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TPT
10-26-2009, 11:16 AM
most of us use some variation in latpulldowns during our back workouts. changing our bodymechanics we assume different muscles are stressed in different ways. what might happen during variations of lat pulldowns?

sperndei et al. (2009) studied the emg activity of three lat pulldown exercises: behind the neck, front of the neck, and a v-bar. the v-bar was a atypical bar that allowed greater range of motion than the behind the neck pull because it was shaped as a v. emg activation of pec major, lat dorsi, posterior delt, and biceps brachii were measured.

pecs showed significantly greater activation for the front lat pulls than the others. this is interesting because we do not think of front lat pulls as a chest exercise. but, lets talk this through. in the front lat pull our shoulders are in the horizontal plane of adduction (i.e., in front) and we extend (pull down). pecs should be activated similar to when we perform cable flyes for lower pecs. also, pecs were activated more during the eccentric phase during the front or v-bar pulls.

interestingly, no differences of activation were found for the lats between all three exercies. this calls into question whether we are affecting lats any differently with the exerices. but, of course we may not perform a specific lat pulldown just to stress lats.

posterior delts were activatied greater for the behind the neck exercise in concentric phase and eccentric phase.

biceps brachii activated the least during the behind the neck pulls.

i do observe that people still perform behind the neck pulls and i will address them later.


Electromyographic Analysis of Three Different Types of Lat Pull-Down (http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Fulltext/2009/10000/Electromyographic_Analysis_of_Three_Different.17.a spx)
Sperandei, Sandro; Barros, Marcos A P; Silveira-Júnior, Paulo C S; Oliveira, Carlos G
The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 23(7):2033-2038, October 2009.
doi: 10.1519/JSC.0b013e3181b8d30a

Abstract:

Sperandei, S, Barros, MAP, Silveira-Junior, PCS, and Oliveira, CG. Electromyographic analysis of three different types of lat pull-down. J Strength Cond Res 23(7): 2033-2038, 2009-The purpose of this work was to evaluate the activity of the primary motor muscles during the performance of 3 lat pull-down techniques through surface electromyography (EMG). Twenty-four trained adult men performed 5 repetitions of behind-the-neck (BNL), front-of-the-neck (FNL), and V-bar exercises at 80% of 1 repetition maximum. For each technique, the root mean square from the EMG signal was registered from the pectoralis major (PM), latissimus dorsi (LD), posterior deltoid (PD), and biceps brachii (BB) and further normalized in respect to that which presented the highest value of all the techniques. A series of two-way repeated measures analysis of variance was used to compare the results, with Tukey-Kramer as the post hoc test and [alpha] = 0.05. During the concentric phase, PM value showed the FNL to be significantly higher than V-bar/BNL and V-bar higher than BNL. During the eccentric phase, FNL/V-bar was higher than BNL. For LD, there was no difference between techniques. PD presented BNL higher than FNL/V-bar and FNL higher than V-bar in the concentric phase and BNL higher than V-bar in the eccentric phase. BB exhibited BNL higher than V-bar/FNL and V-bar higher than FNL in both concentric and eccentric phases. Considering the main objectives of lat pull-down, we concluded that FNL is the better choice, whereas BNL is not a good lat pull-down technique and should be avoided. V-bar could be used as an alternative.
(C) 2009 National Strength and Conditioning Association

Go to Full Text of this Article (http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Fulltext/2009/10000/Electromyographic_Analysis_of_Three_Different.17.a spx)

Frosty
10-26-2009, 06:59 PM
Yes, but how much is my flexor digitorum superficialis recruited with the different grips???

Inquiring minds want to know!

TPT
10-27-2009, 01:43 PM
Yes, but how much is my flexor digitorum superficialis recruited with the different grips???

Inquiring minds want to know!


you might stress the muscle more if you pronate because the fibers run from its distal attachment on the radial side to the proximal attachment on the ulna side and the medial epicondyle of the humerus.

were you serious about the question? : )

Frosty
10-27-2009, 04:11 PM
you might stress the muscle more if you pronate because the fibers run from its distal attachment on the radial side to the proximal attachment on the ulna side and the medial epicondyle of the humerus.

were you serious about the question? : )

Thanks man, you're awesome.

