Infrequent Slin protocol

[Futurefreak]

What are peoples opinions on a INfrequent humalog protocol. Meaning, 2-3 times a week Pre-workout administration.

20-25 mins pre-workout:
-Humalog (3-10ius depends)
-50gram dex/malto or vitargo
-15-20 gram bcaa + Eaa
-10 gram creatine

Repeat same drink INTRA workout.

-Post workout
-40 gram whey hydrolysate
-50 gram vitargo

Also, what do you guys think of using Metformin on days you ARENT taking Slin? I have read ALRI advocates this to keep you insulin sensitive and to keep receptors "fresh". This is all, of course speculative. Slin 2-3 times a week even worth while ? Thoughts, suggestions appreciated.

[Aaron Singerman]

What are peoples opinions on a INfrequent humalog protocol. Meaning, 2-3 times a week Pre-workout administration.

20-25 mins pre-workout:
-Humalog (3-10ius depends)
-50gram dex/malto or vitargo
-15-20 gram bcaa + Eaa
-10 gram creatine

Repeat same drink INTRA workout.

-Post workout
-40 gram whey hydrolysate
-50 gram vitargo

Also, what do you guys think of using Metformin on days you ARENT taking Slin? I have read ALRI advocates this to keep you insulin sensitive and to keep receptors "fresh". This is all, of course speculative. Slin 2-3 times a week even worth while ? Thoughts, suggestions appreciated.

Looks very similar to what I've been using (until recent hand injury). Also similar to what Milos recommends. Keep us updated on your progress!

[maxititer]

Humalog is fast acting insulin, 20-25 mins pre-workout, why do you want to have low BG during workout.

fast acting insulin acting only on liver, it goes direct into liver and inhibit release of glucose from liver and that is it.

[Mr. Shoulders]

I never run slin pre-workout...only post or with GH

[Crexis]

Slin 2-3 times a week even worth while?

I am wondering this too.. Ofcourse combined with GH & AS.

[TaylorB]

What are peoples opinions on a INfrequent humalog protocol. Meaning, 2-3 times a week Pre-workout administration.

20-25 mins pre-workout:
-Humalog (3-10ius depends)
-50gram dex/malto or vitargo
-15-20 gram bcaa + Eaa
-10 gram creatine

Repeat same drink INTRA workout.

-Post workout
-40 gram whey hydrolysate
-50 gram vitargo

Also, what do you guys think of using Metformin on days you ARENT taking Slin? I have read ALRI advocates this to keep you insulin sensitive and to keep receptors "fresh". This is all, of course speculative. Slin 2-3 times a week even worth while ? Thoughts, suggestions appreciated. looks good. personally i use 20iu pre workout when i use slin.


Slin 2-3 times a week even worth while?

I am wondering this too.. Ofcourse combined with GH & AS.
of course 2-3 times per week is worth while. the more often and the more iu used, the more you grow... and the less often and less iu the less you grow. 2-3 times per week is worth while, just dont expect to get the same results as 5-6 times per week. same thing with aas (example = is 300mg per week worth while? of course, just dont expect results like your using a gram a week)

[NPCKnight]

Humalog is fast acting insulin, 20-25 mins pre-workout, why do you want to have low BG during workout.

fast acting insulin acting only on liver, it goes direct into liver and inhibit release of glucose from liver and that is it.

you wont have low blood glucose. you took a VERY SPECIFIC pre workout shake. you take a VERY SPECIFIC intra workout shake too. then maybe one at the end as well.

[NPCKnight]

slin isnt like some orals or fast acting drugs that need maintained blood levels guys...
so OF COURSE 2-3 times a week is fine. Its more than never right? But as stated, more often could produce more results if done correctly.

[Futurefreak]

slin isnt like some orals or fast acting drugs that need maintained blood levels guys...
so OF COURSE 2-3 times a week is fine. Its more than never right? But as stated, more often could produce more results if done correctly.

2-3 times a week would be mostly for being meticulous with dosing on my days off work. I could structure my workout and day around proper nutrient timing. Do you guys think during humalogs window of action, that just soley consuming fat-free whey isolate with fat free carbs would be best suited for no fat deposition. Why not just use whey isolate with your white rice, pasta, cereal etc.....? Seems boring but great amino acid delivery and profile with NO fat whatsoever. Thoughts?

[BIGSNOR]

i've always heard to never take your slin around your GH shot. that the slin totally negates the fat burning effects of the GH. i wouldnt think that slin with the gh at the same time would be that much more beneficial???

as to your post, the more times you do the slin, the better you will heal and recover. so of course 2 to 3 times a week would be better than none. I would stay completely away from fat during slins active window.... also try not to take in TOO many carbs....as that can lead to fat gain also. you have to find out what works for your body with intake....everyone is different.

[maxititer]

you can drink specific drink , glucose from that drink goes into liver first and if you injected fast acting insulin 20 min before workout, your BG will be low, because the main way as insulin lower blood glucose is by blocking glucose release from liver.

injecting insulin PWO even much more worse. PWO insulin already elevated as result of during WO or PWO drink. If you going to inject insulin PWO you will delay recovery of your muscle glycogen for few hours. PWO muscles depleted from glycogen, it is priority number one to restore glycogen, becasue without glycogen there will be no ATP and without ATP no protein synthesis.

I can continue all day long on that topic, believe me.

[NPCKnight]

Max, I think I'll rely on Milos and not you for what does and doesnt work with Slin. Its very obvious what he knows and does works.

[maxititer]

Max, I think I'll rely on Milos and not you for what does and doesnt work with Slin. Its very obvious what he knows and does works.

I would not argue with that, at all

[Aaron Singerman]

you wont have low blood glucose. you took a VERY SPECIFIC pre workout shake. you take a VERY SPECIFIC intra workout shake too. then maybe one at the end as well.

EXACTLY. This is not a method I generally suggest because of the risks involved.

[Aaron Singerman]

you can drink specific drink , glucose from that drink goes into liver first and if you injected fast acting insulin 20 min before workout, your BG will be low, because the main way as insulin lower blood glucose is by blocking glucose release from liver.

injecting insulin PWO even much more worse. PWO insulin already elevated as result of during WO or PWO drink. If you going to inject insulin PWO you will delay recovery of your muscle glycogen for few hours. PWO muscles depleted from glycogen, it is priority number one to restore glycogen, becasue without glycogen there will be no ATP and without ATP no protein synthesis.

I can continue all day long on that topic, believe me.

Max, are you saying that bodybuilders should never use insulin? That it won't produce a more anabolic environment?

[Futurefreak]

you can drink specific drink , glucose from that drink goes into liver first and if you injected fast acting insulin 20 min before workout, your BG will be low, because the main way as insulin lower blood glucose is by blocking glucose release from liver.

injecting insulin PWO even much more worse. PWO insulin already elevated as result of during WO or PWO drink. If you going to inject insulin PWO you will delay recovery of your muscle glycogen for few hours. PWO muscles depleted from glycogen, it is priority number one to restore glycogen, becasue without glycogen there will be no ATP and without ATP no protein synthesis.

I can continue all day long on that topic, believe me.

No no, please do continue? Your displaying breakthrough information saying Insulin may be the most CATABOLIC hormone. This is shocking, do proceed???

[musclempire]

anyone been ripped off buying slin..i know its not illegal just wanted to make sure the cheaper Canadian sites were all legit..thanx in advance..also interested in any reason not to take insulin around ur workout..never heard this b4

[maxititer]

bodybuilders should never use insulin

insulin may be the most CATABOLIC hormone

You guys just said that .... I cant remember when I said that

In fact I believe that insulin is the most potent anabolic hormone

and insulin is most important hormone for bodybuilding, question is when to use it and which kind of insulin to use.

I made two clear statements regarding pre workout and post workout use of fast acting insulin. If you are disagree with any of that statements please explain, when and why I was wrong.

this thread is about "INfrequent humalog protocol" and that is what I think about this protocol - humalog is 100% useless drug for bodybuilding - all what humalod does is inhibiting release of glucose from liver.

If your goal is in inhibiting blood glucose release from liver and lowering your BG you can successfully achieve it with humalog, anything else besides of that is just your imagination.

[Bigsteak]

You guys just said that .... I cant remember when I said that

In fact I believe that insulin is the most potent anabolic hormone

and insulin is most important hormone for bodybuilding, question is when to use it and which kind of insulin to use.

I made two clear statements regarding pre workout and post workout use of fast acting insulin. If you are disagree with any of that statements please explain, when and why I was wrong.

this thread is about "INfrequent humalog protocol" and that is what I think about this protocol - humalog is 100% useless drug for bodybuilding - all what humalod does is inhibiting release of glucose from liver.

If your goal is in inhibiting blood glucose release from liver and lowering your BG you can successfully achieve it with humalog, anything else besides of that is just your imagination.
So are you saying to use hum-r instead pre workout or just no slin at all pre workout or post? Give an example of how a bodybuilder would use slin going by what you have stated in previous posts. thx.

