This is embarrassing... but I need help getting defined! [Archive]

Saki

11-01-2009, 04:36 PM

Hi folks,

Thanks for clicking on my post. I am about to turn 38, 6'2", 205lbs, and despite trying to get leaner for years, I have not had much success. Here are some pics so you can see where I am coming from (no laughing!):
3700537006
I know it will be hard to believe, but I have been training for several years. I usually do a 4-day split, and cardio 2-3 days/week. I typically get between 2500 and 3000 calories/day, but I tend to yo-yo a lot: I eat big and see improvements in the gym, then after about a few months, I start to feel like I am getting fat, so I cut calories, and end up looking smaller, but not leaner.

I don't expect to look like a competitive bodybuilder — although I wouldn't mind ;) — but I want to get lean and tight and I want my abs to pop. I am willing to try anything. Once I get that dialed in, I feel I will be ready to work on adding size. You guys (and gals!) on this board seem to really know your stuff, so I wonder if you would please share your knowledge with me. At the same time, I am embarrassed about how I look now, so please go easy!!

Thanks!

juggernaut

11-01-2009, 04:40 PM

describe your diet and training on a day to day basis; grams only for food if possible.

juggernaut

11-01-2009, 04:41 PM

when's the last time you did a change in your routine?

How does your post workout meal look?

do you have any definitive goals? Just saying you want to "tighten up" and look like a bodybuilder isnt enough.

Bodyfat percentage?

Saki

11-01-2009, 05:01 PM

Thanks for helping me out.

On a good day my diet typically looks something like this (sorry, I only know ounces and cups):

1 – shake (2 scoops protein, 1 banana, 1.5 c milk, 3/4 c oats)
2 – 8 oz protein (chicken, beef, fish, lamb, etc.), 1 c rice
3 – 8 oz protein, veggies
4 – shake (2 scoops protein, 1 cup grapefruit juice), graham crackers
5 – 8 oz protein, 1 c rice, milk

As far as training, I usually do a 3-4 exercises, ~3 sets per exercise, 10-12 reps per set for each bodypart.On my last chest day, for example, I did 3 sets of incline barbell press, 3 sets of dumbbell bench press, 3 sets of hammer strength machine press and 2 sets of cable flies. But I change up the exercises pretty regularly, though, and I will make at least one change every week: for chest, I might do dumbbell inclines (instead of barbell) and barbell bench (instead of dumbell), or change the order around, or swap the last two exercises for something else (like dumbbell flyes, dips, pushups, decline press, etc).

My post workout meal is meal 4 above (I work out in the evenings).

As far as goals, that's the hardest question to answer. I am not sure what is realistic starting out at my age and with my physique. I definitely need to bring up my arms and chest, and I want to have abs. As far as bodyfat percentage, I'm not sure what I am now, so it's hard to say. I would love to stay between 200-210, but get down below 10%, for sure, though. Having abs is crucial for me -- it feel like it is the sign of a real athlete. Sorry, I might not have understood your question correctly. If you need more info, please let me know. And THANKS!!

juggernaut

11-01-2009, 05:14 PM

For training, try this: There's an article on the net by a girl named Marianne Anderson. It's called Baby Got Back. Do that routine. It's amazing how good it is. Try that for eight weeks.
Second, kill the grapefruit juice. Kill all juice haev the real thing when eating fruit. Juice is shit. Stay away from fructose during post recovery. I'd suggest doing an oatmeal & dextrose combo; 1/2 cup oats to three tsp of dextrose. Drop the protein to one scoop at this time. Creatine might be a good idea, along with beta-alanine.
Lastly, setup an account on fitday and provide a public link status. Do this for a full week. This will tell me how many calories you really take in.
Abs are nice, but as a bodybuilder I dont do it all year round. You really cant grow when you have abs, because the main focus is ultimately fat loss. I'd say drop down to 9% bdyfat and start bulking wisely.

Breakfast would be better if you used 3 whole eggs, or 6 egg whites and 1 whole egg. Cancel out the protein shake in the AM.
Also, kill the rice in the last meal. Greens and meat/chicken/fish.
Add in another meal of casein and fat about an hour before bed. I prefer doing 1 cup low carb cottage cheese, 2 tbsp peanut butter and Walden Farms chocolate sauce. It's almost like cheesecake. Or drink a casein shake.

Come back with the fitday work and I will work with you to achieve any goals you might want.

Saki

11-01-2009, 05:28 PM

Awesome! Thanks so much. I forgot to mention that I take creatine and glutamine (5mgs each post workout), but I'll have to find some dextrose.