My flexor digitorum superficialis' have always been a lagging body part :(


But as far as my back, I gotta say I "feel" the most with a supinated medium grip keeping my back arched and having the bar touch my chest. Any reason for that?

Tatyana
10-27-2009, 04:19 PM
So basically, there is no difference in lat development, but I bet that behind the neck has a much higher risk of shoulder injury.

TPT
10-27-2009, 05:47 PM
Thanks man, you're awesome.

My flexor digitorum superficialis' have always been a lagging body part :(


But as far as my back, I gotta say I "feel" the most with a supinated medium grip keeping my back arched and having the bar touch my chest. Any reason for that?


yeah. i saw that your wrist flexors were lagging. : )

the way you "feel" your back is interesting and has an apparent reason. the actions of lats are obviously to extend and adduct the arms. hence, the pulldown (or pullup). but, the lats also internally rotate the arms via the attachment on the humerus.

thus, if say you had tight lats you might see a posture of rounded foward shoulders with the thumbs pointed inward. we see this with lots of weight trainers. that is an example of shoulder (humeral) internal rotation.

supination is a component motion of external rotation. you notice that when we supinate we externally rotate and adduct. when in this position you certaining lengthen the lats more.

also, keep in mind that the lats attach to the thoracolumbar fasica of your lumbar and sacral region. so youll "feel" a different stress if you dont arch are back because youd further lengthen the lats.

TPT
10-27-2009, 05:59 PM
So basically, there is no difference in lat development, but I bet that behind the neck has a much higher risk of shoulder injury.


exactly, tat. well, more specifically there are no differences in lat activity between pulldown exercises.

so then we have to ask, "why are people doing behind the neck exercises for lats?" people usually respond by suggesting that "it hits different parts of the back."

positioning our shoulders behind our necks does put us at greater risk. espeically with a friggin load. the shoulderm is protected by a capsule of connective tissue for stability of the joint. behind the neck postions puts the joint at end range and creates forces onto the capsule and muscles such as the rotor cuff muscles. over time and abnormal repititive forces, the capsule reduces its properties of maintaining stability of the joint.

it just so happens that behind the neck movements stress the anterior capsule of the glenohumeral joint.

now imagine large loads going down onto our shoulders during behind the neck shoulder presses with full range of motion. : )

Tatyana
10-27-2009, 06:05 PM
exactly, tat. well, more specifically there are no differences in lat activity between pulldown exercises.

so then we have to ask, "why are people doing behind the neck exercises for lats?" people usually respond by suggesting that "it hits different parts of the back."

positioning our shoulders behind our necks does put us at greater risk. espeically with a friggin load. the shoulderm is protected by a capsule of connective tissue for stability of the joint. behind the neck postions puts the joint at end range and creates forces onto the capsule and muscles such as the rotor cuff muscles. over time and abnormal repititive forces, the capsule reduces its properties of maintaining stability of the joint.

it just so happens that behind the neck movements stress the anterior capsule of the glenohumeral joint.

now imagine large loads going down onto our shoulders during behind the neck shoulder presses with full range of motion. : )


It is one of those exercises that when you see someone doing it in the gym, you realise they don't know what they are doing.

street
12-07-2009, 05:23 AM
yes especially when you see ronnie coleman doing them.
This study is regarding the lats .But if you look at trainers whom do the behind the neck exercises you will notice they tend to develop the teres to a greater degree which is a strange phenomenon ,there is something happening at that angle.Hence giving them wider upper lats.

TPT
12-08-2009, 07:23 PM
yes especially when you see ronnie coleman doing them.
This study is regarding the lats .But if you look at trainers whom do the behind the neck exercises you will notice they tend to develop the teres to a greater degree which is a strange phenomenon ,there is something happening at that angle.Hence giving them wider upper lats.


that might because posterior delts are activated most during the variation of behind-the-neck pulldown.

the action of posterior delts include lateral rotation. and teres minor laterally rotates as well.

take a look at the following figure under (posterior) delts and b (behind-the-neck).



http://images.journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Original.00124278-200910000-00017.FF5.jpeg