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UnfinishedBusiness
10-06-2009, 11:34 AM
OK, usually I have some type of soreness the next day after a workout, nothing too intense, but enough to know I hit the muscle.

My question is if I am not sore the next day, does that mean that I did not hit the muscle hard enough to cause any micro tears, hence no growth?

JohnBoy
10-07-2009, 12:35 PM
You don't necessarily NEED to be sore to grow. How have your workouts been over the past few weeks/months? How often are you training?

MichaelWayne
10-07-2009, 12:44 PM
How long have you been doing this routine? How regular is your diet? Any extra stress or workload in your life?

These are the biggest three things for MYSELF that determine how sore (if any) I'll be.

Youngguns
10-07-2009, 12:48 PM
Anytime I have a good enough workout (that I feel at the time) I am always at least somewhat sore the next days...

UnfinishedBusiness
10-07-2009, 01:05 PM
I have been training for years, I am 35 and been training heavily on and off since I was 14. I was a pretty competitive bb in the mid 90's, took several years off before getting back into it pretty seriously last year with hopes of competing again.

This time around I am much more interested in the science and physiology of bb and muscle growth.

My diet is a variation of the Palumbo cutting diet. I train using a 5 day split, I try to hit the muscle as heavy and hard as I can without sacrificing form.

I would say that 90% of my workouts I feel the next day, the feel ranging from a deep tissue sore to, yeah, I know I worked the muscle yesterday but if I had to I could hit it again today. It is rare when I don't feel it at all, but it does happen on occasion.

I know that muscle grows from creating tiny muscle tears and being filled in by aminos in the blood stream.

I guess ultimately my question comes down to this, if you create those tiny muscle tears, are you sore from it the next day? Or can you still create those tears that enable growth, and not feel it the next day?

TheTransformator
10-07-2009, 02:50 PM
No Pain...No Gain...DOMS are killing me now while on the first 14 days of my transformation...but to answer your Q...you know you will grow if you're sore...

Strikerrjones
10-09-2009, 12:54 AM
No Pain...No Gain...DOMS are killing me now while on the first 14 days of my transformation...but to answer your Q...you know you will grow if you're sore...

That doesn't answer the question at all, actually.

UnfinishedBusiness
10-09-2009, 10:50 AM
That doesn't answer the question at all, actually.


Nope, it does not.

The thing I find interesting is that my pump and workout does not always indicate my level of soreness the next day.

For example there are days when I really feel like I killed my workout, unreal pumps that last a LONG time after, deep muscle burns, and the next day no soreness whatsoever.

Then some days I feel like I might not have hit the muscle hard enough, and the next day I feel like the muscle is annihilated.

Then of course there are many degrees in between.

Just curious on what the general consensus is on next day soreness as an indicator of having created the required micro tears?

TPT
10-11-2009, 05:23 PM
OK, usually I have some type of soreness the next day after a workout, nothing too intense, but enough to know I hit the muscle.

My question is if I am not sore the next day, does that mean that I did not hit the muscle hard enough to cause any micro tears, hence no growth?


doms is a symptom of muscle damage.

however, the lack of doms does not mean microtears did not occcur.

thus, muscle growth could still occur.

TPT
10-11-2009, 05:38 PM
I have been training for years, I am 35 and been training heavily on and off since I was 14. I was a pretty competitive bb in the mid 90's, took several years off before getting back into it pretty seriously last year with hopes of competing again.

This time around I am much more interested in the science and physiology of bb and muscle growth.

My diet is a variation of the Palumbo cutting diet. I train using a 5 day split, I try to hit the muscle as heavy and hard as I can without sacrificing form.

I would say that 90% of my workouts I feel the next day, the feel ranging from a deep tissue sore to, yeah, I know I worked the muscle yesterday but if I had to I could hit it again today. It is rare when I don't feel it at all, but it does happen on occasion.

I know that muscle grows from creating tiny muscle tears and being filled in by aminos in the blood stream.

I guess ultimately my question comes down to this, if you create those tiny muscle tears, are you sore from it the next day? Or can you still create those tears that enable growth, and not feel it the next day?


you may be sore or you may not. do not use doms as a reliable indicator of micro tears or growth. do not use it as an dependent indicator of "good" workouts.

muscle hypertrophy still occurs without doms.

doms is a symptom of muscle damage. but, the extent of doms is dependent on multiple variables including training, nutrition, supplementation or drugs.

the logic of "sick" doms as being good for you and indicating growth is invalid. you might have doms and causing the lack of growth of your muscles.

TPT
10-11-2009, 05:39 PM
No Pain...No Gain...DOMS are killing me now while on the first 14 days of my transformation...but to answer your Q...you know you will grow if you're sore...


actually, you dont know that you will grow.

AVBG
10-11-2009, 07:02 PM
Being sore the next day is not an accurate way of measuring the effectiveness of your workout. I myself don't get sore shoulders no matter what I do, however I have learned that if I overdo my shoulders with volume/intensity/weight they tell me in their way that they're fucked by the "click" that I will get by the next day.