I also hear what you are saying about the abs, and honestly, I don't feel like I need them all the time, but the thing is I've never had them. If I could get down to the point where I could see them, it would do a lot for my confidence, and then I wouldn't be so afraid to start bulking up.

Well, I now have some homework to do ;)

juggernaut

11-01-2009, 05:34 PM

Glutamine sucks. Save your $.
I understand the need for abs. Trust me. My suggestion for you would be to actually think about doing a contest about 6 months away. Fill out the form and send it back. You have decent size-although I cant tell without seeing the legs, and the OCB runs some really nice venues. Train for it, commit to it, and see what happens. It's a great motivator to see those abs. If you need help with training, go to Joe Franco who released precontest training podcasts for cheap. They'll explain everything you need to do. He's a good friend of mine and he really knows his shit.

juggernaut

11-01-2009, 05:38 PM

J Nutr. (javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'J%20Nutr.'); ) 2008 Oct;138(10):2045S-2049S.
Dosing and efficacy of glutamine supplementation in human exercise and sport training.

Gleeson M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Gleeson%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstract).
School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, Loughborough University, Loughborough LE11 3TU England. [email protected]
Some athletes can have high intakes of l-glutamine because of their high energy and protein intakes and also because they consume protein supplements, protein hydrolysates, and free amino acids. Prolonged exercise and periods of heavy training are associated with a decrease in the plasma glutamine concentration and this has been suggested to be a potential cause of the exercise-induced immune impairment and increased susceptibility to infection in athletes. However, several recent glutamine feeding intervention studies indicate that although the plasma glutamine concentration can be kept constant during and after prolonged strenuous exercise, the glutamine supplementation does not prevent the postexercise changes in several aspects of immune function. Although glutamine is essential for lymphocyte proliferation, the plasma glutamine concentration does not fall sufficiently low after exercise to compromise the rate of proliferation. Acute intakes of glutamine of approximately 20-30 g seem to be without ill effect in healthy adult humans and no harm was reported in 1 study in which athletes consumed 28 g glutamine every day for 14 d. Doses of up to 0.65 g/kg body mass of glutamine (in solution or as a suspension) have been reported to be tolerated by patients and did not result in abnormal plasma ammonia levels. However, the suggested reasons for taking glutamine supplements (support for immune system, increased glycogen synthesis, anticatabolic effect) have received little support from well-controlled scientific studies in healthy, well-nourished humans.

juggernaut

11-01-2009, 05:40 PM

Glutamine supplementation in vitro and in vivo, in exercise and in immunodepression.

Castell L (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Castell%20L%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstract).
Nuffield Department of Anaesthetics, University of Oxford, England. [email protected]
In situations of stress, such as clinical trauma, starvation or prolonged, strenuous exercise, the concentration of glutamine in the blood is decreased, often substantially. In endurance athletes this decrease occurs concomitantly with relatively transient immunodepression. Glutamine is used as a fuel by some cells of the immune system. Provision of glutamine or a glutamine precursor, such as branched chain amino acids, has been seen to have a beneficial effect on gut function, on morbidity and mortality, and on some aspects of immune cell function in clinical studies. It has also been seen to decrease the self-reported incidence of illness in endurance athletes. So far, there is no firm evidence as to precisely which aspect of the immune system is affected by glutamine feeding during the transient immunodepression that occurs after prolonged, strenuous exercise. However, there is increasing evidence that neutrophils may be implicated. Other aspects of glutamine and glutamine supplementation are also addressed.

juggernaut

11-01-2009, 05:40 PM

just saying... :)

Saki

11-01-2009, 05:57 PM

Really?! I am afraid my pictures might be misleading because I don't think I have the size to go on stage. I think my arms aren't even 17".

Here is a pic of my legs:
3702537026

It's hard for me to train legs heavy right now because I herniated a disc in my back about a year ago, but I'm trying to work around it. Anyway, the fact that you would even suggest it is kind of thrilling, though, and to be in that kind of shape would be a dream come true. I will definitely think about it. I just found the Marianne Anderson workout you recommended -- looks good!

freebirdmac

11-01-2009, 06:09 PM

If you want to do keto, then do keto. But losing body fat is about your diet. Cals in versus cals out. Right now your diet is completely unbalanced. You need good fats in there. A minimum of .3 - .5g per pound of body weight. No matter what diet you are on. I'm not a fan of keto and prefer a more balanced 40p/30c/30f approach. You'd like a protein/carb/fat with each meal. Rice is fine, brown rice or quinoa is better. Graham crackers are junk. Veggies like sweet potato and fruits like berries, bananas, and apples are great. Get on a site like fitday and start tracking your diet.

