Insulin: From 101 to Hardcore

[zero7288]

Hey Guys,

First off, props to Dave and John. New Site's awesome.

Ok, so I'm pretty well versed w/ AAS, dieting and nutrition, etc. I'm now considering Insulin usage for these 3 reasons
1. Freaky Mass
2. Cheap
3. Legal

Im posting this thread to get other peoples experience w this compound. I know this is prob the most dangerous compound to use, next to DNP, so ANY info is appreciated. I'm already using Anabolics 6th edition to research it, and a few other sites.

Primarily I'm focusing this thread on Proper usage, how NOT to screw yourself up, and effective cycling/ nutrition. Also, if anyone can recommend any lit or books on the subject, thatd be great.

Thanks Guys!!!

[Futurefreak]

REad my thread "Infrequent insulin usage". Maxititer gives very different theories you may want to consider.

[NPCKnight]

I wouldnt base too much on what Max says. Not saying he is wrong but he does have a lot of ideas from 'left field'. Be cautious.

[ANABOLIC1]

The theories that Maxititer speaks of are very popular with European bodybuilders. I've read first hand accounts of people that Maxititier has helped and they all have nothing but good things to say. If you don't understand it or haven't tried it, then I can respect that but out of respect for Maxititer you should keep negative comments to yourself. I know Maxititer's background and history, he is very humble yet his knowledge base touches areas most of us haven't seen.

Are we not here to question proposed applications and perhaps even consider that those presented may be unorthodox?

[thepump]

The theories that Maxititer speaks of are very popular with European bodybuilders. I've read first hand accounts of people that Maxititier has helped and they all have nothing but good things to say. If you don't understand it or haven't tried it, then I can respect that but out of respect for Maxititer you should keep negative comments to yourself. I know Maxititer's background and history, he is very humble yet his knowledge base touches areas most of us haven't seen.

Yea, I would have to agree. Definitley good common ethics.

[BABOON]

It's almost impossible to fuck yourself up with insulin. Everything people(Always non-users) say about it is either completely wrong, or some scare story they got from another forum user(Who has never used it). You have to be a real, real fucking idiot to mess yourself up with it.

Concentrate less on the safety aspect and more on the carb control, otherwise you'll turn into a fat bastard pretty much overnight. It's very sensitive, and it's possible you'll destroy your physique in the short term.

A book isn't needed.

Pick a protocol you like the sound of, and experiment with different carb amounts until you are taking the minimum you can without going hypo. Add your protein to it and avoid fats. Try a new protocol and find the one that best fits in with your lifestyle.

Insulin is impossibly simple to use, and it's non-users who make it harder for everyone by telling you you're going to die/go into a coma/became a diabetic.

I've run approximately 20 cycles of insulin, and the only advice I have is to never run it without GH and a strong androgen.

[RazorRipped]

Insulin 101 for newbie’s by RazorRipped


This post is just a simple guide for first time insulin users to follow in a safe, and effective manner.

The type of insulin I’m talking about is Humalog

I urge you to invest in a glucometer. This will give you a close estimation of where your BG(Blood Glucose) levels are (Safe Zone 70-90,but independent upon each individual).You want to take in adequate amounts of carbs, but not too much. As the excess will be stored as fat. And yes, if you aren’t careful, you can add quite a bit of excess body fat. As you’ll see in my dosing example below, we drop carbs slightly as to not to acquire excess BF.

You need to know the signs of hypoglycemia:
The body's biochemical response to hypoglycemia usually starts when sugars are in the high/mid 60's. At this point, the liver releases its stores and the hormones such as glugagon, cortisol, growth hormone and epinephrine, all increase. In many patients, this process occurs without any clinical symptoms.
While there is some degree of variability among people, most will usually develop symptoms suggestive of hypoglycemia when blood glucose levels are lowered to the mid 50's. The first set of symptoms are called neuro-genic (or sympathetic) because they relate to the nervous system's response to hypoglycemia. People may experience any of the following;
• nervousness,
• sweating,
• intense hunger,
• trembling,
• weakness,
• palpitations, and
• often have trouble speaking
To educated yourself further here’s a link http://www.medicinenet.com/hypoglycemia/article.htm

Never go to sleep while slin is active, nor take hot showers, sauna’s, nor tan.


As you already might know. The basic rule is 10g waxy maize to 1 iu of Insulin. Now the trick is to get in tune with your body so to take advantage of the insulin spike, which allows nutrients to be shuttled to the muscle cells rapidly, doing so without taking in excess carbs which equates to body fat.



Below is a 30 day cycle(which is recommended) for Insulin. I don’t use Insulin on off days from the gym. Some like to use Insulin on off days in the morning to fight off the catabolic state we’re in upon awakening. I feel upon awakening in the morning a shake consisting of Whey/ Dextrose would be sufficient, or better yet, SOLID FOOD, to bring you out of this catabolic state from fasting over an 8 hour period while sleeping.


I’ll use the 5 day training split as an example here. That will give you 20 days “on” slin.



Day 1 : 5 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 2 : 5 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 3 : 5 iu slin/50g Dextrose


Congratulations!! You’ve survived thus far. I assume (hope) you’ve been monitoring your BG levels. You probably have noticed that you are in the higher range using 50g of Dextrose PWO. Now it’s time to drop the carbs slightly. Don’t fret. This should be more than ample amounts (of carbs) to get you through to your PWO meal.



Day 4 : 5 iu slin/40g Dextrose

Day 5 : 5 iu slin/40g Dextrose



At this point you should have a good idea of how you react with Insulin in terms of BG levels vs. carb intake .



Let’s up the dose……



Day 6 : 6 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 7 : 6 iu slin/50g Dextrose

By this point in time you should be feeling good( ie; more confident),but still respectful to Insulin. Let’s test the waters for 3 days to give you the feel of things. By that I mean we’ll drop the carb intake slightly so you can find a comfortable ratio in regards to iu’s vs. carbs per gram.



Day 8 : 6 iu slin/40g Dextrose

Day 9 : 6 iu slin/40g Dextrose

Day 10 : 6 iu slin/40g Dextrose


Now, the above ratio’s are safe and effective. You can stop right here and continue on for the next 10 days at the above doses/ratio’s. Or you can move forward slightly.



Day 11 : 7 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 12 : 7 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 13 : 7 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 14 : 7 iu slin/50g Dextrose

Day 15 : & iu slin/50g Dextrose

If you felt confident with the above protocol. You could experiment on days 14-15 and drop your Dextrose to 40g.If you do so, please monitor your BG levels every 15 minutes or so. And have glucose tabs, or another source of quick carbs handy (like orange juice) to stave off any possible signs of hypoglycemia. Don’t panic should this happen, just drink a glass of orange juice, or similar, and in 10 minutes the symptoms will have subsided.



Ok, on to your final week.



Day 16 : 8 iu slin/60g Dextrose

Day 17 : 8 iu slin/60g Dextrose

Day 18 : 8 iu slin/60g Dextrose

Day 19 : 8 iu slin/60g Dextrose

Day 20 : 8 iu slin/60g Dextrose


Congratulations! You just completed your first cycle/experience with Insulin in a safe an effective manner. I stopped at 8 iu’s, Being that is enough to get your feet wet with the drug. You can experiment later on. This was simply a guide.



One last thing. Guys ask “Which way is better?” To take your Whey/ Dextrose in one shake, or Dextrose first, and whey 15 minutes later”?

Bottom line is, it’s just preference. But I do prefer to take my Dextrose first with creatine, BCAA, Luecine, then 15 minutes later have a whey isolate shake.1.5 hrs later have your PWO meal.


~RR

[zero7288]

That's awesome. Just a few questions:
1. Why Humalog? I was under the impression most used Humalin-R. I was leaning towards Humalin-R due to it being cheap, and available w/o a doctor's note. Do you feel Humalog is worth the extra effort?
2. Do You have to cycle Insulin like you cycle AAS? Because I'm at some pt going to do a 2 month on 2 month off AAS cycle (mass); how could insulin play into that?
3. What is the proper timing between slin injection and PWO? if you did your slin directly after you chugged your pwo, would that be cool?

Love the Advice Razor, as well as every one else. Thx!!

[BIGSNOR]

usually when people use humalog its because its a quicker acting slin, with a shorter active window. This makes it easier to know when its going to spike, and how long it will be active in your system so you know what foods to avoid (fat).....or take in (proteins, carbs, aminos, supps) etc. Because its quicker you can get back to eating normally sooner, than you could with say a humalin R.

Many people like humalin R for its longer active window though. Its all in what your going for.

There are all kinds of different protocols. So i dont feel comfortable just recommending one. You just have to try out a few and see what works best for your situation. Most seem to agree that you dont want to stay on insulin. The newbie way to cycle it would be one month on slin......then take one month off..... Im sure there are more advanced ways to cycle it, thats just the most common and easiest.

[Aaron Singerman]

I personally would love to hear more Max's insulin theories. Especially dealing with Levemir, as I had never even heard of it before. Max, break it down in laymen terms.

[jacshelb]

Just want to throw my experience in here, little as it may be. For starters, Humalog is easily available from Canada- use google search.

If you are sensitive to insulin in the first place, I recommend being very conservative with your doses to start with. Try 1 or 2 IU with 30-40 grams of carbs to see how you feel. Coming off a low carb diet (having only been on carbs a few days before trying insulin for the first time..) I tried using humalog at 2 IU and got sweaty, tired and a little disoriented. Nothing I couldn't handle, but I wouldn't have wanted to use more at that point in time. Later, after being on a higher carb diet for several weeks, 3-5 IU didn't feel bad- obviously because I was a bit more insulin resistant/tolerant from higher carb intake.

I agree with most of what everyone else has said. I would add though, that using insulin only before workouts (Milo's new regimine) is working well in conjunction with anabolics/androgens only, no GH. Using it post workout would make me hold water and "spill over" nearly every time no matter how careful I was. Now I actually look more lean than I did just a week and a half ago. And, I am definitely NOT restricting calories!

[RazorRipped]

There are all kinds of different protocols. So i dont feel comfortable just recommending one. You just have to try out a few and see what works best for your situation. Most seem to agree that you dont want to stay on insulin. The newbie way to cycle it would be one month on slin......then take one month off..... Im sure there are more advanced ways to cycle it, thats just the most common and easiest.

Yep. I just posted the "get you feet wet" type of PWO slin protocol. This certainly isn't any advanced protocol by any means. There are several effective ways to run slin. IMO pre WO is best. But I have a different pre WO protocol than Milo's does becuase my trainee's train far differently than he has his train. When you are doing giant sets out the ass like Milo's has his trainee's do,certainly you'd need more carbs than a person training low volume HIT.

~RR

[Bigluva]

I'm currently running 10iu of humulin r, right after breakfast. Then taking 6iu more 5hrs later.

[Bigsteak]

Yep. I just posted the "get you feet wet" type of PWO slin protocol. This certainly isn't any advanced protocol by any means. There are several effective ways to run slin. IMO pre WO is best. But I have a different pre WO protocol than Milo's does becuase my trainee's train far differently than he has his train. When you are doing giant sets out the ass like Milo's has his trainee's do,certainly you'd need more carbs than a person training low volume HIT.

~RR
RR can you give a brief overview of your pre w/o slin protocol as far as supps and what not not? I understand people pay you but i don't train giant sets so would like to see the difference. Thx in advance.

[Bigsteak]

Yep. I just posted the "get you feet wet" type of PWO slin protocol. This certainly isn't any advanced protocol by any means. There are several effective ways to run slin. IMO pre WO is best. But I have a different pre WO protocol than Milo's does becuase my trainee's train far differently than he has his train. When you are doing giant sets out the ass like Milo's has his trainee's do,certainly you'd need more carbs than a person training low volume HIT.

~RR
forget my 1st post just read your posts in the other slin thread.

[TaylorB]

carbs dont make you fat, especially not on insulin, expecially not on insulin and AAS, and especially not when on insulin aas and during training. what makes you fat with insulin is dietary fat. you can go very very high on carbs with insulin, even training low volume, and you wont put on body fat. just make sure your using 'zero fat' sources of carbs and protein.

[Bigsteak]

carbs dont make you fat, especially not on insulin, expecially not on insulin and AAS, and especially not when on insulin aas and during training. what makes you fat with insulin is dietary fat. you can go very very high on carbs with insulin, even training low volume, and you wont put on body fat. just make sure your using 'zero fat' sources of carbs and protein.
Taylor if taking h-log pre w/o and only consuming carbs before/during and post how long should you avoid fats prior to taking the slin? I like to have my 1st meal pro/fat then my second meal would be pre workout shake and dextrose. Would the fat from the first meal still be active and get stored as fat? Thx for the help.

[BIGSNOR]

big steak, depends on how far your slin shot is away from your first meal. I find that usually if its past two hours or past, since your last fat meal, your fine to take your slin. This also depends on what type of slin your taking, but even if taking a quick slin like humalog, it takes around a half hour, to an hour for the slin to peak and really start kicking....so by that time your about 3 hours out from your fat meal and the fat you had ingested at that meal, will have been digested and dealt with etc.....and have no negative consequences with your slin.

[TaylorB]

Taylor if taking h-log pre w/o and only consuming carbs before/during and post how long should you avoid fats prior to taking the slin? I like to have my 1st meal pro/fat then my second meal would be pre workout shake and dextrose. Would the fat from the first meal still be active and get stored as fat? Thx for the help.
i dont have a clue.

you would need to know the digestion rate and also rate of metabolism of those fats youve eaten.

if i recall correctly, fats take quite a long time to digest and digest slowly over time..


personally when using insulin i avoid fats the night before and train first thing in the morning.... i wake up and drink 60g whey isolate +lecuine +creatine... then 15-30mins later i inject the log.... then i sip on a shake with 30g whey iso + 60dextrose up untill i l;eave for the gym... i start my workout aproximately one hour after i drink my first shake in the morning... which gets the log peaking a few minutes into the workout... during my workout i dirnk 200g dextrose with 60g whey +lecuine+creatine with lemon juice..(lemon juice for alkaline PH)... then post workout illl drink some dextrose +whey iso+ skim milk...

