PDA

View Full Version : any studies that link a vegan diet to Alzheimers



B7emm
07-26-2009, 01:13 PM
A small town close to home happens to be the home of the adventist comunity. for those who don't know the andventist people do not eat meat meany are ovo-lacto vegetariens but meany are vegin espechly the older people out of the people over 60 that are vegin some thing like 52% have some form of alzheimers. Is this dirrectly conected to the diet that vegins fallow? any thoughts?

Tatyana
07-26-2009, 01:20 PM
No, it is more likely to be a genetic link.

freak
07-26-2009, 01:51 PM
there could be nerve damage in some vegans due to B12 deficiency. best sources of B12 are meat products. B12 is also needed to activate folate, so there could be a compounding problem.

B12 maintains the myelin sheath of nerves so, deficiency causes nerve degeneration the progresses to paralysis if left untreated. the B12 deficiency (possibly compounded with folate deficiency) also causes hypoblastic anemia... nutrition is quite possibly the problem here.

RDFinders
07-26-2009, 01:58 PM
there could be nerve damage in some vegans due to B12 deficiency. best sources of B12 are meat products. B12 is also needed to activate folate, so there could be a compounding problem.

B12 maintains the myelin sheath of nerves so, deficiency causes nerve degeneration the progresses to paralysis if left untreated. the B12 deficiency (possibly compounded with folate deficiency) also causes hypoblastic anemia... nutrition is quite possibly the problem here.
most vegans do not have issues with B12 def. that has been documented. lots of products are fortified with B12 now.

kind of hard to say that a vegan diet is related to the higher incident of alzheimer's. you would have to look at the length of time one was a vegan to try and make a relationship of cause and effect. two - you have to have a control group, and three a group who has been exclusively vegan sense birth to really make a case against it. if the numbers showed that there is a link.

freak
07-26-2009, 02:13 PM
most vegans do not have issues with B12 def. that has been documented. lots of products are fortified with B12 now.
i wasnt saying that B12 deficiency was the cause, i was saying that for SOME it may be a possibility. especially the older people that may have decreased amounts of intrinsic factor. also those who dont follow a balanced or adequate diet.

RDFinders
07-26-2009, 02:16 PM
i wasnt saying that B12 deficiency was the cause, i was saying that for SOME it may be a possibility. especially the older people that may have decreased amounts of intrinsic factor. also those who dont follow a balanced or adequate diet.
no problem. i also have a book that discusses excitotoxins, which may be contributing factor. msg and its derivatives are known for killing dendrites and veggie food has lots of it in along with regular american type foods. that could be a link, but still the study would have to be designed to illustrate the link. then it would be more about ingredients vs the lifestyle.

freak
07-26-2009, 02:20 PM
no problem. i also have a book that discusses excitotoxins, which may be contributing factor. msg and its derivatives are known for killing dendrites and veggie food has lots of it in along with regular american type foods. that could be a link, but still the study would have to be designed to illustrate the link. then it would be more about ingredients vs the lifestyle.
interesting, i seem to remeber reading a post of yours stating that you are a vegetarian. what made you decide to be a vegetarian??

TPT
07-26-2009, 02:22 PM
most vegans do not have issues with B12 def. that has been documented. lots of products are fortified with B12 now.

kind of hard to say that a vegan diet is related to the higher incident of alzheimer's. you would have to look at the length of time one was a vegan to try and make a relationship of cause and effect. two - you have to have a control group, and three a group who has been exclusively vegan sense birth to really make a case against it. if the numbers showed that there is a link.


yes, that is what i meant by "sort of" in the protein thread. the lack of experimental control not withstanding- people have hypothesized that vegans have vit b12 deficiency because of their rigid diets. http://www.vitaminasdelaaalaz.com/salalectura/referencia%2029.pdf (http://www.vitaminasdelaaalaz.com/salalectura/referencia%2029.pdf)

vit b12 or folic acid defieciency can contribute to cardiovascular disease including hyperhomocystienemia. the following study published in new england wasnt experimentally controlled though still provided useful information for plausible risk factors. http://www.bu.edu/alzresearch/team/faculty/documents/SeshadriNEJM2002.pdf

RDFinders
07-26-2009, 02:58 PM
interesting, i seem to remeber reading a post of yours stating that you are a vegetarian. what made you decide to be a vegetarian??
it was a spiritual choice to give up meat and animal derived ingredients. been on this path for over 7 years now.

yes, that is what i meant by "sort of" in the protein thread. the lack of experimental control not withstanding- people have hypothesized that vegans have vit b12 deficiency because of their rigid diets. http://www.vitaminasdelaaalaz.com/salalectura/referencia%2029.pdf (http://www.vitaminasdelaaalaz.com/salalectura/referencia%2029.pdf)

vit b12 or folic acid defieciency can contribute to cardiovascular disease including hyperhomocystienemia. the following study published in new england wasnt experimentally controlled though still provided useful information for plausible risk factors. http://www.bu.edu/alzresearch/team/faculty/documents/SeshadriNEJM2002.pdf
research design is big business if you have the foundation with statistics and how to construct studies to control for limitations as much as possible. with regards to B12 and folic acid def, it stands to reason why the elderly have so many cardiovascular issues.