For pre- and post-workout nutrition Pre, During, & Postworkout Nutrition. - Bodybuilding.com Forums

Other nutritional myths Time to Debunk Bodybuilding Nutrition Myths - Bodybuilding.com Forums

Saki

11-01-2009, 06:14 PM

just saying... :)
looks pretty convincing to me.

Saki

11-01-2009, 06:19 PM

Right now your diet is completely unbalanced. You need good fats in there. A minimum of .3 - .5g per pound of body weight. No matter what diet you are on
Thanks for your feedback! When you say it's unbalanced, do you mean because there aren't enough fats? I usually cook the protein in 1–2 tablespoon olive oil, which I didn't list, but it sounds like that's not enough. I tried a high fat/low carb diet once, but I was really tired all the time. If I need to do that at some point, I will, but I am hoping I can get to 8–9% on a moderate carb/low fat diet.

freebirdmac

11-01-2009, 06:41 PM

Thanks for your feedback! When you say it's unbalanced, do you mean because there aren't enough fats? I usually cook the protein in 1–2 tablespoon olive oil, which I didn't list, but it sounds like that's not enough. I tried a high fat/low carb diet once, but I was really tired all the time. If I need to do that at some point, I will, but I am hoping I can get to 8–9% on a moderate carb/low fat diet.

You can get there on a moderate carb diet. Fats are essential for everything, including fat loss. In addition to olive oil use salmon, tuna, nuts, seeds, nut/seed butters, and avocado. You don't want to be too low on both fats and carbs. The key is sticking to your plan. Cheats on the weekend undo many people. As do underestimating portion size. Stick to a plan for a good 4 weeks before changing anything. Use measurements, how clothes fit, and picts for metrics, not the damn scale. You may need occasional higher carb days at 30%c. Your body will usually clue you in via unusual fatigue, cns type aching, or unusual hunger.

Saki

11-01-2009, 06:47 PM

You can get there on a moderate carb diet. Fats are essential for everything, including fat loss. In addition to olive oil use salmon, tuna, nuts, seeds, nut/seed butters, and avocado. You don't want to be too low on both fats and carbs. The key is sticking to your plan. Cheats on the weekend undo many people. As do underestimating portion size. Stick to a plan for a good 4 weeks before changing anything. Use measurements, how clothes fit, and picts for metrics, not the damn scale. You may need occasional higher carb days at 30%c. Your body will usually clue you in via unusual fatigue, cns type aching, or unusual hunger.

Thanks, That makes a lot of sense. I am definitely one of those who cheated on the weekend occassionally , but, funnily (is that a word?) I'll miss the graham crackers the most :byeb:. Still, I guess you've got to do what you've got to do!

DICE

11-01-2009, 07:31 PM

once you diet down once for real, you will really only then understand just how important it really is. Day after day. You need to be committed.It will come together FOR SURE if you do.

AVBG

11-01-2009, 07:41 PM

It's all diet, you've built a decent base with good back development. But your diet is neither mass gaining nor great for cutting up.. It's up to you. Pick one type of diet then go for it. Also don't flip/flop around, be consistent with the diet and make sure you get six meals in. No excuses.

Saki

11-01-2009, 07:51 PM

.... But your diet is neither mass gaining nor great for cutting up....

AVBG, I know you are right about needing to stop being a flip-flopper. I am definitely going to work on that! Regarding the sentence I quoted above, is there anything in particular you see off the bat that you might change to make the diet better for cutting up?

AVBG

11-01-2009, 07:55 PM

AVBG, I know you are right about needing to stop being a flip-flopper. I am definitely going to work on that! Regarding the sentence I quoted above, is there anything in particular you see off the bat that you might change to make the diet better for cutting up?

If you're serious, drop the fruit, grapefruit juice, oats, rice and crackers.

Increase omega 3's

Add in another meal - never diet on less than 6 meals a day, eat between 2.5-3hrs appart.

Saki

11-01-2009, 08:16 PM

freebirdmac

11-01-2009, 08:19 PM

Wow, hadn't thought about adding in another meal, but that might really make it easier to cut out the things you suggest. I thought the oats were a good source of fiber and they really fill me up, though, so I will probably drop them last, if I can...

Thanks for the help!

AVBG is advocating a keto diet. If you want to go that route fine. If you want to stay moderate/low carb oats are great.

Saki

11-01-2009, 08:23 PM

Oh, now I see. I am going to try to stay low/moderate carbs for as long as I can. I really feel better/have more energy with them, and I feel like it is a healthier way to go (although I know that is hotly debated...) It seems like a lot of people feel you need to go keto to get really low bf%, but hopefully, I can get into the high single digits without it. We'll see, I guess.