[Bigsteak]

big steak, depends on how far your slin shot is away from your first meal. I find that usually if its past two hours or past, since your last fat meal, your fine to take your slin. This also depends on what type of slin your taking, but even if taking a quick slin like humalog, it takes around a half hour, to an hour for the slin to peak and really start kicking....so by that time your about 3 hours out from your fat meal and the fat you had ingested at that meal, will have been digested and dealt with etc.....and have no negative consequences with your slin.
It's around three hours after my meal containing fats so i think i should be ok, thx for the input Snor.

[Bigsteak]

i dont have a clue.

you would need to know the digestion rate and also rate of metabolism of those fats youve eaten.

if i recall correctly, fats take quite a long time to digest and digest slowly over time..


personally when using insulin i avoid fats the night before and train first thing in the morning.... i wake up and drink 60g whey isolate +lecuine +creatine... then 15-30mins later i inject the log.... then i sip on a shake with 30g whey iso + 60dextrose up untill i l;eave for the gym... i start my workout aproximately one hour after i drink my first shake in the morning... which gets the log peaking a few minutes into the workout... during my workout i dirnk 200g dextrose with 60g whey +lecuine+creatine with lemon juice..(lemon juice for alkaline PH)... then post workout illl drink some dextrose +whey iso+ skim milk...
Wow, so you are in a completely fasted state. Very interesting I will have to try this and see how I feel. Prob is I'm not much of an early morning person but i will suck it up and give it a go! Thx for the reply.

[zero7288]

So Ive been doing alittle more research, and apparently another way to use insulin is with every meal. This is very interesting to me, and I'm curious if any one has any experience with this method. My intent is to obviously bulk, and I agree with MAX that your post workout Insulin spike (with pws) is high already, so using insulin then isnt the prime time to use.

I eat 9 meals a day including my pws, and I was planning to use 2-3 u.i. for 6 of my meals.

Any imput?

[NPCKnight]

It would definitely make it easier to store fat the more you used it. Would have to almost consume no dietary or saturated fats in those meals.
Also I do know that whenever I have seen an insulin and meal protocol like you just described, they are using Humulin, not Humalog. Not 100% sure why. Maybe in hope theres a way to run insulin so that its 'active' throughout most of the day by way of several shots that keep the storage hormone actively working.

[zero7288]

Cool. One Final Question. And i obviously wouldnt do this w any thing other than Humalin, but technically, since it is legal to obtain OTC, can't you just buy it at like CVS or walgreens or something? Has anyone ever done this before? WOuld just like some imput before i walk into a store. Cost?

[Bigsteak]

Cool. One Final Question. And i obviously wouldnt do this w any thing other than Humalin, but technically, since it is legal to obtain OTC, can't you just buy it at like CVS or walgreens or something? Has anyone ever done this before? WOuld just like some imput before i walk into a store. Cost?
go to Walgreen's, they always seem to hassle me at ride aide. Cost is around 40 bucks.

[sizeon]

hows the absorbtion of humalog pwo in a muscle that is seo filled? would it be better to half it subcatanously. i heard using it intraveinously is dangerous, do any pros do it that way?

[bgoo101]

Im a first time user a want to experiment with it during my mass cycle when aas gains start to slow i want to start slin POST workout : i will follow the 101 protocol ?

get back from the gym ill take about 5min and i will take my shake,

Consist 45g protein and then a carb mix and creatine,BCAA's (10g per 1.iu)

And then take the slin after the shake

And then eat 45 mins later 45p-50c


thoughts ?

[bgoo101]

I will follow below starting at 2iu increasing to 7-8iu 3 weeks on ..

How this look , i will folloe to a tee ?

Post workout!

Immediately after Humalog injection - do the following
Injection + 5 minutes - drink shake with 10g glutamine / 10g creatine / 55g dextrose


Injection + 15 minutes - drink shake with 80g of whey protein in water


Injection + 60 - 75 minutes - eat a protein / carb meal with 40-50g of protein, 40-50g of carbs, NO FATS
Avoid fats for 2-3 hours for Humalog IM, 3-4 hours for

Humalog sub-q, 4-5 hours for Humulin-R.
**keep some glucose tablets or other simple carbs on hand for the active window of your insulin. Hypo symptoms can and will hit hard and fast and you will have little time to react. This is the main danger of insulin use. Be ready.***

[killercuda426]

HI i just whanted to throw something out there i keep reading that humalog IS A quicker acting slin, with a shorter active window.My sons on humalog and you have to check your blood sugar in two hour and it last up to 5 hours.I check the paper work on both and it says that humalog peaks at 2 hours but last up to 5 hours.Also i checked the papers on humulin R and its a fast acting up to 3 hours.also and im not telling anybody to do this but when my sons numbers are runing high for a cpl weeks the doc told us to mix the humalog and humulin R half and half it does give him better blood sugar control.One more thing as far as lantus it is very dangerous if you dont use it right you will have trouble. my son takes 28 iu of lantus can go to bed at blood sugars 175 whake up at 90 cple weeks later his body changes and he goes to bed at175 wakes up at 40so very dangerous we have to drop his lantus down to 19iu so if your using it i would buy a meter and be careful and check your numbers all the time because your body constantly changes.i dont know every thing about this but im just throwing out three what we have to deal with thanks

[maxititer]

for bodybuilding would be better to inject lantus at morning with breakfast. Checking morning fasting BG is very good idea while using long acting insulin like lantus or levemir.

[Xfactor]

Good luck trying to bulk on long acting slin, as it kills the hell out of my appetite. Humalog PWO to assist GLUT4 transport to aid glycogenesis at the time it is needed (not all day) is and will always be the preferred method of insulin administration for maximum growth. Very low dose all-day insulins such as metformin are effective for anti-aging purposes however. But its nice to see that Max has found a new home and a following for his psuedo-science mumbo-jumbo. It works well that his English is just bad enough so as to be mostly undecypherable and makes it easy for him to impress newbies and mods who think they know him. If I don't get banned for expressing my opinion right away, feel free to PM me for a few insights on Max's "out of the box" thought processes. Suffice it to say that it to say that I'm a board owner that did not welcome his input.With these comments I should find out whether this board is worth its weight in posting effort. I've found recently that public boards are pretty much a waste of time and prefer the private boards I'm on, however I'm hoping that RX Muscle might be an exception and be "straight talk" friendly. But if someone wants to drop the Ban Bomb, then hello and goodbye all at once.

[Bryan Hildebrand]

hows the absorbtion of humalog pwo in a muscle that is seo filled? would it be better to half it subcatanously. i heard using it intraveinously is dangerous, do any pros do it that way?

ouch....

[maxititer]

I see you missed me ... if I did some thing wrong and created some hard feelings in you please forgive me. You are the men, whom I always respected, but that does matter who you was, what is matter who you are now.

Any way, thanks for pointing out on my english, I working on it, and hope to improve my grammar. I got few CDs made by Longman called Total English, quite good.


Good luck trying to bulk on long acting slin, as it kills the hell out of my appetite. Humalog PWO to assist GLUT4 transport to aid glycogenesis at the time it is needed (not all day) is and will always be the preferred method of insulin administration for maximum growth. Very low dose all-day insulins such as metformin are effective for anti-aging purposes however. But its nice to see that Max has found a new home and a following for his psuedo-science mumbo-jumbo. It works well that his English is just bad enough so as to be mostly undecypherable and makes it easy for him to impress newbies and mods who think they know him. If I don't get banned for expressing my opinion right away, feel free to PM me for a few insights on Max's "out of the box" thought processes. Suffice it to say that it to say that I'm a board owner that did not welcome his input.With these comments I should find out whether this board is worth its weight in posting effort. I've found recently that public boards are pretty much a waste of time and prefer the private boards I'm on, however I'm hoping that RX Muscle might be an exception and be "straight talk" friendly. But if someone wants to drop the Ban Bomb, then hello and goodbye all at once.

[Xfactor]

I see you missed me ... if I did some thing wrong and created some hard feelings in you please forgive me. You are the men, whom I always respected, but that does matter who you was, what is matter who you are now.

Any way, thanks for pointing out on my english, I working on it, and hope to improve my grammar. I got few CDs made by Longman called Total English, quite good.

Your sense of humor and graciousness are certainly a welcome addition to your online persona, and your lack of English skills can quite easily be re-mediated, so good luck.

[Dr Pangloss]

Good luck trying to bulk on long acting slin, as it kills the hell out of my appetite. Humalog PWO to assist GLUT4 transport to aid glycogenesis at the time it is needed (not all day) is and will always be the preferred method of insulin administration for maximum growth. Very low dose all-day insulins such as metformin are effective for anti-aging purposes however. But its nice to see that Max has found a new home and a following for his psuedo-science mumbo-jumbo. It works well that his English is just bad enough so as to be mostly undecypherable and makes it easy for him to impress newbies and mods who think they know him. If I don't get banned for expressing my opinion right away, feel free to PM me for a few insights on Max's "out of the box" thought processes. Suffice it to say that it to say that I'm a board owner that did not welcome his input.With these comments I should find out whether this board is worth its weight in posting effort. I've found recently that public boards are pretty much a waste of time and prefer the private boards I'm on, however I'm hoping that RX Muscle might be an exception and be "straight talk" friendly. But if someone wants to drop the Ban Bomb, then hello and goodbye all at once.

All that bashing and not a single persuasive argument against long acting insulin offered?

How can I view anything you say as credible, when all you've done is engage in ad hominem?

Also, what you are saying up front is that if we dont accept your bashing, it's because we have a problem with straight talk. In other words, you've already provided yourself with a convenient denial/excuse if we dont' agree with your arguments, pitiful as they are.

[Xfactor]

Xfactor,

If you want to debate any findings or opinions offered then do so in a mature manner. There's no need to bash Maxi's English skills as it's apparent that English isn't his native tongue. It's obvious that you two have history somewhere else but let's keep the threads positive and lose the hate. Thanks.

I was actually being quite mature sir, and if you understood Max and my history you would realize how perfectly restrained my manner was, but I will comply with your request to tone down the hubris.I never "bashed" Max's English skills as they are self-evident, but I have in the past observed that his lack of skills have been convenient redoubts for ill-conceived theories and replies. Dr. P, much has been written about the effectiveness of pre and post workout applications of humalog for bodybuilders. Did you want the repetitious regurgitations in this thread or another?

[Dr Pangloss]

I was actually being quite mature sir, and if you understood Max and my history you would realize how perfectly restrained my manner was, but I will comply with your request to tone down the hubris.I never "bashed" Max's English skills as they are self-evident, but I have in the past observed that his lack of skills have been convenient redoubts for ill-conceived theories and replies. Dr. P, much has been written about the effectiveness of pre and post workout applications of humalog for bodybuilders. Did you want the repetitious regurgitations in this thread or another?


You're mixing arguments brother. You are disparaging the use of long-acting insulin by arguing the properties of humalog? That seems kind of silly. the arguments are simply not on point.

Facts about the utility of a short acting insulin don't argue one iota that a long-acting insulin is either inferior or has no merit.

If you're going to disparage the use of long-acting insulin, tell us why it's no good. Seems pretty simple to me. I don't know why it's so difficult to grasp.

if you're just trying to say, "humalog is good." Ok. I know. Humalog works. I agree.

[Luka Treska]

You're mixing arguments brother. You are disparaging the use of long-acting insulin by arguing the properties of humalog? That seems kind of silly. the arguments are simply not on point.

Facts about the utility of a short acting insulin don't argue one iota that a long-acting insulin is either inferior or has no merit.

If you're going to disparage the use of long-acting insulin, tell us why it's no good. Seems pretty simple to me. I don't know why it's so difficult to grasp.

if you're just trying to say, "humalog is good." Ok. I know. Humalog works. I agree.

Exactly! I rarely hear of bodybuilders using long-acting insulin and Max has been the only person that has given enough detail and evidence that it works quite well. I have never tried it, but I find the idea very interesting and want to know if it can be used with success similar to/better than short-acting insulin.

In this regard, Max has been nothing but a gentleman and has patiently illustrated the theory behind the use of long-acting insulin. No one here is saying that Humalog doesn't work. But can this "new" method that Max is discussing not work too? Maybe it will be a revolutionary way of using insulin in the years to come...maybe not. But the only way to know is to discuss why or why not. And as stated above, you have not said one single reason why it will not work. I am not wed to the idea that long-acting insulin works, but if you wish to argue against it, I would love to hear your reasoning and if it defeats what Max has been saying, then great, I'll agree with you.

Thus far, you have not done that.

[hilly]

i would also be inerested in knowing why you think long acting slin such as levemir is bad as due to reading alot of max's info i have started using levemir for my first time insulin use last week

[Xfactor]

I personally would love to hear more Max's insulin theories. Especially dealing with Levemir, as I had never even heard of it before. Max, break it down in laymen terms.

