Cycling The Westside Method and 5/3/1

[Squid]

So, I was thinking of doing my split somewhat like this, Taking a default westside template for 3 weeks and 4 weeks of the 5/3/1, (for those of you that don't know 5/3/1 is a method developed by Jim Wendler of Elitefts) and repeating this cycle, I wanted a 2nd routine that wasn't a bodybuilding routine and as I was browsing Elitefts I came across this a few days ago and it clicked today I thought,
"what if both of these methods can be used in seldom?"
do you guys think it would work? I will give templates for these methods

Westside

Day 1 - Max Effort (ME) squat/deadlift
Squat/deadlift/good morning - Using one of these exercises or a variation of them for no more than 3 consecutive weeks work up from a warm up in sets of 3 until 3 repetitions are no longer possible and switch to a single rep working up to 4 single repetitions of between 90-100% of your max.
Lower back work - Choose from glute-ham raises, reverse hyper-extensions, half deadlifts, Romanian deadlifts, stiff-legged deadlifts (SLDLs), hyper-extensions or cable pulls - 4 x 8-10 (weighted if need be to stay within rep range)
Abs - Any form of rectus abdominus work - 4 x 8-12
Lat work - Any form of upper back work such as wide grip chins, pull downs, barbell rows, cable rows - 4 x 8-10
Day 2- Max Effort (ME) Bench press
Bench Press of any of the above mentioned variations working from a triple to a single.
Tricep work - Any form of core strength tricep work such as close grip bench, JM presses, Tate presses, lying dumbbell extensions - 4 x 5-10
Cable pushdowns - A variety of cable attachments may be used (flat bar, V bar, rope) - 4 x 8-12
Shoulder work - choice of either lateral or front raises - 4 x 10-12
Lat work - as above - 4 x 8-10
Biceps - Pick any bicep exercise of your choice - 3 x 8-10
Day 3- Dynamic Effort (DE) Squat
Box squat 8-12 doubles with 45-65% of 1RM
Lower back work - as Day 1
Side bends (or variation of external oblique training) - 4 x 8-12
Neck work
Day 4- Dynamic Effort (DE) Bench press
Speed bench 8-10 triples with 45-46% 1 RM
Tricep work - as Day 2
Pushdowns - as Day 2
Lat work - as Day 1
Biceps - as Day 2

5/3/1

Workout 1
Exercise Sets Reps % 1RM 1) Standing shoulder press
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4 3
5
3
5/3/1
5
65,75,85
70,80,90
75,85,95
40,50,60 2) Dip 5 15
3) Chin-up 5 10
Workout 2
Exercise Sets Reps % 1RM 1) Deadlift
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4 3
5
3
5/3/1
5
65,75,85
70,80,90
75,85,95
40,50,60 2) Good morning 5 12
3) Hanging leg raise 5 15
Workout 3
Exercise Sets Reps % 1RM 1) Bench press
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4 3
5
3
5/3/1
5
65,75,85
70,80,90
75,85,95
40,50,60 2) Dumbbell chest press 5 15
3) Dumbbell row 5 10
Workout 4
Exercise Sets Reps % 1RM 1) Squat
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4 3
5
3
5/3/1
5
65,75,85
70,80,90
75,85,95
40,50,60 2) Leg press 5 15
3) Leg curl 5 10

[BrotherIron]

I incorporate the 5/3/1 Method loosely with the Russian Conjugate Method.

I don't see why it wouldn't work. It's worth a shot.

You going to keep a journal here for all of us to watch the progress?

[Squid]

I will indeed start one up I had one previously but fell off with it doing a bodybuilding regime, I'll post my last two sessions ME bench/squat and dead

[marcusmucheck]

SQUID
not flaming, just curious as why you would put your ME days back to back like that.
also- is there any reason you chose the percents you did for DE day?

i would use more specific exercises for the abs.
straight leg sit ups
straight leg spread leg sit ups
bent leg sit ups
weight behind head
weight on face
weight on chest
and use weight for 2-6 reps

[Squid]

It is a template for the westside method not of my design, this is a template for beginners such as myself, I did however not get anything from the DE squat day after a few sets and raised the weight a bit, I have a rest between each ME day anyway either 1 day or two, so the ME day being back to back isn't a problem, for me atleast, would you suggest I swapped up the arrangement?

[marcusmucheck]

It is a template for the westside method not of my design, this is a template for beginners such as myself, I did however not get anything from the DE squat day after a few sets and raised the weight a bit, I have a rest between each ME day anyway either 1 day or two, so the ME day being back to back isn't a problem, for me atleast, would you suggest I swapped up the arrangement?

i would seperate the ME days by a DE day.

as far as your DE days, if youre not using band or chain...i suggest using 70-79% for 1-3 reps for around 15-25 total reps

also your second movement of the day should be with less reps and a bit heavie. again-2-6 reps over more sets.


where did you get this template?

[Squid]

Muscletalk.co.uk

[marcusmucheck]

Im not saying that the website is bad by any means. What I see happen a lot is someone making changes to a program and then it gets passes along like a game of telephone.