TPT
07-26-2009, 03:03 PM
it was a spiritual choice to give up meat and animal derived ingredients. been on this path for over 7 years now.

research design is big business if you have the foundation with statistics and how to construct studies to control for limitations as much as possible. with regards to B12 and folic acid def, it stands to reason why the elderly have so many cardiovascular issues.


nice. im an experimental scientist myself. however, with a preference for single-subject experimental designs. forget that group stuff. no such thing as the "hypothetical-average" person. lol.

B7emm
07-26-2009, 03:33 PM
Thank you all for the replies this is something very personal to me my step-grandfather who was the head minister of the adventist Church has developed Alzheimer's along with a large group of the vegan Church members over 60. Out of the 30 or so members of my family also my step-mothers family who are vegan half or more have developed Alzheimer's or some form of dementia. Most of the older people in the Church do not take any vitamins or supplements of any kind for fear of animal protein contamination. because the theology of the religion prohibits consuming animal products.

freak
07-26-2009, 03:48 PM
Thank you all for the replies this is something very personal to me my step-grandfather who was the head minister of the adventist Church has developed Alzheimer's along with a large group of the vegan Church members over 60. Out of the 30 or so members of my family also my step-mothers family who are vegan half or more have developed Alzheimer's or some form of dementia. Most of the older people in the Church do not take any vitamins or supplements of any kind for fear of animal protein contamination. because the theology of the religion prohibits consuming animal products.
this is their repayment for a life time of commitment, a just god indeed.

RDFinders
07-26-2009, 03:50 PM
nice. im an experimental scientist myself. however, with a preference for single-subject experimental designs. forget that group stuff. no such thing as the "hypothetical-average" person. lol.
lol. i love doing the experiments. it is so much fun building the study, but you must have a very good statistician. but with the complexities of the areas of interest, single groups are going to be unrealistic in truly finding out what is going on. it would be nice though. but we are just too complex of creatures for that.

TPT
07-26-2009, 03:55 PM
Thank you all for the replies this is something very personal to me my step-grandfather who was the head minister of the adventist Church has developed Alzheimer's along with a large group of the vegan Church members over 60. Out of the 30 or so members of my family also my step-mothers family who are vegan half or more have developed Alzheimer's or some form of dementia. Most of the older people in the Church do not take any vitamins or supplements of any kind for fear of animal protein contamination. because the theology of the religion prohibits consuming animal products.



and thanks for sharing.

TPT
07-26-2009, 04:00 PM
lol. i love doing the experiments. it is so much fun building the study, but you must have a very good statistician. but with the complexities of the areas of interest, single groups are going to be unrealistic in truly finding out what is going on. it would be nice though. but we are just too complex of creatures for that.


ohh dont get me started single vs group designs! lol. i actually have applied stats for one of studies with over 200 subjects. came out alright- if you care about "averages." lol.

Frosty
07-27-2009, 12:38 AM
Vegan? Think EFAs as well especially DHA which is very important for nerve and brain function. No vitamin A, D, or b12 in a strict vegan diet. It really depends a lot on how well thought out their vegan diets are, but pretty much any reason other than religious/spiritual to be vegan is idiotic.

B7emm
07-27-2009, 01:23 PM
Vegan? Think EFAs as well especially DHA which is very important for nerve and brain function. No vitamin A, D, or b12 in a strict vegan diet. It really depends a lot on how well thought out their vegan diets are, but pretty much any reason other than religious/spiritual to be vegan is idiotic.

agreed

B7emm
07-27-2009, 01:26 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/

RDFinders
07-27-2009, 01:28 PM
Vegan? Think EFAs as well especially DHA which is very important for nerve and brain function. No vitamin A, D, or b12 in a strict vegan diet. It really depends a lot on how well thought out their vegan diets are, but pretty much any reason other than religious/spiritual to be vegan is idiotic.
frosty, where are you getting your information? no vitamin A in a strict vegan diet? do you not know what are natural sources of vitamin A? no vitamin D? we have already had our discussion on vitamin D, so vegans get it also as long as they go outside. B12 - vegan foods are fortified and there are plenty of non-animal sources fo B12. and some people would say that a meat based diet is idiotic since every nutrient available via animal sources is available in the plant world. so chose your words wisely and as a so-called nutrition professional, it is not your job to pass judgement on someone's dietary choices. if you are going to try and be a nutritional professional, your role is about improving one's dietary habits to make them as healthy as possible, not pass judgement.

B7emm
07-27-2009, 01:45 PM
frosty, where are you getting your information? no vitamin A in a strict vegan diet? do you not know what are natural sources of vitamin A? no vitamin D? we have already had our discussion on vitamin D, so vegans get it also as long as they go outside. B12 - vegan foods are fortified and there are plenty of non-animal sources fo B12. and some people would say that a meat based diet is idiotic since every nutrient available via animal sources is available in the plant world. so chose your words wisely and as a so-called nutrition professional, it is not your job to pass judgement on someone's dietary choices. if you are going to try and be a nutritional professional, your role is about improving one's dietary habits to make them as healthy as possible, not pass judgement.