I'm gonna quote this one rather than any of the other posts in this thread. The reason that Max cannot "break it down into layman's terms" is that he doesn't grasp the common terms that you and I do. I once had a debate with him about the words "uptake" and "transport" which he could not understand. Big goblety-gooky scientific words that can be wacked around and understood 10 different ways are the words he uses which impress newbies and scientific neophytes......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................... Dr. P I used the humalog illustration because we all know that it works, and there is solid science behind the reasons why it works. There are absolutely NO scientific studies that show that insulin 24/7 is effective. All you have are a few bodybuilders on Euroboards that make the claim, but broscience is very subjective, and who is to say what is working, the Lantus or the gram of test and half gram of tren a week they are using............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................................Subj ectively I can tell you what I did in my first post. That all-day slin kills appetite, and for that reason alone cannot be used for bulking. Objectively if you understand how the GLUT4 transport mechanism works, you would know that it cannot be "on" all day long, but is only effective Pre or PWO when muscle cells are primed for glycogen uptake.

[Xfactor]

Another reason I have found as to why bros like Max's theory is that its easier, and they don't have to mess with Satanic Humalog. lol BTW, Max's little theory has had several different evolutions through the years, none of which have any scientific studies behind them.

[Dr Pangloss]

I'm gonna quote this one rather than any of the other posts in this thread. The reason that Max cannot "break it down into layman's terms" is that he doesn't grasp the common terms that you and I do. I once had a debate with him about the words "uptake" and "transport" which he could not understand. Big goblety-gooky scientific words that can be wacked around and understood 10 different ways are the words he uses which impress newbies and scientific neophytes......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................... Dr. P I used the humalog illustration because we all know that it works, and there is solid science behind the reasons why it works. There are absolutely NO scientific studies that show that insulin 24/7 is effective. All you have are a few bodybuilders on Euroboards that make the claim, but broscience is very subjective, and who is to say what is working, the Lantus or the gram of test and half gram of tren a week they are using............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................................Subj ectively I can tell you what I did in my first post. That all-day slin kills appetite, and for that reason alone cannot be used for bulking. Objectively if you understand how the GLUT4 transport mechanism works, you would know that it cannot be "on" all day long, but is only effective Pre or PWO when muscle cells are primed for glycogen uptake.

Well, now you've provided at least one reason. it kills appetite. You claim there are plenty of studies on humalog. How about the one showing post-workout humalog in a trained athlete causes an increase in muscle mass over a given period of time ?

I can tell you there IS no such study, so saying humalog is abundantly supported is an overstatement at best.


Secondly, my specialty is protein trafficking, so you're stepping in deep shit if you think you're going to bullshit me with 1 sentence about glut4 trafficking and how it's either "on" or "off" and cant be "on" for an extended period of time; or that it's only effective "pre" and "post" workout. Glut4 is translocated to the plasma membrane in a signal-dependent fashion by insulin and causes the uptake of glucose. There is no defined "refractory period" wherein glut4 transport will not work as far as i know. Further, I dont believe there is anything suggesting glut4 would not be responsive at some constitutively "on" level.

Please provide me with a references to such.

From here i will go over the background of glut4 trafficking, since you believe it is key to the argument.

By tomorrow i will have thoroughly reviewed this, and i will post about it tomorrow night.


PS. Glut4 does not transport (or take up) glycogen. It transports (takes up) glucose.

[Xfactor]

Well, now you've provided at least one reason. it kills appetite. You claim there are plenty of studies on humalog. How about the one showing post-workout humalog in a trained athlete causes an increase in muscle mass over a given period of time ?

I can tell you there IS no such study, so saying humalog is abundantly supported is an overstatement at best.
Off the top of my head: http://weighttraining.about.com/od/succeedingwithweights/a/hormones.htm "Insulin is an important anabolic hormone. Manipulating insulin is one of the main tools described here for bodybuilding"


Secondly, my specialty is protein trafficking, so you're stepping in deep shit if you think you're going to bullshit me with 1 sentence about glut4 trafficking and how it's either "on" or "off" and cant be "on" for an extended period of time; or that it's only effective "pre" and "post" workout. Glut4 is translocated to the plasma membrane in a signal-dependent fashion by insulin and causes the uptake of glucose. There is no defined "refractory period" wherein glut4 transport will not work as far as i know. Further, I dont believe there is anything suggesting glut4 would not be responsive at some constitutively "on" level.

Please provide me with a references to such.
. Its axiomatic that GLUT4 is brought to the plasma membrane by an ATP requiring process. When is ATP required? PWO. Will flooding the body 24/7 with insulin cause hyperplasia? I don't know and neither does Max, which is my only point. I'll ignore the bullshit comment for now.

From here i will go over the background of glut4 trafficking, since you believe it is key to the argument.

By tomorrow i will have thoroughly reviewed this, and i will post about it tomorrow night.

I wait with bated breath. If you would like access to my private online library PM me and you will be pleasantly surprised. I offer that in the way of an olive branch as its not my purpose to make enemies here, but simply to make the point that there is no science behind Max's claims.

[Dr Pangloss]

Off the top of my head: http://weighttraining.about.com/od/succeedingwithweights/a/hormones.htm "Insulin is an important anabolic hormone. Manipulating insulin is one of the main tools described here for bodybuilding"
Its axiomatic that GLUT4 is brought to the plasma membrane by an ATP requiring process. When is ATP required? PWO. Will flooding the body 24/7 with insulin cause hyperplasia? I don't know and neither does Max, which is my only point. I'll ignore the bullshit comment for now.

I wait with bated breath. If you would like access to my private online library PM me and you will be pleasantly surprised. I offer that in the way of an olive branch as its not my purpose to make enemies here, but simply to make the point that there is no science behind Max's claims.

Hey brother,, i'm not looking to make enemies either. I will check it out on my own. I'm committed to going over two topics tomorrow. I'm pretty sure i'll be able to finish tomorrow. Im a scientist with lots of experience in the lab and plenty of papers. In particular, in protein trafficking. Glut4 and aquaporin2 are both great models of signal-dependent transport and fusion of receptors to plasma membrane.

i will be able to discern whether there is decisive information available with regard to glut4 transport.

I'm just telling you, you can't give me one sentence that doesnt supply the necessary reasoning and expect me to be persuaded.

with all due respect, your ATP argument doesnt make any sense.

However, I will reserve judgement on the entire thing, until i can spend some time with the literature.

cheers.

[Dr Pangloss]

ps. Ok, i'm pretty particular about what evidence says. You're link is not a study as i had proposed. there is no such study.

[firefightermac]

Im one week into Lantus. Have used humalog for a couple years. In the offseason my appetite suffers and i force feed. With the Lantus I am absolutely hungry as hell all the time. So for me long acting insulin has the complete opposite effect to Xfactor.

[Xfactor]

ps. Ok, i'm pretty particular about what evidence says. You're link is not a study as i had proposed. there is no such study.

It sure enough is a study Bro with sources and everything. Sorry there were no graphs or enough science for you. Its just that insulin as a powerful anabolic is so remedial that I can't believe we are having this discussion. If you make me take the time to actually find a couple of studies I'll have to charge you lol. I'm sorry you did not understand my reference to ATP release which is really the only reason to use insulin. Maybe this will help "We conclude that the insulin-stimulated movement of GLUT4 to the cell surface in adipocytes may require ATP early in the insulin signaling pathway and a GTP-binding protein(s) at a later step(s)." http://jcb.rupress.org/cgi/content/abstract/117/6/1181.............................................. ............................................FFmac, I hope your hunger continues beyond a week. It is possible that different physiology's engender various responses to lantus, and since I use metformin, there could indeed be a different result.

[Xfactor]

I realize the study above references adipocytes, but I'm sure myoblasts would also be affected, as it is GLUT4 we are referencing. Dr P I hope you realize that although I am not a scientist I have a fair grasp for a layman.

[hilly]

As i said above i am using levemir this is my second week at 10iu per day with breakfast and i am also hungry as hell all day. However i am also running GHRP-6 which is known to increase hunger.

I am cycling this 3 days on 1 off and the hunger is still their on the day off which would mean the levemir is causing the hunger also.

For people like yourself xfactor if levemir is proven to work then maybe something like GHRP would also be a good addition to reverse the decreased apetite.

Xfactor and DR Pangloss just want to say very good discussion i look forward to following it. this board is getting better :)

[Dr Pangloss]

Ok. lots of stuff to address, so i'll do it successively in different posts.

first, show me by line where in your link they report a study done on trained athletes in which insulin is given post workout, compared to controls, for a period of time, wherein it results in a significan increase in muscle mass.

again, there is no such study. people extrapolate from other findings.

[Dr Pangloss]

the fact that glut4 transport and fusion with plasma membrane requires ATP says nothing about when insulin should be used. All kinds of processes require ATP, and ATP is available in cells ALL THE TIME. Of course ATP concentration is in dynamic flux over short periods of time, but atp concentrations rapidly recover.

Again, an atp requirement does not make it particularly important post-workout.

[Dr Pangloss]

After reviewing how glut4 is regulated by insulin, there is no "all or none," there is no "refractory period." glut4 transporters appear at plasma membrane in a dose dependent and graded manner, a little brings some and a lot brings more glut4. Moreover these transporters are being constitutively activated at a lower level by normal, chronic low level release of insulin, and they are transporting glucose chronically.

The only concievable advantage in pwo insulin is that exercise produces an increase in insulin sensitivity. This is because during exercise glut4 is almost entirely taken off the cell surface, such that when insulin is introduced post-workout there is a large change in glucose transport by recently added glut4 transporters.

but again, whether that results in an increased anabolic effect over a long-acting insulin available chronically is unkown.

Lastly, Levemir has many distinct advantages over short acting insulin. First, hypoglycemia is much less of a risk. second, levemir mimicks the availability profile of endogenous insulin, minus the post meal insulin spikes. Lastly, Levemir DOES NOT RESULT IN INCREASED FAT GAIN. That is huge in my book.

While long-term increases in muscle mass with administration of both short acting and long acting insulins have not been directly established, the bodybuilding world, via massive consensus of personal experiences has established that regular insulin works. I will concede this much: It really has not been established, however, when it comes to long-acting insulins, that they produce long-term gains in muscle mass.

However, given the potential value, I think its' well worth a try.

[Xfactor]

^^^ A well balanced and fair conclusion. now I have to hit the books and see what I can add if anything. I am curious as to why you would state that Levemir would not cause "fat gain" however, and I suppose the insinuation is that humalog would? While GLUT4 transport is primarily concerned with muscle cell, there is spillover to adipocytes. Anyway thank you for the time that it took to do the research and confirm my original hypothesis that Max has absolutely no scientific basis for his claims.

[firefightermac]

Thanks Dr P and X. Fantastic reading.

[indianamonster1986]

I must say been taking lantus for a week now, following max's protocol. It is working amazing. Put on a very solid 10lbs with no need of taking in carbs all the damn time. Max is the man and gives great advice. Have been following his advice since my show and put on a lean 36lbs in a month.

[indianamonster1986]

And my appetite has been through the roof.

[Dr Pangloss]

^^^ A well balanced and fair conclusion. now I have to hit the books and see what I can add if anything. I am curious as to why you would state that Levemir would not cause "fat gain" however, and I suppose the insinuation is that humalog would? While GLUT4 transport is primarily concerned with muscle cell, there is spillover to adipocytes. Anyway thank you for the time that it took to do the research and confirm my original hypothesis that Max has absolutely no scientific basis for his claims.


from the reviews, chronic administration of short-acting insulin consistently results in fat gain in diabetics. Levemir does not.

[indianamonster1986]

from the reviews, chronic administration of short-acting insulin consistently results in fat gain in diabetics. Levemir does not.


Exactly. All I have done differently from my previous diet is take aminos every two hours.

[Dr Pangloss]

a last note. although there is no refractory period for insulin-mediated nurtrient uptake, there IS a refractory period for muscle protein synthesis. Once muscle protein synthesis is activated, it peaks in a few hours and then cannot be re-stimulated, for instance with leucine, for another few hours.

this puts 4-5 hour minimum windows on meal frequency. While that doesn't distinguish between the value of long and short acting insulin, it does suggest that nutrient loading should be spaced accordingly.

[Luka Treska]

^^^ A well balanced and fair conclusion. now I have to hit the books and see what I can add if anything. I am curious as to why you would state that Levemir would not cause "fat gain" however, and I suppose the insinuation is that humalog would? While GLUT4 transport is primarily concerned with muscle cell, there is spillover to adipocytes. Anyway thank you for the time that it took to do the research and confirm my original hypothesis that Max has absolutely no scientific basis for his claims.

Not to step on Dr.P's toes, I know this is a debate between you guys, just wanted to quickly point out that Levemir's ability to avoid putting on (exess fat) on the person using it is indeed shown in many trials.

Just to provide an overview:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/68620.php

From the above artice:

"The unique weight benefit of Levemir® has been reported in every single clinical trial published where it has been compared to other basal insulins.(10-23) Collectively these trials provide data representing more than 4,000 patients. In two recently published randomised clinical trials that investigated insulin initiation in type 2 diabetes, mean weight gain was reduced by more than 50% when comparing Levemir® to equivalent regimens of NPH insulin.(10,11)"

I do not know the exact mechanist as to why this happens but I know that Humalog is almost identical to your endogenous insulin and we know that endogenous insulin has the capability to add fat in all people (if diet allows). Levemir is an analogue of the body's endogenous insulin and my guess is that it does not have such a large affinity to the fat cells. But this is just a guess.

Moreover, Dr.P never said that scientific journals showed the use of Levemir in bodybuilders results in an increase of LBM. He simply said that, just like we lack published scientific evidence on the use of Levemir with bodybuilders, we equally lack the same kind of evidence with Humalog.

Really, the only "evidence" we have is brologic and who knows maybe after 5-10 years from now, Levemir/Lantus may be the standard in bodybuilding circles for slin use. After all, there are a bunch of guys that are already reporting great gains from it.

[Dr Pangloss]

Exactly. All I have done differently from my previous diet is take aminos every two hours.


I may try this protocol in 8 weeks or so.

