Coming off KETO

[Minnphat]

I am coming off KETO.... I know its time to start incorperating some carbs but I am scarred to gain any weight.... and of course it goes directly to my stomach.... I am wondering what the best way would be to put on 10... 15 lbs tops.... I am curently 6 feet 178 around 8% bf...shoud I up carbs? if so when and what kind? or just up fats/cals??? kinda confused any input from past expereinces would help... I just dont want to get fat... I am natural... and alot of people have told me its not good for test and metobolism if natties diet for too long... any info would help thanks guys....

[ironwarrior22]

I would just add in some complex carbs (brown rice, sweet potatoe, vegatables, oatmeal, etc) in the morning and early in the day prolly somewhere around 200 grams if you feel your putting on fat cut it down a little if you feel like your always hungry increase it to 250-300.

[lex]

Exactly what ironwarrior said.
Also post workout add in some carbs aswell

[nettles9]

well your natty so you should have never done keto. you've most definitely F'd your metabolism up ...you'll rebound pretty bad. keto works, but the metabolic repercussions are too hard to over come. good luck

[BigM123]

well your natty so you should have never done keto. you've most definitely F'd your metabolism up ...you'll rebound pretty bad. keto works, but the metabolic repercussions are too hard to over come. good luck
could you give a more detailed explanation thanks

[AVBG]

Bump for nettles9 .. Please enlighten us with your experience?

[AVBG]

Keto in the diet sense is not for the long term, however once you're where you want to be in terms of body fat. The gradual increase of carbs will get you into a growth stage and if you know your body and are able to guage the response/gain from carbs you need not be a fatty ever again. If your gaining fat just cut back on the carbs and maintain that weight.

[nettles9]

The short version is that without carbs, no matter how much protein or fat you take in, within 12 weeks you will be cutting your metabolism by up to 45%...proven in studies and just normal biochem 101 info. At that point, on a continuum, you will have begun using a lot of muscle for energy - carbs are the most protein/muscle sparing thing we consume - also well studied. Way more anti-catobolic than protein ONCE you have consumed at least 70 grams (roughly) of protein per day. More protein will not spare muscle or increase metabolic potential - only carbs will.

Every cell in the body creates energy using the Kreb's Cycle....it's cellular metabolism. Glucose is the fuel that drives the engine. Ketones don't. Without carbs, you use more fat and more protein (muscle) for energy, so you appear to lose fat faster....you certainly do initially....but your body is slowly starving for glucose and you become up to 10x more insulin sensitive (so you store fat that much faster/easier), and your met rate slows down

[G-Roy]

The short version is that without carbs, no matter how much protein or fat you take in, within 12 weeks you will be cutting your metabolism by up to 45%...proven in studies and just normal biochem 101 info. At that point, on a continuum, you will have begun using a lot of muscle for energy - carbs are the most protein/muscle sparing thing we consume - also well studied. Way more anti-catobolic than protein ONCE you have consumed at least 70 grams (roughly) of protein per day. More protein will not spare muscle or increase metabolic potential - only carbs will.

Every cell in the body creates energy using the Kreb's Cycle....it's cellular metabolism. Glucose is the fuel that drives the engine. Ketones don't. Without carbs, you use more fat and more protein (muscle) for energy, so you appear to lose fat faster....you certainly do initially....but your body is slowly starving for glucose and you become up to 10x more insulin sensitive (so you store fat that much faster/easier), and your met rate slows down

Ive taken basic biochem, I must have been out the day they discussed all that. I dont see how if you are dieting for a show and you are at the point where your carbs are under 75g or so, that those 75g will make any more of a difference on metabolism than no carbs and plenty of fat. Even if carbs are the preferred source, a very small amount isnt going to save tons of muscle when you are training hard.

[nettles9]

Ive taken basic biochem, I must have been out the day they discussed all that. I dont see how if you are dieting for a show and you are at the point where your carbs are under 75g or so, that those 75g will make any more of a difference on metabolism than no carbs and plenty of fat. Even if carbs are the preferred source, a very small amount isnt going to save tons of muscle when you are training hard.

i would like to preface that if you aren't natty, some of what i say doesnt apply. assistance can make the equation totally different. even the most sound diet causes a metabolic decrease, the longer and deeper you go into a cal deficit the more your metabolism will decline...especially if you are going below 100grms of carbs.....0 or 75 can make a WORLD of difference!! no matter how much fat or protein you eat nor how hard you are training....carbs are the only thing that is going to spare muscle tissue. so even 75 can help out buffer that...but it depends on your body type. More protein will not spare muscle or increase metabolic potential - only carbs will. The goal is to eat as much carb as you need for metabolic reasons and muscle reasons, and the least amount to keep burning body fat.

