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blu2xtreme
10-08-2009, 02:25 PM
Still new here - so be nice if it's a dumb question - Gman made me do it:)

I want to put more muscle on - don't want the scale going up much ( yes I am a girl - I hate scales )
What is the best approach to getting muscle gains in this situation:
Female - Short 5'2 124lbs - not wanting to put on more then 10 lbs to put on muscle then back to low 120's
Been doing a clean eating lean bulk but read about Daves diet that uses a women's off season diet for 8 weeks then 4 weeks keto then back again.
Any ideas on what has worked.

gman
10-08-2009, 02:55 PM
My take on bulking (which is all heresay, since I have never tried it), is that you start off eating 200 cal a day above maintenance, see where you are in 2-3 weeks. If you are up more than a lb or two, you slide the calories down a little...if you are not up at all, you add 200 more calories a day. Repeat as necessary.

See, I told you I don't know much about it.

musclemilf
10-08-2009, 03:01 PM
Hi blu - What's your time horizon? If you're a natty, just starting out, 10lbs of muscle in a short time period is very difficult even with proper training and diet. I've been "offseason" for 18 years (I've lifting naturally and heavy for a long time!) and am preparing for my first natural show and I look small at 5'5" 137 ~16% BF. In fact, my I really look like a figure competitor...not that's a bad thing!

I'd love to hear sassy or the other competitive ladies weigh in on this subject.

blu2xtreme
10-08-2009, 03:12 PM
Hi blu - What's your time horizon? If you're a natty, just starting out, 10lbs of muscle in a short time period is very difficult even with proper training and diet. I've been "offseason" for 18 years (I've lifting naturally and heavy for a long time!) and am preparing for my first natural show and I look small at 5'5" 137 ~16% BF. In fact, my I really look like a figure competitor...not that's a bad thing!

I'd love to hear sassy or the other competitive ladies weigh in on this subject.

No time frame ... no plans to compete just love training and want to be the best I can. Not thinking 10 lbs of muscle - just that I put weight on easily - that's my concern and why I keep my diet so lean with cardio 6 days a week. I had great newbie muscle gains this year and want more:)

freebirdmac
10-08-2009, 04:14 PM
I'm another natty 3 months into a year long (at least!) clean bulk. I'm pretty confident where my maintenance cals are and up the overall cals by 100 but I keep flexible. If it's time to make a major change in my routine or my body starts complaining, I'll go up higher. It may be a longer term increase or a short day or two calorie load. Ladies who have more muscle mass seem to be able to withstand larger calorie surpluses. If I have down time due to injury, illness, vacation, etc. I'll drop the cals a bit.

I'm not a fan of keto unless you have a medical condition that calls for it. I do keep my carbs to around 30% but not because I gain fat at higher levels, but because I bloat. And I don't like it :) For that reason I could see some using keto for contest prep, but not bulking. I've seen a lot of women (and men) jump on keto without really understanding why they are bloating or even understanding that they are bloating and not gaining fat. Some times it's a food intolerance. But many people would rather turn a blind eye and not admit a food they like may be the problem. Yet they'll turn to keto where they can't eat that food :dunno: But to each his own. Whatever works!

I only do cardio 1-2x week. My goals are to keep the heart rate up high and improve VO2 during this time. Not to try and do intervals or HIIT to burn calories. Doing as much cardio as you are, you could be impeding muscle gains.

The scale shouldn't go up very fast. We're lucky to gain 5 pounds of dry muscle mass a year. Add in some water and you might be looking at an average of a pound a month of scale weight. Probably less. I keep an eye on my waist measurement. That gives me clues to fat gains. You just have to take into consideration any muscle gains in that area and bloating.

gman
10-08-2009, 04:25 PM
You saw me, Blu, 18 months on TRT and only put on 4 lbs of lbm. A lb of muscle is a shitload, especially on a small person such as you or Pam. Imagine a lb of steak put under your skin.

You have to have to be patient and realistic.

blu2xtreme
10-08-2009, 04:35 PM
I'm another natty 3 months into a year long (at least!) clean bulk. I'm pretty confident where my maintenance cals are and up the overall cals by 100 but I keep flexible. If it's time to make a major change in my routine or my body starts complaining, I'll go up higher. It may be a longer term increase or a short day or two calorie load. Ladies who have more muscle mass seem to be able to withstand larger calorie surpluses. If I have down time due to injury, illness, vacation, etc. I'll drop the cals a bit.