[indianamonster1986]

I may try this protocol in 8 weeks or so.


It is working amazing. I did legs the other day. I trained the shit out of them and my upper body still was really full. Do you think this is in-part due to the lantus?

[Dr Pangloss]

It is working amazing. I did legs the other day. I trained the shit out of them and my upper body still was really full. Do you think this is in-part due to the lantus?


I have no idea. do me a favor and keep good track of dose, duration, muscle gained and estimate of fat gained/lossed. Give a summary when you're done, including anything else you're on.

[indianamonster1986]

I have no idea. do me a favor and keep good track of dose, duration, muscle gained and estimate of fat gained/lossed. Give a summary when you're done, including anything else you're on.


Sounds good.

[maxititer]

here is few important articles on insulin

http://rapidshare.com/files/231945973/insuln.zip.html

lantus can act directly on IGF1 receptor and cause proliferation of muscle's satellite cells. So besides of other benefites lantus acting as IGF1 receptor directly and can directly stimulate muscles growth.

here quote from article Insulin analogues: Action profiles beyond glycaemic control



Proliferative effects of insulin glargine (Lantus)
The increased affinity of insulin glargine towards the
IGF-1R raised concerns about the safety of this
insulin analogue. A study by Berti et al., (1998)
analysed the mitogenic effect of glargine in rat
fibroblasts overexpressing the human insulin receptor
and could not find differences between regular
insulin and glargine. The first report about an
augmented mitogenic potency of insulin glargine
was published by Kurtzhals et al. (2000) who used
the osteosarcoma cell line Saos/B10 and reported
glargine to be 8-fold more potent in stimulating
DNA synthesis than human insulin. Given that Saos/
B10 cells express a huge amount of IGF-1R (30,000
IGF-1R vs. 1000 InsR per cell (Kurtzhals et al.,
2000)), the result must be handled with care because
this cell line does not represent the normal status of
primary human cells.

Several studies were published
investigating the proliferative effects of insulin
glargine in human primary cells in comparison to
regular insulin. In differentiated cultured human
skeletal muscle cells obtained from non-diabetic and
diabetic subjects insulin glargine was equivalent to
human insulin with respect to metabolic responses
and did not display augmented mitogenic effects
(Ciaraldi et al., 2001). Staiger et al. (2005) reported
that insulin glargine and human insulin are not
different in their proliferative effects in human
coronary artery endothelial and smooth muscle cells.
These results are partially in contrast with a study
performed in our lab, in which we analysed the
proliferative effects of regular insulin, AspB10
insulin, insulin glulisine, insulin lispro, insulin aspart
and insulin glargine by measuring DNA synthesis in
human fibroblasts and coronary artery smooth
muscle cells obtained from different donors (Eckardt
et al., 2007). We observed that all tested insulin
analogues and insulin itself can exhibit an enhanced
growth-promoting activity,
but these results were
strictly donor-specific and correlated to the protein
level of the IGF-1R, InsR and/or IRS-1. Fibroblasts
and smooth muscle cells of donors with higher IGF-
1R, InsR and IRS-1 protein levels displayed an
increased DNA synthesis when stimulated with
regular insulin or any tested insulin analogue. On
the other hand, donors of both cell types with low
protein level of IGF-1R did not show an increased
DNA synthesis upon stimulation and this result is
comparable to that of Staiger et al. (2005). Unfortunately,
they did not present a detailed analysis of
separate donors and the levels of IGF-1R and IRS-1
were not determined.

By using siRNA technology for in vitro knockdown
of IGF-1R and InsR we were able to provide direct
evidence for a key role of the IGF-InsR/Akt signalling
pathway in the augmented growth promoting activity
of insulin analogues. Figure 1 shows the phosphorylation
of Akt after 10 minutes of stimulation with
either regular insulin, IGF-1, AspB10 insulin or
insulin glargine. IGF-1 and the insulin analogues
produced a prominent activation of Akt and
were significantly more potent than regular insulin
(Figures 1(a), (b)). Knockdown of the IGF-1R by
more than 95% resulted in a substantially decreased
phosphorylation of Akt upon treatment with IGF-1,
AspB10 insulin and insulin glargine (Figure 1(c)).
After reducing the InsR by 75%, the Akt phosphorylation
following stimulation with IGF-1 and the
insulin analogues remained on a high level while the
insulin-stimulated phosphorylation was significantly
reduced by 40% (Figure 1(d)). Most importantly,
silencing of the IGF-1R significantly reduced the
effect of IGF-1 and insulin glargine on DNA
synthesis to a level identical to that observed in
response to insulin (Figure 2).

Our data identified
the IGF-1R as the key mediator of the augmented
growth-promoting activity of insulin analogues in
smooth muscle cells and fibroblasts. Taken together,
our results suggest that the individual protein level of
the IGF-1R is critical for the growth promoting
activity of insulin analogues and of insulin itself. The
combination of an insulin analogue possessing an
increased affinity for the IGF-1R with an elevated
level of IGF-1R expression may be a critical safety
issue which needs to be further investigated and a
potential atherogenic potency of insulin glargine
cannot be ruled out. Thus, it is of high importance
to carry out further studies on a potential safety risk
of insulin analogues and it should be made an effort
to include all types of available tumour cell
lines which are known for high expression level of
IGF-1R.

key limiting factor here is amount of expressed IGF-1R (R for receptors) as they said it is very individual, in athletes of course number will be higher.

[Dr Pangloss]

MAXI. is levemir equally effective with regard to muscle igf receptor stimulation? It seemed to me Levemir's effects were blunted on peripheral tissues. this does not seem to be the case with glargine.

[maxititer]

MAXI. is levemir equally effective with regard to muscle igf receptor stimulation? It seemed to me Levemir's effects were blunted on peripheral tissues. this does not seem to be the case with glargine.

in medical terms it is bad quality for any insulin to be able activate IGF1 receptor, because diabetics using insulin a lot like 70-80 iu for basal insulin and 20-40 iu for bolus insulin (fast acting). Then if those insulin will activate IGF1 receptors that will cause much higher risk to get cancer for diabetic patients. Such ability to promote growth of cancer cells was shown in AspB10, experimental kind of insulin. Of course insulin is not carcinogenic and cannot cause cancer itself, but because most cancer cells are expressing IGF1 receptors, AspB10 will definitely promoting growth of cancerous cells.

So, from medical point of view, it is bad quality of insulin analog, if it can binds to IGF1R and activate it. But that is what we need to growth some muscles in bodybuilding.

Levemir is safest kind of insulin in this regard, because levemir did not bind to IGF1R at all. So levemir will not able to cause direct growth muscles also. But levemir undeniable most safe kind of insulin. Another advantage of levemir compare to lantus(glargin) is that levemir did not cause much fat accumulation, even if used in higher doses like 70 iu ED. But lantus definitely will cause some fat if used in such doses.

[firefightermac]

Hang on. Dumb that down. Lantus will increase the risk of cancer?

[Luka Treska]

No, Lantus will not cause cancer and will not make you prone to cancer. It will only be bad to take IF you already HAVE cancer cells in the body because it will make them grow through its expression on the IGF-1 receptors in the cancer cells.

But, rIGF-1 and GH will do the same thing, so Lantus is not any more harmful to regular people than rIGF-1 and GH.

[Xfactor]

Not to step on Dr.P's toes, I know this is a debate between you guys, just wanted to quickly point out that Levemir's ability to avoid putting on (exess fat) on the person using it is indeed shown in many trials.

You quote ONE trial not many, and this ONE trial says NOTHING about an "ability to avoid putting on excess fat", it says: " mean weight gain was reduced by more than 50% when comparing Levemir® to equivalent regimens of NPH insulin.(10,11)" MEAN weight gain means fat AND muscle. There is NOTHING in the study that indicates Levimir targets adipocytes.

[Xfactor]

I must say been taking lantus for a week now, following max's protocol. It is working amazing. Put on a very solid 10lbs with no need of taking in carbs all the damn time. Max is the man and gives great advice. Have been following his advice since my show and put on a lean 36lbs in a month.

Bro I don't know you, but if you think that 10 pounds of weight gain in ONE WEEK, and 36 pounds in ONE MONTH is anything but water weight you are a fool. Sorry to sound like an asshole, but apparently this board suffers from a lack of straight talkers.

Now can someone tell me exactly how in the fuck Levimir can cause a "50% loss of mean body weight" in the study that Luka posted, and yet cause this Bro to gain 36 pounds of LBM in a month? I mean seriously!

[Luka Treska]

You quote ONE trial not many, and this ONE trial says NOTHING about an "ability to avoid putting on excess fat", it says: " mean weight gain was reduced by more than 50% when comparing Levemir® to equivalent regimens of NPH insulin.(10,11)" MEAN weight gain means fat AND muscle. There is NOTHING in the study that indicates Levimir targets adipocytes.

Bro, in the overview that I provided, the claims made are followed by NUMEROUS footnotes. If you go to the footnotes, you will see that their claim is backed by MANY trials ALL showing the same result - Levemir does not cause the same weight gain in patients as other Insulin analogues and in most cases it REDUCES their weight.

Your statement about "doesn't say it doesn't put on fat" is moot. Of course, they are talking about fat gain when they say "mean weight gain". The patients are overweight/obese diabetics who eat regularly/crappy and do NOT train. They will NOT put on muscle by using insulin. The term muscle gain is not mentioned at all in these trials because these researchers couldn't care less if the patients put on muscle, they care if they exhibit fat gains that are characteristic with insulin use.

There is not point arguing that Levemir causes significantly less fat gain than other types of insulin since it is a medical FACT.

[Xfactor]

No, Lantus will not cause cancer and will not make you prone to cancer. It will only be bad to take IF you already HAVE cancer cells in the body because it will make them grow through its expression on the IGF-1 receptors in the cancer cells.

But, rIGF-1 and GH will do the same thing, so Lantus is not any more harmful to regular people than rIGF-1 and GH.

Wrong again. IGF has been possibly linked to accelerated growth in pre-existing tumors, but not enough research has been done to prove whether accelerated tumor growth is a result of higher IGF or if the tumors actually create higher IGF. Also GH stimulates endogenous IGF which does not act in the same fashion on receptors as exogenous IGF.

But, using long acting slin may indeed promote tumor growth, which may be another reason not to use it, especially when combined with the 17aa anabolics that are know to cause liver lesions.

[Xfactor]

Your statement about "doesn't say it doesn't put on fat" is moot. Of course, they are talking about fat gain when they say "mean weight gain". The patients are overweight/obese diabetics who eat regularly/crappy and do NOT train. They will NOT put on muscle by using insulin.

Sorry but you are quite mistaken. There are many studies that show that anabolics used alone without any change in exercise grows muscle. Even a couch potato on testosterone will experience modest hyperplasia. Since insulin is a powerful anabolic, I have no doubt that the same thing would happen.

MEAN body weight loss includes muscle catabolism, otherwise they would have used specific terms.

[Luka Treska]

Lol, funny how you say wrong "again" when I was not wrong before. Secondly, since there is "not enough research" then you cannot make the claim that tumors create higher IGF in the body. Moreover, when I say GH i mean Exogenous GH...sorry I should have specified.

Now if you think that rIGF-1 use and rhGH use does NOT cause pre-existing tumors to grow then WHY in the world would you think long-acting insulin (like Lantus) would promote tumor growth. That idea is absurd. It is not indicated ANYWHERE that they PROMOTE tumor growth. It is only indicated that they accelerate existing tumors.

[Luka Treska]

Sorry but you are quite mistaken. There are many studies that show that anabolics used alone without any change in exercise grows muscle. Even a couch potato on testosterone will experience modest hyperplasia. Since insulin is a powerful anabolic, I have no doubt that the same thing would happen.

MEAN body weight loss includes muscle catabolism, otherwise they would have used specific terms.

I am not mistaken, you are using a stickman argument. There are studies showing anabolic steroids increase muscle in couch potatoes. But there is NO study showing muscle growth caused from insulin use in couch potatoes OR athletes. If there is...SHOW me the study.

They don't need to use specific terms because the fact that insulin use and fat accumulation in diebetics is a huge known problem. What are you implying, that the "50% weight loss in patients using Levemir" is muscle catabolism?

[maxititer]

Lantus, as any other drug which can increase IGF1 level, can promote existing cancerouse cells, but will not turn normal cells into cancerouse, it is not a carcinogen.

For example resistance training will also increase level of IGF1, so it is almost like to say resistance training promote cancer, of course it will be a false statement.

It is just purely theoretical criteria of what to consider safe and what is not so safe.

[Xfactor]

I am not mistaken, you are using a stickman argument. There are studies showing anabolic steroids increase muscle in couch potatoes. But there is NO study showing muscle growth caused from insulin use in couch potatoes OR athletes. If there is...SHOW me the study.

You gotta be kidding me right? Insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the BBers arsenal. Tell me you are joking please? How about DR. Wm Bird,</p>"Insulin is used in bodybuilding to increase the bulk of muscles. Regular injections of short-acting insulin are combined with a high carbohydrate diet and this has two helpful effects. Firstly, the insulin works in the same way as it does in endurance athletes – increasing the volume of glycogen and leading to an increase in muscle bulk. The second effect is that it prevents the breakdown of muscle protein. This means more muscle is made than destroyed, thereby increasing the size of muscles."
How about Jalai, R. (2002, October). The Power of Insulin. Ironman, pp. 252-262.
"So insulin is anabolic in that it allows for a greater absorption of amino acids into muscle tissue but a problem because it can cause fat storage. How do you use insulin to your advantage and minimize its fat-storing effects? The answer is to raise and lower insulin levels at different times in the day. You want to raise insulin levels in the morning and right after a workout - so it's a good idea to take creatine at those two times to maximize absorption."

