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AVBG
02-09-2009, 10:48 PM
When does a bodybuilder cross the line and lose their natural status?

Has any current natural bodybuilder crossed the line and regained their natural status, if so how long clean after dabbling do you have to be to be considered a natural?

discuss

countryboy
02-09-2009, 11:56 PM
When does a bodybuilder cross the line and lose their natural status?

Has any current natural bodybuilder crossed the line and regained their natural status, if so how long clean after dabbling do you have to be to be considered a natural?

discuss

Nic Jones.

As each fed differs, as long as you play to their rules i dont think it really matters.

What shits me is the gutless trophy hunter who juice to the gills the go in natty comps.

gman
02-10-2009, 05:55 AM
Countryboy,

He may be like me. I use compounded testosterone gel just trying to regain a normal sex life, etc.

My testosterone level is now a whopping 504. But I am pretty sure I could not ever compete natural.

Asmolenski
02-10-2009, 02:58 PM
I was wondering how long it would take you to start posting Mike!

Nic Brunicardi
02-10-2009, 04:52 PM
IMO there IS no more natural status once you start taking performance enhancers... You will have made gains you probably would never obtain without any enhancers. Take a guy like Flex Wheeler - there's nothing "natural" freakish about him! He's still got some good size on his muscles that are caused by years of steroid use.
That just my opinion anyway.

wnybodybuildingfan
02-10-2009, 05:05 PM
Many natural federations require competitor's to be 7 years drug free. They polygraph everyone and drug test the top competitor's. Most will ban you for life if caught cheating.

Nic Brunicardi
02-10-2009, 05:11 PM
Many natural federations require competitor's to be 7 years drug free. They polygraph everyone and drug test the top competitor's. Most will ban you for life if caught cheating.

I remember in an epsiode of NBR where they were talking about the polygraph and saying that anyone could beat those things.

Tatyana
02-10-2009, 05:18 PM
I think that the only hormone replacement that is allowed by WADA is insulin (for type 1 diabetes) and thyroxine (for hypothyroidism/myxedema, or variations of the disease, Graves disease and Hashimoto's).

wnybodybuildingfan
02-10-2009, 05:18 PM
I think Dave prepped a guy last year that competed in the INBF. He weighed around 145 I think. He placed first in his class. But tested positive for a banned substance. Dave said it was total bullshit, that just take a look at the guy, he is 100 percent natural. The INBF banned him for life.

Method
02-11-2009, 01:50 AM
When does a bodybuilder cross the line and lose their natural status?

Has any current natural bodybuilder crossed the line and regained their natural status, if so how long clean after dabbling do you have to be to be considered a natural?

discuss

2 people who are probably lying about being natural = Kyoshi Moody/Jeff Rodriguez.


Natural = Never taking any of the drugs on the banned substances list in your whole life unless it's for a valid prescription.

PowerAdder
02-11-2009, 03:59 AM
^ i agree. i can't stand people who say they're natural just because they haven't taken anything in a couple years.

Honour
02-11-2009, 06:32 AM
There really should be 3 catagories Lifetime Nattie/Nattie(as of "insert time last on")/and On Gear at least it would make it a little clearer I guess ;). I have no probs at all with guys on Gear or guys not on Gear, I just don't really like it when people lie about it :rolleyes:.

irishmuscle
02-11-2009, 07:16 AM
in my opinion a if you can buy it over the counter then its natural!!! if you took gear before than your not natural, ever. Now saying all that, the word bodybuilder and natural dont go together its an oxymoron,think about it! what is natural about killin yourself in the gym for a couple hours everyday and feeling sore everyday and growing bigger muscles than your average person,GEAR or NO-GEAR thats not natural!! but would we change it,not in a million years.long live the greatest sport in the world.

greuceanu
02-11-2009, 07:41 AM
When does a bodybuilder cross the line and lose their natural status?

Has any current natural bodybuilder crossed the line and regained their natural status, if so how long clean after dabbling do you have to be to be considered a natural?

discuss

As far as i'm concerned, any active chemical(that increases performance) present in the body that can't be found in whole food sources compromises the natural status.

If some over the counter product contains a chemical not found in nature which will increase performance, that compromises natural status.