I'm not a fan of keto unless you have a medical condition that calls for it. I do keep my carbs to around 30% but not because I gain fat at higher levels, but because I bloat. And I don't like it :) For that reason I could see some using keto for contest prep, but not bulking. I've seen a lot of women (and men) jump on keto without really understanding why they are bloating or even understanding that they are bloating and not gaining fat. Some times it's a food intolerance. But many people would rather turn a blind eye and not admit a food they like may be the problem. Yet they'll turn to keto where they can't eat that food :dunno: But to each his own. Whatever works!

I only do cardio 1-2x week. My goals are to keep the heart rate up high and improve VO2 during this time. Not to try and do intervals or HIIT to burn calories. Doing as much cardio as you are, you could be impeding muscle gains.

The scale shouldn't go up very fast. We're lucky to gain 5 pounds of dry muscle mass a year. Add in some water and you might be looking at an average of a pound a month of scale weight. Probably less. I keep an eye on my waist measurement. That gives me clues to fat gains. You just have to take into consideration any muscle gains in that area and bloating.
Great info thanks... I was at 50 P/30F/20carbs so pretty low on carbs - I lost 8 lbs over the last 4 months but dont feel great about it - have to many people saying - I looked better a few months ago. Just taking it all in then will make a plan:)

gman
10-08-2009, 04:36 PM
Be careful, blu... my mom tells me I look horrible now because I am too "thin." Just make sure they are not bullshitting you.

esplendido
10-08-2009, 05:17 PM
"Lean" is relative. You cannot put on muscle while either losing fat or keeping calorie/expense neutral without chemical enhancement. Women building naturally can hope for 3-4 lbs of muscle per year at first, then after a couple of years, 1-3lbs annually. The variables for women, even closely monitoring diet and training are stress and menstral cycle....and stress (did I mention stress?). Maintaining composition at about 10-15lbs over competition weight is reasonable for bulking. You need carbs to build muscle with. You need bodyfat for proper hormone regulation.

Gaining a pound or two per month while bulking (for women) is ideal, assuming a women starts lean. Begin by eating 200g good carbs per day and see how you gain over the first two weeks. Adjust the carbs up or down 50g a time to hit the ideal growth weight. It can take a couple of months to find the sweet spot.

Train heavy. No more than 8-10 reps per set, max 12 sets per bodypart. Train every bodypart once a week. Do NO cardio while bulking....use your diet as the accelerator/brake.

Baldiewonkanobi
10-08-2009, 05:50 PM
I never tried a "lean bulk" in the past...always bulking up 30-40 pounds off season a la Lee Priest. I never got it right Natural and only nailed it once enhansed. 260++ down to 235 on stage.
This time around after 12 years non competetive and at a soft 233 on 11-28-2008 (on a small frame) I decided to make my last go of it lean. I was lean in July this summer at the Nationals. 195ish. I did Keto right up to last week. My plane was to stay lean for a year to let the cogger skin tighten up then on Dec.1, 2009 (I'm 7 weeks early) break Keto and add 50 gm. carbs slowly. Continuing to add carbs without stretching my belly skin and try to add muscle Naturaly. If all fails after 6 weeks then around Jan 15th think about very modest enhansement. I have watched both men and women grow INTO their contest physique. Thats my goal.

Baldie

blu2xtreme
10-08-2009, 06:22 PM
"Lean" is relative. You cannot put on muscle while either losing fat or keeping calorie/expense neutral without chemical enhancement. Women building naturally can hope for 3-4 lbs of muscle per year at first, then after a couple of years, 1-3lbs annually. The variables for women, even closely monitoring diet and training are stress and menstral cycle....and stress (did I mention stress?). Maintaining composition at about 10-15lbs over competition weight is reasonable for bulking. You need carbs to build muscle with. You need bodyfat for proper hormone regulation.

Gaining a pound or two per month while bulking (for women) is ideal, assuming a women starts lean. Begin by eating 200g good carbs per day and see how you gain over the first two weeks. Adjust the carbs up or down 50g a time to hit the ideal growth weight. It can take a couple of months to find the sweet spot.