[maxititer]

difference between fast acting insulin and intermediate/long acting insulin is in distribution patterns. Intermediate acting and long acting insulin have time to spread all over the body and reach muscles as well. But fast acting insulin goes into liver and it is done. Levemir is one of the most advanced insulin on market at present, main difference from bodybuilding point of view, between levemir and other forms of long/intermediate acting insulin is in the fact that levemir will do not cause fat accumulation, but most other insulns certainly will do contribute to fat deposits, especially if used in high doses.

another advantage of levemir - you will never run into hypo with it, no need to take extra carbs at all.

[Futurefreak]

Isnt humalog anywhere from 2-4 hours of activity? Are you saying it will be worthless for replenishing glycogen, as well as, shuttling protein/aminos into the cells for a greater protein synthesis response? This is turning into an interesting debate, dont hesitate to share your knowledge and experience!

[Aaron Singerman]

Max, tells us more about levemir... I'm interested in why you believe it to be better for muscle gains. Please give us as much detail as you are able. Dosage, Timing, etc...

From the research I've done on levemir, it seems very promising... but it sounds like you've been looking in to it for a while.

[hilly]

max has posted a lot of interesting info on levemir over on ukiron.net and their are a few lads over their trying it at the moment. seems they are having good results with it so far. I intend to use some once i finish dieting and get my bodyfat low enough.

[maxititer]

When insulin molecule bind to insulin receptor on the cell, as result of receptor activation that cell opening channel on membrane and then water soluble nutrients able to pass inside the cell. For any insulin to be effective for muscles growth, insulin molecules have to be able to reach that muscles. Because of slow release levemir can reach muscles and act on insulin receptors on muscles cells. Levemir slow release system very natural, levemir bind to albumin and stay in circulation for long time that way. Very similar to cjc1295.

Levemir almost does not have pick concentration till 20iu per day, and can be safely used in high doses, and on very high doses (when it really becomes great mass building drug), without risk of hypo.

Levemir easy to monitor and titrate doses up, if you will start with 10iu morning injection, you can check fasting BG next morning and if it will be not less then 70mg/dl 3-4 days in a row, then you can increase dose on 3-4 iu. Alternatively it can be increased as 5 iu each week. Pretty simple. Optimal ratio for GH to levemir is 1iu GH on 3iu of levemir. Levemir not required to be cycled, you can use it year long on ED base.

Hope you all understand that this information for entertainment purpose only.

[Futurefreak]

When insulin molecule bind to insulin receptor on the cell, as result of receptor activation that cell opening channel on membrane and then water soluble nutrients able to pass inside the cell. For any insulin to be effective for muscles growth, insulin molecules have to be able to reach that muscles. Because of slow release levemir can reach muscles and act on insulin receptors on muscles cells. Levemir slow release system very natural, levemir bind to albumin and stay in circulation for long time that way. Very similar to cjc1295.

Levemir almost does not have pick concentration till 20iu per day, and can be safely used in high doses, and on very high doses (when it really becomes great mass building drug), without risk of hypo.

Levemir easy to monitor and titrate doses up, if you will start with 10iu morning injection, you can check fasting BG next morning and if it will be not less then 70mg/dl 3-4 days in a row, then you can increase dose on 3-4 iu. Alternatively it can be increased as 5 iu each week. Pretty simple. Optimal ratio for GH to levemir is 1iu GH on 3iu of levemir. Levemir not required to be cycled, you can use it year long on ED base.

Hope you all understand that this information for entertainment purpose only.

With the levemir elevated all day long, does one keep his fat intake to bare minimum, or is it a balanced insulin environment? Are you suggesting that humalog is COMPLETELY worthless for optimal insulin gains or can you dose it more frequent throughout the day? SINGERMAN, please get Milos to come onto this thread!!!! That would be awesome.

[TaylorB]

the idea that humalog wont work on skeletal muscle insulin receptors is ludacris




and any one with 3 seconds experience on humalog in the gym will undoubtedly testify to that fact.

[Bigsteak]

With the levemir elevated all day long, does one keep his fat intake to bare minimum, or is it a balanced insulin environment? Are you suggesting that humalog is COMPLETELY worthless for optimal insulin gains or can you dose it more frequent throughout the day? SINGERMAN, please get Milos to come onto this thread!!!! That would be awesome.
Bump.

[Aaron Singerman]

With the levemir elevated all day long, does one keep his fat intake to bare minimum, or is it a balanced insulin environment? Are you suggesting that humalog is COMPLETELY worthless for optimal insulin gains or can you dose it more frequent throughout the day? SINGERMAN, please get Milos to come onto this thread!!!! That would be awesome.

I'll text him, but Milos is very busy right now... He's making some big business moves. I'll see what I can do...

[maxititer]

intake of fats in normal range during the time when insulin level is elevated does not cause extra fat deposits.

another insulin glargine even better for muscle growth, but will contribute more to fat deposits then levemir and also some reduction in eye sight power was reported with glargine.

glargine has 8 fold more affinity to IGF1 receptors then normal insulin and can directly stimulate proliferation of muscle cells. also glargine can much better reach muscles cells from blood circulation.

humalog also modified that way so it more looks like IGF1, but humalog did not show any stimulation of myoblast proliferation in vitro.

[maxititer]

here is some points to consider regarding PWO use of fast acting insulin. I worte it about one year ago, but still it looks quite relevant to me at least.

PWO fast acting insulin has many negative consequences.

1. lower blood glucose when we need it most for krebs cycle to generate ATP - no ATP no protein synthesis. Time when protein synthesis will start significantly delayed.

2. low blood glucose will stimulate secretion of glucagon, another pancreatic hormone. glucagon will use proteins to support glucose level. Instead of helping protein synthesis we are stimulating release of glucagon which will digest those proteins in muscles, which are still remained PWO.

3. fast acting insulin create sharp rise in insulin level as result IDE insulin degrading enzymes will be on rise too. It has few negative consequences: first it will leave us on low insulin level even after our humalog is gone, second IDEs can degrade IGF too. Instead of having more Igf in circulation PWO we are lowering it.

4. Did not serve the purpose - our goal PWO to make muscles to absorb more glucose and amino acids, insulin instead blocking release of glucose from liver and muscle cells already have GLUt4 transporter at any time and do not depend on insulin to absorb glucose.

5. if you drinking carbs/proteins drink during workout or PWO (everybody do) then you insulin PWO will be elevated already, simply does not make any sense injecting more insulin.

[Futurefreak]

and how about pre-workout fast insulin benefits and negative effects???

[maxititer]

and how about pre-workout fast insulin benefits and negative effects???

fast acting insulin will lower BG, low BG means secretion of glucagon, glucagon will brake down muscle proteins for maintenance of BG. doing so you creating worst possible scenario, low BG - not enough glucose for krebs cycle, low ATP, no protein synthesis and plus glucagon searching around for remaining proteins.

seems like very counterproductive.

you can drink some carbs same time, but insulin does not shuttle anything, that idea is wrong. All what insulin can do is to bind to insulin or IGF1 receptors and activate one of receptor's substrate inside the cell.

[NPCKnight]

W t f

[Futurefreak]

fast acting insulin will lower BG, low BG means secretion of glucagon, glucagon will brake down muscle proteins for maintenance of BG. doing so you creating worst possible scenario, low BG - not enough glucose for krebs cycle, low ATP, no protein synthesis and plus glucagon searching around for remaining proteins.

seems like very counterproductive.

you can drink some carbs same time, but insulin does not shuttle anything, that idea is wrong. All what insulin can do is to bind to insulin or IGF1 receptors and activate one of receptor's substrate inside the cell.

MILOS!!! Please come chime in!!! haha, this would get interesting if he does.

[PowerCoach]

Not at all a fan of the inclusion of Metformin as the original poster inquired about....Metformin, I'm not really sold on it's insulin sensitivity capabilities, as much as it slows/interferes with carb absorbtion....
2nd, it's a bad idea in my opinion to use in conjuction with slin as Metformin interferes with your livers ability to release glucose into your bloodstream...a reaction you will desperately need if you go hypo to save your ass.......

[Futurefreak]

Not at all a fan of the inclusion of Metformin as the original poster inquired about....Metformin, I'm not really sold on it's insulin sensitivity capabilities, as much as it slows/interferes with carb absorbtion....
2nd, it's a bad idea in my opinion to use in conjuction with slin as Metformin interferes with your livers ability to release glucose into your bloodstream...a reaction you will desperately need if you go hypo to save your ass.......

Thanks for the insight PC. I never liked the idea that Metformin raises SHBG and apparently may act as an anti-androgen. To what extent, Im not sure and if it would hinder someone's gains that is "enhanced" is in question.

[Futurefreak]

fast acting insulin will lower BG, low BG means secretion of glucagon, glucagon will brake down muscle proteins for maintenance of BG. doing so you creating worst possible scenario, low BG - not enough glucose for krebs cycle, low ATP, no protein synthesis and plus glucagon searching around for remaining proteins.

seems like very counterproductive.

you can drink some carbs same time, but insulin does not shuttle anything, that idea is wrong. All what insulin can do is to bind to insulin or IGF1 receptors and activate one of receptor's substrate inside the cell.

Im sure there have been tons of top level bodybuilders who have used or are using this pre workout humalog protocol, and seem to respond well and get results from it? If so, what can they attribute their results from? It seems it would make them be more catabolic from excess glucagon using up valuable aminos. This practice should be ruining their physique goals, not enhancing? Any explanation?