I realise i'll get a bunch of guys who use over the counter chemicals but consider themselves natural jumping all over me.In terms of ethics, i don't see any difference between using an over the counter unnatural chemical(which increases performance) or an illegal steroid.Both are not found in nature/food sources,both increase performance, both are shortcuts.

Regarding steroids, once the active substance is gone and the bb doesn't benefit from it anymore, i consider him on the way to natural status.

AVBG
02-11-2009, 01:16 PM
As far as i'm concerned, any active chemical(that increases performance) present in the body that can't be found in whole food sources compromises the natural status.

If some over the counter product contains a chemical not found in nature which will increase performance, that compromises natural status.

I realise i'll get a bunch of guys who use over the counter chemicals but consider themselves natural jumping all over me.In terms of ethics, i don't see any difference between using an over the counter unnatural chemical(which increases performance) or an illegal steroid.Both are not found in nature/food sources,both increase performance, both are shortcuts.

Regarding steroids, once the active substance is gone and the bb doesn't benefit from it anymore, i consider him on the way to natural status.

Some great arguments/points in this post and thread.

the mighty stu
02-11-2009, 01:22 PM
Aside from the AAS issue, different federations have stances on various 'other' substances. I was going to compete in the INBF until I found out that by using Biotest's Hot Roxx, I was technically in violation of their drug policy -lol. Then I realized how much $ goes into ads in their magazine from Muscletech and realized why.

S

TheSpirit
02-15-2009, 01:52 PM
2 people who are probably lying about being natural = Kyoshi Moody/Jeff Rodriguez.


Natural = Never taking any of the drugs on the banned substances list in your whole life unless it's for a valid prescription.

Using prohormones and other designer drugs are remove you from being natty. Unfortunately people think just because they didn't inject that makes them natty. They are wrong.


^ i agree. i can't stand people who say they're natural just because they haven't taken anything in a couple years.


As far as i'm concerned, any active chemical(that increases performance) present in the body that can't be found in whole food sources compromises the natural status.

If some over the counter product contains a chemical not found in nature which will increase performance, that compromises natural status.

I realise i'll get a bunch of guys who use over the counter chemicals but consider themselves natural jumping all over me.In terms of ethics, i don't see any difference between using an over the counter unnatural chemical(which increases performance) or an illegal steroid.Both are not found in nature/food sources,both increase performance, both are shortcuts.

Regarding steroids, once the active substance is gone and the bb doesn't benefit from it anymore, i consider him on the way to natural status.

I guess. I guy that has taken aas and prohormones for several years then drops it is still not natty. They are just not enhanced. The drugs changed their body chemistry forever.

greuceanu
02-15-2009, 02:32 PM
I guess. I guy that has taken aas and prohormones for several years then drops it is still not natty. They are just not enhanced. The drugs changed their body chemistry forever.

No they didn't. Body reverts to normal after a while. They're not lifetime natural, but after a while,they're back to natural status. If you mean their test poduction has shut down, which is an extreme case, that would put them at a disadvantage anyways.

You must be one of those who never took anything and they perceive they have some sort of disadvantage vs someone that has used years ago.

Jake DeMichele
02-15-2009, 06:00 PM
I've used novadex XT and DHEA and still consider myself "natural" and drug/steroid free. I didn't know these substances were banned from the INBF and they told me I had to wait 2 years until I can compete in their organization.

Skeptic
02-15-2009, 07:42 PM
There really should be 3 catagories Lifetime Nattie/Nattie(as of "insert time last on")/and On Gear at least it would make it a little clearer I guess ;). I have no probs at all with guys on Gear or guys not on Gear, I just don't really like it when people lie about it :rolleyes:.

I love it:

Mr Olympia (On gear)
Mr Vaguely Natural Olympia (Natural now but has used gear at some point)
Mr Tricky Natural Olympia (Geared up but beat the test)
Mr Blew It Natural Olympia (Failed the drug test for taking cold medication)
Mr Banned Bastard Not Natural Olympia (Geared at a natural show and caught like the worm you are)
Mr Natural Olympia in My Mind (Can't compete because you'd get slaughtered you skinny bitch, but you brag that you'd win)
Mr Technically Still Natural Olympia (Used to compete naturally but got geared and now won't compete against the big boys but doesn't know how to beat the tests so you don't compete at all)

I'm sure there are many others titles that we could award.