Measure the effectiveness of your workout by keeping a log of workouts ie personal bests in weight lifted/reps used for a weight. When the parameters that your measuring stall- which they will, mix up the workout by changing order of exercises/or split, using different techniques ie pre-exhauset, giant sets, rest/pause.

Deltasaurus
10-11-2009, 07:07 PM
I train HIT and say i train chest monday im usually sore tueday and sometimes more sore or less sore wednesday,
but what about legs? im usually the most sore 2 days after training? is this bad?
I train heavy and hard to failure and beyond, i have a spot on diet and rest routine as well.
How would i know if im doing more harm then good?

AVBG
10-11-2009, 07:17 PM
I train HIT and say i train chest monday im usually sore tueday and sometimes more sore or less sore wednesday,
but what about legs? im usually the most sore 2 days after training? is this bad?
I train heavy and hard to failure and beyond, i have a spot on diet and rest routine as well.
How would i know if im doing more harm then good?

Are you pushing past previous bests? Growing? Feeling ready for the next workout? Energy levels up?

Being sore after a tough workout aint a bad thing..all I'm saying it shouldn't be the way anyone judges the quality of the workout.

If your not recovered by the time your training the bodypart, feel lethargic or ill..they're indicators that it would be potentially damaging.

UnfinishedBusiness
10-12-2009, 10:19 AM
doms is a symptom of muscle damage.

however, the lack of doms does not mean microtears did not occcur.

thus, muscle growth could still occur.

Great info! Thanks!

Next logical question would be, is there a reliable indicator that microtears are occurring during your workout?

TheTransformator
10-12-2009, 11:05 AM
actually, you dont know that you will grow.

Well...for me personally it is a sign...and most of those I know...of course if you overtrain before recovery...than you would also end up having it...but not gain..e

TPT
10-12-2009, 12:57 PM
Great info! Thanks!

Next logical question would be, is there a reliable indicator that microtears are occurring during your workout?


no problem, ub.

some evidence or measures of exercise induced muscle damage exist including histological, biochemical, and functional. most of us care about functional evidence so i will speak to this.

functional outcomes inherently have limitations because they are indirect measures. but, in the gym or clinic they are all we have. strength loss is a reliable and valid indicator for muscle damage. as is the predictable recovery of the strenth loss. 30 to 50 percent reductions in strength can be measeure post exercise for moderately intense strength programs. and up to 5 to 7 days of recovery.

other indirect measures include low frequency fatigue, neurological symptoms, range of motion or stiffness, swelling, and of course doms. i dont recemmend these as reliable indicators.

you migt observe that these are just examples of part of the story to muscle hypertrophy. adaption is necessary. not just muscle damage or doms.

doms does not cause growth. nor is it an indicator of growth.

and doms does not mean you had a great workout.

TPT
10-13-2009, 01:08 PM
guys, check this out.

Scand J Med Sci Sports. (javascript:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'Scand J Med Sci Sports.');) 2002 Dec;12(6):337-46.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/query/egifs/http:--www3.interscience.wiley.com-aboutus-images-wiley_interscience_150x34.gif (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/fref.fcgi?PrId=3046&itool=AbstractPlus-def&uid=12453160&nlmid=9111504&db=pubmed&url=http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/resolve/openurl?genre=article&sid=nlm:pubmed&issn=0905-7188&date=2002&volume=12&issue=6&spage=337) Links (javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu12453160);)

Delayed-onset muscle soreness does not reflect the magnitude of eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage.

Nosaka K (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Nosaka%20K%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Newton M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Newton%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Sacco P (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Sacco%20P%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Exercise and Sports Science, Graduate School of Integrated Science, Yokohama City University, Yokohama, Japan.
This study investigated the relationship between delayed-onset muscle soreness and other indicators of muscle damage following eccentric exercise. Male students (n = 110) performed 12 (12ECC), 24 (24ECC), or 60 maximal eccentric actions of the elbow flexors (60ECC). Maximal isometric force, relaxed and flexed elbow joint angles, upper arm circumference, and plasma creatine kinase activity were assessed immediately before and after, and for 4 days after exercise. Muscle soreness (SOR) was evaluated by a visual analog scale (a 50-mm line, 0: no pain, 50: extremely painful) when the elbow flexors were palpated (SOR-Pal), flexed (SOR-Flx) and stretched (SOR-Ext). Although 24ECC and 60ECC resulted in significantly (P <; 0.05) larger changes in all indicators and slower recovery compared to 12ECC, no significant differences were evident for SOR-Pal and SOR-Flx between 12ECC and 24ECC, or 12ECC and 60ECC. In contrast, SOR-Ext was significantly (P <; 0.05) lower for 12ECC compared to 24ECC and 60ECC. A Pearson product-moment correlation showed SOR-Pal did not correlate significantly with any indicators, however, SOR-Ext and SOR-Flx showed weak (r <; 0.32) but significant (P <; 0.05) correlations with other indicators. Because of generally poor correlations between DOMS and other indicators, we conclude that use of DOMS is a poor reflector of eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage and inflammation, and changes in indirect markers of muscle damage and inflammation are not necessarily accompanied with DOMS.
PMID: 12453160 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

TPT
10-13-2009, 01:12 PM
I train HIT and say i train chest monday im usually sore tueday and sometimes more sore or less sore wednesday,
but what about legs? im usually the most sore 2 days after training? is this bad?
I train heavy and hard to failure and beyond, i have a spot on diet and rest routine as well.
How would i know if im doing more harm then good?


differences of muscle damage and recovery between upper and lower extremities might exist.

