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Frosty
08-09-2009, 07:12 PM
Okay I've heard a lot before that breakfast should be the largest meal when it comes to body composition. Is there any research to back this up? If so, are the effects through suppressed appetite for the rest of the day or some other mechanism?

I've also heard that the composition of breakfast can affect insulin sensitivity for the rest of the day. Is this true as well?

Also I've read but can't remember where that breakfast will also affect cognitive ability for the entire day. Again any truth to this?


For me personally I like a large breakfast. Something big and satisfying, FOR ME low carb and stimulating proteins....for example 10 eggs and maybe a few strips of bacon (the bacon just for taste :D ) I'm also interested in something like this for appetite control because I have a hard time not eating too much meat and eggs when gaining.

GottaGetLean
08-09-2009, 07:14 PM
Okay I've heard a lot before that breakfast should be the largest meal when it comes to body composition. Is there any research to back this up? If so, are the effects through suppressed appetite for the rest of the day or some other mechanism?

I've also heard that the composition of breakfast can affect insulin sensitivity for the rest of the day. Is this true as well?

Also I've read but can't remember where that breakfast will also affect cognitive ability for the entire day. Again any truth to this?


For me personally I like a large breakfast. Something big and satisfying, FOR ME low carb and stimulating proteins....for example 10 eggs and maybe a few strips of bacon (the bacon just for taste :D ) I'm also interested in something like this for appetite control because I have a hard time not eating too much meat and eggs when gaining.

Ive always heard calories should be spread out equally throughout the day.. Ive never heard of 1 meal having to bigger then all the rest.

Frosty
08-09-2009, 07:17 PM
From a calorie balance stand-point it makes sense for breakfast to be large. You didn't eat for at least 8 hours.

And for me one really big issue is the appetite thing. Small breakfast means I'm hungry more during the day, so if I can eat a big breakfast and be more satisfied that would help tremendously on a mass gaining diet.

Frosty
08-09-2009, 07:25 PM
Also considering nutrient timing, which is something John Berardi has really brought to attention. One major concept was carb timing and because insulin sensitivity is higher in the morning to have more carbs with breakfast, and especially more in the post-workout period. So I was thinking for me even on a low carb diet, if sensitivity to food intake is better in the morning along with the highest negative calorie balance at this time, it seems to make sense to have a larger breakfast for lean mass gains.

GottaGetLean
08-09-2009, 07:45 PM
I have no appetite at all in the morning so I never have a big breakfast.. majority of the time its only a shake and 2 pieces of ezekiel bread.
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=tCc&ei=V1F_SuTqIcT7tgeC2PT8AQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=ezekiel+bread&spell=1)

Frosty
08-09-2009, 07:54 PM
Well it would also make sense to listen to your body to an extent. But then again if you eat a lot at night are you going to be hungry in the morning? But if that's not the case I don't believe in force-feeding the body in the morning. For me I wake up very hungry and I love a big breakfast....even if I eat a lot at night lol. I like to think that listening to the body to a degree is a smart thing and perhaps for me at least having a breakfast larger than other meals might be a good thing.

fitmomma3
08-09-2009, 08:44 PM
I have always felt Breakfast and post workout meals are your two meals of the day where you can be a little liberal whether it be extra carbs/calories (maybe even fruit). Plus I always followed the old school sliced book and that goes on the principal of tapering your calories over your meals to the end of the day. I don't necessarily taper but I do time more carbs at breakfast or post workout. The way I see it is your body's best burning ability is early in the day after not eating all night and when you are going to be the most active so you need and will burn the fuel... as opossed to meals after 4pm I try to cut carbs and calories as you are less active and preparing for sleep and don't wish to store calories/fat.

killercalvz
08-10-2009, 02:29 PM
i dont think breakfast needs to be any bigger than any other meal you would eat throughout the day. breakfast for me is usually 8 eggwhites and 2 whole eggs with 1 cup oatmeal and vitamins etc. and from time to time i will drink eggwhites instead and just add 2 tblspoon of olive oil to get fats. if your worried about body burning muscle over that 8hour spread of not eating maybe you could add casein protein shake before bed?

Dr Pangloss
08-11-2009, 07:16 PM
I dont see a single citation of a controlled study on the subject. It's kind of hard to call this thread science if noone uses rigorously obtained facts.

Frosty
08-11-2009, 10:57 PM
I dont see a single citation of a controlled study on the subject. It's kind of hard to call this thread science if noone uses rigorously obtained facts.


What's what I was trying to see if there is any data to support or disprove this :) We can talk theory all day long but it comes down to whether it works or not.

Dr Pangloss
08-12-2009, 07:25 PM
Best to start searching the literature then.

Frosty
08-12-2009, 09:46 PM
Wow thanks then this forum is fucking useless. Thanks for the input. We all should just go read literature.

Dr Pangloss
08-12-2009, 09:51 PM
that's right bro. I'm not your fucking tool.