DICE

11-01-2009, 08:32 PM

You can, keto is sweet for the last few percent though. But if u are not planning on competing just clean it up. Lots of great advice on this thread so far.

juggernaut

11-01-2009, 08:34 PM

AVBG is advocating a keto diet. If you want to go that route fine. If you want to stay moderate/low carb oats are great.I would do what freebird says. If youre not going into a show, go low carb, or carb cycle with a high day and a low day.

juggernaut

11-01-2009, 09:45 PM

sassy69

11-01-2009, 09:59 PM

Can't reiterate enough how important DIET, and CONSISTENT DIET is to get your results. Depending on whatever approach you take, generally you can save a cheat meal for 1/ week and it is good, no issues w/ impacting the diet. But make sure the rest of the week is consistent and on schedule and not full of random cheats. If you have events or whatever where you want to go off the diet / cheat then PLAN AHEAD. Most of us carry food for the whole day w/ us. I never assume I can find the food that I need at some restaurant cuz it usually blows up in my face, so I ALWAYS have all my food w/ me and a couple of back ups like protein bar & bag of almonds if I get stuck. (And no, protein bars are not good for a regular part of a diet - they are for emergencies only IMO.)

Get familiar w/ www.fitday.com so you know how to understand what you're eating. It helps a lot to get a REAL view of your portions and how much you are REALLY eating. Most people over or under eat in reality.

Saki

11-02-2009, 12:37 AM

sassy69

11-02-2009, 01:24 AM

Thank you all for your time, advice and inspiration!

Sassy69, you are definitely on the money about unplanned events tripping me up. I travel a lot (about one week a month), often on short notice, which wreaks havoc with my schedule. I always focus on getting my workouts in while I'm away, but I will have to try to figure out a way to plan out my food options, too.

Come up w/ a plan for food if you know you have to travel. I pack a pile of oatmeal, protein mix & almonds when I have to travel. Peanut butter doesn't make it thru the airport security, but I've even traveled w/ a pile of tuna in pouches. Or else I'll use my per diem to buy stuff at the local grocery store instead of trying to rely on restaurants, etc. It is doable if you plan for the situations you know you have to deal w/.

Sledge

11-02-2009, 06:07 AM

Some great advice from all the people above. IMO it looks like you have a pretty good base their to work from. I could easily believe you have been training 4 years naturally.

But here's what I'd do if I was in your position. You have decided to go the lowish carb rout but not keto, Excellent. You know your long term and short term goals write them down. Now make a diet and training plan write it down and stick to it 100% for 8-12 weeks (decide now how long for). Have some faith in your plan and don't second guess yourself. And be realistic, don't commit to 2 hours cardio a day and an hour resistance training 7 days a week etc etc etc if you know you'll just never fit it into a day/week and still live your life. Same with meals don't commit to steak and eggs for meal 4 if your on a construction site 5 days a week and realistically it's not going to happen. Get the idea. I work away from home so I have 2 plans a work plan and a home plan. But the goals remain the same the diet and training plans just differ based on location.

So your plan might look like this

Short term goal. Loose 1.5lb body fat per week
8 week goal loose 12lb body fat
Long term goal by July 15th 2010 be sub 5% body fat and look like a competitive body builder.

DIET PLAN

WEEK 1

kCals ?
Protien ?
Carbs ?
Fat ?

Meal 1 ?
Meal 2 ?
Meal 3 ?
Meal 4 ?
Meal 5 ?
Meal 6 ?

TRAINING

MON ?
TUES ?
WED ?
THURS ?
FRI ?
SAT ?
SUN ?

Take progress photos in same clothing in same lighting etc on the 15th and 30th each month.

Ok the above is just an example and I know I'm telling you how to suck eggs and it's all pretty basic. but so many people forget if just one aspect of this is missing or you don't set realistic goals and plans then your already behind the 8 ball before you even start.

Oh, and stick to your plan. :)

Saki

11-02-2009, 01:57 PM

Sledge,

Thanks very much for the suggestions! It might sound basic to you, but actually a lot of the ideas on this thread are new to me, and it's always nice to get confirmation that some of the stuff I have been doing is correct.

I am going to have to sit down when I have a little more time to write out a plan like you suggest. You've pretty much got my short term goals down to a tee, but I think the long term goal is probably too ambitious — I'm just not sure I have the size yet to look like a competitive bodybuilder by middle of next year. Still, I like the idea of setting goals.

I like the idea of progress pics 2xs/month. Sassy69 mentioned that it can be hard to chart progress with the scale, so this seems like a good way to go. Also, I can be a bit obsessive, so taking photos every two weeks will hopefully keep me from fixating on where my weight is going every day.