Comparison between leg and arm eccentric exercises of the same relative intensity on indices of muscle damage.

Jamurtas AZ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Jamurtas%20AZ%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Theocharis V (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Theocharis%20V%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Tofas T (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Tofas%20T%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Tsiokanos A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Tsiokanos%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Yfanti C (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Yfanti%20C%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Paschalis V (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Paschalis%20V%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Koutedakis Y (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Koutedakis%20Y%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Nosaka K (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Nosaka%20K%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Department of Physical Education and Sport Science, University of Thessaly, Karies, Trikala, Greece. ajamurt@pe.uth.gr
Many exercise models have demonstrated associations between eccentric muscle actions and muscle damage. However, the magnitude of muscle damage varies among the models. It appears that responses to eccentric exercise are different between leg and arm muscles but this has not been systematically clarified. This study compared leg and arm eccentric exercises of the same relative intensity for indices of muscle damage. Eleven healthy untrained males [Age: 21.2 (1.0) years, Height: 179.4 (3.0) cm, Weight: 78.4 (3.1) kg] performed a sub-maximal eccentric exercise of the knee extensors (LEGS) and the elbow flexors (ARMS), separately. Both LEGS and ARMS consisted of six sets of 12 repetitions with an intensity corresponding to 75% of the predetermined maximal eccentric peak torque (EPT) of each muscle. Range of motion (ROM), delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), serum creatine kinase (CK) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) activities, myoglobin (Mb) concentration, and muscle strength [EPT and isometric peak torque (IPT)] were assessed before and 24, 48, 72, and 96 h following exercise. Significant (P < 0.05) changes in DOMS and ROM were observed up to 96 h after both exercise bouts, and the magnitude of the change was similar between LEGS and ARMS. Increases in CK and Mb were significantly (P < 0.05) larger after ARMS than LEGS at 72 and 96 h post-exercise. EPT and IPT were significantly (P < 0.05) lower than the baseline up to 96 h post-exercise for ARMS but were fully recovered by 96 h post-exercise for LEGS. Decreases in muscle strength were significantly (p < 0.05) larger following ARMS than LEGS at 48, 72, and 96 h post-exercise for EPT, and from 24 h to 96 h post-exercise for IPT. These results suggest that the magnitude of muscle damage is greater and the recovery of muscle function was slower after eccentric exercise of arm elbow flexors than the knee extensors.
PMID: 16007451 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Youngguns
10-13-2009, 01:18 PM
Being sore the next day is not an accurate way of measuring the effectiveness of your workout. I myself don't get sore shoulders no matter what I do, however I have learned that if I overdo my shoulders with volume/intensity/weight they tell me in their way that they're fucked by the "click" that I will get by the next day.

Measure the effectiveness of your workout by keeping a log of workouts ie personal bests in weight lifted/reps used for a weight. When the parameters that your measuring stall- which they will, mix up the workout by changing order of exercises/or split, using different techniques ie pre-exhauset, giant sets, rest/pause.
I disagree this is the best way. I always have my workouts set up the same, that way you can measure progress exact. If you are somehow increasing the overall load while keeping the same intensity, YOU WILL GROW PLENTY. The whole "trick" your muscles term drives me up the wall, your muscles need "progressive overload" not a magic show.

no problem, ub.

some evidence or measures of exercise induced muscle damage exist including histological, biochemical, and functional. most of us care about functional evidence so i will speak to this.

functional outcomes inherently have limitations because they are indirect measures. but, in the gym or clinic they are all we have. strength loss is a reliable and valid indicator for muscle damage. as is the predictable recovery of the strenth loss. 30 to 50 percent reductions in strength can be measeure post exercise for moderately intense strength programs. and up to 5 to 7 days of recovery.

other indirect measures include low frequency fatigue, neurological symptoms, range of motion or stiffness, swelling, and of course doms. i dont recemmend these as reliable indicators.

you migt observe that these are just examples of part of the story to muscle hypertrophy. adaption is necessary. not just muscle damage or doms.

doms does not cause growth. nor is it an indicator of growth.

and doms does not mean you had a great workout.
It does and it doesn't. I've been working out for 4 years I'm I'm sore after every single workout. If you're staying between 6-20 reps, under 20 sets per bodypart, and under a minute resting time etc etc, in other words, if you're working out within the necessary guidelines and push to new levels, you will get sore.

Liquidswords
11-06-2009, 06:43 AM
I disagree this is the best way. I always have my workouts set up the same, that way you can measure progress exact. If you are somehow increasing the overall load while keeping the same intensity, YOU WILL GROW PLENTY. The whole "trick" your muscles term drives me up the wall, your muscles need "progressive overload" not a magic show.


Fuckin rights. I always keep the same routine and make gains. i cant stand people who believe you have to trick your body. the fuck kinda crackhead logic is that anyway.