Now stop wasting my time. If you need remedial education on the power of insulin as an anabolic, go back to www.teenbodybuilding.com

[Luka Treska]

Bud, do you know what a study is?

[Xfactor]

a last note. although there is no refractory period for insulin-mediated nurtrient uptake, there IS a refractory period for muscle protein synthesis. Once muscle protein synthesis is activated, it peaks in a few hours and then cannot be re-stimulated, for instance with leucine, for another few hours.

this puts 4-5 hour minimum windows on meal frequency. While that doesn't distinguish between the value of long and short acting insulin, it does suggest that nutrient loading should be spaced accordingly.

Thanks for putting exact language to my layman-speak, but this is exactly my point for the benefits of short-acting slin over long acting. The only real value in long acting slin that I have found is for anti-aging purposes and then in very low doses, but thats another thread for another forum.

[Xfactor]

Bud, do you know what a study is?

Bud can you read? Those quotes are based on scientific studies from pub-med or do you think those authors just made up that stuff?

Whats the matter with you that you cannot recognize insulin as anabolic? Are you retarded?

[Luka Treska]

Okay, show me those studies from pub-med. That's all I'm asking. I know insulin is anabolic. I know it's a great drug to use for bodybuilding, but there is no published study showing it to do so. What we have is brologic. And that's okay, I accept it, since the rationale behind it is solid and the anacdotal evidence has been very consistent over the years.

Now to clear some things here. I do not appreciate you having this attitude in this matter calling me retarded. Simply because I disagree with you does not mean that either one of us is stupid or wrong. It means we disagree. Fair enough.

If you cannot debate in a calm and mature manner then go to the pit and start calling people retarded there. But this part of the forum is made for calm discussions and doing anything but that will waste mine and your time and no one will gain anything from it.

[Xfactor]

OK I apologize for that remark, but you were heading down a slippery slope with some of your statements. Is there a specific landmark study testing the effects of insulin mediated hyperplasia in strength training? I don't know, but I do know that there is so much ancillary data so as to make it a moot point. I will look through my papers and see what I can find but it will take some time.

[Luka Treska]

I agree, I think that the "conventional" insulin protocol used in bodybuilding is shown to be very advantageous for muscle gains and as we agree the results have been consistant for many year.

As I said before though, I am not wed to the idea that long-acting insulin use is an ideal method. I could change my mind any minute if the method is proven ineffective.

[indianamonster1986]

Bro I don't know you, but if you think that 10 pounds of weight gain in ONE WEEK, and 36 pounds in ONE MONTH is anything but water weight you are a fool. Sorry to sound like an asshole, but apparently this board suffers from a lack of straight talkers.

Now can someone tell me exactly how in the fuck Levimir can cause a "50% loss of mean body weight" in the study that Luka posted, and yet cause this Bro to gain 36 pounds of LBM in a month? I mean seriously!


I have posted pics. You are very ignorant, and are a stupid disrespectful fuck! Go to get big!!!

DOES THIS LOOK LIKE WATER WEIGHT YOU DIPSHIT!!!

[indianamonster1986]

Yes those pics really show 36lbs of water. Considering I have veins, abs, and lines everywhere are visible.

[indianamonster1986]

Now show us some pics your gains from your protocol of fast acting slin...

[indianamonster1986]

Oh and here are pics of me 5lbs heavier from the last pics taken 6 days ago. Just took then 2 seconds ago.

[Xfactor]

Yes those pics really show 36lbs of water. Considering I have veins, abs, and lines everywhere are visible.

Since I don't see any before and after pics, and since I understand that it is physiologically impossible to gain 36 pounds of muscle in a month that makes you a liar. Keep repeating your lie so everyone sees how stupid you are, thats fine with me.
</p>
As far as me posting pics, I may at some time if I like it here, but never to satisfy a lying shithead like you.

[Dr Pangloss]

you guys keep is civil in here. this can be a great discussion if you leave your ego's out of it.

It's just data, so dont' take it personally.

[Dr Pangloss]

in medical terms it is bad quality for any insulin to be able activate IGF1 receptor, because diabetics using insulin a lot like 70-80 iu for basal insulin and 20-40 iu for bolus insulin (fast acting). Then if those insulin will activate IGF1 receptors that will cause much higher risk to get cancer for diabetic patients. Such ability to promote growth of cancer cells was shown in AspB10, experimental kind of insulin. Of course insulin is not carcinogenic and cannot cause cancer itself, but because most cancer cells are expressing IGF1 receptors, AspB10 will definitely promoting growth of cancerous cells.

So, from medical point of view, it is bad quality of insulin analog, if it can binds to IGF1R and activate it. But that is what we need to growth some muscles in bodybuilding.

Levemir is safest kind of insulin in this regard, because levemir did not bind to IGF1R at all. So levemir will not able to cause direct growth muscles also. But levemir undeniable most safe kind of insulin. Another advantage of levemir compare to lantus(glargin) is that levemir did not cause much fat accumulation, even if used in higher doses like 70 iu ED. But lantus definitely will cause some fat if used in such doses.


what makes you believe levemir would be good for increasing muscle mass then? with little IGF stimulation, the notion becomes a harder sell.

Glargine sounds like it's fantastic however, except for fat. by the way i already brought up the no-fat-gaining with levemir some posts back...

[indianamonster1986]

Since I don't see any before and after pics, and since I understand that it is physiologically impossible to gain 36 pounds of muscle in a month that makes you a liar. Keep repeating your lie so everyone sees how stupid you are, thats fine with me.
</p>
As far as me posting pics, I may at some time if I like it here, but never to satisfy a lying shithead like you.


Obviously you are small, very small. and the 36lbs were gained from my profile pic, so there you go. How bout you keep on copying and pasting your posts and make yourself look like a baffling idiot while everyone disproves your bogus statements. BTW everyone on this forum thinks you ARE a joke and that you are very stupid. Your first post in this thread is lashing out at Max, who has always been professional and then continue asking people to show you "one fucking study" and the funny thing is THEY DO!!! and then the go to show how your posts are invalid and wrong. So go ahead continue...I need a luagh.

[indianamonster1986]

Never mind did not read Dr. P's post. Sorry Doc.

[Dr Pangloss]

Never mind did not read Dr. P's post. Sorry Doc.


you're looking huge bro.

[indianamonster1986]

you're looking huge bro.


Thank you. Been really focused this year, more then ever. In part thanks to my son. Do not go out anymore. Just stay at home, work, and train. Things finally seem to be falling into place. Hope it continues!

[Xfactor]

Thank you. Been really focused this year, more then ever. In part thanks to my son. Do not go out anymore. Just stay at home, work, and train. Things finally seem to be falling into place. Hope it continues!

Listen Brolie, you may have indeed put on 36 pounds in a month, but it is NOT LEAN BODY MASS! It is not possible! The lantus you have used has swelled your existing cells and makes you look bigger and weigh more, thats all. Unless you have been Hydrostatically Tested (Underwater Weighing), you are talking out of your ass.</p>
Its too bad I seem to be the only one here who can tell you that. Is there no one else with a set of balls on this forum who can tell this Bro how wrong he is?</p>

[Dr Pangloss]

Listen Brolie, you may have indeed put on 36 pounds in a month, but it is NOT LEAN BODY MASS! It is not possible! The lantus you have used has swelled your existing cells and makes you look bigger and weigh more, thats all. Unless you have been Hydrostatically Tested (Underwater Weighing), you are talking out of your ass.</p>
Its too bad I seem to be the only one here who can tell you that. Is there no one else with a set of balls on this forum who can tell this Bro how wrong he is?</p>


Ok, it seems like quite a lot, but i dont make a habit of telling people they are wrong about something I have NO fucking knowledge of, and they have FIRST HAND knowledge of. It's ridiculous brother. It's like you telling me what my motivation or thinking is.

You might also not be aware that the dude came off a competition diet not long ago.

[firefightermac]

Listen Brolie, you may have indeed put on 36 pounds in a month, but it is NOT LEAN BODY MASS! It is not possible! The lantus you have used has swelled your existing cells and makes you look bigger and weigh more, thats all. Unless you have been Hydrostatically Tested (Underwater Weighing), you are talking out of your ass.</p>
Its too bad I seem to be the only one here who can tell you that. Is there no one else with a set of balls on this forum who can tell this Bro how wrong he is?</p>

No, i agree. Dude you HAVE NOT put on 36lbs of muscle in a month, YES it is water weight. You have just come off of a show and your cells have swelled and you are holding a lot of intra-cellular fluid. Just because you still have veins and abs and striations or whatever doesnt mean it not water. Its just not water under the skin which you may be confused with. Afetr my last show I put on 28lbs in 48 hours. This is not a lie. I still had abs and was extremely vascular. Was it muscle? Of course not.

Congrats on your rebound though. Your looking fuckn full and large. Keep on the straight and narrow and i have no doubt that you will INDEED pack on more muscle with your protocol.

Back to the discussion and lets drop all the bullshit. Im open to ideas from Max, X and Dr P. All have contributed to this great debate.

[Xfactor]

Ok, it seems like quite a lot, but i dont make a habit of telling people they are wrong about something I have NO fucking knowledge of, and they have FIRST HAND knowledge of. It's ridiculous brother. It's like you telling me what my motivation or thinking is.

You might also not be aware that the dude came off a competition diet not long ago.

Doc, you have "no fucking knowledge" that it is NOT POSSIBLE to put on 36 pounds of LBM in a month? Really? I don't even know what to say to that. And this Brolie has never experienced rebound before, and is crediting Lantus for 36 pounds of LBM and you cannot even comment on it?
FFmac, thanks for having a pair. Somewhere down the line that one post will benefit you in a way that now you cannot possibly imagine.

[Dr Pangloss]

Doc, you have "no fucking knowledge" that it is NOT POSSIBLE to put on 36 pounds of LBM in a month? Really? I don't even know what to say to that. And this Brolie has never experienced rebound before, and is crediting Lantus for 36 pounds of LBM and you cannot even comment on it?
FFmac, thanks for having a pair. Somewhere down the line that one post will benefit you in a way that now you cannot possibly imagine.


No. there is nothing in the literature or anywhere else that says it's impossible to put on a cetain amount of bodymass in a certain time.

But don't miss my point. You are telling someone you do not know, nor do you know any of the facts surrounding his weight gain. And you're going to tell me that i should believe you when you've never seen the dude, know nothing about him, whereas he obviously has first-hand knowledge?

He cannot know whether it's all lean muscle, but he's been on the scales and you haven't.

finally, I've gained 30 lbs in the first two weeks after a contest. It wasn't all muscle, but i would expect a large percentage of it was.

and also finally, why the hell are you ruining this thread with this picky crap? If you just want to argue and not communicate, go to the fucking pit, they will appreciate you there.

I mean please, do you think your credibility goes up when you call someone on some picky crap that cannot be verified either way?

come on man, it makes you look bitter and peevish.

[Xfactor]

No. there is nothing in the literature or anywhere else that says it's impossible to put on a cetain amount of bodymass in a certain time.

But don't miss my point. You are telling someone you do not know, nor do you know any of the facts surrounding his weight gain. And you're going to tell me that i should believe you when you've never seen the dude, know nothing about him, whereas he obviously has first-hand knowledge?

He cannot know whether it's all lean muscle, but he's been on the scales and you haven't.

finally, I've gained 30 lbs in the first two weeks after a contest. It wasn't all muscle, but i would expect a large percentage of it was.

and also finally, why the hell are you ruining this thread with this picky crap? If you just want to argue and not communicate, go to the fucking pit, they will appreciate you there.

I mean please, do you think your credibility goes up when you call someone on some picky crap that cannot be verified either way?

come on man, it makes you look bitter and peevish.

The truth is sometimes harsh and bitter Doc. I'm gonna drop the subject now and maybe drop this board. There is a cure for ignorance, but theres no cure for stupid. Apparently straight talk and bitter truth is considered peevish here.

[indianamonster1986]

Okay brolie mcbroster. Whatever you say bro. I guess the rest of the bromemebers dont have the balls to tell this bro what it is. Thanks for the heads up bro. But you are right bro the majority may be water bro, but some of it is gains. bro, broskie, brolie boo.


Listen Brolie, you may have indeed put on 36 pounds in a month, but it is NOT LEAN BODY MASS! It is not possible! The lantus you have used has swelled your existing cells and makes you look bigger and weigh more, thats all. Unless you have been Hydrostatically Tested (Underwater Weighing), you are talking out of your ass.</p>
Its too bad I seem to be the only one here who can tell you that. Is there no one else with a set of balls on this forum who can tell this Bro how wrong he is?</p>

[indianamonster1986]

I know 36lbs are not all muscle in no way....I'd be really happy with 10lbs. Just saying that I am not water logged. I know a lot has to be intra-cellular water. But it has been 5 weeks since my show and taking letro to try to keep as much water off as possible.


No, i agree. Dude you HAVE NOT put on 36lbs of muscle in a month, YES it is water weight. You have just come off of a show and your cells have swelled and you are holding a lot of intra-cellular fluid. Just because you still have veins and abs and striations or whatever doesnt mean it not water. Its just not water under the skin which you may be confused with. Afetr my last show I put on 28lbs in 48 hours. This is not a lie. I still had abs and was extremely vascular. Was it muscle? Of course not.

Congrats on your rebound though. Your looking fuckn full and large. Keep on the straight and narrow and i have no doubt that you will INDEED pack on more muscle with your protocol.

Back to the discussion and lets drop all the bullshit. Im open to ideas from Max, X and Dr P. All have contributed to this great debate.