Cheers!

Saki

11-04-2009, 11:27 AM

Hi again,

I have another question for you all:

I have very little appetite in the mornings, but as the day progresses I get hungrier and by night time I am ravenous. My hours are somewhat unusual because many of my clients are overseas, but here is a typical schedule for me:

9:00 wake up
9:30 breakfast (eggs and oats)
12 noon snack (2 scoops protein powder and flax seed)
3 lunch (6 oz chicken and 1 c cooked rice)
5:30 pre-workout snack (I don't always eat this, but when I do it is just some form of protein)
7:30 post-workout (2 scoops protein powder and flax seed)
8:30 dinner (6 oz chicken, 1 c cooked rice, green veggies)
10 starving again! more veggies and maybe more chicken
12 midnight still hungry! protein powder and maybe some almonds
2 AM bed

I am trying to cut calories, but those last two meals make it tough. Since I am not hungry in the morning, could I have breakfast at noon instead of 9:30 and cut out one of the snacks/protein shakes? Or perhaps there is something else I should omit? Any and all suggestions welcome!

Thanks.

Saki

11-04-2009, 12:02 PM

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:04 PM

Good job Saki. I always find that when my clients go on fitday, they're usually shocked at how much they actually do eat. Keep up the good work.

InHonorInMind

11-04-2009, 12:15 PM

This is an excellant thread with A TON of smart and helpful people. LOVE all the advice given so far! Spot on! I think you have an excellant base Saki, with your title I was prepared for far worse! Diet is one of my hardest downfalls...always trips me up. . . like Sassy said, consistancy is key, make a plan, and GO FOR IT! I'll be checking back on this thread for some more great info and progress pics!!!! =)

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:21 PM

can we see your cans?

InHonorInMind

11-04-2009, 12:28 PM

can we see your cans?

Sure!!! It took a while and a lot of hard work, but thanks for asking! :p

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:33 PM

See I was actually referring to your tits. Sorry for the lack of easy to understand communication.

Saki

11-04-2009, 12:35 PM

^ That's amazing! How did you come up this that?! I love the concept, and can only imagine the amount of time that it must have required. ;)

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:36 PM

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn256/gretchenwilley/big_tits.jpg

Saki

11-04-2009, 12:36 PM

Could you guys take a look at my question in post #32 about nighttime cravings? Do you have any recommendations for how to handle that?

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:37 PM

Saki, dont dissapoint me...I'm trying to see the chicks BOOBS, I dont think she understood the first time. So, I have attached a picture for reference...she may only be a visual learner.

TheTransformator

11-04-2009, 12:37 PM

You have a good base...put your mind to it...you can do it!

Saki

11-04-2009, 12:38 PM

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn256/gretchenwilley/big_tits.jpg
^ Also amazing! It must have taken some time to develop those, too. ;)

(sorry I flaked on the first post, but hopefully reposting this pic twice makes up for it! wowzers!)

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:38 PM

Could you guys take a look at my question in post #32 about nighttime cravings? Do you have any recommendations for how to handle that?breast milk or peanut butter (fat) and casein. I prefer cottage cheese, peanut butter and sugar free-carb free chocolate sauce.

freebirdmac

11-04-2009, 12:39 PM

^ Forgot to mention that now that I am keeping a log on fitday, I realize I am eating more than I said in my original post (post #1) all the way at the top. Also, I made a few tweaks based on the advice above (e.g., I cut out the fruit, milk and graham crackers). I think the schedule directly above (post #32) is more accurate.

Since you're using fitday, what do your macros work out to be? How many grams of fat are you getting? Hunger is to be expected while leaning out but should improve with time.

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:40 PM

You have a good base...put your mind to it...you can do it!T, how did you get negged so badly?

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:41 PM

Since you're using fitday, what do your macros work out to be? How many grams of fat are you getting? Hunger is to be expected while leaning out but should improve with time.
I disagree. If he ups his fats to an appropriate level-I go as far as 180g a day, hunger will not be an issue.

Saki

11-04-2009, 12:43 PM

I disagree. If he ups his fats to an appropriate level-I go as far as 180g a day, hunger will not be an issue.

For the past 2 days, I have been getting about 100gs/day.

Since you're using fitday, what do your macros work out to be? How many grams of fat are you getting? Hunger is to be expected while leaning out but should improve with time.

My fat intake is surprisingly higher than I expected. For the past few days, Protein/Carbs/Fat have been approximately 40/30/30. Here is the link to my fitday page: http://fitday.com/fitness/PublicJournals.html?Owner=Sakele

Saki

11-04-2009, 12:45 PM

breast milk or peanut butter (fat) and casein. I prefer cottage cheese, peanut butter and sugar free-carb free chocolate sauce.
Glad to see that is still a diet food! :p

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:46 PM

high in protein bitches!!

