Are we CHEATING OURESLVES by WAITING on the cheat?

[DAVIDHARDY]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. The purpose of the cheat/refeed, whatever you choose to call it is to jump-start our thyroid and kick the metabolism back into high gear. So, with that said, should we be waiting on a particular day to cheat/refeed if progress is moving along at a fast pace? Also, should we wait longer if our progress is not going as it should? The point I am getting at is should we follow a chronological schedule or a weight loss goal to plan our cheat/refeed meal. If my goal is to lose 2 pounds in a week, then should I go ahead and have the meal once that goal is met and kick the metabolism back up to keep burning fat at that rate, or should I have to wait two or three more days? I'm leaning toward going ahead and having the meal after the goal is met rather than waiting for a particular day to roll around. I just don't think that the metabolism can possibly keep up at the rate that it has been going and give you OPTIMAL RESULTS if you keep letting it die down by waiting for that set day to roll around. Now, with that said, I believe that if it takes you 9 days to lose that 2 pounds or whatever the goal might be, then you should NOT cheat/refeed on that 7th day. This way it is also a reward to you. One might argue that the metabolism is slow and that is why the weight hasn't came off in that 7 day period, but my counter argument is what if you were just being lazy? Did you do all of your cardio sessions and weight training to their FULL potential or did you just half ass them or even skip a session or two? If you did what you had planned to do, then maybe it wasn't enough and you need to do an extra 10-15 min of cardio a day to not let this happen again, but whatever the case, don't have that meal until the goal is attained.

Also, I think that if this strategy is put into practice, then you CANNOT be gorging and should limit the meal to a reasonable amount of carbs, like 250 or so tops. Since you would be cheating/refeeding more often, I think that would be a smart way to go, but only trial and error would be able to tell. If you can get away with one of those meals posted in the thread about Keto cheats, then have fun, but I think a big nasty meal like that would begin to hinder gains and you'd eventually be back to a 7 day schedule.

Just my thoughts that I figured I'd put out there for everyone to discuss.

For example, I'll take my current situation. I am doing a ton of cardio and have cut my calories back significantly because I feel that I am a tad behind in my prep. The fat last week and this week has just flown off of me due to all of this. Today is Wednesday and since Saturday, I have lost 3 lbs already this week! That is morning weight after I piss, so it's as accurate as I can get at home. Now, I guarantee you that I will not lose 6 lbs this week even though at this rate I should. My metabolism will slow down as the week goes on and I patiently await my next cheat/refeed meal. I might give this a shot over the next couple of weeks, but I really don't have much, if any room for error with only 6 1/2 weeks before the show.

Please discuss and let me know if I'm just trying to cheat the system lol. But seriously though, I think that I make a valid argument for the sake of metabolism.

[anabolic fyre]

i thought the cheat meal was not only for speeding the metabolism or shocking i guess you can say, but to convert t3 to t4? or vice versa, i forget. lol... somone help out here.

[DAVIDHARDY]

i thought the cheat meal was not only for speeding the metabolism or shocking i guess you can say, but to convert t3 to t4? or vice versa, i forget. lol... somone help out here.


That's ehat I meant by jump-start the thyroid; sorry for being unclear.

[jack08son]

this is the same situation oscar ardon speaks about in some of the videos him and kai have out...giving the cheat meal as the body needs it not on a certain day.

[Silidons]

well the only way that you can tell if that 2lbs you lost is fat and not actually water or food still in your stomach etc, is if you get a bodpod fat estimate thing everytime...i think it's more practical to have a refeed once ever x days, because to do what you want to do (which would probably work better) you would need to have different testing equipment, like test your t3 etc...

[fitmomma3]

I guess it really depends on your beliefs with keto because ultimately many believe it takes you several days to get back into ketosis, if you cheated to often this could technically keep you out of ketosis couldn't it? Also I truly believe you should only weigh yourself once a week because weight can fluctuate with water, for some wight loss patterns can even be a bit sporadic sometime you have to average over a few week period. I've known many who will drop three, drop one, drop two. Sometime I will hold for like 2 weeks then boom drop 4... so I can't base my diet decisions based on a few days. If you are losing more than two pounds per week average I would adjust the diet and cardio first not necessarily incorporate more cheats. But if you believe on cycling and refeeds than thats a whole different story this theory could potentially work for you?

[DAVIDHARDY]

well the only way that you can tell if that 2lbs you lost is fat and not actually water or food still in your stomach etc, is if you get a bodpod fat estimate thing everytime...i think it's more practical to have a refeed once ever x days, because to do what you want to do (which would probably work better) you would need to have different testing equipment, like test your t3 etc...