Skeptic
02-15-2009, 07:45 PM
No they didn't. Body reverts to normal after a while. They're not lifetime natural, but after a while,they're back to natural status. If you mean their test poduction has shut down, which is an extreme case, that would put them at a disadvantage anyways.

You must be one of those who never took anything and they perceive they have some sort of disadvantage vs someone that has used years ago.

I read a recent study indicating that there was evidence that the increases in join structure and support tissues carried over for life.

TheSpirit
02-15-2009, 09:45 PM
No they didn't. Body reverts to normal after a while. They're not lifetime natural, but after a while,they're back to natural status. If you mean their test poduction has shut down, which is an extreme case, that would put them at a disadvantage anyways.

You must be one of those who never took anything and they perceive they have some sort of disadvantage vs someone that has used years ago.
Nope I could give a f3ck what others put in there bodies. I don't split hairs. It is what it is and if people want to lie to themselves it doesn't change anything.


If you cheated on your wife once, you will always have cheated on her regardless of whether she forgives you or not.


I claim NO advantages or disadvantages. People will go through whatever lengths they feel they need to to be "successful".

tight booty
02-16-2009, 07:32 AM
Many natural federations require competitor's to be 7 years drug free. They polygraph everyone and drug test the top competitor's. Most will ban you for life if caught cheating.
Yes I think that sounds about right...well in Australia, that is in regards to being drug free for 7 years before they will allow you to compete in a natural federation!

Anthony
02-16-2009, 11:27 AM
IMO natural status is like weight or age divisions - folks want a fair competition in whatever field they compete in. At least in the US you can shop around for the "natural" federation that best meets your predelictions.

Koubs
02-16-2009, 03:05 PM
I think people need to accept that some people simply have

1. Great genetics
2. A love for bodybuilding
3. The willingness to put in the time & effort to be successful
4. Dedication and Discipline

I think people can do some pretty amazing things with their body without drugs... How can you say specific people are "lying" about their natural status based simply by how they look?? That's not being fair... Call me naive, but if someone says their natural and it hasn't been proven false, I would believe them... The truth will always eventually come out.......

I've competed in shows and been beaten by guys that are on drugs (Musclemania shows)... then I find out later that they failed the test and I received a higher placing because of disqualification... At the Musclemania Worlds in Las Vegas, there was an undisclosed 'large' number of positive tests... One guy that was competing at the show was someone I had competed against 2 years before, and I know for a FACT that he had previously taken drugs because he had FAILED a urinalysis test 2 years prior... Yet somehow he competed again in this show... Things like that are upsetting because some guys DO indeed try to beat the system... But not ALL guys that look really good are cheating...

As others have said: As long as you're 'playing by the rules' of that particular federation, that LEVEL PLAYING FIELD is what the true goal of natural bodybuilding should be

Strikerrjones
02-16-2009, 04:14 PM
No they didn't. Body reverts to normal after a while. They're not lifetime natural, but after a while,they're back to natural status. If you mean their test poduction has shut down, which is an extreme case, that would put them at a disadvantage anyways.

You must be one of those who never took anything and they perceive they have some sort of disadvantage vs someone that has used years ago.

I remember reading an article in the February MD about how steroid users that stopped using years ago still retain an advantage over non users because the muscle cells contain more nuclei or something like that. I'd look up the exact article, but I'm at work so I can't... if I remember I'll do it later.

greuceanu
02-17-2009, 01:44 AM
If you cheated on your wife once, you will always have cheated on her regardless of whet

Excellent comparison, the human body works exactly like a relationship.Props.


I remember reading an article in the February MD about how steroid users that stopped using years ago still retain an advantage over non users because the muscle cells contain more nuclei or something like that. I'd look up the exact article, but I'm at work so I can't... if I remember I'll do it later.

Would appreciate if you can dig it up,that sounds interesting.Was adaptation to exercise excluded as possible cause?

Strikerrjones
02-17-2009, 09:23 AM
Found it. It's by Robbie Durand, on page 202 of the February 2009 issue if anybody has it.

The study was done on powerlifters that hadn't taken steroids for years. All traces of the drugs were out of their systems, but "changes in the shoulder and quadriceps still gave lifters an advantage, years later."