You make some very good points. i think that the majority of the vegan family members i know are not eating enough and do not have a balanced diet most of them eat a lot of fruit and wheat bread for three meals a day with out supplements. the healthy family members uses meat substitutes and balance their diet better. I happen to like the nut loaf from vibrant life on sandwiches with some tomatoes and mustard. :)

RDFinders
07-27-2009, 02:22 PM
You make some very good points. i think that the majority of the vegan family members i know are not eating enough and do not have a balanced diet most of them eat a lot of fruit and wheat bread for three meals a day with out supplements. the healthy family members uses meat substitutes and balance their diet better. I happen to like the nut loaf from vibrant life on sandwiches with some tomatoes and mustard. :)
B7emm - lots of veggie heads don't necessarily take the time to make sure their diets are balanced. it is not a fault of the lifestyle, but the individual as you can see under/overnutrition with meateaters. hence, why there is the nutrition field and professionals in it b/c if eating great or healthy was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

B7emm
07-27-2009, 07:33 PM
B7emm - lots of veggie heads don't necessarily take the time to make sure their diets are balanced. it is not a fault of the lifestyle, but the individual as you can see under/overnutrition with meateaters. hence, why there is the nutrition field and professionals in it b/c if eating great or healthy was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

great post. thank you for your input. its good to hear from someone who is up to date with the diet. I will second you about eating healthy. it really bothers me to see nutrition professionals who are as unhealthy and overweight as the people they are trying to help.

Frosty
07-27-2009, 07:53 PM
frosty, where are you getting your information? no vitamin A in a strict vegan diet? do you not know what are natural sources of vitamin A? no vitamin D? we have already had our discussion on vitamin D, so vegans get it also as long as they go outside. B12 - vegan foods are fortified and there are plenty of non-animal sources fo B12. and some people would say that a meat based diet is idiotic since every nutrient available via animal sources is available in the plant world. so chose your words wisely and as a so-called nutrition professional, it is not your job to pass judgement on someone's dietary choices. if you are going to try and be a nutritional professional, your role is about improving one's dietary habits to make them as healthy as possible, not pass judgement.

There is zero vitamin A in plant foods. Plants only contain carotenoids which are NOT vitamin A. It requires conversion in the body and under ideal conditions it's not exactly optimal. I even have seen studies where if you eat raw carrots you absorb almost none of the beta-carotene (3%), and when homogenized and cooked still only 27%, and if you add fat to it (something many vegans avoid) you still only get 39%. So then you take that portion absorbed and then it gets fractionated even more because of the inefficient conversion to vitamin A...perhaps 4:1 to 6:1+. People with compromised thyroid function it's even worse, and also worse with diabetics. Children also convert it less. A zinc deficiency (which is more common with vegans, esp men that exercise) makes this problem worse along with inhibiting the use of vitamin A within the body. As mentioned above bile is part of the picture and many if not most vegans try to eat very low fat which further hurts. There are numerous other factors that can lessen the ability to convert carotenoids into vitamin A. Basically it's a bad idea to rely on plant products for such a vital nutrient.

Zero vitamin D in plant foods and what you get from the sun depends on so many factors and people in northern climates and dark skin are even higher risk. Like I said before, if the minimal skin exposure to sun at such minimal times would give you optimal vitamin D levels then there wouldn't be such a wide spread problem of insufficient vitamin D status.

And perhaps I'm wrong, but what is a plant source of vitamin B12?

As to the DHA, there are algae based products but they offer very tiny amounts of DHA.


I'm sorry but I stand by my comment. If it's religious/spiritual I'm fine by that. However just look at our physiology. I don't know about you but I don't have multiple stomachs....just one that produces a lot of hydrochloric acid.

Frosty
07-27-2009, 07:59 PM
BTW as far as I know there are no plant source of EPA. Not a good thing, either.

RDFinders
07-27-2009, 08:35 PM
WOW! That's all I can say. Why did I even bother going to school. I could have just gotten a certification like you, that is recognized by no professional organziations that takes nutrition seriously. You have a lot to learn.

Frosty
07-27-2009, 08:42 PM
WOW! That's all I can say. Why did I even bother going to school. I could have just gotten a certification like you, that is recognized by no professional organziations that takes nutrition seriously. You have a lot to learn.

I have no certification or formal education, so if I'm wrong please help me learn. I'm serious. I may be a bit rude sometimes and seem stubborn, but if you can really give reasons as to why what I said is incorrect I'm all ears.

RDFinders
07-28-2009, 08:18 AM
I have no certification or formal education, so if I'm wrong please help me learn. I'm serious. I may be a bit rude sometimes and seem stubborn, but if you can really give reasons as to why what I said is incorrect I'm all ears.
which makes your responses and spouting off of "knowledge" so incredible. you are dangerous b/c you know enough to make you that way. i have noticed with thephysicaltherapist or dr. pangloss speak - you treat them like E. F. Hutton. you listen. when someone with a credible nutrition credential - RD, LD, LDN (in Canada) or CNS, you try to dog them and show your superiority. freak and i have written numerous times about the information of which you speak, but you are not open to learning. you are too busy being more knowledgable. you quote sources that are not credible in the academic community. do i like that's the way it goes, no b/c i think other sources of information are credible if done/collected using scientific principles. and if my memory servves me correct on pasquale (if i spelled it right) he wrote the protocol on SSI for bodybuilding. so what the two guys you quoted as references, only goes to show you are not using accepted scholarly work. you only present one side of an argument and are not willing to look at the biological reasonings for why humans are the way they are. you want to make one situation or what has worked for you a blanket panacea for everyone.