[TaylorB]

the low blood glucose argument - totally faulty


the argument that humalog wont bind to insulin recpetors on skeletal muscle - totally false

the ides that lowblood glucose stimulates glucoagon release and glucogon will eat proteins - flawed. glucAGON IS RELEASED WITH PROTEIN INTAKE AND COUNTER ACTS THE EFFECTS OF INSULIN. ITS A METABOLIC HOMRONE, MUCH WEAKER THAN INSULIN. (sry 4 d caps)

[maxititer]

Im sure there have been tons of top level bodybuilders who have used or are using this pre workout humalog protocol, and seem to respond well and get results from it? If so, what can they attribute their results from? It seems it would make them be more catabolic from excess glucagon using up valuable aminos. This practice should be ruining their physique goals, not enhancing? Any explanation?

as I understand, the question is not who and what using, but what would be the most effective, safe and optimal use of insulin. That is really important question, becasue with insulin you can reduce amount of other drugs and get better result.

[Futurefreak]

as I understand, the question is not who and what using, but what would be the most effective, safe and optimal use of insulin. That is really important question, becasue with insulin you can reduce amount of other drugs and get better result.


Kinda dodged the question. What can these experienced bodybuilders attribute to their gains using humalog? What caused such gains? Your logic dictates that they should have digressed. not progressed? What is happening here?

[Futurefreak]

What would be interesting would be if someone has photos of them BEFORE including humalog into their regimen. Then have photos of them a year later AFTER cycling humalog into their regimen. Of course these would have to be people who ALREADY stressed anabolic use to the max and added the slin into equation.

[Bigsteak]

What would be interesting would be if someone has photos of them BEFORE including humalog into their regimen. Then have photos of them a year later AFTER cycling humalog into their regimen. Of course these would have to be people who ALREADY stressed anabolic use to the max and added the slin into equation.
Future Freak I think someone posted pics of Silvio before working with Milos and after fuck I can't recall where i saw those pics?

[flexingtonsteele]

Future Freak I think someone posted pics of Silvio before working with Milos and after fuck I can't recall where i saw those pics?

www.milossarcev.com

there somewhere on there, check it out.

[flexingtonsteele]

actually check these pages of the board out, its somewhere on there.

http://milossarcev.com/board/index.php?board=182.0

[TaylorB]

www.milossarcev.com (http://www.milossarcev.com)

there somewhere on there, check it out.


http://milossarcev.com/board/index.php?board=182.0

[maxititer]

Kinda dodged the question. What can these experienced bodybuilders attribute to their gains using humalog? What caused such gains? Your logic dictates that they should have digressed. not progressed? What is happening here?

I'm understand my ideas may sound like out of box and confusing, well cant help here.

Same time, I cant say much about other bodybuilders, who used humalog. Also I should recognize your argument as valid, if somebody become big by using humalog, that it is definitely way to go. Cant see any problem here.

[Futurefreak]

actually check these pages of the board out, its somewhere on there.

http://milossarcev.com/board/index.php?board=182.0

SON OF A BITCH!!! Some imposter stole my Futurefreak handle on Milos board!!! hahha, Im mildly offended. I'll start a new name I suppose.

[Futurefreak]

I'm understand my ideas may sound like out of box and confusing, well cant help here.

Same time, I cant say much about other bodybuilders, who used humalog. Also I should recognize your argument as valid, if somebody become big by using humalog, that it is definitely way to go. Cant see any problem here.


Yes, they are a bit confusing, since I personally am not thorough with insulin usage. However, this is a discussion forum and your thoughts are much appreciated. Dont get offended by others debating, just state your reasoning to back up what you say. Keep the ideas comin....!

[Futurefreak]

bump

[maxititer]

"there is nothing good or bad, but thinking make it so"

I'm not sure what do you want to know, but I know that I don't give a f--k who and what do and think, as long as I have my head on my shoulders. I will not accept as serious prove any kind of anecdotal evidence, even if it is only kind of evidence we have.

I don't want to be involved in any kind of insulin war either. Opinions made and opinions changed all the time. I presented my idea and clear and honest form, what kind of impact it may have or may not, it is not depend on me.

I did my home work on insulin so now you do yours.

I have great respect for Milos for what he had done for bodybuilding. My ideas on insulin use different from his and that is all, I do not obliged to provide any prove or evidence that my ideas better then his.

As I already said this information for entertainment purpose only!

[Futurefreak]

I appreciate the info you have given to this thread. Do you compete yourself or just live a bodybuilding lifestyle? You seem to have great experience and knowledge. Let us know more about you maxititer. All opinions and ideas are welcome and appreciated.

[PowerCoach]

Back to the topic of pre workout slin useage....what is never brought up yet should be part of the assessment in the pre/post debate are the other systemic reactions that the timing can create.
Insulin is a potent vaso-constrictor, thus a pre-workout selection besides the other dangers can also create a not-so friendly cardiac environment........no thank you. There is a reason Type 1 diabetics frequently battle vascular and ciculatory problems, due to this potent effect insulin has on other systemic reactions.

[maxititer]

I appreciate the info you have given to this thread. Do you compete yourself or just live a bodybuilding lifestyle? You seem to have great experience and knowledge. Let us know more about you maxititer. All opinions and ideas are welcome and appreciated.

no I never been a bodybuilder, I spent most of my life in a labs. Love bodybuilding ... trying to develop optimized approach in drugs use in sports.

[maxititer]

Back to the topic of pre workout slin useage....what is never brought up yet should be part of the assessment in the pre/post debate are the other systemic reactions that the timing can create.
Insulin is a potent vaso-constrictor, thus a pre-workout selection besides the other dangers can also create a not-so friendly cardiac environment........no thank you. There is a reason Type 1 diabetics frequently battle vascular and ciculatory problems, due to this potent effect insulin has on other systemic reactions.

good point! add here high hematorit and it is very close to situation brain stroke or heart infarction. becasue of no pick concentration long acting insulin safer in regard to vasoconstriction too.

[Futurefreak]

Back to the topic of pre workout slin useage....what is never brought up yet should be part of the assessment in the pre/post debate are the other systemic reactions that the timing can create.
Insulin is a potent vaso-constrictor, thus a pre-workout selection besides the other dangers can also create a not-so friendly cardiac environment........no thank you. There is a reason Type 1 diabetics frequently battle vascular and ciculatory problems, due to this potent effect insulin has on other systemic reactions.


What explains the "insane pumps" you get from pre-wo slin? Also, David Barr said Insulin release creates Mass amounts of blood flow which increases nitric oxide, which should hemodilate you....Is he speaking out of his ass? I know when I spike insulin pre-workout, it does something much more pronounced that any Nitric oxide pre-cursor does. Does it perhaps vaso-contrict in other tissues and dilate in others?

[NPCKnight]

no I never been a bodybuilder, I spent most of my life in a labs. Love bodybuilding ... trying to develop optimized approach in drugs use in sports.

so i assume YOU have NOT USED insulin?

[PowerCoach]

good point! add here high hematorit and it is very close to situation brain stroke or heart infarction. becasue of no pick concentration long acting insulin safer in regard to vasoconstriction too.

Thanks for the props Max, and you are on the money...a very dangerous environment, and the element of the equation that is overlooked 99% of the time.

[NPCKnight]

You assume wrong. Maxi uses long acting Levemir but he can elaborate on that if he so chooses.

I hope he does elaborate. He just said he was never a bodybuilder...yet he supposedly uses insulin. Its all well and good. Max I have no problem with you bro, but I do question your ways in hopes of learning and making sense of what doesnt seem so 'common'.

[RazorRipped]

Insulin 101 for newbie’s by RazorRipped


This post is just a simple guide for first time insulin users to follow in a safe, and effective manner.

The type of insulin I’m talking about is Humalog

I urge you to invest in a glucometer. This will give you a close estimation of where your BG(Blood Glucose) levels are (Safe Zone 70-90,but independent upon each individual).You want to take in adequate amounts of carbs, but not too much. As the excess will be stored as fat. And yes, if you aren’t careful, you can add quite a bit of excess body fat. As you’ll see in my dosing example below, we drop carbs slightly as to not to acquire excess BF.

You need to know the signs of hypoglycemia:
The body's biochemical response to hypoglycemia usually starts when sugars are in the high/mid 60's. At this point, the liver releases its stores and the hormones such as glugagon, cortisol, growth hormone and epinephrine, all increase. In many patients, this process occurs without any clinical symptoms.
While there is some degree of variability among people, most will usually develop symptoms suggestive of hypoglycemia when blood glucose levels are lowered to the mid 50's. The first set of symptoms are called neuro-genic (or sympathetic) because they relate to the nervous system's response to hypoglycemia. People may experience any of the following;
• nervousness,
• sweating,
• intense hunger,
• trembling,
• weakness,
• palpitations, and
• often have trouble speaking
To educated yourself further here’s a link http://www.medicinenet.com/hypoglycemia/article.htm

Never go to sleep while slin is active, nor take hot showers, sauna’s, nor tan.


