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tammyp
08-14-2009, 05:03 PM
Hi there,

In the middle of what is proving to be exhaustive research, I stumbled upon this forum. Found some great stuff so far! But I'm hoping you can help me further; let me start with the stats:
age: 39, height:5'2" and current weight: 121
years training: began competing 2007
present diet and training regime: currently in comp prep; weights 4 days; 5 days cardio
past AS use and results: used Tren by Americell Labs (OTC) with good results; some virilization that went away when I stopped taking; overall good gains from it, but did make me edgy and inpatient at times
goals. do you compete? Yes, Figure

Okay, i want to give you as much background as possible, without boring you to death! I did 3 shows in 2007 without incident, meaning, no problems. In 2008, I did 3 shows and did really well, but had to train really hard this go round, as i had put on more fat in the offseason. I ran Tren for 3 weeks before each show. So from Feb to July last year, did 3 3 week cycles. In addition to taht, i was eating alot fo white fish and asparagus and i began to feel incredibly run down late june, but kept pushing on. Long story short, on my way back from Nationals late July, my body locked up and I began cramping like nobody's business. I found out that I had exertional rhabdomylosis due to overtraining and muscle breakdown; bloodwork showed increased creatinine levels and that i had sustained some damage to my liver and kidney. I was not admitted to the hospital as my levels were higher than normal, but not dangerous enough to admit. i should mention that I dehydrated, flew on a plane, took a mild diurectic and had some drinks with my friends post comp - all bad! anyway, i have since recovered (plenty of fluids and rest) and am now prepping for a show.

I have since read about Tren (the OTC stuff i was taking) and conincidentally, their lab got shut down due to customers having to many probs with the product and the fact that they were essentially selling a steroid OTC. Just some info for you

anyway, i have been reading alot about anavar and am considering running a cycle. I have heard that its incredibly mild with little virilization side effects. Now everything i have read suggests starting 5mg for 14 days and then increasing to 10mg. the confusion comes in because there is no one opinion on how long to run the cycle. i have read anywhere from 4 - 12 weeks. Now, in light of my previuos issues, and wanting to do this as safely as possible, i'm am trying to get super informed. the questions I have are, what do you suggest as a safe cycle? Is there a reason for me to concerned about liver/kidney damage based on my history even though I'm fine now? (ran follow up bloodwork) My doc told me at the time (surprisingly) that some OTC stuff is actually harsher than the real thing...so I'm hoping not to run into the same issues again. I have also read that there are products you can use to protect your liver while cycling..?

anyway, ANY HELP you could give would be great. I am not ready to publicly post yet, I still am getting my feet wet and trying to learn about everything.

thank you so much!!

sassy69
08-14-2009, 05:51 PM
I can't speak to further liver / kidney damage but generally women can run var at low doses for long periods of time, like on the order of 12 weeks. The shorter cycles I've generally heard (e.g. 4 weeks) is just not enough time to let the compound do its work. Since women don't need to worry about natural test production shutting down like guys do from cycles, we don't have that pressing time consideration in running cycles.

OTC steroid-like things are essentially "prohormones". The biggest problem w/ the OTC stuff is that they are doing everything they can be just short of a real steroid, plus, to make it sound better in the marketing literature, they will throw in all sorts of other stuff, which may generally be good to take w/ whatever the product is, but isn't necessarily best to take it WITH the other stuff in the product. I.e. your body works on a system of push/pull - it requires a certain amount of one thing to enable appropriate absorption or suppression of the next thing - its a gigantic chain of events that regulate each other at the local level. Products, esp those not regulated, are not necessarily put together w/ this in mind, but rather what list of ingredients looks best on the marketing sheet. And because they can't use real steroids, they are using altered "near steroids" that may be particularly harsh. Just because its OTC doesn't mean you would want to put it in yoru system. Generally speaking, just like food - the less processed and closer to the basic unit that you can get, the better off you are.

RE: liver support - milk thistle / silymarin, cranberry extract, LIV-52, Tyler's Liver Detox are the most commonly mentioned OTC liver supports.

Sistersteel
08-14-2009, 05:58 PM
You used an OTC tren? Sounds like more of a prohormone than a steroid to me. Highly unlikely that someone would do something as stupid as try to sell an illegal drug and give it the same name. So I believe it is safe to assume it was not tren at all.