InHonorInMind

11-04-2009, 12:47 PM

See I was actually referring to your tits. Sorry for the lack of easy to understand communication.

I understood....I thought you were being funny...so I replied quite witty if I do say so myself! LOL!!!!

^ That's amazing! How did you come up this that?! I love the concept, and can only imagine the amount of time that it must have required. ;)

Google "Cans"...hehehehhe

Could you guys take a look at my question in post #32 about nighttime cravings? Do you have any recommendations for how to handle that?

YEH, BACK TO ON TOPIC, LOL!!!!....I used to have this problem....two things...one night at a time, soon you'll get in the habit...its just that first week of dealing with the hunger, then your stomach will shrink and you'll be ok. Other option, after I eat my last meal (usually around 8pm? ) I take COMATOSE by ALR....then I make/pack my food/gym bag for the next day...by the time I'm done doing that (takes me about 30mins-hour) the Comatose has kicked in and I hop into bed and fall asleep FAST with out laying there thinking about food. From your schedule it looks like you're not getting adequate sleep which can also hinder fat loss/ growth. I'm up at 4am to hit cardio before work....so maby take a sleep aid (I really like Comatose or Lean Dreams by ALR) with your last shake and get your butt to bed!

Saki, dont dissapoint me...I'm trying to see the chicks BOOBS, I dont think she understood the first time. So, I have attached a picture for reference...she may only be a visual learner.

HAHA, YOU DEFINETLY got me to laugh out loud.....but yeh, not gonna happen! Sorry! LOL!!!!

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:48 PM

psshh no fun but repped for being a good sport.

freebirdmac

11-04-2009, 12:50 PM

breast milk or peanut butter (fat) and casein. I prefer cottage cheese, peanut butter and sugar free-carb free chocolate sauce.

If you swap out your rice for a sweet potato you'll have more cals available at the end of the day for juggernaut's suggestion above.

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:52 PM

Saki

11-04-2009, 12:53 PM

Google "Cans"...hehehehhe

very clever!

YEH, BACK TO ON TOPIC, LOL!!!!....I used to have this problem....two things...one night at a time, soon you'll get in the habit...its just that first week of dealing with the hunger, then your stomach will shrink and you'll be ok. Other option, after I eat my last meal (usually around 8pm? ) I take COMATOSE by ALR....then I make/pack my food/gym bag for the next day...by the time I'm done doing that (takes me about 30mins-hour) the Comatose has kicked in and I hop into bed and fall asleep FAST with out laying there thinking about food. From your schedule it looks like you're not getting adequate sleep which can also hinder fat loss/ growth. I'm up at 4am to hit cardio before work....so maby take a sleep aid (I really like Comatose or Lean Dreams by ALR) with your last shake and get your butt to bed!

Ok, so it sounds like I am just being a wuss and need to deal with it for at least the next week. I can suck it up for at least that long, I guess.

Getting enough sleep is definitely a struggle these days. I tried some OTC sleep aids in the past, but they all left me really groggy the next day. Haven't tried Comatose before, but I love the name!

Thanks!

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:54 PM

melatonin

Saki

11-04-2009, 12:57 PM

If you swap out your rice for a sweet potato you'll have more cals available at the end of the day for juggernaut's suggestion above.

Thanks, I'll give that a shot.

I'm not really in favor of adding any carbs at dinner. Just doesnt make any sense if you dont workout at night, and are getting ready for bed in a few hours. I'd rather butter the string beans or possibly use a fattier flavoring/marinade for the meat. Today 12:50 PM
I work out in the evenings, and dinner is my first meal post-workout (not including the protein shake immediately PWO). I thought I read somewhere that you should eat carbs after working out, but maybe not . . .?

melatonin
Tried it. Knocks me out for about 3-4 hours, but then I am wide awake for the rest of the night.

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 12:59 PM

yes you should, but the last meal should consist mainly of fibrous veggies and a meat.

InHonorInMind

11-04-2009, 12:59 PM

very clever!

Ok, so it sounds like I am just being a wuss and need to deal with it for at least the next week. I can suck it up for at least that long, I guess.

Getting enough sleep is definitely a struggle these days. I tried some OTC sleep aids in the past, but they all left me really groggy the next day. Haven't tried Comatose before, but I love the name!

Thanks!

Yup, just gotta push through the first week, you'll get through it! Staying up late is bad on two ends 1) You don't get enough sleep and 2) You end up eating more....