As you already might know. The basic rule is 10g waxy maize to 1 iu of Insulin. Now the trick is to get in tune with your body so to take advantage of the insulin spike, which allows nutrients to be shuttled to the muscle cells rapidly, doing so without taking in excess carbs which equates to body fat.



Below is a 30 day cycle(which is recommended) for Insulin. I don’t use Insulin on off days from the gym. Some like to use Insulin on off days in the morning to fight off the catabolic state we’re in upon awakening. I feel upon awakening in the morning a shake consisting of Whey/ Dextrose would be sufficient, or better yet, SOLID FOOD, to bring you out of this catabolic state from fasting over an 8 hour period while sleeping.


I’ll use the 5 day training split as an example here. That will give you 20 days “on” slin.



Day 1 : 5 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 2 : 5 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 3 : 5 iu slin/50g Dextrose


Congratulations!! You’ve survived thus far. I assume (hope) you’ve been monitoring your BG levels. You probably have noticed that you are in the higher range using 50g of Dextrose PWO. Now it’s time to drop the carbs slightly. Don’t fret. This should be more than ample amounts (of carbs) to get you through to your PWO meal.



Day 4 : 5 iu slin/40g Dextrose

Day 5 : 5 iu slin/40g Dextrose



At this point you should have a good idea of how you react with Insulin in terms of BG levels vs. carb intake .



Let’s up the dose……



Day 6 : 6 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 7 : 6 iu slin/50g Dextrose

By this point in time you should be feeling good( ie; more confident),but still respectful to Insulin. Let’s test the waters for 3 days to give you the feel of things. By that I mean we’ll drop the carb intake slightly so you can find a comfortable ratio in regards to iu’s vs. carbs per gram.



Day 8 : 6 iu slin/40g Dextrose

Day 9 : 6 iu slin/40g Dextrose

Day 10 : 6 iu slin/40g Dextrose


Now, the above ratio’s are safe and effective. You can stop right here and continue on for the next 10 days at the above doses/ratio’s. Or you can move forward slightly.



Day 11 : 7 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 12 : 7 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 13 : 7 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 14 : 7 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 15 : & iu slin/50g Dextrose

If you felt confident with the above protocol. You could experiment on days 14-15 and drop your Dextrose to 40g.If you do so, please monitor your BG levels every 15 minutes or so. And have glucose tabs, or another source of quick carbs handy (like orange juice) to stave off any possible signs of hypoglycemia. Don’t panic should this happen, just drink a glass of orange juice, or similar, and in 10 minutes the symptoms will have subsided.



Ok, on to your final week.



Day 16 : 8 iu slin/60g Dextrose

Day 17 : 8 iu slin/60g Dextrose

Day 18 : 8 iu slin/60g Dextrose

Day 19 : 8 iu slin/60g Dextrose

Day 20 : 8 iu slin/60g Dextrose


Congratulations! You just completed your first cycle/experience with Insulin in a safe an effective manner. I stopped at 8 iu’s, Being that is enough to get your feet wet with the drug. You can experiment later on. This was simply a guide.



One last thing. Guys ask “Which way is better?” To take your Whey/ Dextrose in one shake, or Dextrose first, and whey 15 minutes later”?

Bottom line is, it’s just preference. But I do prefer to take my Dextrose first with creatine, BCAA, Luecine, then 15 minutes later have a whey isolate shake.1.5 hrs later have your PWO meal.


~RR

[kr1zpy]

^^^uh oh double R is playgerizing Pinnacle again:);):D

[RazorRipped]

^^^uh oh double R is playgerizing Pinnacle again:);):D

Yea, that fucking guy has more personalities than Sybil:)

[Futurefreak]

You assume wrong. Maxi uses long acting Levemir but he can elaborate on that if he so chooses.

I assume from your post that maxi has disclosed levemir usage to you? If so, please share your experience or thoughts if thats ok with maxi?

[NPCKnight]

Razor...awesome info...seen it before and glad it is here. This thread has centered around Maxi's 'new' and different ideas and another type of insulin i had never heard of called Levemir.

The entire premise of this thread was originally talking about pre workout insulin. So Razor, please touch upon the correct/safe protocol for that if you can outline one.

Maxi was advocating against the use of humalog pre and or post workout. This is where this thread got interesting and where a lot of wondering started.

[RazorRipped]

The entire premise of this thread was originally talking about pre workout insulin. So Razor, please touch upon the correct/safe protocol for that if you can outline one.

.

Nice try, but this thread isn't about pre work out slin...lol..you just want it to be.


I don't post my pre work out slin protocol on my board, why would I post it here?

You guys want to use Milo's protocol go ahead. But be forewarned, his protocol is designed to go along with his training protocol of high volume coupled with giant sets. So in that case higher amounts of carbs are justified. For everyone else training differently, using his pre WO slin protocol to the letter will equate to excess fat gains, and very quickly I might add. His protocol is good, for his style training, and his trainee's he over sees.
The one thing I found besides having to reduce carbs dramatically is, solid food pre work is far better than having one of his liquid concoctions pre workout. PWO meal can be far different than what he has his trainee's do.

The trainee's I have running my version( Pre WO slin) are making very lean gains. No excess fat accumulation at all. It's all about having the numbers dialed in to correlate with the amount of slin used.

~RR

[NPCKnight]

Razor...I respect you and dont need to argue this or that but if you read the first thread by the poster of this thread, it is about pre workout slin. Which much of the talk has centered around. So yes, while its not mentioned in the title as for when the slin is taken, it is pretty clear from the onset the parameters of when and where the slin is being administered for the original poster and question.

From what you are saying here Razor, you have to find the right amount of slin and carbs...just as with any slin protocol. Milos telling people to take 35g of sugars in each of 3 shakes is not too insane an amount..given it isnt all at one time. Thats 105g of total carbs so we are talking 10-15iu of insulin MOST LIKELY.

I am now experimenting with the solid food vs his pre workout shake to see which i like better.

[NPCKnight]

humalog is 100% useless drug for bodybuilding - all what humalod does is inhibiting release of glucose from liver.

If your goal is in inhibiting blood glucose release from liver and lowering your BG you can successfully achieve it with humalog, anything else besides of that is just your imagination.


this is where i got interested and confused. Razor or anyone else care to elaborate on what Maxititer MAY have stumbled onto as far as a revelation? Is he infact correct?

[Aaron Singerman]

Still waiting on Milos...

[BIGSNOR]

not to hijack, but razor, even when usin slin preworkout wouldnt you want to use the least amount of carbs possible without goin hypo? or would that not be beneficial, change that, OPTIMAL towards building lean mass.

[RazorRipped]

not to hijack, but razor, even when usin slin preworkout wouldnt you want to use the least amount of carbs possible without goin hypo? .

That's exactly the whole idea behind slin. It isn't about seeing how much carbs you can take in.

[maxititer]

just trying to better understand the theory which can justify pre workout insulin use.

please correct me if I'm wrong

you are injecting insulin then drinking some carbs drink and idea is that insulin will facilitate glucose transport and absorption by muscles for better performance. That seem like very logical theory.

Period after a meal or after taking carbs drink called absorptive period, that means the period of time during which glucose can be absorbed. So, idea seems like, that if you will have more insulin at this time, then you will get more glucose delivered and stored by muscle cells and as glycogen.

Almost perfect theory, but

injection of fast acting insulin will do not improve glucose absorption during absorptive period. Why then BG level drops after insulin injection, it goes down not because more glucose get absorbed, but becasue insulin blocking release of glucose from liver. (Brown et al.1978)

so, by injecting insulin and taking glucose you are not going to deliver more glucose to muscles at all.

Perhaps there should be some better theory.

recommended articles:

Mechanism of action of insulin in diabetic patients: a dose-related effect on glucose production and utilisation.
P M Brown, C V Tompkins, S Juul, and P H Sönksen

Insulin: understanding its action in health and disease
P. Sonksen1,* and J. Sonksen2

[hilly]

so max would levemir not actually do this better as it is working throughout the day? than taking humalog pre workout.

[TaylorB]

just trying to better understand the theory which can justify pre workout insulin use.

please correct me if I'm wrong

you are injecting insulin then drinking some carbs drink and idea is that insulin will facilitate glucose transport and absorption by muscles for better performance. That seem like very logical theory.
the idea behind insulin iis a few different things.

aas highly promotes protein synthesis, but weakly inhbits protein breakdown. insulin highl;y inhibits protein breakdown, but weakly promotes protein synthesis. so combining aas and insulin gets the combo of high protein synthesis wwith inhibtion of protein breakdown. this yeilds the most protein accrual..... its not about synthesis or about breakdown....its about synthesis vs. breakdown.

when training your breaking down loads of glycogen and also some amino acids. this is why insulin is best used during this time.


although its more complex than this and i could go into more detail on different factors why insulin helps growth... this is the basic idea.




Period after a meal or after taking carbs drink called absorptive period, that means the period of time during which glucose can be absorbed. So, idea seems like, that if you will have more insulin at this time, then you will get more glucose delivered and stored by muscle cells and as glycogen.

Almost perfect theory, but

injection of fast acting insulin will do not improve glucose absorption during absorptive period.
this is just plain and simple wrong. insulin promotes glucose uptake in muscle. fact.