I trained at westside under gritter adams, louie simmons and amy weisberger for a little over 2 years.

in that two years i saw a ton of people coming in asking about "this" program or "that" program.

they were all programs like "westside for skinny bastards," "westside for bodybuilding," so on and on.

your best bet would be to call westside and ask for lou or to come over for a bit.

also, the 5/3/1 method is working for a lot of people and it may work for you, but jim wendler and lou simmons never really saw eye to eye on training.

5/3/1 is not like westside at all and I believe you shouldnt mix the two.

[Squid]

ok thankyou marcus

[BrotherIron]

I don't think there is anything wrong with mixing and tweaking different training programs to create something new and possibly improved.

Just take Louie Simmons for example. He took the Bulgarian and Russian Oly Routines (which are completely different, and have completely different trains of thought) and combined them with some tweaking to create the Westside routine so many love to follow.

The Chinese Oly Program did the exact same thing and voila, now there the country to beat right now.

So I say don't be afraid to tweak things to what you think would be a possibly better and more effective training program.

[marcusmucheck]

I don't think there is anything wrong with mixing and tweaking different training programs to create something new and possibly improved.

Just take Louie Simmons for example. He took the Bulgarian and Russian Oly Routines (which are completely different, and have completely different trains of thought) and combined them with some tweaking to create the Westside routine so many love to follow.

The Chinese Oly Program did the exact same thing and voila, now there the country to beat right now.

So I say don't be afraid to tweak things to what you think would be a possibly better and more effective training program.


Sure. I dont know much about 5/3/1.
From what Ive read it emphasized high intensity training. One "real" set.

From what I learned at WSB, this is not what advocated in any classisal lift nor supplemental. It is used more for accesory work and hypertrophy.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you about louie using the "Bulgarian Method."

I do agree however that WSB uses the ME method. The bulgarians typically trained monday through friday in forty-five minute sessions with 15-20 minute breaks. They would max out (apply maximum effort) each day in the snatch, clean and jerk, front squat, and/or back squat.

The Bulgarians included the competition (classical lifts) in the exercises they maxed out.

Westside often does not, nor does westside max out daily. Sometimes we didnt max out at all. We would instead increase band/chain on DE day on friday.

I believe maxing out daily to be easier when the lifts maxed out on are technical lifts rather than strength lifts.

That is most likely why we only maxed out 1-2 times weekly (one upper body session, one lower body).

The real westside is 4 main workouts a week lasting about 50 mins.

louie took one method of the Bulgarian camp, not really the entire routine.

westside is more a melting pot than anthing really.

I believe the chinese use almost the exact same approach as the russians (more soviet era) with minor changes, if any.

but to be totally honest...you and I probaly only speculate about what anyone does with the exception of coffees in your case and wsb in mine.

[BrotherIron]

Sure. I dont know much about 5/3/1.
From what Ive read it emphasized high intensity training. One "real" set.

From what I learned at WSB, this is not what advocated in any classisal lift nor supplemental. It is used more for accesory work and hypertrophy.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you about louie using the "Bulgarian Method."

I do agree however that WSB uses the ME method. The bulgarians typically trained monday through friday in forty-five minute sessions with 15-20 minute breaks. They would max out (apply maximum effort) each day in the snatch, clean and jerk, front squat, and/or back squat.

The Bulgarians included the competition (classical lifts) in the exercises they maxed out.

Westside often does not, nor does westside max out daily. Sometimes we didnt max out at all. We would instead increase band/chain on DE day on friday.

I believe maxing out daily to be easier when the lifts maxed out on are technical lifts rather than strength lifts.

That is most likely why we only maxed out 1-2 times weekly (one upper body session, one lower body).

The real westside is 4 main workouts a week lasting about 50 mins.

louie took one method of the Bulgarian camp, not really the entire routine.

westside is more a melting pot than anthing really.

I believe the chinese use almost the exact same approach as the russians (more soviet era) with minor changes, if any.

but to be totally honest...you and I probaly only speculate about what anyone does with the exception of coffees in your case and wsb in mine.

You can disagree with me about Louie using the Bulgarian method but you just said he took pieces of it. That is what I'm saying is that taking pieces of different methods and combining them can sometimes create something even better.

And as for the Chinese they do exactly what I said. I met the former Chinese coach at the Pan-Am's and spoke with him. He now trains the Mexican Olympic Weightlifting Team. I have also met many International athletes so I don't speculate when it comes to Oly lifting.

The Bulgarians work up to their max for any given day through waves. Meaning singles for 12-15 sets working up to their max single each time. Than they drop back down and work up again, drop back down, and work up again. They do this for the 4-6 lifts they use and that is what there training is. 8 hours a day, everyday. I know b/c I workout with athletes who use the Bulgarians Training Methods (SisterSteel is one of them) and Coffee himself knows their coach very well as well as the other Olympic Coaches around the world.

I'm not arguing with you bud, just disagreeing with you on some things.