I can see the reasoning behind this, but if I am weighing myseld every morning at the same time after I do my business and before anything goes in, then that's pretty accurate as well right? I get the bod pod done every couple pf weeks just to monitor my progress and make sure that I haven't been losing muscle. So far, so good. I haven't lost any muscle to date, but I didn't know that you could test ft T3 levels outside of a doctor's office. That would be a very accurate way of timing the cheat meal rather than just a time frame/weight loss goal.

[AVBG]

Good post hardc0rehardy5.

[DAVIDHARDY]

I guess it really depends on your beliefs with keto because ultimately many believe it takes you several days to get back into ketosis, if you cheated to often this could technically keep you out of ketosis couldn't it? Also I truly believe you should only weigh yourself once a week because weight can fluctuate with water, for some wight loss patterns can even be a bit sporadic sometime you have to average over a few week period. I've known many who will drop three, drop one, drop two. Sometime I will hold for like 2 weeks then boom drop 4... so I can't base my diet decisions based on a few days. If you are losing more than two pounds per week average I would adjust the diet and cardio first not necessarily incorporate more cheats. But if you believe on cycling and refeeds than thats a whole different story this theory could potentially work for you?


Personally, I believe that it should take just as long, maybe a little less but that depends on the amount of carbs ingested, to get ot of ketosis as it took to get back into ketosis. That makes sense to ME, but might not be totally correct. I mean think about it this way, it took me about 5 days to get into ketosis while my body swapped over from carbs to ketones. During that time, I was eating less than 30 carbs a day, and before, I was eating in the neighborhood of 400-500 a day(NEVER AGAIN BY THE WAY). I don't think that one meal of 300 or so carbs is going to kick me back out of ketosis, just like one meal of 5 carbs didn't put me into ketosis. If I am having controlled cheats whenever planned, the key being CONTROLLED, then I don't think that I will disrupt that process. Also, if it is taking you out of ketosis and taking you days to get back into ketosis, then it's not a keto diet plain and simple because you aren't in ketosis. That's splitting hairs right there, I know, but if you think about it it makes sense lol. I also believe that the most important thing about ANY fat loss diet is taking in less than you use up, and all fat loss diets will work as long as this is accomplished. Someone can gain weight on a keto diet just like they can lose weight on it. Same with carb cycling, but I'm getting off topic.

I agree that weight can fluctuate with water, and you know if you've not drank enough water the previous day and eaten more sodium than normal that you are gonna hold onto it, but a day back on track will take care of that. Some days when I only get about half of the water taht I normally get, I tend to hold it due to a high sodium intake, but if I drink normally(about 1.5 gallons for me) the next day, then it goes away. For me, that's the case, but everyone's different, so some people might take more time. The point that I'm making here is that IF you are spot on and doing everything the same EVERY day, then theoretically it shouldn't matter. We also know that realistically that isn't the case 100% of the time, but it holds true most of the time.

I'm just trying to get everyone opinion on my THEORY; by no means am I saying that this is scientific and set into stone, but I do think that it has legs. I love a good discussion and am eager to hear what other's think about my thoughts on the subject.

[DAVIDHARDY]

Good post hardc0rehardy5.


Thanks man, I always think about things like this and I hate doing something that doesn't make any sense to me, just because "this amazing guy said do it that way". LOL, I question most everything and love to hear people elaborate on my thoughts; sometime I make no sense at all, some times I have good points, but overall, I'm pretty much a genius...kidding lol

[Get.Serious]

Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale recommends this in his radical diet book. He talks about setting "mini step" goals for weight loss. Say you weigh 220lbs, your first mini step could be 215. Once you hit that goal weight you have a higher calorie / higher carb day. Although, his radical diet recommends not going over 2,000 calories on that day.

[lomox]

Doesn't Myth do like 2-3 refeeds a week b/c he has such grueling workouts? Also, reading Rob Faigin's Natural Hormonal Enhancement book, he recommends 2 carb loads a week as the last meal of the day every 3rd and 4th day (so like Sunday & Wednesday nights). I think it greatly depends on how much physical activity you are engaged in. NHE also doesn't lend a ton of weight to staying in ketosis, just controlling insulin & cortisol, which in some people pushes them into keto. The emphasis is on burning fat. I know it takes me at least until Wednesday to drop all the water from my Sunday cheat, so I am not too keen on carbing up again so quickly. So essentially I think you are right in saying that the timing is different for everyone.