as far as vitamin A goes - not sure where you get your information from. both animal and plant sources have a mixture of cartinoids and retinols. and the body does just fine converting carotenes to vitamin A. we don't have to exclusively get retinols in our diets to restore and maintain vitamin A stores. and seeing the RE (retinol equivalents) measure about the same for animal and plants sources, i don't think anyone is going to promote only animal sources for vitamin A. again, very limited information and understanding on your part; along with unwillingness to be open for learning.

side note - for EPA and DHA - we only need to get fats from omega-3 sources. our bodies are able to convert them into EPA and DHA, but we consume such heavy omega-6 rich diets that the enyzmatic pathway is very rusty. once the balance has been restored, our bodies will pick up the pathway as if it wasn't shut down. just like vegans/vegetarians no longer produce enzymes to digest meat. if they reintroduce meat into their diets again, those enzymes will be made again.

Frosty
07-28-2009, 01:46 PM
which makes your responses and spouting off of "knowledge" so incredible. you are dangerous b/c you know enough to make you that way. i have noticed with thephysicaltherapist or dr. pangloss speak - you treat them like E. F. Hutton. you listen. when someone with a credible nutrition credential - RD, LD, LDN (in Canada) or CNS, you try to dog them and show your superiority. freak and i have written numerous times about the information of which you speak, but you are not open to learning. you are too busy being more knowledgable. you quote sources that are not credible in the academic community. do i like that's the way it goes, no b/c i think other sources of information are credible if done/collected using scientific principles. and if my memory servves me correct on pasquale (if i spelled it right) he wrote the protocol on SSI for bodybuilding. so what the two guys you quoted as references, only goes to show you are not using accepted scholarly work. you only present one side of an argument and are not willing to look at the biological reasonings for why humans are the way they are. you want to make one situation or what has worked for you a blanket panacea for everyone. You're implying that in a thread where a fellow is asking specifically about low carb gaining diets that my recommendations are then a blanket panacea? Have you ever listened to me recommend what to do with guys that want to use a lot more carbs? But either way that has nothing to do with this topic.

I'm sorry but the academic nutrition field is way behind. It sucks for the most part. I'll listen to more intelligent guys that are more educated. DiPasquale is an MD with a shitload of education and Poliquin has a huge amount of education thank you very much, and they're intelligent enough to see through the bullshit in the field. Just because it wasn't a doctor or professor saying it in your classes doesn't make it wrong. There seems to be a terrible problem with some of these fields of "oh I didn't learn that in school so it must be wrong. Do you have a degree? Well *I* do!" There are plenty of people out there with a high level of education that disagree with a large portion of what is the curriculum in schools for nutrition.



as far as vitamin A goes - not sure where you get your information from. both animal and plant sources have a mixture of cartinoids and retinols. and the body does just fine converting carotenes to vitamin A. we don't have to exclusively get retinols in our diets to restore and maintain vitamin A stores. and seeing the RE (retinol equivalents) measure about the same for animal and plants sources, i don't think anyone is going to promote only animal sources for vitamin A. again, very limited information and understanding on your part; along with unwillingness to be open for learning.I'm not saying animal sources do not contain carotenoids. Egg yolks do as well as dairy fat like butter.

I've never seen retinol in a plant product. Can you please show me what plant items retinol is found in?

Where do you get your information on the conversion of beta-carotene to retinol? It requires enzyme pathways that don't achieve 100% efficiency even ideally just like the enzyme pathways used to convert alpha-linolenic acid into EPA, and since the pathway is longer even less efficient to convert to DHA.

There is also simple variability between individuals on how well they do this:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/6/1545

"Variable absorption and conversion of -carotene to vitamin A both contribute to the variable response to consumption of -carotene."

You also seem to insinuate that there are no factors that reduce the efficiency of the conversion. Where do you get this information? Almost any process in the body can be altered with different contributing variables.


side note - for EPA and DHA - we only need to get fats from omega-3 sources. our bodies are able to convert them into EPA and DHA, but we consume such heavy omega-6 rich diets that the enyzmatic pathway is very rusty. once the balance has been restored, our bodies will pick up the pathway as if it wasn't shut down. just like vegans/vegetarians no longer produce enzymes to digest meat. if they reintroduce meat into their diets again, those enzymes will be made again.The enzyme pathways aren't 100% efficient. The body has a easier time converting alpha-linolenic acid into EPA, but it's not efficient. This has a lot to do with how well the enzyme pathways function and like you said a heavy omega-6 diet can reduce the effectiveness of the omega-3 side because it uses the same enzymes. There are other factors however that contribute to the effectiveness of these enzymes, insulin being one of them and over-weight people flax oil I think is more detrimental than beneficial because of the excessive intake of PUFA without the benefit of the actual essential fats in overweight subjects.