"Muscle characteristics were compared for groups of powerlifters who were currently using steroids, had history of past steroid abuse but were clean at the time of the study, and lifetime drug-free lifters. One thing that should be mentioned is that the groups of former steroid users were either training at a low intensity, or had quit lifting and become sedentary. The former steroid users had used testosterone in combination with other anabolic steroids (nandrolone, stanozolol, Primobolan, oxymetholone, Masteron, Proviron and durobolan). A mean dosage of 983 mg of testosterone per week was used during the anabolic steroid usage. Muscle fiber distribution, fiber area, androgen receptors, and satellite cell number per muscle fiber were analyzed in two skeletal muscles; the thigh and the trapezius.
The researchers found that several years after anabolic steroid withdrawal, and with no or low current strength training, the muscle fiber area and the number of nuclei per fiber in the quadriceps was still comparable to that of athletes who were currently performing high-intensity strength training. They also discovered that the shoulder-neck fiber areas were comparable to high intensity trained athletes and the number of nuclei per fiber was even higher than found in the current steroid-using group. Interestingly, the group of powerlifters who had abused steroids but were clean at the time of the study had a greater number of androgen receptors in the thigh, compared to that of the natural powerlifters and powerlifting group currently using steroids.
In conclusion, several years after anabolic steroid withdrawal and with no or low-intensity strength-training, the muscle fiber area and the number of nuclei per fiber in the thigh is still comparable to that of athletes who are performing high-intensity strength training. In trapezius, fiber areas are comparable to high-intensity trained athletes. The number of nuclei per fiber is even higher than in the steroid-using group. The high number of nuclei might be beneficial for an athlete who continues or resumes strength training, because a high number of myonuclei gives the possibility to an increased protein synthesis and increased muscle mass."

Ouch, my fingers. There's more comparing detraining, but it pretty much says the same thing.

Tiki
02-17-2009, 06:49 PM
My question is, are there organizations that test "every" competitor for substances?



.

greuceanu
02-18-2009, 03:16 PM
Found it. It's by Robbie Durand, on page 202 of the February 2009 issue if anybody has it.

The study was done on powerlifters that hadn't taken steroids for years. All traces of the drugs were out of their systems, but "changes in the shoulder and quadriceps still gave lifters an advantage, years later."

"Muscle characteristics were compared for groups of powerlifters who were currently using steroids, had history of past steroid abuse but were clean at the time of the study, and lifetime drug-free lifters. One thing that should be mentioned is that the groups of former steroid users were either training at a low intensity, or had quit lifting and become sedentary. The former steroid users had used testosterone in combination with other anabolic steroids (nandrolone, stanozolol, Primobolan, oxymetholone, Masteron, Proviron and durobolan). A mean dosage of 983 mg of testosterone per week was used during the anabolic steroid usage. Muscle fiber distribution, fiber area, androgen receptors, and satellite cell number per muscle fiber were analyzed in two skeletal muscles; the thigh and the trapezius.
The researchers found that several years after anabolic steroid withdrawal, and with no or low current strength training, the muscle fiber area and the number of nuclei per fiber in the quadriceps was still comparable to that of athletes who were currently performing high-intensity strength training. They also discovered that the shoulder-neck fiber areas were comparable to high intensity trained athletes and the number of nuclei per fiber was even higher than found in the current steroid-using group. Interestingly, the group of powerlifters who had abused steroids but were clean at the time of the study had a greater number of androgen receptors in the thigh, compared to that of the natural powerlifters and powerlifting group currently using steroids.
In conclusion, several years after anabolic steroid withdrawal and with no or low-intensity strength-training, the muscle fiber area and the number of nuclei per fiber in the thigh is still comparable to that of athletes who are performing high-intensity strength training. In trapezius, fiber areas are comparable to high-intensity trained athletes. The number of nuclei per fiber is even higher than in the steroid-using group. The high number of nuclei might be beneficial for an athlete who continues or resumes strength training, because a high number of myonuclei gives the possibility to an increased protein synthesis and increased muscle mass."

Ouch, my fingers. There's more comparing detraining, but it pretty much says the same thing.

Thanks for the effort man,i appreciate it.

An interesting text for sure. I'm not a scientist but i have a few comments:

Say group A is former users who work out at low intensity or don't work out at all. Group B is non users who work out at high intensity. Group C is current users who work out at high intensity.