[Futurefreak]

What would milos say about this? haha

[PowerCoach]

this is just plain and simple wrong. insulin promotes glucose uptake in muscle. fact.


It's all about seeking the maximum payoff, in regards to what Max is going for with levemir.....your statement is correct...about 20%, that is.
The remaining 80% is an uptake occuring in fat cells at the cell level...insulin is highly anabolic to fat cells, much greater than muscle cells, due to fat cells having far more activity at the receptor level.

What I believe Max is going for is the extended period of time under influence, as the more rapid the onset, the more the activity will be 1st on fat cells, then muscle....longer time=more opportunity for balance, as muscle receptors tend to be less sensitive than fat...the longer time muscle cells have to 'wake up'....the greater the opportunity for targeted results.
As an example, think of all the gizmos and gadgets used in an attempt to stimulate glucose uptake for muscle cells....what gizmos and gadgets are the Fat/Obese using with their fast/junk food to get that awesome 'bulk' look they so readily achieve...???

[maxititer]

benefit of insulin can go far beyond on delivery glucose to muscle cells. about 75% of absorbed glucose goes to muscles in any way.

Insulin is very important hormone for BB for many other reasons and after looking into current practice of how insulin used, I realized that there is a lot of improvement can be made. Insulin can directly activate IGF1 receptor and stimulate division of muscle satellite cells. Insulin glargin for example can activate IGF1 receptors 8 fold better then normal insulin.

Why is insulin so important, here is some insulin's arithmetics.

Most of dividing cells in our body expresing insulin receptor, any other drugs we use to stimulate growth acts mostly on diving cells. Let take a closer look.

Suppose, initially we do have 10 cells, then they will divide and we got 20 cells, then 40, 80, 160 in 5 division cycles we have number of cells increased in 16 times and all of them express insulin receptor and depends on insulin in uptake of nutrients. becasue those immature yet cells does not have GLUT4 transporters on membranes.

Well, what next then, if they will not get insulin, they will not get nutrients and they will stop dividing and most will induce apoptosis self programed death.

We cannot expect that our body will start producing insulin in 16 times more, amount of endogenous insulin is the MAIN limiting factor for growth, stimulated by any other drugs.

Number of cells in our body , which expressing insulin receptors absolutely huge at any time.

Conclusion which I made from such consideration is that, for effective use we have to use more insulin. I don't wanna sound sensational or give any recommendation on doses, but main advantage of long acting insulin is that you can safely use it on high doses.

[RazorRipped]

[QUOTE=PowerCoach;67261]

as the more rapid the onset, the more the activity will be 1st on fat cells, then muscle....longer time=more opportunity for balance, as muscle receptors tend to be less sensitive than fat...the longer time muscle cells have to 'wake up'....[QUOTE]







That is not accurate or true at all. Slin first restores liver glycogen, then glyocogen intramuscularly. It's EXCESS glycogen that is stored as fat.

Can you explain by your hypothetical theory how many guys use insulin during contest prep and manage to get shredded? By your account, using insulin wold make it very difficult to loss fat.

I guess I need to get my buddy Narkosis over here to explain how he has his clients use upwards 50 iu's a day during contest prep, and all of them get ripped to pieces:) By your account, you're saying it would be literally impossible.

You also seems to be saying all Milo's trainee's aren't getting shredded for thier shows either.:)

[TaylorB]

carbs themselves very rarely go to fat in the human body. carbs make your body store fat into fat. thats why they make people fat, in most cases. i saw a study once where a bunch of people downed 500g dextrose...only like 2-5g was put to fat... and this was not hard training bodybuilder...and was not on aas... and was not with protein...and was not with slin........ insulin with only carbs and protein wont make you fat... not unless your going very extreme with it

[maxititer]

Around 20% of glucose goes to brain during absorptive period. there is no storage form of glucose in the brain, all of the glucose that is absorbed is "burned". The brain is extremely sensitive to reduced blood glucose levels and do not depend on insulin in its ability to absorb glucose.

Liver also compete for absorbed glucose and liver is very capable competitor and do not depend on insulin to be able absorb glucose same as brain. The kidneys take up about 10% of the consumed glucose

But skeletal muscles dominate in the fight for glucose, absorbing about 50% (some data suggest up to 75%) of the total glucose uptake. Perhaps PWO absorption of glucose by muscles will be much higher.

[jacshelb]

I want to say that I am really enjoying reading all this info. The main point I've picked up on from this thread so far is that a longer acting insulin will allow you to tolerate a higher dose and therefore more benifit. Very interesting. Still, not for me because I prefer to make use of a shorter window of time and not have to plan my entire day around it. I'm not sure I understand a lot of the other points such as how humalog won't help with glycogen and protein absorbtion in muscle. I still don't get that.

So, wouldn't it be of benefit to have a shake with whey, waxy maize (or preferred carb) 1/2 hr or so before injection if you were going to try to take advantage of using a faster acting insulin? Or, am I missing the entire point?

When Milos was talking about his protocol he said it was a bad idea to take whey after your shot because it wouldn't be in the bloodstream and that it was better to have amino acids. That really hit home for me. So, my idea for myself is to have whey and a slower acting carb 1/2 hr before humalog shot. Then after the shot have amino acids and waxy maize during workout.

[RazorRipped]

But skeletal muscles dominate in the fight for glucose, absorbing about 50% (some data suggest up to 75%) of the total glucose uptake. Perhaps PWO absorption of glucose by muscles will be much higher.

You seem to be contradicting yourself in this thread Max. One moment you say slin stops the liver from releasing glucose to the blood stream to be shuttled to muscle tissue, then this..



It's all about seeking the maximum payoff, in regards to what Max is going for with levemir.....your statement is correct...about 20%, that is.
The remaining 80% is an uptake occuring in fat cells at the cell level...insulin is highly anabolic to fat cells, much greater than muscle cells, due to fat cells having far more activity at the receptor level.



Ummmm, maybe you should read the post above. This is what happens to threads parrots typing too soon!:)

Care to respond to my post above?

[maxititer]

Originally Posted by maxititer View Post
But skeletal muscles dominate in the fight for glucose, absorbing about 50% (some data suggest up to 75%) of the total glucose uptake. Perhaps PWO absorption of glucose by muscles will be much higher.


You seem to be contradicting yourself in this thread Max. One moment you say slin stops the liver from releasing glucose to the blood stream to be shuttled to muscle tissue, then this..


I did not say a word in the previous sentence about insulin. Those percentages shows how normally glucose utilized by different tissues without insulin injections.

That is well accepted opinion that insulin will inhibit glucose release from liver. Insulin can create drop in BG level by reducing hepatic glucose out put. With small doses of insulin, drop in BG level totally created by liver, without increase in rate of glucose utilization by peripheral tissues.

[RazorRipped]

That is well accepted opinion that insulin will inhibit glucose release from liver. Insulin can create drop in BG level by reducing hepatic glucose out put. .

You know the old saying about opinions, don't you Max?

You see, we are looking for stone cold facts here. You haven't proven anything. Just stated opinions, which is fine.


Sure your BG levels drop eventually after injecting slin. What time frame "in your opinion" does this occur? 1 hour? 2 hours?

~RR

[Aaron Singerman]

When Milos was talking about his protocol he said it was a bad idea to take whey after your shot because it wouldn't be in the bloodstream and that it was better to have amino acids. That really hit home for me. So, my idea for myself is to have whey and a slower acting carb 1/2 hr before humalog shot. Then after the shot have amino acids and waxy maize during workout.

He recommends using EAAs and a simple carb... Whey protein would divert blood from the muscle to the gut.

[NPCKnight]

Waxy maize...LOL. come on aaron you know better.
Dextrose, Gatorade, Vitargo...... with all the key ingrediants added. Bcaa, Eaa, Creatine, Glutamine. Perhaps extra leucine.
None of these added ingrediants requires digestion either....which is why you can easily ingest them during the workout. Unlike whey which needs to be digested.

[Aaron Singerman]

Waxy maize...LOL. come on aaron you know better.
Dextrose, Gatorade, Vitargo...... with all the key ingrediants added. Bcaa, Eaa, Creatine, Glutamine. Perhaps extra leucine.
None of these added ingrediants requires digestion either....which is why you can easily ingest them during the workout. Unlike whey which needs to be digested.

lol... did I say waxy maize?

[flexingtonsteele]

just curious, if ur not a pro, high level national competitor, or have the potential to be one, why are u taking insulin? The risk arent worth the rewards if ur just taking it to be "big" at the gym in a shirt.

i dont know thats just me.

[tiramisu]

The insulin will kill you card gets played every time on of these threads pops up.

How many bodybuilders have actually killed themselves or ended up in a coma from insulin use?

I would guess the most common result for people misusing insulin with no sense of diet and training management is out of control obesity but that's just my guess.


... a quick google search finds me one in 2002 and one in 2000 not exactly a plague of deaths.

[flexingtonsteele]

The insulin will kill you card gets played every time on of these threads pops up.

How many bodybuilders have actually killed themselves or ended up in a coma from insulin use?

I would guess the most common result for people misusing insulin with no sense of diet and training management is out of control obesity but that's just my guess.


i also dont see why your avg gym rat uses 2 or 3 grams of sauce a week, but this thread isnt about aas its about insulin.