Regardless the conversion of something like flax oil to DHA is extremely poor:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/77/1/226

"Dietary flaxseed oil increased the breast-milk, plasma, and erythrocyte contents of the n-3 fatty acids ALA, EPA, and DPA but had no effect on breast-milk, plasma, or erythrocyte DHA contents."

http://verlag.hanshuber.com/Zeitschriften/IJVNR/98/vn9803.html

"The parent fatty acid ALA (18:3n-3), found in vegetable oils such as flaxseed or rapeseed oil, is used by the human organism partly as a source of energy, partly as a precursor of the metabolites, but the degree of conversion appears to be unreliable and restricted. More specifically, most studies in humans have shown that whereas a certain, though restricted, conversion of high doses of ALA to EPA occurs, conversion to DHA is severely restrict-ed. The use of ALA labelled with radioisotopes suggested that with a background diet high in saturated fat conversion to long-chain metabolites is ~6% for EPA and 3.8% for DHA. With a diet rich in n-6 PUFA, conversion is reduced by 40 to 50%."


(Interesting to note that a diet high in saturated fat has better conversion of ALA into EPA and DHA than a n-6 rich diet. What are most plant source fats? Omega-6!!! What is typically low in almost all plant fats? Saturated fat! And vegans usually avoid saturated fat anyway even plant source. So this means I could get the same amount of EPA and DHA out of 4-5 fish oil caps that you MAY get out of 54 grams of flax oil! Talk about an unhealthy way to get in some EFAs! This seems like a good protocol to greatly increase oxidative stress on the body.)


The other factor you're totally ignoring is genetic variability in the capability of these pathways. Do you really think someone of Irish or Inuit descent is going to have the same ability to convert alpha-linolenic acid to EPA and DHA as a different race? Certain populations are practically obligatory carnivores because they've adapted so long to a meat heavy diet that they don't really convert these plant fats into the EFAs well at all. They need animal fats to supply the essential fats EPA and DHA.

The other problem in terms of health is in order to get a large amount of EPA and DHA through flax oil, it requires monstrous amounts of PUFAs which will actually encourage things like cancer and oxidation. It's much smarter to use an animal fat that contains pre-formed EPA and DHA so you can get it in known significant quantities without having to take in monstrous PUFAs which increases oxidative stress, and you don't have questions on how well your body is actually converting these plant fats into the essential fats we require.



you want to make one situation or what has worked for you a blanket panacea for everyone.I'm seeing you doing that. You're totally ignoring genotype variability with these factors as well as environmental factors that contribute to the effectiveness of the body's ability to convert these plant nutrients into the nutrients we require.

godstrength
07-28-2009, 02:17 PM
I am in complete agreement with you Frosty.

Adding.......

IMO modern veganism does not even resemble " old school vegetarianism. Most older vegetarians will admit that they understand, that as they age they could suffer from debilitating health issues. Especially neurological and cardiovascular.

To them, vegetarianism is about a spiritual belief system and not health. So for the sake of their belief system, they are willing to suffer.

Bottom line.....
Animal proteins contain more nutrients and minerals than any plant or any supplement that exsist, and there are no substitutes that would ever provide an equal benefit.

I have relatives who were/are vegans. They were some of the most unhealthy people I've known. Their immune systems were aweful. There has never been a time when one or the other of that family did not have some type of sickness.

Atlas
07-28-2009, 02:41 PM
There seems to be a terrible problem with some of these fields of "oh I didn't learn that in school so it must be wrong. Do you have a degree? Well *I* do!" There are plenty of people out there with a high level of education that disagree with a large portion of what is the curriculum in schools for nutrition.

This is an excellent point, that those of you, who feel the need to boast about credentials should take heed of.

Knowledge gained via self directed learning, is no less meaningful, and holds just the same amount of academic weight, as knowledge gained in an institution.

Frosty
07-28-2009, 03:00 PM
Knowledge gained via self directed learning, is no less meaningful, and holds just the same amount of academic weight, as knowledge gained in an institution.

But there are many people out there with a ton of academic credentials that disagree with things that are taught. These aren't "internet gurus"...these are medical doctors and PhDs that disagree....very educated people. But somehow that doesn't matter because "I learned it in school."

B7emm
07-28-2009, 03:27 PM
But there are many people out there with a ton of academic credentials that disagree with things that are taught. These aren't "internet gurus"...these are medical doctors and PhDs that disagree....very educated people. But somehow that doesn't matter because "I learned it in school."
lol. i like your disclaimer. i find your posts very informative and logical.

RDFinders
07-28-2009, 05:33 PM
dearest frosty

you are still missing the boat. information that both freak and i have provided are basics grounded in biochem, anatomy and phys, organic chemistry and in nutrition. you want to always show superiority, that's fine. you win. in the field of nutrition the persons you quote are not recognized as being authorities. and in any academic field, just b/c someone said doesn't make it fact or a basic prinicple. you claim you are open to learning, yet when basic priniciples that you are missing are brought up you get defensive and have to go and pull some article to prove your point. everything i have ever posted can be verified in any textbook or scholarly article. so from now on, please do not respond to any post i may write on rx or any other site. again, you are not open to learning. you want me to absolute on information i provide, but you want to excuse it for yourself. b/c i didn't mention a particular ethnic group, the comment i made about EPA and DHA is wrong. all i can say is wow. and like the statement i made before when thephysicaltherapist or dr. pangloss speak, you treat them like e. f. hutton. when i post something you take it as a personal afront. i like to discuss the biochemical properties related to nutrition and am always open to learning. try it sometimes.

freak
07-28-2009, 06:10 PM
This is an excellent point, that those of you, who feel the need to boast about credentials should take heed of.