I think that often times people are too linear with their thought processes on keto dieting. I have read a lot of people on the boards who seem to think that X amount of carbs is the threshold for a "keto" diet. Well they are right in that there is a line in the sand. But that X is going to be different for everybody, based on genetics. So whats keto for me may not be keto for you, etc. Just have to find that place where carbs are low enough to shift to body fat but not low enough to slow down the met rate.
Ketogenic diets have always been thought of as 'protein sparing' because ketones spare blood glucose which will reduce gluconeogenesis (conversion of amino acids to glucose) and ketones can be used as fuel, however ketones can only be used by aerobic metabolism. Weightlifting is quite anaerobic and studies have shown performance is very closely correlated to levels of muscle glycogen & glucose availability. Is keto a good way to lose fat very quickly? yes. But if you give yourself ample time... why not have carbs? They are not evil and are quite useful. Also keto diets will make it more difficult to fill out when it comes time to do so, it takes weeks to adapt to a ketogenic diet, so when you come off of keto it will take weeks to adapt to carbohydrates back in the diet


if you are natty you have to take what people say with a grain of salt on the boards, most doesn't apply and has little science.

[esgibson]

i would like to preface that if you aren't natty, some of what i say doesnt apply. assistance can make the equation totally different. even the most sound diet causes a metabolic decrease, the longer and deeper you go into a cal deficit the more your metabolism will decline...especially if you are going below 100grms of carbs.....0 or 75 can make a WORLD of difference!! no matter how much fat or protein you eat nor how hard you are training....carbs are the only thing that is going to spare muscle tissue. so even 75 can help out buffer that...but it depends on your body type. More protein will not spare muscle or increase metabolic potential - only carbs will. The goal is to eat as much carb as you need for metabolic reasons and muscle reasons, and the least amount to keep burning body fat.

I think that often times people are too linear with their thought processes on keto dieting. I have read a lot of people on the boards who seem to think that X amount of carbs is the threshold for a "keto" diet. Well they are right in that there is a line in the sand. But that X is going to be different for everybody, based on genetics. So whats keto for me may not be keto for you, etc. Just have to find that place where carbs are low enough to shift to body fat but not low enough to slow down the met rate.
Ketogenic diets have always been thought of as 'protein sparing' because ketones spare blood glucose which will reduce gluconeogenesis (conversion of amino acids to glucose) and ketones can be used as fuel, however ketones can only be used by aerobic metabolism. Weightlifting is quite anaerobic and studies have shown performance is very closely correlated to levels of muscle glycogen & glucose availability. Is keto a good way to lose fat very quickly? yes. But if you give yourself ample time... why not have carbs? They are not evil and are quite useful. Also keto diets will make it more difficult to fill out when it comes time to do so, it takes weeks to adapt to a ketogenic diet, so when you come off of keto it will take weeks to adapt to carbohydrates back in the diet


if you are natty you have to take what people say with a grain of salt on the boards, most doesn't apply and has little science.

nettles makes some really good points. keto diets wit natties generally burn up a ton of muscle if done for too long. i've never heard that the metabolism is slowed down by 45% after X amount of week with a keto diet and i'm not sure that i'd buy that it's quite that much but i definitly believe that it does slow ur metabolism down. i've never personally enjoyed the keto diet because it just made me feel like shit..but to come back to the original question...when coming off keto u need to gradually increase ur carbs prolly start with about 75g or 80g and then increase every week until u start gaining weight. just like the guys before said mainly at breakfast and post work out. just make sure that u take the calories out of the fat when u add the initial carbs so u don't throw ur calories really high really fast...don't worry because ur GOING to gain a lil initial weight because carbs will make u hold water but don't freak out...it'll go away and even itself out..like he said..take everything people say to u with a grain of salt. keep training hard and eat like u mean it

[G-Roy]

NETTLES, although we may disagree, you have some well explained points. I'm natty and prefer keto just becasue my body tends to respond better to the pro/fat approach better than lower fat and minimal carbs. I tend to feel better, stronger etc, but not everyone does. I tend to favor Dr DiPasquales anabolic diet where you get 1-2 refeed days with ample carbs following 5 days of low carb, shigh fat, mod protein. I've never heard the 45% number but it seems that most people would use keto for about 12 weeks out from a contest, 16 at most, so they could probably work around that drop. I dont comptete so I have no opinion on filling out.

