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magnus68
02-20-2009, 11:49 AM
I'll try again. What is the best Hrt Protocol that would also illicit good gains over the long haul?

RazorRipped
02-20-2009, 02:01 PM
I'll try again. What is the best Hrt Protocol that would also illicit good gains over the long haul?

Try again? Did you have another thread that went unanswered?


HRT ISN'T about making muscular gains. It's about retaining muscle tissue.


IF you went over the doctor prescribed 200 mgs weekly, to say 350 mgs weekly. You will make gradual gains over time as long as you are eating to support growth. Training for growth as well.

You aren't growing on 200 mgs weekly. It has been clinically proven 350 mg is the lowest you can grow on.



~RR

Stavman
02-20-2009, 02:05 PM
Shouldn't your doctor tell you this?

Jack of All
02-20-2009, 03:21 PM
Shouldn't your doctor tell you this?

1. Most Dr's dont tell you squat about HRT

2. Most Dr's dont know squat about HRT

All of the best info I have learned about HRT has not been from my Dr but from forums.

gman
02-20-2009, 03:24 PM
Dr's want you to be in the physiological normal range, not concerned about growing.

So if you are at 500-600, they are happy

magnus68
02-20-2009, 04:24 PM
RR would 350mg for Hrt for life do damage

magnus68
02-20-2009, 04:26 PM
Wait, that sounds stupid... I mean if I am still looking for muscle gain and take 300 350 a week over a period of time until Im happy then go back down to 2 or 250. would that be better?

RazorRipped
02-20-2009, 05:14 PM
Wait, that sounds stupid... I mean if I am still looking for muscle gain and take 300 350 a week over a period of time until Im happy then go back down to 2 or 250. would that be better?

Realistically, you'll need to cycle your drugs in order to get decent growth. Sure you can stay on 350 mgs and make progress, but it's a very slow boat to china.

You might want to consider bumping your HRT dose to 600 mgs for around 12 weeks. Eat and train for growth, then drop down to 200-250 mgs for around 3 months, and keep repeating this process til you achieve the look you're after.


~RR

LittleChris
02-21-2009, 03:52 PM
hey razor ripped.

sorry bro, i have to disagree with ya. im on 200 mg of test a week and i am consistently making gains in size and strenght. you are correct, you also maintain muscle, especially when dieting. But at 200 mgs of cyp a week i am growing and getting bigger. i would calculate that i am gaining about 10 lbs per year. obviously i cant do that indefinetly, but i do see myself at around 250 lbs in about 2 years, and then being able to maintain that. im 6 foot tall, 36 inch waist in pants. currently 230 lbs with abdominals.

-LC

magnus68
02-21-2009, 09:21 PM
Little Chris, how old are you and what is your regimin

Sledge
02-21-2009, 09:38 PM
A doc will give you 250 every 2-4 weeks or less sometimes. I run 250 a week year round and it keeps me well above the fitness and muscularity levels of the 20-30 year olds I train for work. I'm 43.

LittleChris
02-21-2009, 09:51 PM
hi,

magnus: hey bro, im on 200 mgs of cyp every 7 days. 500 iu's of hcg every 4 days. and 1 mg of anasrazole every other day. the doc prescribed me 300 mg per week, but im happy at 200 mgs.

-LC

RazorRipped
02-21-2009, 10:31 PM
hey razor ripped.

sorry bro, i have to disagree with ya. im on 200 mg of test a week and i am consistently making gains in size and strenght. you are correct, you also maintain muscle, especially when dieting. But at 200 mgs of cyp a week i am growing and getting bigger. i would calculate that i am gaining about 10 lbs per year. obviously i cant do that indefinetly, but i do see myself at around 250 lbs in about 2 years, and then being able to maintain that. im 6 foot tall, 36 inch waist in pants. currently 230 lbs with abdominals.

-LC

Come on man. 10 pounds a year on 200 mg test when it's clinically proven you need 350 mg test for growth. Sorry my friend, but I'm not buying your story.
If that was the case EVERYONE would be running 200 mg of test and growing like a weed. I'm guessing you must be confusing scale weight for actual tissue growth. That's common with inexperienced people though.