Knowledge gained via self directed learning, is no less meaningful, and holds just the same amount of academic weight, as knowledge gained in an institution.
wrong. everyone is entitled to an opinion but, all opinions arent created equally.

Atlas
07-28-2009, 06:35 PM
wrong. everyone is entitled to an opinion but, all opinions arent created equally.

With all due respect, I think you missed my point, as I can assure you I am not wrong.

A student learning information on his own behalf from studies, text books, out with a course curriculum is self directed learning, and as such, is valid as long as it can be backed up. So far, Frosty has made an attempt to do just that. To put it simply; If a undergraduate mathematics student told you 1 + 1 = 3, and a person of no formal education told you 1 + 1 = 2, are you going to discredit the latter due to lack of education, and assume the former must be correct as they have a qualification? Of course you aren't.

My original point was that knowledge is knowledge, regardless of where it comes from, whether that be self directed learning or university, and using credentials as a way to tip the scale in ones favor, doesn't impress those of us who appreciate knowledge for what it is.

Also, just to qualify all this, i am not making a personal attack on anyone, I just find this academic elitism in very poor taste.

Frosty
07-28-2009, 06:38 PM
dearest frosty

you are still missing the boat. information that both freak and i have provided are basics grounded in biochem, anatomy and phys, organic chemistry and in nutrition. you want to always show superiority, that's fine. you win. in the field of nutrition the persons you quote are not recognized as being authorities. and in any academic field, just b/c someone said doesn't make it fact or a basic prinicple. you claim you are open to learning, yet when basic priniciples that you are missing are brought up you get defensive and have to go and pull some article to prove your point. everything i have ever posted can be verified in any textbook or scholarly article. so from now on, please do not respond to any post i may write on rx or any other site. again, you are not open to learning. you want me to absolute on information i provide, but you want to excuse it for yourself. b/c i didn't mention a particular ethnic group, the comment i made about EPA and DHA is wrong. all i can say is wow. and like the statement i made before when thephysicaltherapist or dr. pangloss speak, you treat them like e. f. hutton. when i post something you take it as a personal afront. i like to discuss the biochemical properties related to nutrition and am always open to learning. try it sometimes.

If you want to try to convince me of something you're going to have to actually discuss the issue instead of just saying it "can be verified in any textbook or scholarly article." That's a total cop out. You haven't backed up shit you've said. You just continue to try to put me down because you have more education than I.

You know why I treat ThePhysicalTherapist better than you? Because he actually knows what he's talking about and he doesn't go throwing around his credentials when someone disagrees with him, and he can actually support what he says, which is the complete opposite of what you have shown of yourself in this thread.

THAT'S why.

Frosty
07-28-2009, 06:52 PM
everything i have ever posted can be verified in any textbook or scholarly article.

Like these? Still waiting for an answer....



...there are plenty of non-animal sources fo B12.

What are plant sources of B12?


...plant sources have a mixture of cartinoids and retinols.

What plant foods have retinol content?

freak
07-28-2009, 07:52 PM
With all due respect, I think you missed my point, as I can assure you I am not wrong.

A student learning information on his own behalf from studies, text books, out with a course curriculum is self directed learning, and as such, is valid as long as it can be backed up. true, but dont forget that a lot of self-directed learning lacks critical concepts that are needed for the foundation for the rest of the information. So far, Frosty has made an attempt to do just that. To put it simply; If a undergraduate mathematics student told you 1 + 1 = 3, and a person of no formal education told you 1 + 1 = 2, are you going to discredit the latter due to lack of education, and assume the former must be correct as they have a qualification? Of course you aren't. no, i wouldnt. but this example you give is pretty much irrelevant to the debate in the thread. here's a better example of whats goin on: a person with interest in quantum physics has done a lot of self-directed learning from some reliable sources but also from a shit load of unreliable, pseudoscientific information. then this person decides to get into a debate with a quantum physicist spounting off a whole bunch of wrong or unsupported information backed up by unreliable sources. in the debate the quantum physics PhD person states "i have a PhD in quantum physics, i know what i am talking about and you are wrong. what are your credentials in the field?" then the self-taught guru retorts with "oh so now you're bringing up your education! you're an academic elitist! educated people dont know anything! book smarts dont trump results!! blah, blah blah"

My original point was that knowledge is knowledge, regardless of where it comes from,this is also wrong. if someone comes up with some bullshit and the people reading it consider it "knowledge," doesnt mean its knowledge. its still bullshit, regardless of how you cut it. this is the reason for having things peer-reviewed. whether that be self directed learning or university, and using credentials as a way to tip the scale in ones favor, doesn't impress those of us who appreciate knowledge for what it is. ..or things you THINK are knowledge.

Also, just to qualify all this, i am not making a personal attack on anyone, I just find this academic elitism in very poor taste.
^in the red.. i wasn't trying to be mean here or anything.. but that's how it might come off.

Frosty
07-28-2009, 08:02 PM
There's truth on both sides of what JDavidson and Freak are saying. I'm never going to say that education is bad or that self study is superior. Formal education is a great thing. On the other hand some fields are less definite. You can't even begin to compare a hard science like physics or math with nutrition. Math doesn't change, but nutrition information is constantly evolving.