[AVBG]

Great posts groy and nettles9, how bout referencing these studies.. Let's see the bodies!

[tiramisu]

Except for the part where keto diets work fine for natties and a slow increase in carbs avoids significant rebound I love the theorizing. It's a shame that theory and practice don't match in this case. Every one has such great logic and reasoning but when they don't actually match real life results one has to wonder a bit.

[Minnphat]

So as a natural is long term keto a bad thing?... after I wrote this i never want back to carbs... instead I incorperated an all day half dirty half clean refeed... I have only gained about 4 lbs...... I feel bigger... before keto I used to weight about 210, I am 6'1...I was about 15% bf..Now I am 180 under 10%... but I just feel too skinny some times... and it does not help people telling saying "man you lost size".... I always think about incorperating carbs again just confused because I like how lean I am... funny I have been doing this for 7 years still confused about what works...

[nettles9]

So as a natural is long term keto a bad thing?... after I wrote this i never want back to carbs... instead I incorperated an all day half dirty half clean refeed... I have only gained about 4 lbs...... I feel bigger... before keto I used to weight about 210, I am 6'1...I was about 15% bf..Now I am 180 under 10%... but I just feel too skinny some times... and it does not help people telling saying "man you lost size".... I always think about incorperating carbs again just confused because I like how lean I am... funny I have been doing this for 7 years still confused about what works...

if your natty and doing keto long term, you are asking for a metabolic meltdown not too mention muscle loss. carbs are your main defense against catabolic nature of a diet, you can eat all the fat and protein you'd like, but it wont matter. you need carbs bottomline!
i know layne has written about this, and so has dr joe klemczewski. so the science is out there.

[Fat Abbott]

if your natty and doing keto long term, you are asking for a metabolic meltdown not too mention muscle loss. carbs are your main defense against catabolic nature of a diet, you can eat all the fat and protein you'd like, but it wont matter. you need carbs bottomline!

Bullshit!
I'm not using anything except ECA before workouts, just finishing my eight week of keto, doing CKD version of it, went down 8 kg = 17,5 pounds, feeling great, looking great and even adding poundages on some of the lifts. I'll even try to stay off carbs, and up fat and protein intake when I switch to adding lean body mass.

[babybull]

if your natty and doing keto long term, you are asking for a metabolic meltdown not too mention muscle loss. carbs are your main defense against catabolic nature of a diet, you can eat all the fat and protein you'd like, but it wont matter. you need carbs bottomline!
i know layne has written about this, and so has dr joe klemczewski. so the science is out there.


I have one question/statement.

You can live forever with never eating another carb in your life. So if that is that case, how can you say that you will lose tons of muscle on a keto type diet?

I wouldnt stay pure keto, with no refeeds but we are on a bodybuilding forum here not the Atkins forum. All of "us" do some sort of cheat/refeed including carbs to stroke the metabolism and fill up a bit.

In my opinion, you can stay on "this" type of diet forever if you so chose to. I never lose strength or size during keto..I actually losemore muscle eating carbs and lower fat. Fats are essential to the body...I think stayiong on a moderate or high carb LOW fat diet is by far worse for your body then a ketop type diet.

But, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.;)

[nettles9]

I have one question/statement.

You can live forever with never eating another carb in your life. So if that is that case, how can you say that you will lose tons of muscle on a keto type diet?

I wouldnt stay pure keto, with no refeeds but we are on a bodybuilding forum here not the Atkins forum. All of "us" do some sort of cheat/refeed including carbs to stroke the metabolism and fill up a bit.

In my opinion, you can stay on "this" type of diet forever if you so chose to. I never lose strength or size during keto..I actually losemore muscle eating carbs and lower fat. Fats are essential to the body...I think stayiong on a moderate or high carb LOW fat diet is by far worse for your body then a ketop type diet.

But, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.;)


once you come off that keto diet take a pic of yourself. you'll look like a marshmallow. not too mention you won't be able to live on keto. not a chance...you'll want carbs eventually, maybe not now but in time.

[Fat Abbott]

Carbs are usefull only to your muscles, so if you load them with the exact ammount of glycogen they can absorb, you don't need carbs for anything else. Protein and fats (some of them) are essential for functioning of body.


I actually losemore muscle eating carbs and lower fat. Fats are essential to the body
Exactly!


you'll want carbs eventually, maybe not now but in time
That's the best part - don't have cravings for carbs anymore, sometimes I barely eat all my carbs when I carbload. When carb cycling, I developed almost an addiction to sweets. Now, I'm a free man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[babybull]

once you come off that keto diet take a pic of yourself. you'll look like a marshmallow. not too mention you won't be able to live on keto. not a chance...you'll want carbs eventually, maybe not now but in time.


You are obviously narrow minded.

Ive done this several times, and all you have to do is do it right. You can either slowly add carbs in and monitor your weight to make sure you dont get too fat....or start something like carb cycling to get your body used to the carbs.

Last year I dieted on keto....lost about 50lbs....then went straight to carb cycling, with no taper......and put on 25lbs of WEIGHT in 4 weeks with NO size added to my waist. It was awesome!

If you want to go back to eating "junk" than ye, your4 going to get fat as hell. You still have to keep calories and carbs under control. You can bsiacally go from a keto deit of 2500 calories straight to say a "zone type" diet of 2500 calories and only gain glycogen/water weight from filling out.

If you go from keto to pizza and beer, yes you will get fat.

[ste247]

iam going to bump this, i have a question if i went from a keto diet of say 3000 cals a day but wanted to keep cutting up ( losing fat) and i switched over to a diet with lower fat and more carbs with the same amount of cals as the keto will i keep burning fat or will i rebound like hell cheers all

[nettles9]

RX Muscle Forums - View Profile: babybull@@AMEPARAM@@View Profile: babybull</title>@@AMEPARAM@@babybull you obviously have never taken bio chem 101. if your juicing this doesnt apply.
RX Muscle Forums - View Profile: ste247@@AMEPARAM@@View Profile: ste247</title>@@AMEPARAM@@ste247 you'll rebound bad. that is why keto is stupid.

[ste247]

RX Muscle Forums - View Profile: babybull (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/member.php?u=10031) you obviously have never taken bio chem 101. if your juicing this doesnt apply.
RX Muscle Forums - View Profile: ste247 (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/member.php?u=12803) you'll rebound bad. that is why keto is stupid.
ye thats what iam thinking, last year when i finnished daves diet i rebounded really bad, but i was thinking this year of keeping my cals the same, 500 under maintinence and seeing if i keep cutting up, as its just a case of cals in vs cals out and as long as the cals are the same on both diets then id assume you would just keep burning fat, but i fiqure the chances of rebound are pretty high when coming off daves diet can anyone else shed and light on this.

[TSquared]

iam going to bump this, i have a question if i went from a keto diet of say 3000 cals a day but wanted to keep cutting up ( losing fat) and i switched over to a diet with lower fat and more carbs with the same amount of cals as the keto will i keep burning fat or will i rebound like hell cheers all

In my experience with Keto, no matter what carbs(complex, simple) you go back to, you will rebound. The rebound would be less severe if you just did oatmeal and brown rice (complex).

IMO the Keto approach is a waste of time and only works for very short periods of time and literally eats muscle off the body.

This may work for the enhanced bodybuilders that Dave Palumbo works with but the majority of people I know have all had poor results in the long run.

[nettles9]

In my experience with Keto, no matter what carbs(complex, simple) you go back to, you will rebound. The rebound would be less severe if you just did oatmeal and brown rice (complex).

IMO the Keto approach is a waste of time and only works for very short periods of time and literally eats muscle off the body.

This may work for the enhanced bodybuilders that Dave Palumbo works with but the majority of people I know have all had poor results in the long run.

tsquared is right on. keto is a waste for natty's

[Youngguns]

My little piece of info... when I did keto my strength and muscle just plummeted. I wasted an entire year in the gym because of this diet that I followed to a "T" (Daves diet).