Train heavy. No more than 8-10 reps per set, max 12 sets per bodypart. Train every bodypart once a week. Do NO cardio while bulking....use your diet as the accelerator/brake.

Well I am 7 months into lifting heavy - so maybe I can squeeze a little more newbie muscle in before it gets harder. Stress - whats that - lucky for me no menstrual cycle- hysterectomy. 200 carbs a day - will be rough, already do max 8-10 so good on that. No Cardio now that is the kicker for me - have not missed more the 2 days in a row with out cardio in the last 2 years.

D_T
10-08-2009, 06:43 PM
David Henry used to combine bulk & cut cycles together like so:

Weeks 1 - 4: Gain
Week 5: Hardening
Weeks 6 - 8: Gain
Weeks 9 - 10: Hardening
Weeks 11 -12: Gain
Weeks 13 -15: Hardening

During the Gain weeks he would eat for mass. During the Hardening weeks he would eat like he was on a contest diet maybe 7-8 weeks out. I'm going to try it in reverse.

blu2xtreme
10-08-2009, 07:01 PM
David Henry used to combine bulk & cut cycles together like so:

Weeks 1 - 4: Gain
Week 5: Hardening
Weeks 6 - 8: Gain
Weeks 9 - 10: Hardening
Weeks 11 -12: Gain
Weeks 13 -15: Hardening

During the Gain weeks he would eat for mass. During the Hardening weeks he would eat like he was on a contest diet maybe 7-8 weeks out. I'm going to try it in reverse.

I have been reading so much that I can't find it but I remember reading about a 8 week on 4 week off bulk deal but can't find it again.

D_T
10-09-2009, 12:53 AM
Here was Dave's actual plan:

Dave Henry's Calorie Cycle

Diet Cycle:
Weeks 1 - 4: Gain
Week 5: Hardening
Weeks 6 - 8: Gain
Weeks 9 - 10: Hardening
Weeks 11 -12: Gain
Weeks 13 -15: Hardening


GAIN CYCLE

Meal #1
1 whole egg + 5 egg whites
5 oz. lean beef or other meat
or 1 cup cottage cheese 1/2 cup oatmeal before cooking
Or if you're in a big hurry:
mix in a blender - 3 scoops Ultra Size
3 TBS Heavy Cream, 18 oz water
1/3 scoop oatmeal

Meal #2 (Ultra Size Mix)
3 Scoops Ultra Size, 4 TBS heavy cream
18 oz. water (or less water as a pudding)
(Optional: 4 frozen strawberries or ½ banana)
Or 1 1/2 cups cottage cheese,
1 can tuna or 6 oz other meat,
1 piece fruit (not banana)

Meal #3
7 oz. chicken (before cooking) or 9 oz can tuna
6 oz. sweet potato, red potato or 1 cup cooked rice
2 cups vegetables or salad w/ 2 TBS. Low Cal Dressing

Meal #4 (Ultra Size Mix)
3 Scoops Ultra Size
4 TBS heavy cream, 18 oz. water (or less water as a pudding)
(Optional: 4 frozen strawberries or ½ banana)
An interesting option is to mix and put n the freezer for about 3 hours
you have a frozen treat that tastes awesome
or.....
1 can tuna, 1 cup cottage cheese,
½ cup pineapple or ½ cantaloupe

Meal #5
8 oz. sirloin steak or other meat
2 cups vegetables or large salad

Meal #6 (Ultra Size Crepes)
2 scoops Ultra Size, 1 whole egg, 3 Egg Whites
¼ - ½ cup water for consistency (blend then pour in skillet and cook like pancakes).
Top with Simply Fruit Jelly and or Cool Whip


HARDENING CYCLE

Meal #1
1 whole egg + 4 egg whites
3 oz. lean beef or other meat
or 3/4 cup cottage cheese 1/2 cup oatmeal before cooking
Or if you're in a big hurry:
mix in a blender - 2 scoops Ultra Size
3 TBS Heavy Cream, 18 oz water
1/3 scoop oatmeal

Meal #2 (Ultra Size Mix)
2 Scoops Ultra Size, 3 TBS heavy cream
18 oz. water (or less water as a pudding)
(Optional: 4 frozen strawberries or ½ banana)
Or 1 cup cottage cheese,
1 can tuna or 4 oz other meat,

