it lately. I think it was making a difference, it made my poop green :)

Gothic Muscle
11-15-2009, 04:50 PM
The Acid Test

Source:
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Suppl.../acid-test.php (http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Supplements/acid-test.php)

Hey Frosty,

I note from the poliquin website the article says to try the protocol with a solid meal and it makes specific mention not to use shakes - it might be optimal with solid food but can it still work with shakes, I mean, I would love to try this protocol but there's no way I can eat 2-3 solid meals while at work, that just ain't gonna happen, there's goto be a shake or two in there somewhere but I don't want to waste time/money if it's going to be less than satisfactory!

Best,

Emz

Frosty
11-15-2009, 11:18 PM
Hey Frosty,

I note from the poliquin website the article says to try the protocol with a solid meal and it makes specific mention not to use shakes - it might be optimal with solid food but can it still work with shakes, I mean, I would love to try this protocol but there's no way I can eat 2-3 solid meals while at work, that just ain't gonna happen, there's goto be a shake or two in there somewhere but I don't want to waste time/money if it's going to be less than satisfactory!

Best,

Emz

I wouldn't do it with whey shakes. They don't require that much stomach acid to digest.

natron
11-15-2009, 11:27 PM
is this in reference to whether or not you can use multi enzymes with protein shakes?

Frosty
11-15-2009, 11:41 PM
is this in reference to whether or not you can use multi enzymes with protein shakes?

Using betaine HCl with shakes. Even when I've needed betaine HCl for meat meals, I've always found it to upset my stomach with whey shakes.

natron
11-15-2009, 11:48 PM
I see, ya, betaine would be a little too acidic.

I was guessing you were speaking of multi enzymes, which I think are great either with meals or shakes.

Frosty
11-16-2009, 12:05 AM
I see, ya, betaine would be a little too acidic.

I was guessing you were speaking of multi enzymes, which I think are great either with meals or shakes.


Definitely. Especially ones that operate in a broad pH range.

Although a good betaine HCl product does contain protein digesting enzymes which is a good thing.

natron
11-16-2009, 12:08 AM
Definitely. Especially ones that operate in a broad pH range.

Although a good betaine HCl product does contain protein digesting enzymes which is a good thing.

I still use a multi enzyme with each and every meal, never cared for the products only containing bromalain and betaine

Gothic Muscle
11-16-2009, 09:59 AM
I wouldn't do it with whey shakes. They don't require that much stomach acid to digest.

Ahh crud!! I take it that a shake that consists of whey/casein in a 60/40 or 50/50 split loaded with flaxseeds and/or psyllium, a touch of greens+ and a few tablespoons of olive/mac/avocado oil won't change that, no? A shake is a shake is a shake!!

What about if I used betaine for the meat n veg meals and taper it down for the shakes and use a specific enzyme product that only contains 2-300 mg betaine like Now foods super digi enzymes??

Or should I just forget the protocol...

Frosty
11-16-2009, 12:18 PM
Ahh crud!! I take it that a shake that consists of whey/casein in a 60/40 or 50/50 split loaded with flaxseeds and/or psyllium, a touch of greens+ and a few tablespoons of olive/mac/avocado oil won't change that, no? A shake is a shake is a shake!!

What about if I used betaine for the meat n veg meals and taper it down for the shakes and use a specific enzyme product that only contains 2-300 mg betaine like Now foods super digi enzymes??

Or should I just forget the protocol...

Use betaine HCl with meat meals. I don't get why it's an issue to not use it with shakes and only use for meat meals.

natron
11-17-2009, 01:07 PM
what exactly is the thought process behind using betaine hcl with high protein meals?

bigtimektz
11-17-2009, 04:01 PM
I still use a multi enzyme with each and every meal, never cared for the products only containing bromalain and betaine

Which product or brand Natron?

Frosty
11-17-2009, 04:06 PM
what exactly is the thought process behind using betaine hcl with high protein meals?

Increasing stomach acidity to digest the protein. Enzymes won't do as much if the protein isn't broken down very well because of poor stomach acid.

natron
11-17-2009, 04:08 PM
Natural Factors High Potency Mult- Enzyme Capsules
http://us.naturalfactors.com/images/products/product_408_41.gif

natron
11-17-2009, 04:11 PM
Increasing stomach acidity to digest the protein. Enzymes won't do as much if the protein isn't broken down very well because of poor stomach acid.


and what is the reason behind poor stomach acid?

Frosty
11-18-2009, 01:47 AM
and what is the reason behind poor stomach acid?


Could be many things. Poor diet, too much stress, lack of certain minerals....

I know for a fact that I can be fine wrt stomach acid (meaning if I take any betaine HCl it burns), but if I start using stimulants then I will soon be able to use betaine HCl with my meals.

Gothic Muscle
11-18-2009, 09:40 AM
I've just picked up some NOW foods Super Digi Enzymes and Doctors Best Betaine HCI which seems pretty decent:

http://www.iherb.com/Betaine-HCI-Pepsin-Gentian-Bitters-120-Capsules/7353?at=0
Betaine HCI650 mg†Pepsin 1:10,00025 mg†Gentian (Gentiana lutea) root20 mg
http://www.iherb.com/Super-Enzymes-180-Capsules/857?at=0
Betaine HCI (from Beets and Molasses) 200 mg* Pancreatin 4X
Supplying: Amylase 20,000 USP units*, Protease 20,000 USP units*, Lipase 3,400 USP units* 200 mg *Ox Bile Extract (45% Cholic Acid) 100 mg *Bromelain 2,400 GDU/g (from Pineapple) 50 mg *Papain 2M USP units/mg Powder (from Papaya) 50 mg *Pepsin NF 1:10M units Powder 50 mg *Papaya Fruit Powder 45 mg *Pineapple Juice Powder 45 mg *Cellulase 1M FCC/g Powder 10 mg

I'll try and work out some kind of protocol that includes betaine for big meat based meals and the digi enzymes for the 3 shakes a day I have, maybe a pure betaine product would have been too strong for shake based meals and why they are not recommended for the protocol, makes sense that if you don't need much acids to digest a shake based meal then a capsule of betaine at this time would be overkill but a less potent enzyme like now at a reduced dose would work fine??