If you're natural, unless you're really fat and a beginner, don't even try it. Carbs carbs carbs. I'm now eating 150-200grams of carbs while cutting and it's working phenominally. (Interval cardio, 10 second sprint 50 second rest 3-5 times, less on workout days more on rest days).

[tiramisu]

I'm guessing the nettles has never actually applied the diet or reintroduced carbs after a ketogenic diet. Many a natural bodybuilder has successfully applied Dave's template and done well.

The rhetoric/bullshit gets tiresome.

[Lann1011]

ye thats what iam thinking, last year when i finnished daves diet i rebounded really bad, but i was thinking this year of keeping my cals the same, 500 under maintinence and seeing if i keep cutting up, as its just a case of cals in vs cals out and as long as the cals are the same on both diets then id assume you would just keep burning fat, but i fiqure the chances of rebound are pretty high when coming off daves diet can anyone else shed and light on this.


I did the Keto for 16 weeks, had great gains AND good fat loss. Been off since Dec 7th and I am 5-7 lbs within my contest weight.

No rebounds here.. and I am natural!

I will be using Keto again when I get closer to contest time.

[Sixpax]

I think as Nettles said, the keto diet makes you more insulin sensitive...that is a good thing for muscle gains. As your muscle cell recptors are more sensitive to nutrients. So when you come off a keto diet and feed the body the RIGHT amount of carbs, protein and fats the muscle cells will be the preferred storage place for them, over fat. So you can add good quality weight. Even Dorian used to say that his best gains used to come after a contest.
So I guess it all depends on how you refeed your body. Like Nettles said" Whats keto for someone maynot be keto for the other", similarly whats a good refeed for one may be a marshmellow formula for the other. you have to be experienced enough to understand your own body and customize the Keto diet and also the Refeed after you are done.
I have done the keto diet naturally and had great results and am able to improve on them even after coming off keto.

[LANCE SPENCER]

mmm we need evidence than keto slows metabolism down 45%,any studies out there??im starting a prep and i would hate to lose time on keto when i know low carbs works ...
ps.by the way on which diet were u happier keto or anything to do with carbs??

[nettles9]

I think as Nettles said, the keto diet makes you more insulin sensitive...that is a good thing for muscle gains. As your muscle cell recptors are more sensitive to nutrients. So when you come off a keto diet and feed the body the RIGHT amount of carbs, protein and fats the muscle cells will be the preferred storage place for them, over fat. So you can add good quality weight. Even Dorian used to say that his best gains used to come after a contest.
So I guess it all depends on how you refeed your body. Like Nettles said" Whats keto for someone maynot be keto for the other", similarly whats a good refeed for one may be a marshmellow formula for the other. you have to be experienced enough to understand your own body and customize the Keto diet and also the Refeed after you are done.
I have done the keto diet naturally and had great results and am able to improve on them even after coming off keto.

cuz i'm not dumb enough to do keto. every try peaking for a show on keto...good luck coming in full and filling up on carbs. you'll be so insulin sensitive by that pt that spillover is going to happen. i'm talking to people that actually compete , not some dude whos 15% BF looking to drop to 9-10%...i'm talking striated glutes and hams, but full. not gonna happen bro.

[jjjohns_10]

cuz i'm not dumb enough to do keto. every try peaking for a show on keto...good luck coming in full and filling up on carbs. you'll be so insulin sensitive by that pt that spillover is going to happen. i'm talking to people that actually compete , not some dude whos 15% BF looking to drop to 9-10%...i'm talking striated glutes and hams, but full. not gonna happen bro.

WHERE'S THE PROOF!!!!! I'm natural, I compete, and have dieted both with and without carbs. Comparing my progress numbers via constant hydrostatic weighing on both types of dieting, i know FOR SURE in REAL numbers that I not only kept MORE muscle on keto, but lost MORE FAT!!!!!! And I looked Waaaay better on stage, had an easier time in the dieting process, deeper cuts, striated glutes/hams, and yes; I was FULL on stage! Its not impossible, your generalizing!!!!!

Everyone is different my friend, you need to learn that.