[firefightermac]

Ok think of it this way mate. your 5 weeks after a show and you think you may be even 10lbs of muscle heavier. If you were to go back to your diet now and get in exactly the same shape (condition wise) as you were at your last show do you think you would have 10lbs more muscle? Not a chance man. You would be the same. Look at a pro like say cutler. He may compete at the olympia at 270lbs. A month later he'll 300. If he diets back into condition think he'll be 280? No way. You just cant pack DENSE, MATURE muscle on like that.

Ive done shows that have been a couple of months apart and have packed on 30lbs in between through rebound and its come straight off again. my weight on stage has always been the same. A more realistic goal would be to aim for 10lbs of PURE LEAN MUSCLE in a year. Fuck, this year i'll be happy with 2-5lbs. That will put me on stage at around 210 @ 5'9. Once youve got a half decent physique (which you have) and it gets more mature it takes a fuck load of tearing down, rebuilding, food and AAS to constantly pack on decent muscle. This isnt having a shot at you mate. This is keeping it real. Keep doing as your doing man. your definately doing the right things.

[Dr Pangloss]

this thread is about long acting insulin, not the man's lean body mass. lets get it back on subject guys.

[Dr Pangloss]

my last question for maxi was why does he think levemir puts on muscle if there is indeed no igf receptor stimulation?

[firefightermac]

Yeah sorry. I would like to add I am currently starting Lantus. Under maxis advise i am also using HCA and GH to help keep the fat gain to a minimum.

[Xfactor]

Okay brolie mcbroster. Whatever you say bro. I guess the rest of the bromemebers dont have the balls to tell this bro what it is. Thanks for the heads up bro. But you are right bro the majority may be water bro, but some of it is gains. bro, broskie, brolie boo.

This is surely the most retarded post ever written. Way to go Brokowski. You are surely suffering from the side effects of Levemir: http://www.diabetesforums.com/forum/diabetes/31472-levemir-side-effects.html
Dr. P these threads have a life of their own and I think a lot was learned here, I sure learned a lot about the mentality here for one.

[maxititer]

levemir did not binds to IGF1 receptor, but still it is insulin. And as insulin levemir is the most potent anabolic hormone known.

Insulin signalling and the regulation of glucose and lipid metabolism Alan R. Saltiel* & C. Ronald Kahn† pg801
link
(http://rapidshare.com/files/232473871/Insulin_signallin_lipids.pdf.html)
Effect of any drug depend on dose and on time of exposure to that dose. Because levemir did not cause any peak concentration even if used 30iu per day, it can be used quite safely and without fear to get some hypo, and because it can be safely used on higher doses it is quite effective kind of insulin. Normal doses of levemir for diabetic are 0.2 iu/kg and 0.4iu/kg that converts into 20-40iu per day for some one f 100kg.

Exposure to 40iu of levemir for 20 hours will give quite good anabolic effect

Clinical presentation of insulin detemir
link (http://rapidshare.com/files/232470178/levemirclinicalpresentationJune07.pdf.html)

Also, I know some one who using levemir and lantus at the same time, he sounds like a happy with results, not a member here.

I do not see levemir or lantus as some kind of miracle super/puper drugs, just another option. If it is suits some one why not to use it then.

I started advocating for use of insulin, because by using insulin, or more insulin, we can cut on steroids and get similar results and use less AAS. Sound like attractive optimization idea to me.

[indianamonster1986]

This is surely the most retarded post ever written. Way to go Brokowski. You are surely suffering from the side effects of Levemir: http://www.diabetesforums.com/forum/diabetes/31472-levemir-side-effects.html
Dr. P these threads have a life of their own and I think a lot was learned here, I sure learned a lot about the mentality here for one.


LOL I was making fun of you BRO....P.S. I'm not your "bro". You truly sound like a babbling idiot. I think you are suffeting from the side effects of being a moron. Why don't you copy and paste some literature so Dr.P and Max can disprove you yet again. You do not even have a physique to back you up. Or a Ph. D. So get lost you troll...

[Xfactor]

LOL I was making fun of you BRO....P.S. I'm not your &quot;bro&quot;. You truly sound like a babbling idiot. I think you are suffeting from the side effects of being a moron. Why don't you copy and paste some literature so Dr.P and Max can disprove you yet again. You do not even have a physique to back you up. Or a Ph. D. So get lost you troll...

You claim a 36 pound gain of LBM in a month and I'm the babbling idiot? lolol

[hilly]

come on lads havnt you had enough yet. Xfactor max is making some good points here have you nothing to add to try and show your points because at the moment i see no issues with levemir.

[indianamonster1986]

come on lads havnt you had enough yet. Xfactor max is making some good points here have you nothing to add to try and show your points because at the moment i see no issues with levemir.

Exactly!!! The dude is worthless. His only contribution is bad mouthing people on this thread.

[indianamonster1986]

You claim a 36 pound gain of LBM in a month and I'm the babbling idiot? lolol


Ummm Im pretty sure I agreed that a lot is probably water, obviously you cannot read skinny. Maybe you should stop posting and hit the gym tinny. Maybe then you can show us a somewhat worthy physique to talk smack....until then STFU!!!

[Dr Pangloss]

levemir did not binds to IGF1 receptor, but still it is insulin. And as insulin levemir is the most potent anabolic hormone known.

Insulin signalling and the regulation of glucose and lipid metabolism Alan R. Saltiel* & C. Ronald Kahn† pg801
link
(http://rapidshare.com/files/232473871/Insulin_signallin_lipids.pdf.html)
Effect of any drug depend on dose and on time of exposure to that dose. Because levemir did not cause any peak concentration even if used 30iu per day, it can be used quite safely and without fear to get some hypo, and because it can be safely used on higher doses it is quite effective kind of insulin. Normal doses of levemir for diabetic are 0.2 iu/kg and 0.4iu/kg that converts into 20-40iu per day for some one f 100kg.

Exposure to 40iu of levemir for 20 hours will give quite good anabolic effect

Clinical presentation of insulin detemir
link (http://rapidshare.com/files/232470178/levemirclinicalpresentationJune07.pdf.html)

Also, I know some one who using levemir and lantus at the same time, he sounds like a happy with results, not a member here.

I do not see levemir or lantus as some kind of miracle super/puper drugs, just another option. If it is suits some one why not to use it then.

I started advocating for use of insulin, because by using insulin, or more insulin, we can cut on steroids and get similar results and use less AAS. Sound like attractive optimization idea to me.

most of the anabolic effects of gh appear to be mediated through IGF, might it not be the same case for insulin? I dont know that translocation of nutrients into cells alone is necessarily anabolic.

secondly, from what ive read, it's effect of peripheral tissues and even insulin signalling pathways is diminished. It seems to have a good effect on liver storage of glycogen though.

just asking, not attacking.

[Xfactor]

come on lads havnt you had enough yet. Xfactor max is making some good points here have you nothing to add to try and show your points because at the moment i see no issues with levemir.

Actually Dr. P is dealing with Max just fine if you are following the thread, and is making my point even better than I could.

[Dr Pangloss]

Actually Dr. P is dealing with Max just fine if you are following the thread, and is making my point even better than I could.


and amazingly enough, i'm doing it without being a complete prick. You must find that mystifying.

[firefightermac]

most of the anabolic effects of gh appear to be mediated through IGF, might it not be the same case for insulin? .

however Humalog or novorapid have shown no effects on IGF-1 either yet have still proven over the years to be able to produce dramatic gains. What other pathways are there?

[Dr Pangloss]

however Humalog or novorapid have shown no effects on IGF-1 either yet have still proven over the years to be able to produce dramatic gains. What other pathways are there?

do you have a ref for that? Insulin actually binds to and activates IGFReceptors, i believe. It doesn't increase igf as hgh does, it acts as an igf ligand.

do you know that humalog has no effect on igf receptors?

[maxititer]

most of the anabolic effects of gh appear to be mediated through IGF, might it not be the same case for insulin? I dont know that translocation of nutrients into cells alone is necessarily anabolic.

secondly, from what ive read, it's effect of peripheral tissues and even insulin signalling pathways is diminished. It seems to have a good effect on liver storage of glycogen though.

just asking, not attacking.

becasue of slow release levemir/lantus can spread well into peripheral tissues.

activation of insulin receptor will not only result in translocation of GLUT4 into membrane, there is four different kind of insulin's receptor substrates, once receptor get activated, it activates some of receptor substrate and it can result in different actions which are different in different tissues. Activation of insulin receptor substrate will result in quite complex gene transcription cascade which we do not fully understand or would be better to say completely do not understand.

Main problem to get real growth from either GH or IGF1 is number of IGF1 receptors. It is individual and understanding of such individual limitations is some how very insufficient. If we will look into such individual differences, then we will see that anti doping and doping prohibition does not make any sense, because response on doping will be always different in each and other. Everybody use gear in bodybuilding and still there is no any clones, everybody are different.

Back to IGF1R, because number of receptors is main growth limiting factor, question is what can we do about it. Here we can exploit two different kind of strategies - use different signaling pathways: insulin, mgf, androgens. All of those three pathway proven to be able cause direct cells proliferation.
Or we can increase number of IGF1 receptors. Can we? Yes we can!! ;)

[Dr Pangloss]

I'll check it out and post a few papers.

[Dr Pangloss]

becasue of slow release levemir/lantus can spread well into peripheral tissues.

activation of insulin receptor will not only result in translocation of GLUT4 into membrane, there is four different kind of insulin's receptor substrates, once receptor get activated, it activates some of receptor substrate and it can result in different actions which are different in different tissues. Activation of insulin receptor substrate will result in quite complex gene transcription cascade which we do not fully understand or would be better to say completely do not understand.

Main problem to get real growth from either GH or IGF1 is number of IGF1 receptors. It is individual and understanding of such individual limitations is some how very insufficient. If we will look into such individual differences, then we will see that anti doping and doping prohibition does not make any sense, because response on doping will be always different in each and other. Everybody use gear in bodybuilding and still there is no any clones, everybody are different.

Back to IGF1R, because number of receptors is main growth limiting factor, question is what can we do about it. Here we can exploit two different kind of strategies - use different signaling pathways: insulin, mgf, androgens. All of those three pathway proven to be able cause direct cells proliferation.
Or we can increase number of IGF1 receptors. Can we? Yes we can!! ;)


cant find any evidence that levemir increases IGF receptors. It is inferior at activating insulin signalling pathway, and does little to activate IGF receptors.

For now, i'm having a hard time imagining lelvemir is anabolic.

lantus, on the other hand, is an asskicker. 5-8 times more igf receptor activation.

[Dr Pangloss]

however Humalog or novorapid have shown no effects on IGF-1 either yet have still proven over the years to be able to produce dramatic gains. What other pathways are there?


The article below suggests humalog (i've forgotten which short-acting modification it is) DOES bind and activate IGF receptors.

1: Diabetes. 2000 Jun;49(6):999-1005.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/query/egifs/http:--highwire.stanford.edu-icons-externalservices-pubmed-standard-diabetes_full_free.gif (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/fref.fcgi?PrId=3051&itool=AbstractPlus-def&uid=10866053&db=pubmed&url=http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=10866053) Links

Correlations of receptor binding and metabolic and mitogenic potencies of insulin analogs designed for clinical use.

Kurtzhals P (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term="Kurtzhals P"[Author]&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Schäffer L (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term="Sch%C3%A4ffer L"[Author]&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Sørensen A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term="S%C3%B8rensen A"[Author]&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Kristensen C (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term="Kristensen C"[Author]&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Jonassen I (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term="Jonassen I"[Author]&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Schmid C (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term="Schmid C"[Author]&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Trüb T (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term="Tr%C3%BCb T"[Author]&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Health Care Discovery, Novo Nordisk, Bagsvaerd, Denmark. [email protected]
In recent years, analogs of human insulin have been engineered with the aim of improving therapy for people with diabetes. To ensure that the safety profile of the human hormone is not compromised by the molecular modifications, the toxico-pharmacological properties of insulin analogs should be carefully monitored. In this study, we compared the insulin and IGF-I receptor binding properties and metabolic and mitogenic potencies of insulin aspart (B28Asp human insulin), insulin lispro (B28Lys,B29Pro human insulin), insulin glargine (A21Gly,B31Arg,B32Arg human insulin), insulin detemir (NN304) [B29Lys(epsilon-tetradecanoyl), desB30 human insulin], and reference insulin analogs. Receptor affinities were measured using purified human receptors, insulin receptor dissociation rates were determined using Chinese hamster ovary cells overexpressing the human insulin receptor, metabolic potencies were evaluated using primary mouse adipocytes, and mitogenic potencies were determined in human osteosarcoma cells. Metabolic potencies correlated well with insulin receptor affinities. Mitogenic potencies in general correlated better with IGF-I receptor affinities than with insulin receptor off-rates. The 2 rapid-acting insulin analogs aspart and lispro resembled human insulin on all parameters, except for a slightly elevated IGF-I receptor affinity of lispro. In contrast, the 2 long-acting insulin analogs, glargine and detemir, differed significantly from human insulin. The combination of the B31B32diArg and A21Gly substitutions provided insulin glargine with a 6- to 8-fold increased IGF-I receptor affinity and mitogenic potency compared with human insulin. The attachment of a fatty acid chain to LysB29 provided insulin detemir with reduced receptor affinities and metabolic and mitogenic potencies but did not change the balance between mitogenic and metabolic potencies. The safety implications of the increased growth-stimulating potential of insulin glargine are unclear. The reduced in vitro potency of insulin detemir might explain why this analog is not as effective on a molar basis as human insulin in humans.

[firefightermac]

I stand corrected. Kind of..

It says lispro had a slightly elevated Igf-1 receptor affinity. Which is humalog yes? and how much elevation? Enough to cause the dramatic growth effects of insulin?