[maxititer]

You know the old saying about opinions, don't you Max?

You see, we are looking for stone cold facts here. You haven't proven anything. Just stated opinions, which is fine.


Sure your BG levels drop eventually after injecting slin. What time frame "in your opinion" does this occur? 1 hour? 2 hours?

~RR

that can be very lengthy process if we will go into details and there is no guaranty that we will have clear picture at end of this discussion too. In medicine interpretation of many fundamental issues related to insulin and glucose metabolism are in very unhealthy and politicized condition. Scientific facts known for years denied and old dogmas continued be printed in endocrinology text books. Depend on what kind of sources you are going to use - scientific literature or text books on medicine you can easy will be able provide different, absolutely contradicting concepts.

So rather then going into this kind of shady area, I would prefer to left it to readers to find the truth and I just can recommend some readings.

That well worth to research this area, no doubts

Insulin: understanding its action in health and disease (http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/1/69)

Insulin, growth hormone and sport
P H Sonksen
(http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/170/1/13.pdf)


Mechanism of action of insulin in diabetic patients: a dose-related effect on glucose production and utilisation

P M Brown, C V Tompkins, S Juul, P H Sönksen
Six insulin-requiring diabetics were studied after insulin had been withheld for 24 hours. On three separate occasions each received a two-hour infusion of insulin at a low dose (2·6 U/h) and a high dose (10·6 U/h) and an infusion of saline as control. The rates of production and utilisation of glucose were measured isotopically. The rate of fall of plasma glucose concentration was faster on the high-dose infusion of insulin than on the low, whereas the fall in plasma free fatty acids, glycerol, and keton bodies was the same on both insulin infusions. The mechanism whereby the two rates of insulin administration lowered plasma glucose concentration differed: during the low-dose infusion the decrease in the glucose concentration was produced entirely by a fall of hepatic glucose output, whereas during the high-dose insulin infusion the glucose concentration fell because both the rate of glucose production fell and the rate of glucose utilisation rose. In all experiments there was a direct relation between a fall in serum potassium concentration and the fall in plasma glucose concentration irrespective of the mechanism that reduced the glucose concentration.

These results indicate that in uncontrolled diabetics low-dose insulin infusions lower the blood glucose concentration entirely by reducing glucose production from the liver and that the effect of insulin on potassium transport is independent of its effect on glucose uptake.

[RazorRipped]

Waxy maize...LOL. come on aaron you know better.
, Vitargo...... .

Waxy and pure Vitargo are basically the same thing. So in essence maybe Aaron should LOL right back at you.:)

[RazorRipped]

that can be very lengthy process if we will go into details and there is no guaranty that we will have clear picture at end of this discussion too.

LOL. It's quite simple to see when BG levels fall off for any individual. Use a glucometer!

The study you posted showed no times tables, so once again, you haven't shown one thing in this thread to back your claim. I'm becoming convinced you are more a politician than man of science simply because you dance around topics throwing things out there that have no relevancy to back your claims. :)

[maxititer]

Sure your BG levels drop eventually after injecting slin. What time frame "in your opinion" does this occur? 1 hour? 2 hours?

that will depend on time when insulin going to reach peak concentration.

here is the table comparing different insulins

[maxititer]

LOL. It's quite simple to see when BG levels fall off for any individual. Use a glucometer!

The study you posted showed no times tables, so once again, you haven't shown one thing in this thread to back your claim. I'm becoming convinced you are more a politician than man of science simply because you dance around topics throwing things out there that have no relevancy to back your claims. :)

that is totally up you to decide.

I posted links to full articles and if you wish you can find prove to anything what I said in those articles. seems like good enough to me.

[jacshelb]

just curious, if ur not a pro, high level national competitor, or have the potential to be one, why are u taking insulin? The risk arent worth the rewards if ur just taking it to be "big" at the gym in a shirt.

i dont know thats just me.


I'm not trying to argue for the sake of it. But, your questions bring up more questions like:

Can you kill yourself with low dose infrequent insulin use? I think you'd have to work pretty damn hard at it. Like I said, start out with very low doses and take in some carbs... danger averted! It's people that don't know what they are doing that end up dead from this stuff. That's why it's good to discuss it. True someone could disregard all warning and inject 15 IUs first time out with little to no carbs and go into a coma or die, they would be an dumb ass. Lots of intelligent info here from various people, that can be an asset.

Why is it acceptable for a top amature to use one thing and not a regular guy who wants to be big? That's like the old Mitch Hedburg joke about Gatorade. Is it just for athletes? Does that lightening-bolt on the side mean "no"? How about if I'm just a thirsty dude?

[Futurefreak]

Maxititer......is that you in your avatar in a lab coat?

[maxititer]

Maxititer......is that you in your avatar in a lab coat?

no, I'm older:cool:

[NPCKnight]

b
Waxy and pure Vitargo are basically the same thing. So in essence maybe Aaron should LOL right back at you.:)
but did he LOL? NO. this might be the first naive/ignorant comment i have ever seen you post bro.

[NPCKnight]

LOL. It's quite simple to see when BG levels fall off for any individual. Use a glucometer!

The study you posted showed no times tables, so once again, you haven't shown one thing in this thread to back your claim. I'm becoming convinced you are more a politician than man of science simply because you dance around topics throwing things out there that have no relevancy to back your claims. :)

BACK TO REALITY. razor spitting truth.

[flexingtonsteele]

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of it. But, your questions bring up more questions like:

Can you kill yourself with low dose infrequent insulin use? I think you'd have to work pretty damn hard at it. Like I said, start out with very low doses and take in some carbs... danger averted! It's people that don't know what they are doing that end up dead from this stuff. That's why it's good to discuss it. True someone could disregard all warning and inject 15 IUs first time out with little to no carbs and go into a coma or die, they would be an dumb ass. Lots of intelligent info here from various people, that can be an asset.

Why is it acceptable for a top amature to use one thing and not a regular guy who wants to be big? That's like the old Mitch Hedburg joke about Gatorade. Is it just for athletes? Does that lightening-bolt on the side mean "no"? How about if I'm just a thirsty dude?

Insulin wasnt made for guys at the gym who want to put on some size, it was made for diabetics whose bodies can longer produce the amounts of insulin necessary to control blood sugar levels.

If your just your average guy and u want to get big, eat, lift weights, and if u want to take drugs, then by all means go ahead.

But isnt the goal of all of this to live a healthy long life? If it is, than using rx insulin for just fuck sakes isnt the way to do that.

[jacshelb]

Insulin wasnt made for guys at the gym who want to put on some size, it was made for diabetics whose bodies can longer produce the amounts of insulin necessary to control blood sugar levels.

If your just your average guy and u want to get big, eat, lift weights, and if u want to take drugs, then by all means go ahead.

But isnt the goal of all of this to live a healthy long life? If it is, than using rx insulin for just fuck sakes isnt the way to do that.

Honestly, I hear what you are saying. I was just trying to lighten the mood a bit on a serious thread. Though, I really do disagree that insulin is as dangerous as people say. You must be very cautious, but using three times per week at just a few IUs with carbs/eaas, I don't think you'd be doing any short or long term damage of any kind. Insulin is pulsed within the body at intervals all day long. A short acting insulin, used infrequently in low doses isn't going to interrupt this process to any great degree imo.

If you are getting more "hardcore" with it and using it 5-6 days a week in larger doses, or longer acting insulin. Yeah, then you start fucking with your system and risking long term damage.

[maxititer]

But isnt the goal of all of this to live a healthy long life? If it is, than using rx insulin for just fuck sakes isnt the way to do that.

and why it is not the way ... too risky perhaps?

With age out testicles producing less testosterone and we doing testosterone replacement therapy, our pancreas producing less insulin with age too, and why not to do insulin replacement therapy.

there are many questions which may need some good consideration, try to be too skeptical and you can miss something nice.

[TaylorB]

Insulin wasnt made for guys at the gym who want to put on some size, with the exception of a few of them, steroids arent made for gym rats who want to put on more size, either. for example.. if one is using a human grade testosterone, then they are using something made for men whose bodies no longer produce enough testosterone... testosterone's arent made for gym rats who want to get bigger. :) they arent healthy either




But isnt the goal of all of this to live a healthy long life?. NO lol

[flexingtonsteele]

and why it is not the way ... too risky perhaps?

With age out testicles producing less testosterone and we doing testosterone replacement therapy, our pancreas producing less insulin with age too, and why not to do insulin replacement therapy.

there are many questions which may need some good consideration, try to be too skeptical and you can miss something nice.

If your diet is good and your not gorging yourself with garbage, your pancreas will be just fine.

The reason we have so many type 2 diabetes nowadays is of there own doing, its not something that should happen, its something that happens because of all the processed garbage that people put in there bodies, and that our pancreas' are doing 1000x times the work that they were meant to.

If people ate the way that our bodies were built to eat, then type 2 diabetes wouldnt even be a topic of conversation. it would be in the back of health books with dust over it.