[lilarnold]

http://forums.rxmuscle.com/newgallery/DSC_0263_LKABFXLHKP.jpg

[lilarnold]

cuz i'm not dumb enough to do keto. every try peaking for a show on keto...good luck coming in full and filling up on carbs. you'll be so insulin sensitive by that pt that spillover is going to happen. i'm talking to people that actually compete , not some dude whos 15% BF looking to drop to 9-10%...i'm talking striated glutes and hams, but full. not gonna happen bro.


nathan de tracy

guy cisternino

evan centipani

jorge de larosa


have you ever beaten any of these guys?...didnt think so. all of them shredded, dry, hard, AND full on contest day.


it isnt the diet my friend....its you

[jjjohns_10]

nathan de tracy

guy cisternino

evan centipani

jorge de larosa


have you ever beaten any of these guys?...didnt think so. all of them shredded, dry, hard, AND full on contest day.


it isnt the diet my friend....its you

Amen brother.

[Steve56]

Tim Martin used the diet when preparing for the Team Universe two yrs ago...it turned out fine for him!

[Fragger2323]

I can only relate my experience to this. I have dieted down twice in my life, and one time I used a high carb diet, and one time I used the Palumbo diet.

When I used high carb and lower calories, I got lighter and ended up with lower body fat. I think I was calipered at 8%. I lost 10 pounds of muscle in the process, even though lifts went up.

Then I used the Palumbo diet, and literally defied everything I knew about weightloss. I had more energy, was never hungry, and the whole thing was a breeze. I ended plateauing at around 40 pounds heavier than my low calorie days, but lifts were up across the board, I looked better, measurements were up, and I was almost in the same pants that I wore when I was at my lightest. Personal problems led me to have to put BBing on the back burner, and I ended up making the transition to carbs much faster and harder than your supposed to.

Logically, you add little by little and see what happens. Like, to be safe, if your consuming 50 grams of carbs a day, add in 10-20 per day for a few weeks and see what happens. Slowly bumping them up like others have mentioned is really the only way to do it.

[Justin-27]

cuz i'm not dumb enough to do keto.

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but it came up in a search and I couldn't leave this nettles kid alone.

First off, I left what's most important of your quote above. Youve NEVER tried it. So one, you should not speak on what you do now know. Two, if you HAD tried it, you'd know that taking a body that's been fueling off carbs for many, many years and switching to fats will take some adjustment.

I am 30, natural and it took a good week before I stopped feeling flat, light headed, etc. But the whole "you need carbs to look full" is bogus. I do Dave's diet essentially with one cheat meal Sunday night and even Friday I'm still vascular and full.

To make blanket statements like "you'll ruin your metabolism," or "it will shut it down 45% because I learnt that in Bio 101" are both asinine. 45%?! PROVE IT.

Not to mention what another said above, WE DONT EVEN CRAVE CARBS ANYMORE! That should tell you how lame carbs are.....they are the food for the weak.....all brain driven. Provide little nutritional value compared to protein and fat. If I didnt need to re-feed/cheat once a week, I'd never eat the damn things. (P.s.-the re-feed keeps leptin and thyroid high, thus negating your "slows matab" comment.....but then again, Bio 101 taught you that already, right?)

The fact of the matter is take a carb eater, put them on a crash 12 week bb'ing cut with Keto and then they forcefeed themselves post show, ANY previous diet will cause a massive rebound. That's why you need a little self-control and do it the right way. "Right" being a Keto follower just adds in about 100 grams of carbs around the workout. That's it. The rest of the meals should stay Keto. Between doing that and a once a week re-feed/cheat a Keto follower can gain lean mass whilst staying out of the fatty zone you carb addicts get to.

BTW, the comment earlier in the thread that "everyone leaves Keto......no one can follow it for long periods of time" is more horseshit than the rest of the mumbo jumbo you posted.

Open your mind.