[DAVIDHARDY]

Doesn't Myth do like 2-3 refeeds a week b/c he has such grueling workouts? Also, reading Rob Faigin's Natural Hormonal Enhancement book, he recommends 2 carb loads a week as the last meal of the day every 3rd and 4th day (so like Sunday & Wednesday nights). I think it greatly depends on how much physical activity you are engaged in. NHE also doesn't lend a ton of weight to staying in ketosis, just controlling insulin & cortisol, which in some people pushes them into keto. The emphasis is on burning fat. I know it takes me at least until Wednesday to drop all the water from my Sunday cheat, so I am not too keen on carbing up again so quickly. So essentially I think you are right in saying that the timing is different for everyone.


Does Myth post here anymore? I haven't seen his name on the boards in a while. I do remember reading that when he gets closer to a show he increases his refeeds. I also think that he he said that he does all out days instead of one big meal. I can see the logic behind that as long as you do like he was recommending and plan it out and not just have big ass cheats all day. I might need to read some of these books, they sound very informative.

[Darnelle B]

Simple as this if it works for you do it. If it don't work stick to your one day meal or refeeds.

I do refeeds every Sunday. But I referd in fats I take in like 500g of fat and maybe 100g of carbs. I lose 3 pounds a week. See that works for me. The key is to figgure what works for you do abd results we show.

[lomox]

Simple as this if it works for you do it. If it don't work stick to your one day meal or refeeds.

I do refeeds every Sunday. But I referd in fats I take in like 500g of fat and maybe 100g of carbs. I lose 3 pounds a week. See that works for me. The key is to figgure what works for you do abd results we show.


Yeah man, for some reason when I do the low-fat refeeds I dont do as well as when I do full on cheats. Ligically doesn't make sense to me, but whatever, it works. One day I may find out why, but does it really matter?

500g of fat! Damn thats alotta Cheese! Or like 30 mac nutz! lol

[Silidons]

i really do think it's a great idea, but like i said you'd need to have bloodtests, bodyfat tests, etc to perfect it. but it is a good idea.

[Darnelle B]

Yeah man, for some reason when I do the low-fat refeeds I dont do as well as when I do full on cheats. Ligically doesn't make sense to me, but whatever, it works. One day I may find out why, but does it really matter?

500g of fat! Damn thats alotta Cheese! Or like 30 mac nutz! lol

lol yea. No chesse tho. Just jars of mac nut butter. Steaks,angues burgers,nuts,pork,eggs,bacon,sausges. Just everything fatty.

[DAVIDHARDY]

Simple as this if it works for you do it. If it don't work stick to your one day meal or refeeds.

I do refeeds every Sunday. But I referd in fats I take in like 500g of fat and maybe 100g of carbs. I lose 3 pounds a week. See that works for me. The key is to figgure what works for you do abd results we show.


The one cheat meal a week is working for me, but I was wondering if this strategy would work better. I'm not about to fuck around right now and see, because I'm about 6.5 weeks away and playing catch-up at the moment. I am def gonna try it for a while next time I prep for a show, though.

[BIGSNOR]

if in catch up mode, most guys i've prepped with have pulled cheats out completely. One was when keto, one was when on carbs.

[Darnelle B]

The one cheat meal a week is working for me, but I was wondering if this strategy would work better. I'm not about to fuck around right now and see, because I'm about 6.5 weeks away and playing catch-up at the moment. I am def gonna try it for a while next time I prep for a show, though.

If it is working stick with it bro forreal. I really think one cheat meal a week is fine or refeed. I don't see having 2 cheats meals aweek will work I really think it will set u back or not let you see full results. I think people will take this thread as an excuse to eat more cheat meals or refeeds. If you cheat everytime u lose 2 pounds. Then u may set your self back because u don't know what that 2 pounds is from. I think once a week will show better results.

But once again if it works for you then godbless. Lol

but it's rare that is does work like that.

I weigh in every Sunday morning I lose 2-3 pounds a week. Then after my weigh in my high fat refeed starts. But I know I lost a solid 2-3 pounds.

But if people decide to cheat every time the scale moves you will never be able to tell what your losing.

[DAVIDHARDY]

If it is working stick with it bro forreal. I really think one cheat meal a week is fine or refeed. I don't see having 2 cheats meals aweek will work I really think it will set u back or not let you see full results. I think people will take this thread as an excuse to eat more cheat meals or refeeds. If you cheat everytime u lose 2 pounds. Then u may set your self back because u don't know what that 2 pounds is from. I think once a week will show better results.

But once again if it works for you then godbless. Lol

but it's rare that is does work like that.