Ideally anavar would be your best and safest option. 10mg a day for starters divided in two doses of 5mg in the a.m and 5mg in the p.m. Supplement with Milk Thistle, Cranberry Extract, Liv52 for liver support.

Sistersteel
08-14-2009, 05:59 PM
I can't speak to further liver / kidney damage but generally women can run var at low doses for long periods of time, like on the order of 12 weeks. The shorter cycles I've generally heard (e.g. 4 weeks) is just not enough time to let the compound do its work. Since women don't need to worry about natural test production shutting down like guys do from cycles, we don't have that pressing time consideration in running cycles.

OTC steroid-like things are essentially "prohormones". The biggest problem w/ the OTC stuff is that they are doing everything they can be just short of a real steroid, plus, to make it sound better in the marketing literature, they will throw in all sorts of other stuff, which may generally be good to take w/ whatever the product is, but isn't necessarily best to take it WITH the other stuff in the product. I.e. your body works on a system of push/pull - it requires a certain amount of one thing to enable appropriate absorption or suppression of the next thing - its a gigantic chain of events that regulate each other at the local level. Products, esp those not regulated, are not necessarily put together w/ this in mind, but rather what list of ingredients looks best on the marketing sheet. And because they can't use real steroids, they are using altered "near steroids" that may be particularly harsh. Just because its OTC doesn't mean you would want to put it in yoru system. Generally speaking, just like food - the less processed and closer to the basic unit that you can get, the better off you are.

RE: liver support - milk thistle / silymarin, cranberry extract, LIV-52, Tyler's Liver Detox are the most commonly mentioned OTC liver supports.


Sorry sas, posted right as you did and did not notice you respond.

sassy69
08-14-2009, 06:01 PM
Sorry sas, posted right as you did and did not notice you respond.

Great minds think alike! :yep:

Bacon Boy
08-14-2009, 09:37 PM
tren from ACL is an 19 Nor compound leaving it closer relater to deca than tren...

Caligirl
08-15-2009, 12:48 AM
What is deca? Sorry, not familiar with that...

sassy69
08-15-2009, 01:06 AM
What is deca? Sorry, not familiar with that...

Deca is one of the most common injectables and has been around for a long time. Here's the steroid profile for Nandrolone Decaonate (Deca-Durabolin)

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/deca-durabolin.htm

Nandrolone (Deca Durabolin®)

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/store/media/images/main2.gif by Bill Roberts - This drug is unique (so far as I know) in that 5a -reductase, the enzyme which converts testosterone to the more-potent DHT (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/../articles/arnold/dht.htm), actually converts nandrolone to a less-potent compound. Therefore this AAS is somewhat deactivated in the skin, scalp, and prostate, and these tissues experience an effectively-lower androgen level than the rest of the body. Therefore, for the same amount of activity as another drug at the androgen receptors (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/../articles/pharmacology/androgen-receptor-regulation.htm) (ARs) in muscle tissue, Deca gives less activity in the scalp, skin, and prostate. Thus, it is the best choice for those particularly concerned with these things.
Its effectiveness at the androgen receptor (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/../articles/berardi/androgen-action-and-the-androgen-receptor.htm) of muscle tissue is superior to that of testosterone: it binds better. Yet, it gives only about half the muscle-building results per milligram. This I think is a result of its being less effective or entirely ineffective in non-AR-mediated mechanisms for muscle growth (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/../articles/haycock/non-genomic-actions-of-anabolic-steroids.htm).
It also appears less effective or entirely ineffective in activity on nerve cells, certainly on the nerve cells responsible for erectile function. Use of Deca as the sole AAS often results in complete inability to perform sexually.
These problems can be solved by combining with a drug that does supply the missing activity: e.g. testosterone (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/testosterone.htm).
Nandrolone is proven to be a progestin. This fact is of clear importance in bodybuilding, because while moderate Deca-only use actually lowers estrogen levels as a consequence of reducing natural testosterone levels and thus allowing the aromatase enzyme less substrate to work with, Deca nonetheless can cause gyno in some individuals. Furthermore, just as progesterone will to a point increase sex drive in women, and then often decrease it as levels get too high, high levels of progestogenic steroids can kill sex drive in male bodybuilders, though there is a great deal of individual variability as to what is too much.
Incidentally, this progestogenic activity also inhibits LH production, and contrary to common belief, even small amounts of Deca are quite inhibitory, approximately as much so as the same amount of testosterone.
To some extent, nandrolone aromatizes to estrogen, and it does not appear that this can be entirely blocked by use of aromatase inhibitors – indeed, aromatase may not be involved at all in this process (there is no evidence in humans that such occurs) with the enzyme CYP 2C11 being in my opinion the more likely candidate for this activity. In any case, Cytadren (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/cytadren.htm), an aromatase inhibitor, has not been found effective in avoiding aromatization of nandrolone.
The drug is moderately effective at doses of 400 mg/week. The long half-life of nandrolone decanoate makes it unsuited to short alternating cycles, but suitable for more traditional cycles, with a built-in self-tapering effect in the weeks following the last injection.