I have tried A LOT of differant sleep aids and feel that Comatose (sleep aid) or Lean Dreams (has sleep aid + fat burner qualities as well) from ALR has worked the best. Melatonin like Juggernaut said works too, but I never really liked the crazy dreams I got when I took that. Everyone is differant, just keep trying new things and find what works best for you!

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 01:00 PM

Just not a gigantic portion. I'd stick with about 20g of complex carbs. Sweet potato would be perfect, or my favorite, oats.

InHonorInMind

11-04-2009, 01:02 PM

yes you should, but the last meal should consist mainly of fibrous veggies and a meat.

I agree with this, especially since you are looking to cut the fat, and how far apart are you doing your PWO meal from dinner? You should have your PWO shake immediately after you train, and then wait 2-2.5 hrs before having dinner....

freebirdmac

11-04-2009, 01:03 PM

I'm not really in favor of adding any carbs at dinner. Just doesnt make any sense if you dont workout at night, and are getting ready for bed in a few hours. I'd rather butter the string beans or possibly use a fattier flavoring/marinade for the meat.

Not all of us are on keto diets or even need them :) Carbs aren't the enemy and there are no witching hours on carb consumption. My favorite late night, gotta eat extra before bed is oatmeal. I don't avoid fruit either. I only avoid dairy as I cannot tolerate milk protein (including whey and casein).

This is why I wanted the op to decide from the start if he wanted to do keto or if he wanted more of a zone type diet.

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 01:04 PM

I never said carbs are the enaemy. I just dont see the usefulness of adding carbs, particularly if you are carb sensitive. I get by very well at 140-160g a day at 240 lbs.

freebirdmac

11-04-2009, 01:16 PM

I never said carbs are the enaemy. I just dont see the usefulness of adding carbs, particularly if you are carb sensitive. I get by very well at 140-160g a day at 240 lbs.

The problem with carb sensitive is most people aren't. What can happen is water retention with carb intake which is mistaken for fat gain (like we can gain 1+ pounds overnight) and screws with people psychologically.

I look at it like this, first plan out your pre- and post-workout shakes and meals. Then distribute your remaining cals over the day striving to eat often and balanced (protein/carb/fat). Don't go too long after getting up before eating, and don't go too long before bed without eating. If you hit your protein (1-1.5g per pound of body weight), fat (0.3 - 9.5g per pound of body weight), and 25g of fiber, then the rest of your cals are made up of whatever macro suits your body. That alone may take some time to figure out. It'll take sticking to a diet for 6-8 weeks before changing it up. And knowing what you're eating. There are some who just can't seem to do anything unless they are on a keto diet, others who can't do anything unless they eat the minimum amount of fat, and a lot of us in the middle.

Saki

11-04-2009, 01:21 PM

[URL="http://forums.rxmuscle.com/member.php?u=13568"]It's ok to have dinner 2-2.5 hours after the PWO shake? That would definitely help a lot because right now I have the shake around 7:30 and dinner at about 8:30. If there's nothing wrong with waiting until 9:30 or 10, that would help because it's around that time that I get hungry. I was worried that I needed to eat within 1-hour after training though. If I wait to have dinner, I would like to move some of the carbs from dinner to the PWO shake. Would it be okay to eat 1/2 cup rice with the shake?

I definitely want to avoid a keto diet if I can -- I really feel I perform better with carbs, and I think in the long run it's healthier. I'm not sure what the best ratio of protein/carbs/fats is on a mod carb/low fat diet, but right now I am shooting for about 250g carbs,100g fats per day.

Saki

11-04-2009, 01:38 PM

The problem with carb sensitive is most people aren't. What can happen is water retention with carb intake which is mistaken for fat gain (like we can gain 1+ pounds overnight) and screws with people psychologically.

I look at it like this, first plan out your pre- and post-workout shakes and meals. Then distribute your remaining cals over the day striving to eat often and balanced (protein/carb/fat). Don't go too long after getting up before eating, and don't go too long before bed without eating. If you hit your protein (1-1.5g per pound of body weight), fat (0.3 - 9.5g per pound of body weight), and 25g of fiber, then the rest of your cals are made up of whatever macro suits your body. That alone may take some time to figure out. It'll take sticking to a diet for 6-8 weeks before changing it up. And knowing what you're eating. There are some who just can't seem to do anything unless they are on a keto diet, others who can't do anything unless they eat the minimum amount of fat, and a lot of us in the middle.

I like this approach because I am generally wary of going too far to any extreme, and this seems more sustainable long term. One question, though— 0.3–9.5g of fat/lb bodyweight seems like a big range. For example, for me that would be anywhere from 61–1947 grams of fat. Should that be .95g?