Do you realize how hard it is to put on 10 pounds EVERY year? You trying to tell everyone you'll put on 40 pounds of muscle tissue in 4 yrs on 200 mgs of test? Genetic freaks can't accomplish that in 4 yrs...lol..


36 inches waist with clear abdominal? Can you please post a picture to show us?

LittleChris
02-22-2009, 11:47 AM
hey razor,
like i said, i cant gain 10 lbs per year indefinetly, its impossible. but i do see myself getting to about 250 lbs and maintaining it. yes, even at 200 mgs of testosterone per week. keep in mind i am 6 foot tall, so 250 lbs on my frame is different than the average bodybuilders frame who is anywhere between 5 foot 6 inches and 5 foot 8 inches.
Why wouldnt 200 mgs of testsoterone per week allow one to build muscle? my levels are around 1100 4 days after my shot. this is in the HIGH range. is this not enough to maintain positive nitrogen balance? I recover VERY VERY FAST as well. this allows me to get in more training sessions per week, thus enabeling me to get double the results that say a natural would get because im able to do 6 months worth of training in 3 months, compared to the natural athlete, for example.
I dont know why there is a set number, or minimum on how much test one needs in order to grow. says who? So you are saying one needs 300 mg per week to grow? that makes no sense, im sorry. so basiclly, if i did 40 mg of propionate per day, i would not grow from that? that comes out to 280 mg of test per week.
Keep in mind that i DO NOT miss workouts and i eat clean and am consistently consuming protein and the right ratio of carbs throughout the day. My training is also very sound, based on heavy weight, 2 minute rest between sets, and high volume. i train 1.5 hours per day 5 days a week, and do around 30 minutes of cardio on my days "off" along with one muscle group like calves, hamstrings, or forearms. All on 200 mg test per week, and NO i am not a genetic freak, in fact my genetics are not all that great to be honest.
as far as my abs and waist size. i wear size 36 pants ( remember i am 6 foot tall), what is wrong with that ? is my pant waist size supposed to be the same size as my actual waist? if that was the case, my pants would be skin tight and i would not be able to walk in them, and worse, it would look ridiculous. i wear waist size 36 and have room to be able to tuck a shirt in if needed and have some room around my waist to be comfortable. i dont wear skin tight pants. as far as my abs. yes i can see my abs, and a little vascularity on them, no big deal. am i contest ready? NO. i figure im about 20 lbs away though, if i were to compete. as far as pics. thats a good idea. ill post a few up in a couple of weeks.

-LC

Jack of All
02-22-2009, 12:37 PM
I believe it has been proven that you can grow on smaller amounts of test. Would you continue to grow forever? No. I am sure you also have to take into account AAS experience and ones begining level of fitness. But according to this study: "Fat-free mass increased dose dependently in men receiving 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone weekly (change +3.4, 5.2, and 7.9 kg, respectively). The changes in fat-free mass were highly dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0001) and correlated with log testosterone concentrations (r = 0.73, P = 0.0001)."

So the guys on 125mg a week gained 7.48lbs in 20 weeks.
the guys on 300mg gained 10.4 lbs in 20 weeks
The guys on 600mg gained 17.38lbs in 20 weeks

This is lean mass not counting fat mass. Read the whole study here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11701431?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

RazorRipped
02-23-2009, 12:10 AM
........



hey razor,
like i said, i cant gain 10 lbs per year indefinetly, its impossible. But i do see myself getting to about 250 lbs and maintaining it. Yes, even at 200 mgs of testosterone per week.hogwash. But who am i to wake you up from your delusional dream





why wouldnt 200 mgs of testsoterone per week allow one to build muscle? it's a maintenance dose for aging men



my levels are around 1100 4 days after my shot. and rapidly declines thereafter. Maybe you should get some further bw done to see



is this not enough to maintain positive nitrogen balance? maintain, not grow


i recover very very fast as well.that's the idea behind hrt


this allows me to get in more training sessions per week, thus enabeling me to get double the results that say a natural would get because im able to do 6 months worth of training in 3 months,lol. You have little experience. That's plain as day

i dont know why there is a set number, or minimum on how much test one needs in order to grow. Says who? science says, that's who!