[flexingtonsteele]

with the exception of a few of them, steroids arent made for gym rats who want to put on more size, either. for example.. if one is using a human grade testosterone, then they are using something made for men whose bodies no longer produce enough testosterone... testosterone's arent made for gym rats who want to get bigger. :) they arent healthy either


NO lol

come on taylor, your young bro, u should be doing this for your health. Its for the long term man.

remember that.

u dont want to be that fat 40 yr old bald dude in the gym with big arms, and a gut that hangs over your lifting belt. U want to be that ripped old dude whose like 60 but looks better than 99% of the people in the gym!

[TaylorB]

come on taylor, your young bro, u should be doing this for your health. Its for the long term man.

remember that.

u dont want to be that fat 40 yr old bald dude in the gym with big arms, and a gut that hangs over your lifting belt. U want to be that ripped old dude whose like 60 but looks better than 99% of the people in the gym!
ill be that 22 year old dude who is 300lbs with abs ;)

[flexingtonsteele]

ill be that 22 year old dude who is 300lbs with abs ;)

how old are u now tbombz?

[TaylorB]

well...... i gave my self 3 years to reach that

[stavios]

well...... i gave my self 3 years to reach that

haha freak :D

[maxititer]

If your diet is good and your not gorging yourself with garbage, your pancreas will be just fine.

The reason we have so many type 2 diabetes nowadays is of there own doing, its not something that should happen, its something that happens because of all the processed garbage that people put in there bodies, and that our pancreas' are doing 1000x times the work that they were meant to.

If people ate the way that our bodies were built to eat, then type 2 diabetes wouldnt even be a topic of conversation. it would be in the back of health books with dust over it.


that is good point, after they spend millions for diabetes prevention and declare it as national problem number one. Perhaps they should first prohibit food advertisements on TV.

[NPCKnight]

Maxi...
I think it would benefit all in this discsussion if you wrote out a thorough protocol using Levemir and how to use it best and why it would be the best. Get as in depth as possible so we can understand your reasoning.

[flexingtonsteele]

that is good point, after they spend millions for diabetes prevention and declare it as national problem number one. Perhaps they should first prohibit food advertisements on TV.

bro, where i work id say 50% of the people that ive had conversations with have diabetes ( type 2 ) and ALL of them damn near are prescribed metformin.

with all the money that pharmaceutical companies are making off of giving drugs to these carb loving fools, theres no way people will ever be properly educated on how to eat.

but if they wanted to, the book protein power by Michael R. Eades, Mary Dan Eades will tell them everything they'd ever want to know.

[flexingtonsteele]

oh yea,

since i mentioned metformin in my last post, RR i know ur a big fan of the drug.

would u care to share how u use it with your clients?

[RazorRipped]

would u care to share how u use it with your clients?

LMAO

NO

Yea, I'm just going to lay out my pre WO slin protocol, plus diet, all the while my trainee's are paying me for things such as that.
Same with metformin. I'm very vague(on boards) to how it's used properly. Very very vague:) There's way more to it than just taking metformin. It's in conjunction with other drugs (and slin isn't one of them):)


You really think there is such thing as a free lunch in this sport?

[maxititer]

Maxi...
I think it would benefit all in this discsussion if you wrote out a thorough protocol using Levemir and how to use it best and why it would be the best. Get as in depth as possible so we can understand your reasoning.

the concept is pretty simple start with 10iu levemir ED and increase on 5 iu every week. Diet is same, within increase in dose, levemir will make you naturally eat more. At the end of each week check morning fasting BG for 2-3 days, if BG not less then 70mg/dl, then your diet correct, and you are ready to move 5 iu up. For 16 weeks bulking cycle it may look like.

week 1 10 iu
week 2 15 iu
week 3 20 iu
week 4 25 iu
week 5 30 iu
week 6 35 iu
week 7 40 iu

depend on how its going you may choose to stay on 40 through out the cycle.
60-70iu ED also not rare thing.

With levemir and GH fat deposits are rare thing even with 70iu ED. Insulin glargine more effective for muscle growth, becasue has better affinity for IGF1 receptor, but has some safety concerns like reduction in eye sight power, fat accumulation also more likely to happen with glargine.
GH Frags 176-191 have been used with levemir and can help to keep low BF during bulking cycle.

[NPCKnight]

so how then does this mechanism work on a moderate fat diet? how will you NOT store that fat if insulin is active and you are consuming fats?

and this dosing above is all taken at once right? one single shot for the dosing...not several shots? what is the active life of levemir?

[flexingtonsteele]

LMAO

NO

Yea, I'm just going to lay out my pre WO slin protocol, plus diet, all the while my trainee's are paying me for things such as that.
Same with metformin. I'm very vague(on boards) to how it's used properly. Very very vague:) There's way more to it than just taking metformin. It's in conjunction with other drugs (and slin isn't one of them):)


You really think there is such thing as a free lunch in this sport?

its not like training and dieting are some mad science bro, people higher a guru/contest prep advisor or whatever u want to call it so they can make changes, have a watchful eye, someone to listen to there problems, etc.

again its not rocket science everyone does basically the same thing with slight variances to get the same results. so i doubt if u gave away some info online it would ruin your training business.

but do as u wish, i could care less since i dont use either slin or metformin, but i just thought there were some people on this board who would like to see a new take on something they might be trying.

[maxititer]

so how then does this mechanism work on a moderate fat diet? how will you NOT store that fat if insulin is active and you are consuming fats?

and this dosing above is all taken at once right? one single shot for the dosing...not several shots? what is the active life of levemir?

yes, it is usually morning injection, depend on the dose, levemir activity will low in 12-14 hours. Difference with fast acting insulin not only in time, but becasue of greater distribution all over the body with levemir, insulin concentration in tissues are not so significant. That is why you can use bigger amount.

Fatty acids competing with glucose in same metabolic pathway, so if you are consuming fats during the time when insulin elevated it will not make you accumulate more fats. It is same metabolic pathway does no matter what will go down that pathway fatty acids or glucose.

That is one of famous confusion related to insulin resistance. When some eat meal and his BG rise, he declared insulin resistant. That is funny thing in fact. Like I can say that if some body resist to be injected with insulin, he is also insulin resistant, and both cases equally flown.

rise in BG level can not be related to insulin resistance or insulin deficiency, but problems can be down in the metabolic pathway, for example glucose can enter the cell, but if krebs cycle overloaded with glucose already, then our glucose molecule will go back the the blood and cause rise in BG.

same, when we injecting GH, BG can rise, why because GH is lipolitic and increasing amount of free fatty acids in circulation, fatty acids competing with glucose and BG lever rise. That is called frank diabetes usually may happens during first two weeks after the start of GH.

I would be delighted to see if some can provide explanation on that idea, that consuming fats during time when insulin active will make you accumulate more fats. Till now that does not happen.

[RazorRipped]

its not like training and dieting are some mad science bro, people higher a guru/contest prep advisor or whatever u want to call it so they can make changes, have a watchful eye, someone to listen to there problems, etc.

again its not rocket science everyone does basically the same thing with slight variances to get the same results. so i doubt if u gave away some info online it would ruin your training business.

but do as u wish, i could care less since i dont use either slin or metformin, but i just thought there were some people on this board who would like to see a new take on something they might be trying.

LMAO. Do you really think I'm here to help people make progress/get bigger ect?

Truth is, I don't give a flying fuck what anyone here does.
I get involved in discussions here, moderate, that's it!

Know who I help out for FREE on my board? Guys who contribute on a daily basis. I don't give a flying fuck about the people that come looking to leach information from me. I delete their PM's when they ask questions ect.
But when a regular member asks for help, I give it. Hell, I'm working with 5 people on my board for FREE with their offseason, and another 4 I'm currently doing contest prep for FREE.

[TaylorB]

yes, it is usually morning injection, depend on the dose, levemir activity will low in 12-14 hours. Difference with fast acting insulin not only in time, but becasue of greater distribution all over the body with levemir, insulin concentration in tissues are not so significant. That is why you can use bigger amount.

Fatty acids competing with glucose in same metabolic pathway, so if you are consuming fats during the time when insulin elevated it will not make you accumulate more fats. It is same metabolic pathway does no matter what will go down that pathway fatty acids or glucose.

That is one of famous confusion related to insulin resistance. When some eat meal and his BG rise, he declared insulin resistant. That is funny thing in fact. Like I can say that if some body resist to be injected with insulin, he is also insulin resistant, and both cases equally flown.

rise in BG level can not be related to insulin resistance or insulin deficiency, but problems can be down in the metabolic pathway, for example glucose can enter the cell, but if krebs cycle overloaded with glucose already, then our glucose molecule will go back the the blood and cause rise in BG.

same, when we injecting GH, BG can rise, why because GH is lipolitic and increasing amount of free fatty acids in circulation, fatty acids competing with glucose and BG lever rise. That is called frank diabetes usually may happens during first two weeks after the start of GH.

I would be delighted to see if some can provide explanation on that idea, that consuming fats during time when insulin active will make you accumulate more fats. Till now that does not happen.

dude, you know some stuff, but you still ave alot of basic shit to learn about bio chemistry. you are very confused and misinformed.

[flexingtonsteele]

LMAO. Do you really think I'm here to help people make progress/get bigger ect?

Truth is, I don't give a flying fuck what anyone here does.
I get involved in discussions here, moderate, that's it!