You need to learn to think for yourself.

Given your politics, it's clear that you find the idea of thinking for yourself too difficult to grasp.

good luck with your bodybuilding.:)

Frosty
08-12-2009, 09:55 PM
Yeah thanks because we're not here to share information. We all share information with each other and that's what these forums are for. Go stay in the politics forum if you're just going to come in here only to tell people that you're not going to help them. That's fucking retarded.

Dr Pangloss
08-12-2009, 10:00 PM
I'm not going to pollute my friend TPT's forum anymore.


I'm out.


Seeyah.:wavey:

TPT
08-13-2009, 02:34 AM
ok, a lot of questions here.

Okay I've heard a lot before that breakfast should be the largest meal when it comes to body composition. Is there any research to back this up? If so, are the effects through suppressed appetite for the rest of the day or some other mechanism?

i will leave out concepts in circadian rhythmn for now. it might provide more interesting talks later of glucose and insulin control.

anyway, evidence continues to build on two fronts as far as satiety- increased protein and fiber. maybe ill go into fiber later in regards to glucose tolerance and satiety.

on to protein.

we all love protein. well as least we eat lots of eat. convincing evidence exists that protein elicits thermic effects relative to fat and carbs. about 15 studies exist with similar results suggesting so. here is one of many references. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10193874 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10193874) even studies on higher protein having greater thermogenic effects than lower protein. more on mechanisms later.

evidence of higher protein diets and increased satiety are availabe. however, im skeptical of much of the research on this because of too many friggin variables uncontrolled. e.g., satiety is gonna be influenced by many variables including solid vs liquid, food mass, palatability, fiber, and glycemic index. plus, ive seen mixed results in studies of the other macros. one very interesting paper found a very tight correlation between thermo effects and satiety. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10403587?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10403587?dopt=Abstract)

I've also heard that the composition of breakfast can affect insulin sensitivity for the rest of the day. Is this true as well?

if youre concerned of improved glucose tolerance, make sure you include low gi carbs and fiber. your breakfast actually may have effects on subsequent meals and improve insulin sensitivity. most of these studies are not using our bodybuilding macros though we can still make valid applications.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/35/6/1339?http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/4/647?
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/87/3/645

Also I've read but can't remember where that breakfast will also affect cognitive ability for the entire day. Again any truth to this?

this is true. too much to talk about and lots in the pedicatric literature.

For me personally I like a large breakfast. Something big and satisfying, FOR ME low carb and stimulating proteins....for example 10 eggs and maybe a few strips of bacon (the bacon just for taste :D ) I'm also interested in something like this for appetite control because I have a hard time not eating too much meat and eggs when gaining.

there was actually a study that showed that that an egg breakfast in comparison to an bagel breakfast which was isocaloric and equal-weight decreased lunch time energy intake among overweight and obese subjects. http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/24/6/510 (http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/24/6/510)

TPT
08-13-2009, 10:09 AM
i dont think any applicable studies on large versus small breakfasts exist. maybe someone can find some. however, much of the info i presented can easily apply to the orginal question.

high protein breakfast, low gi carbs with fiber might be good best choice in sustained glucose tolerance and total fat management.

as far as a large breakfast, their might be satiating effects based simply on the density of the meal with the effects already mentioned such as sustained glucose. i suspect whether a large breakfast is efficacious is based on one's objectives.

Frosty
08-13-2009, 12:44 PM
Here's a question, then. When talking very low carb diets, how would a high fat breakfast compare to a moderate fat breakfast? Meaning do they elicit different effects such as one allowing better insulin sensitivity throughout the day, affecting the substrate used for energy throughout the day, etc. Let's just say a breakfast that's 40% calories from fat vs. say 60% calories from fat.

TPT
08-13-2009, 02:17 PM
Here's a question, then. When talking very low carb diets, how would a high fat breakfast compare to a moderate fat breakfast? Meaning do they elicit different effects such as one allowing better insulin sensitivity throughout the day, affecting the substrate used for energy throughout the day, etc. Let's just say a breakfast that's 40% calories from fat vs. say 60% calories from fat.



yeah thats tough to answer. first, we dont human studies looking at the upper limits such as 60 percent. if im incorrect, someone please post some literature. but, what we do know is that you would prefer to have more monounsaturated fat than saturated. mono improves insulin sensitivity while saturated fat reduces. also, from the popular kanwu study if one uses high fat contents mainly of saturated fats the effects of the mono fats would essentially be "canceled" (vesby et al. 2001).

60 percent is quite a lot.

anyone else have a take on this?