InHonorInMind

11-04-2009, 01:47 PM

It's ok to have dinner 2-2.5 hours after the PWO shake?

Yes, because even though its your post work out shake, its still a 'meal'...although I believe whole food is better, thats a whole other thread....

Here you go: (Juggernaut...can tweak...as I'm not an expert)

Wake up and eat! (Or do your fasted Cardio, you'll DEFINETLY have an appetite after THAT!)

(9:30am) Meal 1: 6 egg whites + 1 whole Omega Egg + 1/2 Cup Oats
(12:30pm) Meal 2: Whey Protein Isolate Shake + Flax + 1/2 Cup Oats
(3:30pm) Meal 3: 6-8oz Chicken and 1/2 cup cooked brown rice
(7:00pm) Meal 4: (PWO shake) Whey Protein Isolate + 1/4 Cup Oats
(9:00pm) Meal 5: 6-8oz Lean Protein (Chicken, Fish, Turkey Breast) + 1cup Fiberous veggies (green beans, asparagus, broccli)

Also look into a good fiber supplement like Fibrolyze by species nutrition. I heard it taste great, fills you up, and assist in digestion.

freebirdmac

11-04-2009, 01:54 PM

InHonorInMind

11-04-2009, 01:56 PM

I like this approach because I am generally wary of going too far to any extreme, and this seems more sustainable long term. One question, though— 0.3–9.5g of fat/lb bodyweight seems like a big range. For example, for me that would be anywhere from 61–1947 grams of fat. Should that be .95g?

Your Current Weight = 205lbs
For a moderate/low carb diet for your current weight...

Daily Macros:
307g Protein = 1228 cals
205g Carbs = 820 cals
50g Fats = 450 cals

Roughly 2500 cals/day

Adjust as neccessary . . .

Saki

11-04-2009, 01:57 PM

^ I like it, especially spacing out some carbs with every meal.

Thanks again everyone. I'll try to post updates every so often with my progress, but I promise I'll stop bugging you with questions now. :)

Saki

11-04-2009, 01:59 PM

Ha! That nine was supposed to be a zero! 0.3 - 0.5g of fat :D

Bummer, 9.5 would have been a lot easier! (That will teach me to ask for clarification. hee hee!)

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 02:11 PM

Your Current Weight = 205lbs
For a moderate/low carb diet for your current weight...

Daily Macros:
307g Protein = 1228 cals
205g Carbs = 820 cals
50g Fats = 450 cals

Roughly 2500 cals/day

Adjust as neccessary . . . I'd lower the carbs and increase the fat...but that's me. I realize everyone is different, but carbs are not completely necessary for survival. i go down to 40g (AKA UD2.0) Start at 125g of carbs and go to 80g of fat.

freebirdmac

11-04-2009, 02:14 PM

Bummer, 9.5 would have been a lot easier! (That will teach me to ask for clarification. hee hee!)

Those numbers were minimum requirements. Once you hit your minimums for protein/fat/fiber you can go higher on any macro you want. Including fat.

Saki

11-04-2009, 02:17 PM

I'd lower the carbs and increase the fat...but that's me. I realize everyone is different, but carbs are not completely necessary for survival. i go down to 40g (AKA UD2.0) Start at 125g of carbs and go to 80g of fat.

I am going to play around and see what works, but either way, compared to what I am doing now, looks like I need to cut back on both fats and carbs to get to the right total calories. . .

thx

Sledge

11-04-2009, 07:53 PM

Could you guys take a look at my question in post #32 about nighttime cravings? Do you have any recommendations for how to handle that?

Yep, toughen up and live with it :) Your body is lying to you and telling you it's starving. You just have to tough it out. no one said this fat loss thing was easy. If it was everyone would look fit and healthy.
If you just can't get through it then maybe devide a meal and have 7 instead of 6. or spread the same amount of food over 7 meals and have one when you wake up hungry. Or sugar free jello even.

juggernaut

11-04-2009, 08:28 PM

best way to kill a fake hunger feeling is to drink water

Saki

11-04-2009, 09:16 PM

Yep, toughen up and live with it :) Your body is lying to you and telling you it's starving. You just have to tough it out. no one said this fat loss thing was easy. If it was everyone would look fit and healthy.
If you just can't get through it then maybe devide a meal and have 7 instead of 6. or spread the same amount of food over 7 meals and have one when you wake up hungry. Or sugar free jello even.

Is that a challenge? Because I love a challenge (and sugar free jello)! I can tough it out with the best of them.

best way to kill a fake hunger feeling is to drink water

Finally, a fat loss supplement I can afford!