Know who I help out for FREE on my board? Guys who contribute on a daily basis. I don't give a flying fuck about the people that come looking to leach information from me. I delete their PM's when they ask questions ect.
But when a regular member asks for help, I give it. Hell, I'm working with 5 people on my board for FREE with their offseason, and another 4 I'm currently doing contest prep for FREE.

good for you!

[Futurefreak]

dude, you know some stuff, but you still ave alot of basic shit to learn about bio chemistry. you are very confused and misinformed.


Wait isnt Maxititer like 60 yrs old and your 19?

[Futurefreak]

Experimented with my original posted protocol. It was pretty sweet. It felt exactly like a post competition rebound. I wanted to leave the gym early due to massive pumps, but stuck it out and finished. No sides at all and so far, so good.

[BIGSNOR]

yah bro, the preworkout slin gives massive, painful pumps. I just hope its doing more than giving a massive pump which i can get from a hardcore workout, correctly timed food and supplementation along with water intake, but im sure it is. I seem to be steadily gaining weight.

One bad thing, it seems like my pumps are getting so ridculous that my muscles are tightening up in the middle of my sets, and then I pull something! even while keeping the form tight. just train smart and know your limits. my strength is shooting up so much, im taking too big of jumps and my body is just saying NO!

[TaylorB]

Wait isnt Maxititer like 60 yrs old and your 19?
and ?

[maxititer]

dude, you know some stuff, but you still ave alot of basic shit to learn about bio chemistry. you are very confused and misinformed.

If you not a confused you are missing a point, dude
from your posts I can see that you learned only how to make blank statements.

I was learning biochemistry when you was not born, dude.
If you want to teach me more, you are always welcome, as no one should be satisfied with what he/she already learned.

[TaylorB]

If you not a confused you are missing a point, dude
from your posts I can see that you learned only how to make blank statements.

I was learning biochemistry when you was not born, dude.
If you want to teach me more, you are always welcome, as no one should be satisfied with what he/she already learned.
heres two quick things ill tell you =

gh causes rise in bg because it causes muscle cells to release stored glucose into blood.

insulin is a "storeage hormone" that causes nutrients in the blood to go be pushed into cells. carbs store in muscle, fat stores...where? ;)

[RazorRipped]

heres two quick things ill tell you =

gh causes rise in bg because it causes muscle cells to release stored glucose into blood.

)

Actually HGH causes the release of fat ie: lyposis

[maxititer]

heres two quick things ill tell you =

gh causes rise in bg because it causes muscle cells to release stored glucose into blood.

insulin is a "storeage hormone" that causes nutrients in the blood to go be pushed into cells. carbs store in muscle, fat stores...where? ;)

let me give you one advise, which can save you from a lot of troubles in life. If you want to be respected by others, try first to respect them. You cannot expect that people will respect your opinion, if you do not show some respect too.

You are right that insulin is storage hormone, but idea of how insulin store proteins and lipids presented by you, too simple. Certain things just cant be simplified, without been damaged significantly.

For GH issues I would recommend the book called

HUMAN GROWTH HORMONE RESEARCH AND CLINICAL PRACTICE

Edited by
ROY G. SMITH, PHD
Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TX
and
MICHAEL O. THORNER, MD
University of Virginia Health Sciences Center,
Charlottesville, VA

HUMANA PRESS
TOTOWA, NEW JERSEY

Most current opinion regarding insulin and lipids metabolism was reviewed in this article, available for free full article. May require some significant will power to read.

Insulin signalling and the regulation of glucose and lipid metabolism
Alan R. Saltiel* & C. Ronald Kahn†
*Life Sciences Institute, Department of Medicine, University of Michigan School of Medicine, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109, USA
(e-mail: [email protected])
†Joslin Diabetes Centre, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02215, USA (e-mail: [email protected])

[TaylorB]

let me give you one advise, which can save you from a lot of troubles in life. If you want to be respected by others, try first to respect them. You cannot expect that people will respect your opinion, if you do not show some respect too.

You are right that insulin is storage hormone, but idea of how insulin store proteins and lipids presented by you, too simple. Certain things just cant be simplified, without been damaged significantly.

For GH issues I would recommend the book called

HUMAN GROWTH HORMONE RESEARCH AND CLINICAL PRACTICE

Edited by
ROY G. SMITH, PHD
Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TX
and
MICHAEL O. THORNER, MD
University of Virginia Health Sciences Center,
Charlottesville, VA

HUMANA PRESS
TOTOWA, NEW JERSEY

Most current opinion regarding insulin and lipids metabolism was reviewed in this article, available for free full article. May require some significant will power to read.

Insulin signalling and the regulation of glucose and lipid metabolism
Alan R. Saltiel* & C. Ronald Kahn†
*Life Sciences Institute, Department of Medicine, University of Michigan School of Medicine, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109, USA
(e-mail: [email protected])
†Joslin Diabetes Centre, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02215, USA (e-mail: [email protected])

i didnt 'show you respect', however i didnt disrespect you either... even when you DID disrespect me. so you can save your life lessons for yourself, hoepfully you live longer so you can learn to practice what you preach. old man. (and yeah that was disrespect)

gh causes release of both fatty acids from adipose and also glucose from muscle cell. its a metabolic hormone opposite insulin.


what i said about insulin being a storeage hormone was very simplified, yes, i dont have a phd and i dont have the capability t break down the technical stuff into laymens terms, however what i said is accurate, albeit simplified. insulin puts fat into fat.

[Futurefreak]

Taylor, you seem to know your stuff.......Any pics of what your knowledge has done for you? Are you doing teen division? Have you competed? Just curious?

[TaylorB]

Taylor, you seem to know your stuff.......Any pics of what your knowledge has done for you? Are you doing teen division? Have you competed? Just curious?
i posted a picture of myself in the 18 and over section... pictures arent my thing...and besides im a fatboy about 20%.. ill compete, maybe, if i can have a shot at winning the excalibur

[Futurefreak]

Just get your feet wt and try it out. You will probably never be satisfied with yourself, so just see what happens. Anyways, back to insulin.

[Futurefreak]

On my INfrequent days of Hlog. I think using ONLY fat-free whey isolate with every carbohydrate laden meal seems to be perfect. you get FAST assimilation of complete protein source, with rice, yams etc.....to create a fat free, muscle fueling/loading meal. Obviously extremely low fat white fish such as cod and roughy would suffice, but screw it just use whey isolate. Thoughts?

[TaylorB]

On my INfrequent days of Hlog. I think using ONLY fat-free whey isolate with every carbohydrate laden meal seems to be perfect. you get FAST assimilation of complete protein source, with rice, yams etc.....to create a fat free, muscle fueling/loading meal. Obviously extremely low fat white fish such as cod and roughy would suffice, but screw it just use whey isolate. Thoughts?
thats what i like to do. i put lemon juice in my whey isolate. gotta make sure your ph is balanced.

[RazorRipped]

i didnt 'show you respect', however i didnt disrespect you either... even when you DID disrespect me. so you can save your life lessons for yourself, hoepfully you live longer so you can learn to practice what you preach. old man. (and yeah that was disrespect)

.


Strike # 1 Infraction coming your way

You continue your charade here motherfucker, your days are fucking numbered. Understand me boy?

Just one more fucking remark to ANYONE on this board, and bye bye.

~RR

[RazorRipped]

Just one more fucking remark to ANYONE on this board, and bye bye.

~RR

Like I said above...bye bye you little fat fuck!

[maxititer]

talking to one friend recently, who did a lot of work in lab with insulin producing cells, interesting thing, they discovered that insulin can be stored inside of the cells and released later. Initially they thought about those cells as insulin producing, but later learned that cells just releasing stored insulin. That may explain phenomenon of delayed hypo.

[smvmuscle]

LMAO. Do you really think I'm here to help people make progress/get bigger ect?

Truth is, I don't give a flying fuck what anyone here does.
I get involved in discussions here, moderate, that's it!

Know who I help out for FREE on my board? Guys who contribute on a daily basis. I don't give a flying fuck about the people that come looking to leach information from me. I delete their PM's when they ask questions ect.
But when a regular member asks for help, I give it. Hell, I'm working with 5 people on my board for FREE with their offseason, and another 4 I'm currently doing contest prep for FREE.



As a member of RR's board he is a great guy and also gives plenty of usful info "for FREE" and even though he says he does "not give a flying fuck" whether you get big or not. he is a wealth of valid an usful info and even though im not a paying customer as of (yet i plan to use RR as my contest prep person later in the year)..He will answer most questions!!!.. but guys people pay money for some of the info that you guys ask these "guru's" for. they dont have to give any info for free but they do out of a love for this shit...:bowdown:

by the way this is one of the best threads i have read in a long time. SO please stop the bullshit and get back to the subject at hand "INSULIN" :popcorn:

just my thoughts on that. now let the insulin debate continue

[RazorRipped]

smv... notice I said I don't give a flying fuck what anyone does "HERE. ;) And I really don't!:)

My board, I help all "contributing" members. Here, I moderate...

[RazorRipped]

...



You bitter becuase my moderators banned you?

Flame me, or anyone else outside the PIT again, and you'll be gone here too!


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