so you are saying one needs 300 mg per week to growscience has proven 350 mgs weekly



that makes no sense, im sorry.no need to apologize for your lack of research/knowledge on the matter


so basiclly, if i did 40 mg of propionate per day, i would not grow from that? That comes out to 280 mg of test per week.little different than 200 mgs isn't it? Secondly test prop is far more bio-available than cyp or enanthate. If you researched you wouldn't have wrote that


keep in mind that i do not miss workouts and i eat clean and am consistently consuming protein and the right ratio of carbs throughout the day. just becuase you are eating clean doesn't mean you aren't over eating. Do you weigh all your food? Carbs included? Do you know your exact lbm to know what your caloric needs are on a daily basis?


my training is also very sound, based on heavy weight, 2 minute rest between sets, and high volume. I train 1.5 hours per day 5 days a week, and do around 30 minutes of cardio on my days "off" along with one muscle group like calves, hamstrings, or forearms. All on 200 mg test per week, and no i am not a genetic freak, in fact my genetics are not all that great to be honest.here's another reason why i think you're delusional.you are over training, and don't have the genetics. My bet is you can deferenciate between fat and muscle accrual. Common with newbies like you

as far as my abs and waist size. I wear size 36 pants ( remember i am 6 foot tall), what is wrong with that ? lol, are you kidding me? I have tons of friends your height, and taller with 31-32 inch waists. Your fat, you just don't realize it. The word delusional comes to mind, once again



yes i can see my abs, and a little vascularity on them, no big deal. Am i contest ready? post pictures! Put up or shut up


ill post a few up in a couple of weeks.post them now! You said you can see your abs perfectly. Post the pcs now
-lc

~rr

gman
02-23-2009, 05:59 AM
I am 22% bf and I wear 36 jeans, so I have to side with the man in red.

Mutant
02-23-2009, 03:49 PM
I have seen people grow from 200mg/wk, but not continuously. I am on HRT between cycles...200mg/wk Cyp.

This is me when I had around a 35 inch waist at 5'10 250lb.

Fluid Karma
02-23-2009, 06:47 PM
I'm just putting this out there....According to Heavyiron (on MD) he has stated that the min amount of test you need to GROW was 300mg. It's in the real of the 300's. So 350mg is not far fetched...as far as the clinical data RR has read. But everyone is different and I believe it could be possible for some people to grow (Being open minded)...very little on 200mg test with HCG added of course!!

I'm on 300mg cyp a week and its fine. I would expect to see more growth with that small amount by adding deca at 200mg wk. If were talking ONLY about using small amounts.

Aaron Singerman
02-23-2009, 09:30 PM
6'2 waist measures out at 31.5" exactly...

heavyiron
02-24-2009, 12:33 PM
I'm just putting this out there....According to Heavyiron (on MD) he has stated that the min amount of test you need to GROW was 300mg. It's in the real of the 300's. So 350mg is not far fetched...as far as the clinical data RR has read. But everyone is different and I believe it could be possible for some people to grow (Being open minded)...very little on 200mg test with HCG added of course!!

I'm on 300mg cyp a week and its fine. I would expect to see more growth with that small amount by adding deca at 200mg wk. If were talking ONLY about using small amounts.
;)..

MartyMcFly
02-24-2009, 01:30 PM
what about losing fat at 200mg/weekly of Test Cyp? I'm currently on TRT at that dosage and I don't know what I've noticed. I mean, it seems like I'm growing, but it could be just that I'm cutting up easier and retaining more muscle right? that must be what is happening right?

militantmuscle
02-24-2009, 02:08 PM
Jerry,

The only way to find out is to take measurements at certain points during your progression.

Let's say at start I was 300lbs 10% bf. So I was 270lbs FFM (fat-free mass).

After a month, if I was 290lbs 5% bf, I'd have 275.5 FFM (fat-free mass). So even though weight went down, FFM went up, indicating muscle gain and fat loss at the same time.

So the lesson here is take measurements and notes before, during and after to really determine what went on in terms of muscle building and fat burning.

Fluid Karma
02-24-2009, 03:16 PM
;)..

It's about time you showed up:)

MartyMcFly
02-25-2009, 02:43 PM
Jerry,

The only way to find out is to take measurements at certain points during your progression.

Let's say at start I was 300lbs 10% bf. So I was 270lbs FFM (fat-free mass).