I weigh in every Sunday morning I lose 2-3 pounds a week. Then after my weigh in my high fat refeed starts. But I know I lost a solid 2-3 pounds.

But if people decide to cheat every time the scale moves you will never be able to tell what your losing.

Yeah, I can see where someone would perceive that I was trying to cheat moer, but that is not the case at all. I just had a thought and figured I'd put it out there. I lost 4 lbs last week with the added cardio and my strength stayed the same, so I don't believe that I lost muscle. I was just in the "This is good, but could it be even BETTER" mindset so I figured I'd see what everybody thought. I'm def not pulling my cheats out while I'm still making good progress. I won't be having a cheat the Saturday before the show though, so that'll be tough, but then again I'll start eating carbs the Thursday of the show week to fill out so it won't be so bad.

[DAVIDHARDY]

If it is working stick with it bro forreal. I really think one cheat meal a week is fine or refeed. I don't see having 2 cheats meals aweek will work I really think it will set u back or not let you see full results. I think people will take this thread as an excuse to eat more cheat meals or refeeds. If you cheat everytime u lose 2 pounds. Then u may set your self back because u don't know what that 2 pounds is from. I think once a week will show better results.

But once again if it works for you then godbless. Lol

but it's rare that is does work like that.

I weigh in every Sunday morning I lose 2-3 pounds a week. Then after my weigh in my high fat refeed starts. But I know I lost a solid 2-3 pounds.

But if people decide to cheat every time the scale moves you will never be able to tell what your losing.

Holy shit, I just saw that you once weighed 400 fucking pounds. Congrats on the amazing transformation brother! When is your show?

[DAVIDHARDY]

if in catch up mode, most guys i've prepped with have pulled cheats out completely. One was when keto, one was when on carbs.


Since I'm making more progress now than I have been all along, I'm not gonna pull my cheats until I stall out. I am limiting my cheats from here on out. I am using less calorie dense ingredients to make a meal that I still want and can enjoy. For instance, this Saturday, I plan on making shepherds pie and I'm gonna use 97 lean beef and just put a thin layer of potatoes on top instead of regular meat and a shitton of potatoes. I'm also making waffles and I'm gonna use sugar free syrup instead of regular syrup for my dessert. I am a firm believer that the cheat is an integral part of the diet and not really a "cheat", but a helpful tool when used correctly. I have been known to just say fuck it and go overboard, but I've got them under control now so they are doing WAY more good than bad IMO.

[Darnelle B]

Holy shit, I just saw that you once weighed 400 fucking pounds. Congrats on the amazing transformation brother! When is your show?



Thanks man my show I'd November 14 if I make it. Lol

[DAVIDHARDY]

Thanks man my show I'd November 14 if I make it. Lol


Kentucky Muscle?

[Darnelle B]

Kentucky Muscle?


Eastern USA

[DAVIDHARDY]

Eastern USA


Good luck bro; I'm on my way to Florida for the NGA Florida Natural Championships.

[Darnelle B]

Good luck bro; I'm on my way to Florida for the NGA Florida Natural Championships.

good luck bro. You got any pics up.

[DAVIDHARDY]

good luck bro. You got any pics up.


Yeah, I have a journal in the contest prep section. I'm gonna throw up some new pics when I get home.

[Darnelle B]

Yeah, I have a journal in the contest prep section. I'm gonna throw up some new pics when I get home.

I have a theard also.

I'm 8 weeks out going to post pics.October 3.

Kind of scared I won't make it. But I'm still pushing. But I figgure I have about 20 pounds to drop. I hope that is enough. I feel like I'm behind. I'm losing 2-3 pounds every week so I hope that keeps up.

[anabolic fyre]

any body else listen to their body nd cheat only when you are so dead nd lacking insane energy that you cant even finish a low intensity cardio session?? i tried this approach and it seems to work well for me, but sometimes i can feel really tired more then twice a week nd the cheating can get excessive lol...

[Darnelle B]

any body else listen to their body nd cheat only when you are so dead nd lacking insane energy that you cant even finish a low intensity cardio session?? i tried this approach and it seems to work well for me, but sometimes i can feel really tired more then twice a week nd the cheating can get excessive lol...

See. Lol that's what I mean if I cheated everytime I felt tired and run down I would be fat. Being tired and run down is apart og this sport just stick it out till it's time for your cheat meal bro. Don't use it as an excuse to pig out or have a cheat meal.

[DAVIDHARDY]

any body else listen to their body nd cheat only when you are so dead nd lacking insane energy that you cant even finish a low intensity cardio session?? i tried this approach and it seems to work well for me, but sometimes i can feel really tired more then twice a week nd the cheating can get excessive lol...