-they only compared A with B and C, they didn't compare B and C. Which is strange, because it could potentially be that B and C have the same values, so there would be no immediate advantage between current users and non users; They say A is comparable to B and higher than C, which again,is strange, meaning that former steroid users and current non users have a higher number than current steroid users.

-they didn't create a D category, which would be former non users who trained at low intensity or didn't train at all.A comparison between A and D would provide interesting data, the study does not explain if A and D would have different values, so an advantage for former users.

-It only says that A is comparable to B and higher than C, it doesn't say that A is higher than B, so it doesn't suggest an advantage of former users who don't train over current non users who train.

The only conclusion that i can draw is that former users who stopped working out might have an easier time getting back into it, but not an advantage over current non users.

Interesting study though, will keep it in mind.

Strikerrjones
02-18-2009, 08:07 PM
Thanks for the effort man,i appreciate it.

An interesting text for sure. I'm not a scientist but i have a few comments:

Say group A is former users who work out at low intensity or don't work out at all. Group B is non users who work out at high intensity. Group C is current users who work out at high intensity.

-they only compared A with B and C, they didn't compare B and C. Which is strange, because it could potentially be that B and C have the same values, so there would be no immediate advantage between current users and non users; They say A is comparable to B and higher than C, which again,is strange, meaning that former steroid users and current non users have a higher number than current steroid users.

-they didn't create a D category, which would be former non users who trained at low intensity or didn't train at all.A comparison between A and D would provide interesting data, the study does not explain if A and D would have different values, so an advantage for former users.

-It only says that A is comparable to B and higher than C, it doesn't say that A is higher than B, so it doesn't suggest an advantage of former users who don't train over current non users who train.

The only conclusion that i can draw is that former users who stopped working out might have an easier time getting back into it, but not an advantage over current non users.

Interesting study though, will keep it in mind.


It would have been good to know the age of the users too. Maybe the past users had more nuclei than current users because the current users had only been using for a few years and the past users were older and had used for much, much longer. Who knows. I guess I could look up the actual studies, but I'm far too lazy.

greuceanu
02-18-2009, 08:10 PM
It would have been good to know the age of the users too. Maybe the past users had more nuclei than current users because the current users had only been using for a few years and the past users were older and had used for much, much longer. Who knows. I guess I could look up the actual studies, but I'm far too lazy.

Nah,you typed long enough:). I think it's enough for me to find what i wanted about that study.

B-DUB-
02-19-2009, 08:46 PM
So basically, a 40 plus year old male with low test levels, recieving HRT, within normal range, can NOT compete in a natural competition??
I'm unclear of the rules.

Bacon Boy
02-19-2009, 09:30 PM
So basically, a 40 plus year old male with low test levels, recieving HRT, within normal range, can NOT compete in a natural competition??
I'm unclear of the rules.

That would be correct

B-DUB-
02-21-2009, 01:48 AM
That would be correct

that means "screwed" either way then.................

Bacon Boy
02-21-2009, 08:14 AM
that means "screwed" either way then.................

2 for 2 B-DUB!

gman
02-21-2009, 09:35 AM
that means "screwed" either way then.................

yes, it means screwed. Just TRT to get to 600, and you have to compete in NPC shows against juicers who have levels in the 3000 range.

For most of us average Joe types, it means we have to compete as middleweights, because our lbm is not very heavy, and we have to cut to 165-170 to get to 5% bf.

Everex238
02-21-2009, 09:44 AM
maybe we should get some pics going in here!

NTBB
02-21-2009, 07:17 PM
I also think that we need stop stressing bout others and focus on ourselves. The last show i did there speculations that this person "on" and this person is. Which only pushed my stress to god knows what level. And for this, it defintly had an impact on the final product i bought (not making excuses tho) But I don't wanna be told that someone is on, i still wanna believe that one day i could look like that person.
Lets face it there will always be cheats in our sport, hopefully one day they'll get caught. But all i really want is to beat myself from the yr/show before.

Blakryno
02-22-2009, 11:40 AM
Guess after a year of hormone replacement therapy I'll never be able to compete in a nat. orginisation till I'm 40.

B-DUB-
03-05-2009, 09:14 AM
as long as your levels are in the normal range, how can they even test you?