Meal #3
6 oz. chicken (before cooking) or 9 oz can tuna
5 oz. sweet potato, red potato or 1 cup cooked rice
2 cups vegetables or salad w/ 2 TBS. Low Cal Dressing

Meal #4 (Ultra Size Mix)
2 Scoops Ultra Size
3 TBS heavy cream, 18 oz. water (or less water as a pudding)
(Optional: 4 frozen strawberries or ½ banana)
An interesting option is to mix and put n the freezer for about 3 hours
you have a frozen treat that tastes awesome
or....
1 can tuna, 1 cup cottage cheese,
½ cup pineapple or ½ cantaloupe

Meal #5 (Ultra Size Crepes)
2 scoops Ultra Size, 1 whole egg, 2 Egg Whites
¼ - ½ cup water for consistency (blend then pour in skillet and cook like pancakes).
Top with Simply Fruit Jelly and or Cool Whip

esplendido
10-09-2009, 01:15 AM
Well I am 7 months into lifting heavy - so maybe I can squeeze a little more newbie muscle in before it gets harder. Stress - whats that - lucky for me no menstrual cycle- hysterectomy. 200 carbs a day - will be rough, already do max 8-10 so good on that. No Cardio now that is the kicker for me - have not missed more the 2 days in a row with out cardio in the last 2 years.

Start with 100g carbs/day and see where that leads you. Adjust by 50g/day up or down, whichever is needed.

blu2xtreme
10-09-2009, 01:22 AM
Start with 100g carbs/day and see where that leads you. Adjust by 50g/day up or down, whichever is needed.

Ok will start with that...woo hoo - oatmeal again - missed it
Will have to wean myself off the cardio ...
Will do full inclines no running for now

Oldsuperman
10-09-2009, 03:13 AM
BULKING AND CUTTING FOR A COMPETITION (or not! ;) ) (http://blog.bodybuilding.com/oldsuperman/2009/04/09/bulking-and-cutting-for-a-competition-or-not/):no:


Diet is a funny thing. So many things go into it besides just eating! It affects not only your body, yet your mind and soul! I have to eat a lot of food at about 230 lbs and about 8%BF with 210 LBM to keep and grow muscle. I’m also 55 yrs old and food has changed in flavor. It takes more spices and herbs to taste palatable. I actually have to force food down at times.

I don’t really believe in the “BULKING” concept that many of the bbers and trainers teach these days. I don’t believe it is necessary to “PIG OUT” and get up to 14% or more BF to put on muscle. Sean, my conditioning coach proved that to me last year! And it worked beautifully this year keeping my BF about 8 to 10% ALL YEAR LONG.
You see these “BULKING” guys put on so much fat during training season, then as early as 21 wks out from their comp, start to diet hard and start “CUTTING” if you will, and OF COURSE the body is going to rebel! It wants to keep all those fat cells fed and swole! So then the guys lose valuable muscle during their “CUT CYCLE” starting about 20 wks out!!! WHAT A WASTE!!

While these “BULKING” guys are “CUTTING” at 21 weeks, I’m still training hard putting on muscle, getting better. I believe it is a much more livable way to train and DANG! I LOOK GOOD TOO! It really helps when you look in the mirror and don’t see a fat belly and man boobs from “bulking up”! It just a better way to live.

Last year my family and friends all noticed how calm and together I was getting ready for my comps, compared to the previous years before. And I was getting ready to compete in the biggest show of my life as well!
Well, bottom line is, when you’re already close to your ideal prep, it only takes about 6 to 8 wks of tweaking to get ready. I’m not saying it isn’t tough! HECK YEA it’s tough. Yet, easier and more sane then the “heavy bulk” and “cut” way.

The concept my coach says, is once you get to a steady BF and LBM ratio, you can live a 90 // 10% clean eating life style for bbing. What that means is, you eat 90% clean and if your at a birthday party you still eat clean for most of it, yet you have a moderate piece of cake and ice cream. If you out with the guys Monday night, you eat clean, yet have 2 pieces of pizza. You have your cheat meals on your birthday, fathers day, Easter etc. I had a cheat meal on Dads day last year just weeks before Nationals, YET I WAS LEAN! So it had no affect on my.