I'm just highly frustrated in this thread because I'm providing evidence on my side and in return I'm getting put down about my lack of education by someone posting information that is painfully obvious in how incorrect it is.

freak
07-28-2009, 08:21 PM
yeah im not up to snuff on the vegan practices so i dont know what they do to get nutrients that are found mostly in animal foods. im guessing from supplemental sources but cant be sure.. i know lots of grains are inriched with B12.. as far as the EPA and DHA conversion and all that go, couldn't tell ya. when i learn more about this i'll post something on it. you can get margarine fortified with retinol, Vit.D you can get with sufficient exposure to sunlight.

Frosty
07-28-2009, 08:34 PM
yeah im not up to snuff on the vegan practices so i dont know what they do to get nutrients that are found mostly in animal foods. im guessing from supplemental sources but cant be sure.. i know lots of grains are inriched with B12.. as far as the EPA and DHA conversion and all that go, couldn't tell ya. when i learn more about this i'll post something on it. you can get margarine fortified with retinol, Vit.D you can get with sufficient exposure to sunlight.

Sure if you did rigorous supplementation with synthetic natural form nutrients you could make up for a lot of the problems. Vitamin D in winter for most people requires supplementation plain and simple to maintain optimal vitamin D status, but this can be done on a vegan diet if supplemented. The diet itself just lacks so many things for humans because we're not herbivores plain and simple. We're much closer to carnivores than we are herbivores which is obvious when you look at our history and physiology. The only reason we were able to develop the brains we have is because we started eating animals.

However some people just CAN'T be strict vegans because AFAIK there aren't plant sources for EPA and some people from certain areas just don't have the ability to convert ALA into EPA let alone DHA and require the pre-formed animal sources of these essential fats. Not to mention some people that have issues like gluten/gliadin intolerance and lectin sensitivities will have a difficult time with vegan diets.

The problem is so many vegans are convinced that it's the healthiest way to eat even though they're having health problems because of it, but because of a lot of propaganda they believe that they are doing the best thing for their health by eating vegan when it's in fact causing them problems.

Atlas
07-28-2009, 08:40 PM
^in the red.. i wasn't trying to be mean here or anything.. but that's how it might come off.

I like the points you brought up there, and I think they are valid. Perhaps if I changed my analogy to an undergraduate mathematics student telling you 1 + 1 = 2, and a person of no formal education told you 1 + 1 = 2, it would fall more inline with what you are saying, and indeed, my point.

I get the impression you are suggesting that Frosty is the self-directed learner, and he is wrongly arguing against the PhD, and approaching it from that angle - in which case your points against what I am saying are totally valid. It may be worth mentioning, I wrote my post from the perspective of neither party being correct or incorrect. Indeed, perhaps I should have also stated that "correct knowledge, is correct knowledge", regardless of how it was achieved. Perhaps now you can see where I was coming from?

And just as a side note, regarding the highlighted portion of my post stating "...those of us who appreciate knowledge for what it is." to which you replied "...or things you THINK are knowledge." I am assuming that is a general comment regarding those lacking formal education, and not directly aimed at me. As a graduate holding an MBChB, I would like to think I know the difference...;)

I hope this is taken in the friendly spirit of which it is meant! :beerbang:

freak
07-28-2009, 08:41 PM
i'm actually with you on this one. i dont think vegan diets are healthy but, who am i to pass judgement on thier choices? none of the vegans i know do it for religious causes so i have no huge problems with it besides the nutritional dallemas. one of my nutrition profs was a vegan and had to come back to eating meat because of the health consequences..

freak
07-28-2009, 08:47 PM
I like the points you brought up there, and I think they are valid. Perhaps if I changed my analogy to an undergraduate mathematics student telling you 1 + 1 = 2, and a person of no formal education told you 1 + 1 = 2, it would fall more inline with what you are saying, and indeed, my point.

I get the impression you are suggesting that Frosty is the self-directed learner, and he is wrongly arguing against the PhD, and approaching it from that angle - in which case your points against what I am saying are totally valid. It may be worth mentioning, I wrote my post from the perspective of neither party being correct or incorrect. Indeed, perhaps I should have also stated that "correct knowledge, is correct knowledge", regardless of how it was achieved. Perhaps now you can see where I was coming from?

And just as a side note, regarding the highlighted portion of my post stating "...those of us who appreciate knowledge for what it is." to which you replied "...or things you THINK are knowledge." I am assuming that is a general comment regarding those lacking formal education, and not directly aimed at me. As a graduate holding an MBChB, I would like to think I know the difference...;)

I hope this is taken in the friendly spirit of which it is meant! :beerbang:
on this topic i wasnt saying frosty was wrong, i never really chimed in on the things he was saying about the nutritional concerns of vegans. i was speaking more in general of what goes on. as in my bolded portion "...or things you THINK are knowledge" i was speaking about the general population. i see it all the time, they watch some bullshit on oprah and think that everything they say is absolute fact and try build arguements around it.

and dont worry, i never sensed any hostility. i was just pointing out some things that i feel should be adressed here as well as on a larger scale.