TPT
08-14-2009, 12:01 AM
more on eggs or hight protein breakfast, satiety, and stable glucose.


http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/23/1_MeetingAbstracts/541.1
Macronutrient composition of breakfast influences plasma glucose, satiety hormones and caloric intake in the next 24 h in adult men.
Joseph C Ratliff1, Jose O Leite1, Ryan DeOgburn1, Michael J Puglisi1, Shymaa Ata1 and Maria Luz Fernandez1

1 Nutritional Sciences, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT

ABSTRACT
We examined the effect of the macronutrient composition of breakfast on postprandial satiety and caloric intake throughout the day. Using a crossover design, 22 men aged 20-70 y, consumed two isocaloric test breakfasts in a random order separated by one wk. The macronutrient composition of the breakfasts were: EGG: % CHO:fat: protein = 22:55:23 or BAGEL: % CHO:fat:protein = 72:12:16. Fasting blood samples were drawn at baseline before the test breakfast and at 30, 60, 120, and 180 min after breakfast. After 180 min, subjects were given a standard lunch and asked to eat until satisfied. Subjects filled out visual analog scales (VAS) during each blood draw and recorded food intake the day before and after test days. Plasma glucose and appetite hormones were analyzed at each time point. Subjects consumed fewer calories following the EGG breakfast compared to the BAGEL breakfast (P < 0.01). Additionally, subjects consumed more calories in the 24h period after the BAGEL breakfast compared to the EGG breakfast (P < 0.05). Based on VAS, subjects were hungrier and less satisfied 3h after the BAGEL breakfast compared to the EGG. In addition, subjects had lower plasma glucose 3h post BAGEL (P < 0.05) and higher plasma ghrelin concentrations 30 min post BAGEL (P < 0.05) compared to post EGG. These findings suggest that consumption of a protein-rich breakfast (EGG) results in less variation in plasma glucose levels, lower acute ghrelin response at 30 min and a reduced caloric intake [Supported by the Egg Nutrition Center]

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=4773500Increased
dietary protein consumed at breakfast leads to an initial and sustained feeling of fullness during energy restriction compared to other meal times
Abstract
The objective of the study was to assess whether the timing of increased dietary protein throughout the day influences the feelings of fullness during energy balance (EB) and restriction (ER). Nine men (age 48 (sem 6) years; BMI 327 (sem 07) kg/m2) randomly completed five controlled feeding trials, each consisting of 3 d of EB, followed by 3 d of ER of a 3138 kJ/d (750 kcal/d) reduction). The diet was composed of a normal amount of protein (NP) (08 g protein/kg per d), or an additional amount of protein (HP) (+06 g protein/kg per d) given at breakfast (HP-B), lunch (HP-L), dinner (HP-D) or equally divided among all meals (HP-E). Meal-related (3 h postprandial) and overall (15 h composite) feelings of fullness were assessed from thirteen-point, numbered, linear category scale questionnaires (reported as arbitrary units (au)). When comparing HP treatments, the data are presented as difference from NP. No differences in meal-related or overall fullness were observed among HP treatments during EB. During ER, the HP-B led to greater meal-related fullness (+137 (sem 44) au 180 min) compared to HP-D ( − 1 (sem 37) au 180 min; P = 0003), but not for HP-L (+62 (sem 53) au 180 min; P = 0188) or HP-E-B (+92 (sem 85) au 180 min; P = 0587). HP-B also led to greater overall (15 h) fullness (+404 (sem 162) au 900 min) v. HP-L (+33 (sem 162) au 900 min; P = 0009) and HP-D ( − 60 (sem 132) au 900 min; P = 005), but not HP-E (+274 (sem 165) au 900 min; P = 0188). The initial and sustained feelings of fullness following protein consumption at breakfast suggests that the timing of protein intake differentially influences satiety during ER.
(Received March 28 2008)

Frosty
08-14-2009, 02:17 AM
yeah thats tough to answer. first, we dont human studies looking at the upper limits such as 60 percent. if im incorrect, someone please post some literature. but, what we do know is that you would prefer to have more monounsaturated fat than saturated. mono improves insulin sensitivity while saturated fat reduces. also, from the popular kanwu study if one uses high fat contents mainly of saturated fats the effects of the mono fats would essentially be "canceled" (vesby et al. 2001).

60 percent is quite a lot.

anyone else have a take on this?

And egg breakfast would be around 60% so the egg study was helpful :)

I do have to wonder what a 40% fat breakfast would do compared to a 60% fat egg breakfast, though.

Frosty
08-22-2009, 03:30 AM
mono improves insulin sensitivity while saturated fat reduces. also, from the popular kanwu study if one uses high fat contents mainly of saturated fats the effects of the mono fats would essentially be "canceled" (vesby et al. 2001).


Hey Rapist, this answer I have a little trouble with. Let me explain why....

No normal cut of meat is mostly saturated fat. Nor are eggs. The only fats that are mostly saturated would be milk fat (butter, cream, cheese, etc) or palm oils like coconut oil as far as I know.

Is there an amount of saturated fat that makes a difference? So would it be a scale like say olive oil is best for IS, then say eggs, then say cheese, then coconut oil? I would imagine it would be more of a scale like this than just a threshold, but I could be wrong.