I also take it then that aspart had no effects on igf-1. Personally I have NEVER used humalog. Only novorapid (aspart) and I have had significant gains from it.

This leads me back to my previous question. Is there another pathway that generates growth from insulin use?

[Dr Pangloss]

I stand corrected. Kind of..

It says lispro had a slightly elevated Igf-1 receptor affinity. Which is humalog yes? and how much elevation? Enough to cause the dramatic growth effects of insulin?

I also take it then that aspart had no effects on igf-1. Personally I have NEVER used humalog. Only novorapid (aspart) and I have had significant gains from it.

This leads me back to my previous question. Is there another pathway that generates growth from insulin use?


there is an answer to the bold, it is unkown and undisclosed. I was hoping maxi had an answer.

by the way, "slightly elevated affinity" means it's better than insulin itself. But you are right that it doesn't cause elevation of igf like gh does.

[maxititer]

right levemir will not increase number of IGF1 receptors. Only deviling cells expressing IGF1R and amount receptors is key factor how muscle will respond of stimulation. In another word, we need to increase number of dividing/mytotic cells, or satellite cells.
It is two stage process, first satellite cells have to be activated and then they will start dividing, finally becoming specialized functional myoblasts and create new myofibrils.

Modifying muscle mass – the endocrine perspective
A M Solomon and P M G Bouloux

it is very important article which deals with this issues.

link (http://rapidshare.com/files/233111727/Modifying_muscle_mass_the_endocrine_perspective.pd f.html)

According to current opinion on origin of muscle satellite cells, about 10% originated from bone marrow. We can increase release of stem cells from bone marrow, that way we are increasing number of stem cells in circulation and number of cells expressing IGF1 receptors. Insulin is important drug here too, because those cells are immature and do not have GLUT4 on membrane. if insulin will be in insufficient amount the cells will stop proliferating and become apoptotic or differentiate into functional non dividing muscle cells. Good thing is that if insulin is not presented insulin receptor can be activated by IGF1, which in presented always and in quite large amounts

So we have two kind of strategy first increase release of stem cells from bone marrow, another activate those dormant satellite cells which already in muscles. First approach extensively tested by large number of athletes during last 5-6 years, first were country sky runners and biatlone.

Second approach, activation of dormant muscle satellite cells still need an evaluation. THere is few drug candidates. One of them hepatocyte growth factor, problem - it is research chemicals, quite expensive and not easily available. As far as I know from available drugs only MGF can activate dormant satellite cells, in what degree MGF is effective for activation of satellite cells also unknown.

[maxititer]

I stand corrected. Kind of..

It says lispro had a slightly elevated Igf-1 receptor affinity. Which is humalog yes? and how much elevation? Enough to cause the dramatic growth effects of insulin?

I also take it then that aspart had no effects on igf-1. Personally I have NEVER used humalog. Only novorapid (aspart) and I have had significant gains from it.

This leads me back to my previous question. Is there another pathway that generates growth from insulin use?

humalog modified that way so it looks more like IGF1 and according to some articles able to bind to IGF1 receptor 10 times better then normal insulin.

data about ability of humalog to cause proliferation quite controversial, some people say humalog only blocking IGF1 and do not activates it. But another data sugest that


Humalog, Novorapid and Levemir had similar proliferative potency as normal insulins in MCF7 cells. Lantus, in comparison to the regular insulins, had significantly higher proliferative potency

it may depend on what kind of cells where used in those experiments.

this paper provides good coverage on proliferative potency of different insulin

INSULIN ANALOGUES: ANALYSIS OF PROLIFERATIVE POTENCY AND CHARACTERIZATION OF RECEPTORS AND SIGNALLING PATHWAYS ACTIVATED IN HUMAN MAMMARY EPITHELIAL CELLS

link (http://rapidshare.com/files/233116942/INSULIN_ANALOGUES_ANALYSIS_OF_PROLIFERATIVE_POTENC Y.pdf.html)

[ryli]

Its really as simple as insulin of any form shuttles nutrients from the blood stream into your muscles. That is simply what makes them anabolic. The only differences are the varying rates at which they accomplish this and some are synthetic some are natural.

[Dr Pangloss]

Its really as simple as insulin of any form shuttles nutrients from the blood stream into your muscles. That is simply what makes them anabolic. The only differences are the varying rates at which they accomplish this and some are synthetic some are natural.


how do you know that makes them anabolic? Have you seen a study that parses igf signalling from nutrient loading that finds cellular nutrient loading anabolic?


This is the kind of thing a layman would accept at face value. A scientist would not. There is no necessity for nutient loading to be anabolic.

[ryli]

^do you consider food anabolic?

[Dr Pangloss]

^do you consider food anabolic?


ROFL. That's a pointless assertion. you can force-feed a cancer patient with cachexia and the patient will still lose weight mucle AND fat. moreover, it's just as likely that food would result in fat gain rather than muscle gain, so nutrient loading has no necessary relationship with muscle building.

[ryli]

so if insulin increased igf soo much that it made it that anabolic and it has nothing to do with nutrient partitioning wouldn't we have a bunch of jacked diabetics? Ive seen diabetics taking 100's of units of insulin a day, and I know diabetics are insulin resistant and/or dont produce there own insulin and most dont train.

Im not trying to be a smart ass or debating the studies you quoted I just think your way over thinking things. I do appreciate the science you quote tho...interesting stuff.

And honestly that statement saying nutrient loading has no relationship with muscle building is going against 60-70 years of bodybuilding trial and error. In the simplest form bodybuilding is based on: Train, eat, rest, grow=anabolism

[Dr Pangloss]

so if insulin increased igf soo much that it made it that anabolic and it has nothing to do with nutrient partitioning wouldn't we have a bunch of jacked diabetics? Ive seen diabetics taking 100's of units of insulin a day, and I know diabetics are insulin resistant and/or dont produce there own insulin and most dont train.

Im not trying to be a smart ass or debating the studies you quoted I just think your way over thinking things. I do appreciate the science you quote tho...interesting stuff.

And honestly that statement saying nutrient loading has no relationship with muscle building is going against 60-70 years of bodybuilding trial and error. In the simplest form bodybuilding is based on: Train, eat, rest, grow=anabolism


there is no necessary connection bro. we have a hundred year of obesity also. Insulin invloved all the way. that's not muscle building.

I'm asking you for evidence bro. where's the study discerning nurtrient loading from igf activation?

Evidence is key here.

[ryli]

very good point. so insulin we all agree is anabolic but not necessarily muscle building at least not on its own. but if it increased igf to a significant level wouldn't that in turn lead to muscle building as well as overall anabolism? im not going to go look for studies, but wouldnt the fact that insulin moves glucose from the blood stream into muscle be evidence enough?

this is a great discussion by the way...

[hilly]

Just to add into this i am using levemir at 10iu per day and have been for 2 weeks now during my rebound which also consists of 750mg test and 50mg tren eod with some winny tablets and ghrp-6.

I am currently up 15lb with a 1% rise in bf according to calipers. not sure wether this is good or not as i havnt done a rebound before but i am happy with it so far. Only issue i seem to be having with the levemir is lethargy in the afternoon around 8 hours after injection nothing a 30 minute nap doesnt fix but if i dont have the nap im almost falling asleep at work by 6pm.

[maxititer]

very good point. so insulin we all agree is anabolic but not necessarily muscle building at least not on its own. but if it increased igf to a significant level wouldn't that in turn lead to muscle building as well as overall anabolism? im not going to go look for studies, but wouldnt the fact that insulin moves glucose from the blood stream into muscle be evidence enough?

this is a great discussion by the way...

if you will read this thread more carefully you will find quite few evidences of that insulin is muscle building drug on its own as single drug.

[hilly]

SO Dr Pangloss whats your opinion on fast acting insulin do you still recommend its use.

I am running levemir for first time ever slin use during my rebound. I have gained 14lb over 2 weeks and bf has gone up 1%. My worry is i want to get the full benefit if i am going to use slin and have read alot of max's stuff which makes sense both on here and ukiron.

however his opinion im sure is that fast acting slin has no use for a bodybuilder. would you agree or do you think fast slin has benefits and lots of them and i would be better for first time use trying a humalog slin pwo?

again lads very interesting thread loads of good info.

[Dr Pangloss]

if you will read this thread more carefully you will find quite few evidences of that insulin is muscle building drug on its own as single drug.


forgive me here maxi. please repost these pieces of evidence in bullet-point form; just one sentence each. Pithy if possible. I would like to address each of them.

Mind you, neither one of us really knows absolutely the right answer here. I'm just trying to make it clear where the evidence lies, and how important and reliable that evidence is to your hypothesis.

[Dr Pangloss]

SO Dr Pangloss whats your opinion on fast acting insulin do you still recommend its use.

I am running levemir for first time ever slin use during my rebound. I have gained 14lb over 2 weeks and bf has gone up 1%. My worry is i want to get the full benefit if i am going to use slin and have read alot of max's stuff which makes sense both on here and ukiron.

however his opinion im sure is that fast acting slin has no use for a bodybuilder. would you agree or do you think fast slin has benefits and lots of them and i would be better for first time use trying a humalog slin pwo?

again lads very interesting thread loads of good info.


If i were you i'd switch to Lantus. It's a more powerful activator of IGF receptors than all the other analogs as far as i can tell. I believe you would get the most out of your insulin then.

I'm convinced by Maxi that longer-acting insulins are better also for reasons of safety.

PWO fast-acting insulin is the most tried-and-true method for bodybuilders from what i've seen.

I will tell you that now i will be trying lantus.

[Dr Pangloss]

finally, on levemir. It may be anabolic, but it's likely far less anabolic than lantus. Levemir's only advantage over lantus is zero fat gain.

So it really depends on what you're after: highly anabolic long-acting insulin (lantus), or an anabolic effect of unknown and undisclosed magnitude with the advantage of adding no fat (levemir).

[Luka Treska]

Just to quickly add a little bit to the difference between Levemir and Lantus. According to Max, Lantus may also cause some problems with sight, whereas Levemir will not do so. Personally, I'd opt for Levemir since the idea of worsening my (already crappy sight) doesn't seem worth the few pounds of muscle and as you stated the minimal fat gains with Levemir (as compared to Lantus) is tempting.

[maxititer]

forgive me here maxi. please repost these pieces of evidence in bullet-point form; just one sentence each. Pithy if possible. I would like to address each of them.

Mind you, neither one of us really knows absolutely the right answer here. I'm just trying to make it clear where the evidence lies, and how important and reliable that evidence is to your hypothesis.

as insulin can act on IGF1R result will be growth, muscle cells express quite a lot of IGF1R.

here I posted link to one publication dealing exclusively with proliferative properties of different insulin.

RX Muscle Forums - View Single Post - Insulin: From 101 to Hardcore

INSULIN ANALOGUES: ANALYSIS OF PROLIFERATIVE POTENCY AND CHARACTERIZATION OF RECEPTORS AND SIGNALLING PATHWAYS ACTIVATED IN HUMAN MAMMARY EPITHELIAL CELLS

http://rapidshare.com/files/233116942/INSULIN_ANALOGUES_ANALYSIS_OF_PROLIFERATIVE_POTENC Y.pdf.html

RX Muscle Forums - View Single Post - Insulin: From 101 to Hardcore
here article on same topic

Insulin analogues: Action profiles beyond glycaemic control

http://rapidshare.com/files/231945973/insuln.zip.html

[Dr Pangloss]

maxi. I will examine the pdf's for these papers. However, as the papers that i posted suggest, levemir's effect on igf receptors is significantly diminished. That is, there is little binding or activation of igf receptors by levemir.

Also, Levemir's activation of insulin signalling pathway is diminished compared to short-acting insulin homologs and to lantus.

It is interesting that the proliferative properities of levemir are similar to other insulins. I would expect that to be igf receptor-mediated. This could be explained in many different ways.

I frankly hope levemir IS anabolic. It would be the best of all worlds.

[hilly]

regarding the fat gain on levemir. A member over on ukiron and 2 lads on uk-muscle all experienced fat gain using levemir every day and reverted to using it only on training days.

to be honest i think i may be gaining fat from it as well but is is hard to tell due to me being in that rebound phase.

[Dr Pangloss]

regarding the fat gain on levemir. A member over on ukiron and 2 lads on uk-muscle all experienced fat gain using levemir every day and reverted to using it only on training days.

to be honest i think i may be gaining fat from it as well but is is hard to tell due to me being in that rebound phase.


Well, it's supposed to be the best insulin analog with regard to having less fat gain associated with it. I guess that doesnt mean you can't gain fat.

[maxititer]

here is one more articel about mitogenic activity of insulin glargin/lantus

Mitogenic potency of insulin glargine

LINK (http://rapidshare.com/files/233728847/Mitogenic_potency_of_insulin_glargine.pdf.html)

best way to see if levemir anabolic or not is to try it, I'm using 3-4 times per week 10 iu regularly, difference quite noticeable on day when off levemir.

[maxititer]

one more article about effect of Lantus on skeletal muscles cells

such in vitro studies are golden standard for evaluation of drugs on receptors activity, because in vivo many other factors can interfere.

Effects of the Long-Acting Insulin Analog Insulin
Glargine on Cultured Human Skeletal Muscle Cells:
Comparisons to Insulin and IGF-I
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/86/12/5838

[Dr Pangloss]

Maxi, i agree with you that lantus is fantastic.

[hilly]

just thought i would add i have been feeling very lethargic while using levemir at 10iu per day to the point were around 8-10 hours after injections i was litterally falling asleep atg work and had little energy to want to go to the gym.

I have stoped it as of yesterday so i will see how much of a difference their is this week to see if levemir was the cause of this or not.