Shit, I'd be cheating fucking daily if that was the case. This morning I wanted to fucking cry when I looked down at the time I had left and saw 45 minuets...and that was just one of 3 sessions that I did totaling 150 min today:drool:

[Darnelle B]

Shit, I'd be cheating fucking daily if that was the case. This morning I wanted to fucking cry when I looked down at the time I had left and saw 45 minuets...and that was just one of 3 sessions that I did totaling 150 min today:drool:

Lol. I hear you bro. Same here I'm typing this right now as I do my 3 session of cardio. Total of 3hrs today. Yes I'm tired and drain but will I go cheat no. Lol because this is apart of the sacafice to get on stage and look better then half the world. Cheat meal ate only use to keep fat loss going. Simple

[anabolic fyre]

some people can pull off the 2 or even 3 cheat meals a week, im not talkin bout an all out pig out fest, im talking bout just a normal meal, like 12oz steak and mad mash potatoes with rice or sometin. I can pull of 2 nd keep losing bodyfat, obviously not 4 weeks out lol, but up till 6 weeks out i can still pull it off. It's not really about the self control or nuttin, its more the fact that when i cheat twice i stay fuller and i keep more size, nd even my strength stays up nd i dont lose any size. But hey w/e works for you i guess.

[DAVIDHARDY]

some people can pull off the 2 or even 3 cheat meals a week, im not talkin bout an all out pig out fest, im talking bout just a normal meal, like 12oz steak and mad mash potatoes with rice or sometin. I can pull of 2 nd keep losing bodyfat, obviously not 4 weeks out lol, but up till 6 weeks out i can still pull it off. It's not really about the self control or nuttin, its more the fact that when i cheat twice i stay fuller and i keep more size, nd even my strength stays up nd i dont lose any size. But hey w/e works for you i guess.


Those are the type of meals that I was referring to, smaller refeeds, just more often. My strength still hasn't been affected by the diet and cardio thus far, so that's not a concern for me. I did have to go lighter today with my legs on a few things because my lower back on the right side was a little sore. I'm def gonna play around with a lot of things after this prep and the holidays, because I'm def pigging out then lol.

[CallofDuty4]

hardc0rehardy5, I think i'm stalling out I've been doing the same thing for the last 6 weeks....come next month Oct 7 I will be have lotsa of Beef, can I have a slice of cake??....Damn today was back day friggin tired then did 45 minutes of cardio, I think I'm going to add another 10 minutes to the cardio...

[DAVIDHARDY]

hardc0rehardy5, I think i'm stalling out I've been doing the same thing for the last 6 weeks....come next month Oct 7 I will be have lotsa of Beef, can I have a slice of cake??....Damn today was back day friggin tired then did 45 minutes of cardio, I think I'm going to add another 10 minutes to the cardio...


Aren't you working with frosty? If so, run it by him 1st. My philosophy on the cheat meal is that it's my only damn meal that I can eat whatever the hell it is that I've been craving all week, and I'm gonna do just that. lol, might not be the best approach, but it's been working for me. With that said, I have been getting a semi grip of my cheats being so close to the show. I say have at the cake, but like I said, check with Frosty first if you are working with him. I'd add in 10 min a day if you're stalling out as well.

[CallofDuty4]

:yep:
Aren't you working with frosty? If so, run it by him 1st. My philosophy on the cheat meal is that it's my only damn meal that I can eat whatever the hell it is that I've been craving all week, and I'm gonna do just that. lol, might not be the best approach, but it's been working for me. With that said, I have been getting a semi grip of my cheats being so close to the show. I say have at the cake, but like I said, check with Frosty first if you are working with him. I'd add in 10 min a day if you're stalling out as well.

He's getting like palumbo taking weeks to respond.....

[FoodFreak]

I know that when Mike Liberatore worked with palumbo, he was eating 2 cheat meals per week in order to stay full but MAINLY in order to keep the thyroid up. Metabolic slowdown is the main issue I have with this typical style of keto dieting (once a week "cheat" meal)

[DAVIDHARDY]

I know that when Mike Liberatore worked with palumbo, he was eating 2 cheat meals per week in order to stay full but MAINLY in order to keep the thyroid up. Metabolic slowdown is the main issue I have with this typical style of keto dieting (once a week "cheat" meal)


That was what I was getting at. Is my metabolism staying at an optimum level from just one cheat meal per week? I don't think that is possible without some sort of assistance. i am going to play around with the idea the next time that I prep, but I'm too close right now at 5.5 weeks out to try anything new.