B-DUB-
03-05-2009, 09:17 AM
2 for 2 B-DUB!

btw, it's alot of "natties" walking around loaded full of pro-hormones, are they natural?
Inquiring minds would like to know, lol
i had a promoter that couldnt give me a clear and honest answer as well, he said, if its a sponsers product you can take it, hmmmmmmmmm
screw it compete, win, you win, lose, you lose...........

Koubs
03-05-2009, 12:37 PM
I also think that we need stop stressing bout others and focus on ourselves. The last show i did there speculations that this person "on" and this person is. Which only pushed my stress to god knows what level. And for this, it defintly had an impact on the final product i bought (not making excuses tho) But I don't wanna be told that someone is on, i still wanna believe that one day i could look like that person.
Lets face it there will always be cheats in our sport, hopefully one day they'll get caught. But all i really want is to beat myself from the yr/show before.

GREAT POST BRO!! This is what I always tell people interested in competing... They too wrapped up in "winning", when they should really focus on what they actually have control over!!: Doing everything possible to make improvements to THEMSELVES!!

Sure someone might have cheated... Sure someone might have better genetics... Sure someone might have been training longer... Just do what YOU have control over: BUST YOUR ASS EVERY DAY

greuceanu
03-05-2009, 06:31 PM
GREAT POST BRO!! This is what I always tell people interested in competing... They too wrapped up in "winning"

Some people like to win though, after all, that's the core of a competition, proving you're better than others.If you like to compete with yourself you don't really need to enter a competition where others are present.

Koubs
03-05-2009, 09:59 PM
I hear you... but what I'm saying is that you really don't have control over what others do... If WINNING gives you increased motivation, great, use that motivation for sure... But there's no defense in bodybuilding, so when you get up on stage, all the work is done...

I'm just saying bring the best package YOU can bring... Do whatever YOU can do... If you do that, the winning will eventually take care of itself... Just my perspective

Bacon Boy
03-06-2009, 07:49 AM
as long as your levels are in the normal range, how can they even test you?

They test will show synthetic drug's ester, like with testosterone e, the enthanate ester allows it to stay in the system but, it also help show the item in a drug test.


btw, it's alot of "natties" walking around loaded full of pro-hormones, are they natural?

It depends on who your competing under the NPC, allows for anything that can be currently bought, all the other federations, do not allow you to even use DHEA...

I have a "natural" bodybuilder come into my GNC all the time not only does he look sickly, but he goes through a bottle of trib a week!

meatheadio
03-06-2009, 07:05 PM
With our rapidly expanding access to new science and a broad range of supplements and super supplements there are many products that some would say keep them 'natural' while others wouldn't consider touching them.
Any idiot should know that there are dozens of products out there which are available over the couter but are anything but natural. Examples include ALR's test booster, MHP's SARM-X and dozens of others. Basically if your natural you should be able to stay on all your supplements and pass a drug test any day of the year, and shouldn't need 8 weeks to 'clear your system'. To be truly natural it means year round 100% free of all substances of the banned list, not just on the day of the contest.
In addition to this insulin, IGF-1, GH, prohormones and any form of steroid are obviously out of the question.

meatheadio
03-06-2009, 07:12 PM
btw, it's alot of "natties" walking around loaded full of pro-hormones, are they natural?
Inquiring minds would like to know, lol
i had a promoter that couldnt give me a clear and honest answer as well, he said, if its a sponsers product you can take it, hmmmmmmmmm
screw it compete, win, you win, lose, you lose...........

Gotta love this comment. "if its a sponsors product..."
Despite the fact that if you took the full range of many companies supplements you could not compete in any natural federation.
Just pop those pills and pretend everything is alright.
Ignorance truly is bliss.

Reloaded
03-07-2009, 03:40 PM
As far as i'm concerned, any active chemical(that increases performance) present in the body that can't be found in whole food sources compromises the natural status.

If some over the counter product contains a chemical not found in nature which will increase performance, that compromises natural status.

I realise i'll get a bunch of guys who use over the counter chemicals but consider themselves natural jumping all over me.In terms of ethics, i don't see any difference between using an over the counter unnatural chemical(which increases performance) or an illegal steroid.Both are not found in nature/food sources,both increase performance, both are shortcuts.