Atlas
07-28-2009, 08:50 PM
on this topic i wasnt saying frosty was wrong, i never really chimed in on the things he was saying about the nutritional concerns of vegans. i was speaking more in general of what goes on. as in my bolded portion "...or things you THINK are knowledge" i was speaking about the general population. i see it all the time, they watch some bullshit on oprah and think that everything they say is absolute fact and try build arguements around it.

and dont worry, i never sensed any hostility. i was just pointing out some things that i feel should be adressed here as well as on a larger scale.

Sounds fair enough to me!

Frosty
07-28-2009, 08:58 PM
i dont think vegan diets are healthy but, who am i to pass judgement on thier choices?

Fair enough. I'll do it since you won't :) I respect it for religious or spiritual reasons but anything else is stupid. Even the animal rights reasoning. The health reason is a joke. The environmental reason is also dumb. People that say humans are evolved to eat a plant-based diet are absolute idiots.

Even as to the spiritual reason, you can be spiritual and eat meat. People have different spiritual beliefs so I'm not saying that someone is wrong for not eating meat for their spiritual beliefs. I really like the Native American belief in killing an animal and thanking its spirit for giving its life to support their own, and then using the entire animal so nothing goes to waste.

RDFinders
07-28-2009, 09:34 PM
With all due respect, I think you missed my point, as I can assure you I am not wrong.

A student learning information on his own behalf from studies, text books, out with a course curriculum is self directed learning, and as such, is valid as long as it can be backed up. So far, Frosty has made an attempt to do just that. To put it simply; If a undergraduate mathematics student told you 1 + 1 = 3, and a person of no formal education told you 1 + 1 = 2, are you going to discredit the latter due to lack of education, and assume the former must be correct as they have a qualification? Of course you aren't.

My original point was that knowledge is knowledge, regardless of where it comes from, whether that be self directed learning or university, and using credentials as a way to tip the scale in ones favor, doesn't impress those of us who appreciate knowledge for what it is.

Also, just to qualify all this, i am not making a personal attack on anyone, I just find this academic elitism in very poor taste.
so you are saying, if i went and self-directed my studies in internal medicine my knowledge would be equal to a physician?

and when did providing basic information that is seeming lacking in someone's argument become a boosting of credentials? and where in the thread has anyone boosted on their credentials? basic infomration can be verified in any textbook on the subject of sciences. but what your responses are saying that there is no reason to have professionals and credentials b/c you can just pick up books and teach yourself, which makes you equal to some who has spent their time studying, learning and practicing their craft.

Frosty
07-28-2009, 09:38 PM
basic infomration can be verified in any textbook on the subject of sciences.


Like retinol being found in plant products?

Atlas
07-28-2009, 10:14 PM
so you are saying, if i went and self-directed my studies in internal medicine my knowledge would be equal to a physician?

and when did providing basic information that is seeming lacking in someone's argument become a boosting of credentials? and where in the thread has anyone boosted on their credentials? basic infomration can be verified in any textbook on the subject of sciences. but what your responses are saying that there is no reason to have professionals and credentials b/c you can just pick up books and teach yourself, which makes you equal to some who has spent their time studying, learning and practicing their craft.

No, what I am saying is that it is possible for people who do not have the formal qualifications to be correct in a subject, along side those that do have formal qualifications. Fair enough?

I believe I already mentioned my academic pursuits in this thread, so obviously I do not think that you can "pick up books and teach yourself, which makes you equal to some who has spent their time studying, learning and practicing their craft"

RDFinders
07-28-2009, 10:20 PM
No, what I am saying is that it is possible for people who do not have the formal qualifications to be correct in a subject, along side those that do have formal qualifications. Fair enough?

I believe I already mentioned my academic pursuits in this thread, so obviously I do not think that you can "pick up books and teach yourself, which makes you equal to some who has spent their time studying, learning and practicing their craft"
thanks for clearing it up. i wasn't trying to accuse, just wanted to know what your intentions were. it is sad in a discussion that when someone can shed some light on a subject they get blasted for it. like, i had to take organic chemistry. it is a well known fact that racemic mixtures occur in nature. which will explain why there are not any chemical structures that are exclusively found in one source. the quantity can vary tremendously based on physical properties when the configuration of the elements occurred, but this personal afront that people seem to take is so old and boring.

Frosty
07-28-2009, 10:22 PM
thanks for clearing it up. i wasn't trying to accuse, just wanted to know what your intentions were. it is sad in a discussion that when someone can shed some light on a subject they get blasted for it. like, i had to take organic chemistry. it is a well known fact that racemic mixtures occur in nature. which will explain why there are not any chemical structures that are exclusively found in one source. the quantity can vary tremendously based on physical properties when the configuration of the elements occurred, but this personal afront that people seem to take is so old and boring.

...

RDFinders
07-28-2009, 10:33 PM
the population of the planet is ever increasing, yet the intellectual capacity is declining. prime example. i am not sure why you continue to respond. you are taking this way toooooooooooooooo personal. some where a RD must have dogged you out in public in front of people and now you are living that out over and over and over again. :eek:

the public awaits to see how much further you can sink. :threesome:

Frosty
07-28-2009, 10:34 PM
Oh I can sink much further!!! LOL

Sorry I just thought that pic was funny as hell :)

Frosty
07-28-2009, 10:45 PM
the population of the planet is ever increasing, yet the intellectual capacity is declining. Prime example.



plant sources have a mixture of cartinoids and retinols.


:D


Insults!!!!