It’s all about having a plan and sticking to it. Once get there to your ideal, and you maintain it for a few years, you learn what works and what doesn’t. We are not all the same, yet it never ceases to amaze me how the fat peeps are always the exception. I know all about it, as I was a fatty too with all the excuses! So …. don’t BS me! :no:

bigdaddyd
10-18-2009, 01:40 PM
Hey Blu....you have a lot of knowledge in this thread already!!

Pay attention to them and you will succeed!!

blu2xtreme
10-18-2009, 01:45 PM
Hey Blu....you have a lot of knowledge in this thread already!!

Pay attention to them and you will succeed!!

Thanks I have been getting a lot of help from everyone
this is a great group:yep:

juggernaut
10-25-2009, 07:26 PM
Great info thanks... I was at 50 P/30F/20carbs so pretty low on carbs - I lost 8 lbs over the last 4 months but dont feel great about it - have to many people saying - I looked better a few months ago. Just taking it all in then will make a plan:)
Dont understand why your fats are so low. Any reason?

D_T
10-26-2009, 01:57 PM
I don't really think 30% fat is low, unless you're doing zero carb.

joedemarco
10-26-2009, 02:21 PM
The main thing to keep in mind when bulking is just what the name implies...."bulking". We don't want to get fat when we bulk, however it is not the time of year to be concerned with maintaining a chiseled midsection. Try to get the most of your bulking training as you can and then worry about definition when it is time to cut.

I'm bulking right now and have my weight up into the low 180's (which is alot for me at 5'4"). As you can see, I am far from contest condition. However, I feel that I am making quality gains and still have some remnants of abs...lol.

juggernaut
10-26-2009, 06:14 PM
I believe (I might be wrong) that she was referring to 20g. If not, I stand corrected.

blu2xtreme
10-26-2009, 08:46 PM
was talking about %'s ...still trying to figure it all out
want more muscle with out adding fat - every women's dream ( well maybe not every women)

bigdaddyd
10-28-2009, 11:35 AM
I keep visiting you, but your not posting....whatup with that?

blu2xtreme
10-28-2009, 12:36 PM
I keep visiting you, but your not posting....whatup with that?

Thanks for visiting bigdaddy
I should start a journal - Blu bulks for some big ones :p
what do you think?

gman
10-28-2009, 01:41 PM
big whats?

guns?

or do we really want to know?

bigdaddyd
10-28-2009, 02:40 PM
Thanks for visiting bigdaddy
I should start a journal - Blu bulks for some big ones :p
what do you think?

Well now that all depends on what BIG ONES are exactly and if they will be shown!!

bodyhard
10-28-2009, 04:12 PM
Thanks for visiting bigdaddy
I should start a journal - Blu bulks for some big ones :p
what do you think?

I will follow :yep::yep::yep::yep:

OK OK I will stand aside I know you are trying to be nice...

blu2xtreme
10-28-2009, 07:08 PM
I will follow :yep::yep::yep::yep:

OK OK I will stand aside I know you are trying to be nice...

Everyones welcome - I know you can behave :yep:


big whats?

guns?

or do we really want to know?
Some of you want to know;)


Well now that all depends on what BIG ONES are exactly and if they will be shown!!
So what do you mean by that:confused: :p

bigdaddyd
10-28-2009, 07:54 PM
you know darn well what mean....remember you are talking about old men here!

blu2xtreme
10-28-2009, 09:11 PM
you know darn well what mean....remember you are talking about old men here!

Your all in your prime :p
Stick around and you will find out what I meant;)

blu2xtreme
10-28-2009, 09:32 PM
Need a journal to keep me focused on what I want - not home tonight so I will get one up tomorrow night - need you guys to help me on this. :yep:

freebirdmac
10-28-2009, 09:45 PM
I think a journal is a great idea! I'll post up my 6 month results late Dec/early Jan. There won't be massive changes, but something should show with little body fat changes.

blu2xtreme
10-28-2009, 09:50 PM
I think a journal is a great idea! I'll post up my 6 month results late Dec/early Jan. There won't be massive changes, but something should show with little body fat changes.

Cool - I figure if I really buckle down and I have ...
I will do my own personal challenge until the Arnold and see how much I can improve.