Regarding steroids, once the active substance is gone and the bb doesn't benefit from it anymore, i consider him on the way to natural status.

ionized whey isn't found in nature, but u guys use Isopure, creatine ethyl ester isn't either.

greuceanu
03-09-2009, 11:52 PM
FYI, I don't use either.Just use microfiltered whey a couple of times a week.

Notice i mentioned 'increase in performance' though, we're talking about non natural for the purpose of bodybuilding,otherwise you wouldn't be natural if you ate a burger that contains substances not found in nature or took 2 aspirins.

I will modify my definition slightly-just as long as a chemical compound produces increases in performance superior to any relatively similar compound you can find in whole food sources.

B-DUB-
03-11-2009, 10:46 AM
the promoter that wants me in his show also does lie detector, how well does that work??

Koubs
03-11-2009, 03:44 PM
Lie detector is really accurate, but again, there's always a chance that someone can beat that test as well... Combination of urinalysis and lie detector would be best

Tatyana
03-11-2009, 04:11 PM
There really should be 3 catagories Lifetime Nattie/Nattie(as of "insert time last on")/and On Gear at least it would make it a little clearer I guess ;). I have no probs at all with guys on Gear or guys not on Gear, I just don't really like it when people lie about it :rolleyes:.

There is in the UK. BNBF - 10 years clean, NPA - lifetime natural


My question is, are there organizations that test "every" competitor for substances?



.

No, but most test the winners of every class, or at least they do so at the finals (urinalysis and lie detector).

I was tested last summer, one of the random drug tests, and I didn't place in the top three.

I think it was because I looked like a mass monster next to the other girls. :)


With our rapidly expanding access to new science and a broad range of supplements and super supplements there are many products that some would say keep them 'natural' while others wouldn't consider touching them.
Any idiot should know that there are dozens of products out there which are available over the couter but are anything but natural. Examples include ALR's test booster, MHP's SARM-X and dozens of others. Basically if your natural you should be able to stay on all your supplements and pass a drug test any day of the year, and shouldn't need 8 weeks to 'clear your system'. To be truly natural it means year round 100% free of all substances of the banned list, not just on the day of the contest.
In addition to this insulin, IGF-1, GH, prohormones and any form of steroid are obviously out of the question.


I only use whey protein and creatine monohydrate on occasion. I try and get them from hippy dippy health food sources rather that a BBing supp company as there have been far too many cases of contamination of supps, even vitamins.

As far as the 'anyone can pass a lie detector', I think that is an urban myth. Research indicates the accuracy to be between 80-90%, so yes, some could pass, but not everyone.

A funny thing happens quite often in the UK. More often than not, people have been tested between qualifier and final as someone tells the officials they are using. Yes, we hate a cheat.

thepump
03-21-2009, 05:41 AM
Interesting study, great thread. my hat will all ways go off to the Natural..

AlonePowers
03-27-2009, 02:00 PM
Nic Jones.

As each fed differs, as long as you play to their rules i dont think it really matters.

What shits me is the gutless trophy hunter who juice to the gills the go in natty comps.
F*ck yeah. I agree. If they want a trophy let them buy it on ebay! As a Natty competitor I have several competitive goals in the INBF before I decide to switch to chemistry and compete in the NPC..... These other offenders will be called out on that Bull Shit especially by me!:bowdown::flex:

BrandonBass
03-27-2009, 10:24 PM
IMO there IS no more natural status once you start taking performance enhancers... You will have made gains you probably would never obtain without any enhancers. Take a guy like Flex Wheeler - there's nothing "natural" freakish about him! He's still got some good size on his muscles that are caused by years of steroid use.
That just my opinion anyway.

Well, the fact that Flex Wheeler is called the "Natural Freak" is pretty rediculous. A guy who was downing 40 Halotestin a day will NEVER be considered the natural anything in my opinion! What a joke!

Curt James
03-28-2009, 12:13 AM
I remember in an epsiode of NBR where they were talking about the polygraph and saying that anyone could beat those things.

Although my memory is crrrrrap, that definitely rings a bell. Seem to recall that as well, Nic. :beerbang:

AVBG
03-28-2009, 02:38 AM
polygraphs are not good ways to catch out the cheats and if you know what you are going to be asked there are ways to get around it.