Nandrolone decanoate is the chemical name of active ingredient in Deca Durabolin. Deca Durabolin is a registered trademark of Organon Corporation in the United States and/or other countries.

Caligirl
08-17-2009, 04:17 PM
RE: liver support - milk thistle / silymarin, cranberry extract, LIV-52, Tyler's Liver Detox are the most commonly mentioned OTC liver supports.

Do you take a combo of those things or just one? how much do you normally take?

Caligirl
08-17-2009, 04:19 PM
I did read that it was a pro-hormone as well. And yes, as I mentioned, without coming right out and saying it, my doc pretty much said I would have been better off using the real stuff than taking a chance on whatever it is that might have been in the OTC crap.

Thank you for the help, I inititally asked that you submit this question anonymously as the last time I joined a forum and posted a question as a newbie, I got ripped, yikes.

sassy69
08-17-2009, 04:39 PM
Do you take a combo of those things or just one? how much do you normally take?

LIV 52 has a great reputation for liver support - that, as instructed on the bottle is a good start. SS may have more info on that.

Sistersteel
08-18-2009, 03:10 AM
LIV 52 has a great reputation for liver support - that, as instructed on the bottle is a good start. SS may have more info on that.

Words of wisdom. Nothing to add to that. :beerbang:

ubermensch
08-18-2009, 12:40 PM
You used an OTC tren? Sounds like more of a prohormone than a steroid to me. Highly unlikely that someone would do something as stupid as try to sell an illegal drug and give it the same name. So I believe it is safe to assume it was not tren at all.

Ideally anavar would be your best and safest option. 10mg a day for starters divided in two doses of 5mg in the a.m and 5mg in the p.m. Supplement with Milk Thistle, Cranberry Extract, Liv52 for liver support.

There actually is an OTC product called tren and from the feedback that I've recieved, it works. I am of the mind that prohormones MAY convert into the desired mucsle building hormone but more than likely the compound will convert sometimes 5 times over again in the body from "tren" to the original compound to progesterone back to the original compound and so on and so on. This is why alot of people experience worse sides with prohormones than they ever would with AAS because of these constant conversions not to mention the fluctuations in hormone levels. There is no real way to keep them stable. So IMHO prohormones are a waste of money and also shows ignorance on the part of the buyer and lets not even start on the manufacturers. Stick with the tried and tested compounds like REAL trenbolone (short ester i.e. acetate).

Sistersteel
08-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Thank you uber for the feedback. Much appreciated my friend.

Caligirl
08-18-2009, 02:02 PM
There actually is an OTC product called tren and from the feedback that I've recieved, it works. I am of the mind that prohormones MAY convert into the desired mucsle building hormone but more than likely the compound will convert sometimes 5 times over again in the body from "tren" to the original compound to progesterone back to the original compound and so on and so on. This is why alot of people experience worse sides with prohormones than they ever would with AAS because of these constant conversions not to mention the fluctuations in hormone levels. There is no real way to keep them stable. So IMHO prohormones are a waste of money and also shows ignorance on the part of the buyer and lets not even start on the manufacturers. Stick with the tried and tested compounds like REAL trenbolone (short ester i.e. acetate).

This is exactly what the problem was. Very good post on the subject I might add. the product definitely worked (i know we are talking about the same product, it is called Tren and it was by American Cellular Labs) but it screwed me up on ten different levels. It was definitely my ignorace on thinking an OTC product would be safe to take. Trust me when I say, I am researching everything going forward.

