Arginine: The Enemy of Ketosis?

[Lordston]

I just read some studies on Arginine and found that it does not directly affect NO production in the body. What it does do is cause insulin release, EVEN IN THE ABSENCE OF CARBS, which can kick you out of your hard earned state of ketosis. Granted...the insulin spike will drive nutrients into your muscles causeing a greater chance of getting a good pump...hence the misguided promise of better blood fow from greater NO production. This also includes AAKG.

Bottom line...do your research before buying something because of label claims. It may do more/less than you bargained for.

Up for discussion. I am sure there are those out there who are much more versed on the subject. I know that Dave doesn't recommend arginine supplementation in his diet...but I don't think he ever mentioned it would actually kick you out of ketosis.

Lets shed a little more light on this.

Lordston

[Frosty]

Well eating chicken will increase your insulin levels. A whey protein shake increases insulin levels even more. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet that a whey protein shake of 50g increases insulin much more than some arginine for a pump.

This effect is different in the body than when carbs are causing the insulin release.

[Lordston]

Agreed...I believe that keeping your fat intake levels at the correct (high enough) amounts may buffer this affect. If this is, in fact, true...I would like someone to chime in with some science on that. :-)

I have some AAKG and have stopped using it. If it can be used without affecting ketosis in some way...I would like to do that if possible.

[Frosty]

Well keep in mind that lowering glycemic index via fats or fiber may not necessarily decrease the total insulin released. Look at milk...it has a low glycemic index but overall it causes a large amount of insulin secretion, which is why its Insulin Index is very high. From what I've seen there isn't a ton of data out there on subjects like this. The Insulin Index is relatively new and data is limited.

But it doesn't really matter. What matters is that high protein and moderate fats work great at dropping fat and fiber is a good thing that helps. I personally use BCAAs before my workout which definitely increase insulin levels, and it never slows my fat loss (if anything I think it helps).

[Lordston]

Good point...i also use BCAA's before I train. Adding some extra Arginine isn't going to change anything at that stage of the game I would think.

Thanks for your insight Frosty!

[lighthvy]

insulin is just a delivery mechanism. it is triggered whether you have carbs or protein. what will kick you out of ketosis is just the carbs, not the insulin. i personally took 5g of arginine while on dave's diet preworkout. I know arginine cant do much while carbs are low, but I had plenty lying around, and it helped a little. And also, like Fristy, I took BCAA's which are insulinogenic, and didnt experience any problems with ketosis or fat loss.

[Frosty]

Good point...i also use BCAA's before I train. Adding some extra Arginine isn't going to change anything at that stage of the game I would think.

Thanks for your insight Frosty!


Consider glycemic load as well. The GI is using 50g worth, but if you use say, 5g, it doesn't affect insulin anywhere near as much. And on top of that it's around workout time, so yeah :)

[Frosty]

True the hormonal response to amino acids is different from carbs. For example, high GI carbs will lower GH, but aminos and protein will not (even though insulin is elevated). It's a different animal. I know Mauro Di Pasquale has spoken a lot on this, but I wish I was 1% as knowledgeable as he is. Short answer is aminos are fine and and add a nice anabolic kick on a very low carb diet.

[Lordston]

Great advice guys...thanks for clarifying things for us!