[THEVMAN]

well your natty so you should have never done keto. you've most definitely F'd your metabolism up ...you'll rebound pretty bad. keto works, but the metabolic repercussions are too hard to over come. good luck


Gotta respectfully disagree - I have a great nutritionist and I have been guided to make Keto work rotationally, as a natty. It is not easy - in my experience you have to go ZERO carbs for keto to work at its best. Refeed every so often and monitor progress. If you stop losing wt, BF%, then you need to refeed - it take monitoring, and the right balance of good fats, proteins, veggies, and total calories ---- and timing.:yep:

[THEVMAN]

WHERE'S THE PROOF!!!!! I'm natural, I compete, and have dieted both with and without carbs. Comparing my progress numbers via constant hydrostatic weighing on both types of dieting, i know FOR SURE in REAL numbers that I not only kept MORE muscle on keto, but lost MORE FAT!!!!!! And I looked Waaaay better on stage, had an easier time in the dieting process, deeper cuts, striated glutes/hams, and yes; I was FULL on stage! Its not impossible, your generalizing!!!!!

Everyone is different my friend, you need to learn that.

I agree with you - and have had the same experience- could not get below about 6.5% BF without Keto -- which took me to the 4% range

[THEVMAN]

mmm we need evidence than keto slows metabolism down 45%,any studies out there??im starting a prep and i would hate to lose time on keto when i know low carbs works ...
ps.by the way on which diet were u happier keto or anything to do with carbs??

I am happier on carbs - fat is a slow burning energy, so you will not be as "happy". And it is something to cycle. HOWEVER - some people it works for, others can not stand it - so there is no guarantee that your body is carb sensitive vs fat sensitive. You have to experiment and see. Just make sure you STOP all carbs when you start the fats, and get enough of them to provide some energy - so like 40% fat in your diet, lots of veggies and lots of protein. Total calories has to come down to lose we as well - lots of variables to tune

[THEVMAN]

In my experience with Keto, no matter what carbs(complex, simple) you go back to, you will rebound. The rebound would be less severe if you just did oatmeal and brown rice (complex).

IMO the Keto approach is a waste of time and only works for very short periods of time and literally eats muscle off the body.

This may work for the enhanced bodybuilders that Dave Palumbo works with but the majority of people I know have all had poor results in the long run.

Just because it does not work for you does not mean it would not work for someone else - you are jumping to conclusions - and I respectfully disagree - I could get deeper into fat stores on Keto than on very low (brain dead) carbs.

[THEVMAN]

I am coming off KETO.... I know its time to start incorperating some carbs but I am scarred to gain any weight.... and of course it goes directly to my stomach.... I am wondering what the best way would be to put on 10... 15 lbs tops.... I am curently 6 feet 178 around 8% bf...shoud I up carbs? if so when and what kind? or just up fats/cals??? kinda confused any input from past expereinces would help... I just dont want to get fat... I am natural... and alot of people have told me its not good for test and metobolism if natties diet for too long... any info would help thanks guys....

My advice would be to introduce clean carbs like others have said - oats, sweet potato, etc, but here is my caution to you -----> keep it extremely low fat, and low calories. Of course you will gain weight - your carbs will fill the muscles with glycogen and they are likey rather flat from the fat as your only source of energy. Good luck - take it slow

[DJREPS]

Great posts guys !!! Very informative.

[BIGLOUIE]

If I can add my experience...I went from low carb to keto with increased calories..I increased lean mass and my strength jumped up also...I lost body fat and built muscle. Coming off this diet now I will stick with a lower carb approach but want to try the anabolic diet/ carb cycling. It worked great for me!!

[THEVMAN]

You do get some crazy blood test results if you test right after you come off - my T3 & T4 were fine, yet TSH was high - here is something I found that seems to explain pretty well - what do you all think?
I am looking to come off my keto diet in the near future (it has done me well). I am looking for anybodies advice regarding how to re-introduce carbs? any bodies experiences (hackskii I know your a keto fan). I think I am going to go with something like this (extra careful)

There are several reasons why people blow up and gain a lot of weight when trying to come off ketogenic diets. They include:

Carbohydrate intolerance: While on a ketogenic diet, the body becomes more efficient at using fat for energy and therefore "forgets" how to process carbohydrates. So for a few weeks after you start eating normally again, you’ll be storing those carbs and getting fatter. Sure, a lot of it will go to muscle glycogen, but a much larger amount than expected will go to fat stores. It takes a few weeks for the body to "remember" how to process carbohydrates.

Insulin Resistance: Ketogenic diets decrease insulin sensitivity. In fact, in people coming off ketogenic diets, the symptoms are similar to those seen in type-2 diabetics! The likelihood of gaining fat due to this insulin resistance is high.