Bacon Boy
08-19-2009, 10:40 AM
There actually is an OTC product called tren and from the feedback that I've recieved, it works. I am of the mind that prohormones MAY convert into the desired mucsle building hormone but more than likely the compound will convert sometimes 5 times over again in the body from "tren" to the original compound to progesterone back to the original compound and so on and so on. This is why alot of people experience worse sides with prohormones than they ever would with AAS because of these constant conversions not to mention the fluctuations in hormone levels. There is no real way to keep them stable. So IMHO prohormones are a waste of money and also shows ignorance on the part of the buyer and lets not even start on the manufacturers. Stick with the tried and tested compounds like REAL trenbolone (short ester i.e. acetate).


This is where a lot of heat starts at me and patrick arnold ( greatest legal STEROID creator) arguing the fact certain pro-hormones (actually designer steroids aka steroids that are extremely hard to detect, moreover steroids that were created in the early days that drug companies may passed over for safer options) are stronger than the pharamacologic conter part aka superdrol versus anadrol ( superdrol is anadrol with a di-methyl bond instead of a regular methyl on the 17th carbon) yes others products are not nearly as good, the main true arguement against Pro hormomones is they are not created in FDA approved facility, so quality can be shotty, but if your gear is coming from some off the wall UG lab then the same arguement can be aserted, obviously injection is better method than oral, but in comparison oral to oral based products its important to recognize the merit some products offer, at sometimes a cheaper price than its illegal conter part (EQ injection versus the prohomone bold not much difference in formula, the injectable has a much longer halflife but the effects of the PH have been greatly noted)

That's my piece of the pie ladies!

Caligirl
08-19-2009, 07:11 PM
Have any of you had bloodwork done mid-cycle? as a precautionary measure, the doc would like to have me come in for bloodwork halfway through my prep, and i'm wondering how running anavar might affect this. Any experience of this nature?

sassy69
08-19-2009, 07:25 PM
Have any of you had bloodwork done mid-cycle? as a precautionary measure, the doc would like to have me come in for bloodwork halfway through my prep, and i'm wondering how running anavar might affect this. Any experience of this nature?

You'll probably see free T levels off the charts and high cholesterol.

Caligirl
08-19-2009, 07:41 PM
You'll probably see free T levels off the charts and high cholesterol.

Free T?

I'm assuming these things go back to normal post cycle...

Caligirl
08-19-2009, 07:44 PM
free test, duh! sorry, all this is so new to me

ubermensch
09-17-2009, 04:02 PM
This is where a lot of heat starts at me and patrick arnold ( greatest legal STEROID creator) arguing the fact certain pro-hormones (actually designer steroids aka steroids that are extremely hard to detect, moreover steroids that were created in the early days that drug companies may passed over for safer options) are stronger than the pharamacologic conter part aka superdrol versus anadrol ( superdrol is anadrol with a di-methyl bond instead of a regular methyl on the 17th carbon) yes others products are not nearly as good, the main true arguement against Pro hormomones is they are not created in FDA approved facility, so quality can be shotty, but if your gear is coming from some off the wall UG lab then the same arguement can be aserted, obviously injection is better method than oral, but in comparison oral to oral based products its important to recognize the merit some products offer, at sometimes a cheaper price than its illegal conter part (EQ injection versus the prohomone bold not much difference in formula, the injectable has a much longer halflife but the effects of the PH have been greatly noted)

That's my piece of the pie ladies!


Well you seem educated to a point, and that point was your last comment about tren being a 19-nor compound and being "closer related to deca than tren". Let me enlighten you my friend. Deca IS a 19-nor compound as is tren.

ubermensch
09-17-2009, 04:09 PM
Meant to say deca is a 19-nor compound AS IS trenbolone. At least the trenbolone I am familiar with.

heavyiron
09-18-2009, 10:56 AM
Have any of you had bloodwork done mid-cycle? as a precautionary measure, the doc would like to have me come in for bloodwork halfway through my prep, and i'm wondering how running anavar might affect this. Any experience of this nature?


You'll probably see free T levels off the charts and high cholesterol.
yup, and low HDL

sassy69
09-19-2009, 03:07 AM
yup, and low HDL

Probably better to say "bad" cholesterol.

heavyiron
09-19-2009, 10:38 AM
Probably better to say "bad" cholesterol.
For me my LDL is pretty much diet related but do you think aas raise LDL in some people or is that from poor diet habits in your opinion? There is clinical human trials that show aas lower HDL but I can't remember seeing any that say they raise LDL.