After a month, if I was 290lbs 5% bf, I'd have 275.5 FFM (fat-free mass). So even though weight went down, FFM went up, indicating muscle gain and fat loss at the same time.

So the lesson here is take measurements and notes before, during and after to really determine what went on in terms of muscle building and fat burning.

okay it makes sense, I just thought if I was dieting there was no way I would grow, but measurements do speak for themselves. Thanks, I'll definitely start on that.

BULLDOZER
02-25-2009, 11:38 PM
hey razor ripped.

sorry bro, i have to disagree with ya. im on 200 mg of test a week and i am consistently making gains in size and strenght. you are correct, you also maintain muscle, especially when dieting. But at 200 mgs of cyp a week i am growing and getting bigger. i would calculate that i am gaining about 10 lbs per year. obviously i cant do that indefinetly, but i do see myself at around 250 lbs in about 2 years, and then being able to maintain that. im 6 foot tall, 36 inch waist in pants. currently 230 lbs with abdominals.

-LC
WTF is with all the low dose advice in here? I thought this was Dave Palumbo's site. You know, the guy who tells the no BS truth about drugs. He is the only guy willing to come out in a main stream mag and tell guys to shoot 1200mg per week for 4 months.

200mg, puhlease?

like I said in another thread, if you can grow off 200mg you can grow off creatine.

RazorRipped
02-26-2009, 01:44 AM
WTF is with all the low dose advice in here? I thought this was Dave Palumbo's site. You know, the guy who tells the no BS truth about drugs. He is the only guy willing to come out in a main stream mag and tell guys to shoot 1200mg per week for 4 months.

200mg, puhlease?

like I said in another thread, if you can grow off 200mg you can grow off creatine.


You know, I'm starting to like you bro!:D

Jacquester
02-26-2009, 10:53 AM
WTF is with all the low dose advice in here? I thought this was Dave Palumbo's site. You know, the guy who tells the no BS truth about drugs. He is the only guy willing to come out in a main stream mag and tell guys to shoot 1200mg per week for 4 months.

200mg, puhlease?

like I said in another thread, if you can grow off 200mg you can grow off creatine.

It's because these are HRT guys that are hoping to get more than promised. I've done 1g/ wk and now I'm on the HRT route but know the reality. I'm at 300mg/wk test cyp, 200mg/wk deca, hcg, and a-dex which all adds up to a very slow grow. If you have no test left 200 will make you grow because you've probably shrunk. I've been able to get back up to the biggest I've been, but know it'll take more to go beyond that. One advantage with the HRT is that you don't go off just go higher then cruize.

Nattynomore
02-26-2009, 11:38 AM
My HRT dose is 200mg/week test cyp. I don't think anyone should expect anything more than gains you would get as a natural, healthy 20 year old. Now is that better than what I have experienced in the last few years . . . YES!!! But that does not mean I am an enhanced athlete?? NO!! I just have the test level of a healthy natty athlete.

Now because I have added an additional 300mg/week of test e and 250mg/week of deca to my HRT dose, my hopes are a bit more ambitious ;)

jacshelb
02-28-2009, 01:11 PM
like I said in another thread, if you can grow off 200mg you can grow off creatine.

You make a good point. I think that you can grow off of low doses. You can also grow off of no doses and just eating right and getting your training/rest in the right range for an individual. I know that is stating the obvious. I guess what I'm saying is that when people are seeing growth from very low doses like that, they are seeing growth they would have seen anyway.

Though, I find it hard to believe that 200 mg/week won't do anything. If you have somewhat normal levels to begin with, this low amount would help you until you are really shut down. But, yeah, after that you'd need more and this is what rr is saying, right? - I mean, we are talking about hrt/ not brief cycles.

BULLDOZER
02-28-2009, 01:21 PM
Realistically, you'll need to cycle your drugs in order to get decent growth. Sure you can stay on 350 mgs and make progress, but it's a very slow boat to china.

You might want to consider bumping your HRT dose to 600 mgs for around 12 weeks. Eat and train for growth, then drop down to 200-250 mgs for around 3 months, and keep repeating this process til you achieve the look you're after.


~RR
The only post in this thread that matters is right here.

VERY SLOW BOAT, FUCK THAT I AM TAKING AN AIRPLANE!!!