Stimulants: Most dieters abuse caffeine and ephedrine. Both of these substances decrease insulin sensitivity as well and can induce diabetic like symptoms when reintroducing carbohydrates into the body.

Water Gain: Ketogenic diets, because of their effects on fluid balance, can induce mild dehydration. Although this makes you look lean and "dry", it negatively impacts performance. Once you start eating normally again, the body hyperhydrates, causing massive water retention. Although sometimes uncomfortable, this typically leads to big gains in strength in the gym. However, all this water retention does make the physique "blurry." So most people mistake this water gain for fat gain. Unless you have body fat measures done regularly, it’ll be hard to know whether it’s fat or water.

So now that you know why you blow up, let me tell you how to avoid it:

• The first step is to plan a flexible 6-week transition period in which you’ll taper off the ketogenic diet. The most effective way to transition here is to use the insulin and carbohydrate sensitivity measures discussed in part 2 of my Massive Eating Article. Now listen up… this is important. During this time you’ll be supplementing with insulin sensitizing supplements. I recommend 600 mg of alpha-lipoic acid per day, lots of fish oils (at least 6g of DHA and EPA), glucosol (colosolic acid) at about 50 mg per day, and inzitol (d-pintol) at about 50 mg per day. Remember to take the ALA, glucosol, and inzitol during separate carbohydrate meals. Don’t take them with a carbohydrate free meal or together. In addition, do your cardio. About 30 min 4x per week, separate from weight training, does wonders for increasing insulin sensitivity and carbohydrate tolerance.

• Have an OGTT and a fasted blood insulin and glucose sample taken at the beginning of the transition week (again, see part 2 of the Massive Eating Article).

• During weeks 1 and 2, gradually reintroduce carbohydrates into the diet. Try replacing 10% of your fat with high fiber, low glycemic and insulin index carbohydrates (if your diet is 60% fat, 40% protein change it to 50% fat, 40% protein, 10% carbohydrate). Some good carbohydrate sources are oatmeal, vegetables, nuts, beans, and fruits. This is easier said than done, though, because most often, when reintroducing carbohydrates into the diet, carbohydrate cravings go through the roof! So be prepared and be strong.

• At the start of week 2, have another OGTT and a fasted blood insulin and glucose sample taken. Your insulin sensitivity should be improved due to the supplementation. If not, stay on 10% carbohydrate ‘till it is.

• For weeks 3 and 4, decrease your fat intake and increase your carbohydrate intake to about 20% of the diet, again using high fiber, low GI and II carbohydrates (now you will be at 40%fat, 40% protein, 20% carbohydrate). Follow this for 2 weeks while remaining on the recommended supplements.

• Again, at the start of week 4, have another OGTT and a fasted blood insulin and glucose sample taken. Your insulin sensitivity should be improved due to the supplementation. If not, stay on 20% carbohydrate ‘till it is.

• For weeks 5 and 6, decrease your fat intake and increase your carbohydrate intake to about 30% of the diet, again using high fiber, low GI and II carbohydrates (now you will be at 30% fat, 40% protein, 30% carbohydrate). Once you get to this point, you should be home free.

So will this approach prevent all fat gain? No, but it will definitely minimize it. Just keep in mind that you’ll probably gain some water and that this is a good thing. But this water does scare most people as they mistake it for fat gain. Just hang in there and the body will normalize over the 6-week period and you’ll end up just fine.

[GameofInches]

I hate over thinking things, so when I plan on coming off of the keto diet I will add in 15 grams of carbs (from oatmeal) at the first meal and 15 grams of carbs (from oatmeal) at my PWO meal and then gradually increase those carbs by adding 15 grams of carbs each week.

Week 1: 30 grams each day
Week 2: 45 grams each day
Week 3: 60 grams each day
etc.

I will keep fats low to moderate and add in carbs.

[danapump]

I dont compete. I have trained for 10 years using carbs, but when i went on a keto diet for 12 weeks it blow my mind. Best shape of my life. I lost water and fat so yeah i looked smaller but you could see the muscle. The whole thing about dude your going to have no energy is bullshit!!! Once you get past the transition phase (me about 8 days) you have tons of energy and always feeling good. I am kinda fat now, bad rebound because of carb cravings take over. But that is my own fault. Its fucking hard to tame that beast.

[ctAL]

very good thread........