[firefightermac]

Im 3 weeks into lantus. Dose has been upped to 35iu in morn. No signs of going hypo whatsoever even on moderate carbs and highg fats. No vision probs either. Fat gain has been negligable. Using HCA 2x per day around 2g per dose.

[bgoo101]

ivve been on slin 4 weeks first time, im up to 8iu's, i injected 4 x aweek

should i stop for two weeks or just keep going ? then back on for 4 weeks again ?

[Aaron Singerman]

Max, I want to write a article for steroidtimes.com about your long acting insulin protocols... PM me and I'll shoot you my email/ph number. The article will be about what's going on in the European BBing scene... specifically insulin.

[maxititer]

we can talk on Skype,
my is online most of the time

[big mike]

Question for Maxititer and Dr Pangloss

Could you write here how use lantus or levemir that we don`t get fat
And what do you think about using combination of lantus and levemir and how to combinated
Sorry for my bad English

[Dr Pangloss]

Question for Maxititer and Dr Pangloss

Could you write here how use lantus or levemir that we don`t get fat
And what do you think about using combination of lantus and levemir and how to combinated
Sorry for my bad English


I'll leave this one for maxi.

[maxititer]

perhaps that will help

http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=7155&highlight=insulin

I know about one guy who mixing 50iu lantus and 50iu levemir ED as single morning injeciton. Alternatively it is possible to do 30iu of lantus 3 x day ED, seem like beter option to me.

[hilly]

Max are their any other boards you go on were people have been keeping a journal of their training and drug use that includes long acting slin with photo's of results etc?

[maxititer]

Max are their any other boards you go on were people have been keeping a journal of their training and drug use that includes long acting slin with photo's of results etc?

not that you are asking too much, but just I cant help here.:cool:

[hilly]

no worries max just would be good to see some results of a new method as their isnt much feedback currently

[maxititer]

no worries max just would be good to see some results of a new method as their isnt much feedback currently

Believe me it is not a new methods at all, just disclosed "recently". About 2 years ago.

It is general rule in biotechnology, or stem cells or molecular biology - any news report, which you may read in media are at leat and at best already 2 years old. Most of media reports about stem cells such f---g joke. Recently was report about how neuronal stem cells was created from embryonic stem cells, just great, that was done 10 years ago.

If you will aply that kind of assumption on use of drugs in sport then any new
thing about which you can read on boards at least 5 years old.

The things may just appears as new.

[not big enough]

would it not be smarter for a first time insulin user to use the faster acting one?

I was planning on using humalog for my first go around.

[machine]

Maxi, I am a type 1 diabetic and have been since I was 6 yrs old. I recently started my diet. For the first time in a few years I am going to diet naturally for the first 6 months. After that period of time if it appears I have lost too much muscle I will jump on with perhaps 500mgs test+ 400 mgs Nanadrolone Phenyl Prop.

I have experimented with different insulin doses throughout the yrs. I have done so during cycles and off cycles. In any case, they tend to accumulate fat on my body.
Considering I am trying to diet do you think there is anyway I can manipulate my Long acting base insulin. As of now I give 20 IU's in the morning and 10IU's at night. Depending on my blood sugar my dose of humilin R varies but on average is roughly 16Iu's. Also note, I just got my rx for levemir and took my first 20IU dose this morning. Unless my protocol changes I will certainly keep you guys in the loop and keep all informed about my results.

What protocol would you recommend for a diabetic trying to lose bodyfat? More levemir and less R?

[maxititer]

best thing for you will be totally rely on your own experience, been a diabetic does not an obstacle for some one determined to become a bodybuilders. If you are going to diet and do some changes in your insulin regimen you may benefit a lot from wearing BG monitor. You can analyze your BG pattern later, and adjust your diet and insulin accordingly.

If you going to diet your body requirement for insulin may reduce, but keep in mind risk of hypo much higher for you. So again BG monitor can be of great help.

Levemir can be injected more frequently then twice a day and by doing so you can reduce your requirement in fast acting insulin. Try to use analytical power of your brain and follow the conclusion, analyze results and do some correction. That is the best thing to do. Once you are on the path of better health, lean body and better metabolic rate, you will see that many medical dogmas about how insulin should be used did not work so well.

Regarding Him R. If you can reduce it doses and your postprandial BG will be still in normal range then it is good thing to do.

there is also one great Russian drug called Derinat, in about 1999 Derinat was declared as diabetic drug of the Year in Russia. See if you can get it from somewhere.

[Bryan Hildebrand]

so doc, max....

given this scientific evidence, I have a few questions that you may or may not be able to answer...

1. what would a new insulin users use look like dose wise for both of these drugs. roughly speaking of course.

2. what would be the benefit of one over the other when on cycle vs off cycle?

3. is GH use for the cycle imperative as well, or is a simple anabolic 12-16 week cycle enough on its own?

I appreciate the citations gentlemen. my endo journal subscription ended a year or so ago...

[indianamonster1986]

Hey max my man, Why do you chose lantus over levemier. Doesnt lantus cause vision problems. I know I was using it and it made my vision a little blurry here and there. I am trying humulin R now just because its cheaper. I start work on Monday and will be getting lantus once my first check arrives. I am so excited to have a good job to support my family!!!

[indianamonster1986]

and my bodybuilding of course...=)

[indianamonster1986]

From experience and talking with maxi. Do not really go off cycle. Why battle to gain weight then lose it when you come off. Do like 600mg deca or eq almost year round with lanutus, and hcg 250 mcg every third day. Just a rough idea.


so doc, max....

given this scientific evidence, I have a few questions that you may or may not be able to answer...

1. what would a new insulin users use look like dose wise for both of these drugs. roughly speaking of course.

2. what would be the benefit of one over the other when on cycle vs off cycle?

3. is GH use for the cycle imperative as well, or is a simple anabolic 12-16 week cycle enough on its own?

I appreciate the citations gentlemen. my endo journal subscription ended a year or so ago...

[indianamonster1986]

I like taking growth with to help get as lean of gains as possible.


so doc, max....

given this scientific evidence, I have a few questions that you may or may not be able to answer...

1. what would a new insulin users use look like dose wise for both of these drugs. roughly speaking of course.

2. what would be the benefit of one over the other when on cycle vs off cycle?

3. is GH use for the cycle imperative as well, or is a simple anabolic 12-16 week cycle enough on its own?

I appreciate the citations gentlemen. my endo journal subscription ended a year or so ago...

[Bryan Hildebrand]

what would the lantus IU breakdown daily look like. is it split dose or a single PWO dose?

[indianamonster1986]

what would the lantus IU breakdown daily look like. is it split dose or a single PWO dose?


Lantus is taken in mourning before breakfast. Start off with 10ius. Increase by 5-10ius a week till you reach 30. Once you reach 30 get a glucose meter to monitor glucose levels. Just take aminos every two hours. I only worked up to 15 ius. I noticed I was fuller the whole day. My upper body was full even after I did legs. Gians are not insane but they are good. and you do not have to worry as much about taking in a bunch of sugar after workouts and not taking in any fats as you would with a fast acting slin.

[maxititer]

From experience and talking with maxi. Do not really go off cycle. Why battle to gain weight then lose it when you come off. Do like 600mg deca or eq almost year round with lanutus, and hcg 250 mcg every third day. Just a rough idea.

if you going to use deca all year round then here is what I recommend to do

1. do blood letting once in a week 20 ml, if doses of deca high any may need withdraw even more then 20L. Regularly check for hematocrit, at least once in 2 weeks. Learn symptoms of high hematocrit in your body.

2. take naltrexon 5 mg per week - no testicular and pituitary atrophy, no need in HCG, own gonadotropins secreting no matter how much deca you use.

3. run cabergolin to keep prolactin in control.

[maxititer]

Hey max my man, Why do you chose lantus over Levemir. Doesnt lantus cause vision problems. I know I was using it and it made my vision a little blurry here and there. I am trying humulin R now just because its cheaper. I start work on Monday and will be getting lantus once my first check arrives. I am so excited to have a good job to support my family!!!

yes lantus can cause vision problem, if you are having it, then lantus not for you, and you should never use it. Levemir believed to be much safer, but Levemir will not stimulate growth as lantus will do..

[maxititer]

what would the lantus IU breakdown daily look like. is it split dose or a single PWO dose?

mostly it is morning injection only, but you can split it on 2-3 injection with 4 hours intervals. Main thing do not increase dose fast, it takes about 2 month to increase dose and it is why you need ED injection. How much you can increase? highest from what I heard is 100 iu ED all year round.

[maxititer]

so doc, max....

given this scientific evidence, I have a few questions that you may or may not be able to answer...

1. what would a new insulin users use look like dose wise for both of these drugs. roughly speaking of course.

start with 10iu Ed and increse 5 iu per week


2. what would be the benefit of one over the other when on cycle vs off cycle?

not sure about that, mostly insulin used to add some mass, you cant do that off cycle


3. is GH use for the cycle imperative as well, or is a simple anabolic 12-16 week cycle enough on its own?

I appreciate the citations gentlemen. my endo journal subscription ended a year or so ago...

again if your idea to bulk then results will be much better with GH of course.

here is the link (http://rapidshare.com/files/240207737/Insulin_growth_hormone_and_sport.pdf.html) ot one very good article

HORMONES AND SPORT
Insulin, growth hormone and sport
P H Sonksen
Guy’s, King’s and St Thomas’ School of Medicine, St Thomas’ Hospital, London SE1 7EH, UK; Email: [email protected]

[chucksm00th]

Max,
You advocate Lantus since its easy and doesnt peak. If someone used Humalog they can avoid fat gains by generally eating no fat during "active times". If one was using Lantus say "10 ius" per day, would a low fat diet be optimum to avoid fat gain?

Also by limiting fat intake can this hurt Muscular gains or would the Lantus superceed this, thus requiring less fat for growth?

Thanks

[maxititer]

of course insulin can cause fat deposits does not matter if you will take fats or not.

eat more fats and as fat is very heavy on calories, and if you not burn it fat will be in deposits with insulin or without.

if you are concerned about fat, perhaps you can look into levemir, as levemir proven do not cause much of fat deposits even if used in large amount.

main problem with any insulin is how to make it more bio available for muscles.

levemir for example can bind to albumin and remain in circulation long enough to reach muscles.


Insulin, in general, is primarily metabolized by the liver (approximately 50%), the kidney (30%), and other (mainly muscle) tissues, with less than 1% excreted unchanged in the urine.

Pharmacokinetics of Levemir (http://doublecheckmd.com/DrugDetail.do?dname=Levemir&sid=72333&view=pk)


but main problem is how to improve delivery of insulin to muscles and improve bioavailability of insulin.

there is few methods which is in use to deliver more insulin to those muscles which you are want to improve. for example levemir can be diluted with human albumin solution and injected deep intra muscular. that way you will have pre stabilized by albumin levemir delivered exactly where you need it.

here is clinical trial with levemir which involved 5,603 type 2 diabetics. The average daily levemir dose was 0.68 U/kg, that is exactly 68iu for 100 kg body weight. That is a prove that insulin is more safe and better serve the purpose then oral medications and dose like 68-70 per not a huge it is regular doses for that type of insulin.



Insulin detemir lowers glucose without weight gain

By Martha Kerr Monday, Jun. 25, 2007; 5:26 PM

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Insulin determir (Levemir; Novo Nordisk), a long-acting new diabetes drug, effectively lowers blood sugar, as determined by hemoglobin A1c levels, and is associated with few episodes of low blood sugar (hypoglycemia) and minimal weight gain in type 2 diabetics, researchers reported this weekend at the 67th Scientific Sessions of the American Diabetes Association, underway in Chicago.

Principal investigator Dr. Luigi Meneghini of the Diabetes Research Institute in Miami presented the results of the study, which involved 5,603 type 2 diabetics who were treated with a starting dose of insulin determir once a day based on fasting blood glucose, with add-on therapy as needed.

Patients were randomly assigned to either self-adjusted dosing, according to instructions provided to them, or to physician-directed dosing instructions.

The average hemoglobin A1C levels decreased from 8.5 percent at the beginning of the study to 7.9 percent after 26 weeks for the self-adjusting patients and from 8.5 percent to 8.0 percent for patients under the physician-driven care plan.

The average daily detemir dose was 0.68 U/kg for the self-adjusting patients and 0.53 U/kg for the physician-directed group.

Body weight change over the study was negligible for both groups, with an increase of 0.1 kg for patients adjusting their own doses and a decrease of 0.2 kg for patients receiving physician-directed dosing.

The rates of hypoglycemia were very low in both groups, with 0.54 events per patient per month for self-adjusting patients and 0.41 events per patient per month in physician-directed patients.

Major hypoglycemic events were rare, at 0.02 events per patient per month for both groups.

At 26 weeks, 88 percent of all the patients remained on the once-daily detemir therapy.

"The study is a testament to the safety of Levemir," Meneghini said. "Since having type 2 diabetes requires a great deal of self-management, these findings will help empower patients to work more closely as partners with their physician to take control of their insulin treatment."

[zekemeat]

i want to try this also would you be safe after you eat your solid meal with the humalog?I have never tried insulin either is it worth the danger? Another ? would it be advised for a first time user to do the pre workout slin or probably get a fill for it a couple times sorry so many questions just trying to learn. Been reading shitloads and this is the best site i have found so far.

[Fitness_By_Alex]

I know this thread is quite old, but I have a question after reading through it:

Would taking larger doses of basal insulin (lantus/levemir) than the body would normally produce increase the likelihood of expedited insulin resistance? It would seem that the more exposure tissues have to the larger doses of insulin, the more resistant they may become to insulin over time. I see no mention (unless I missed it) of how long it is safe to use something like lantus/levemir for bodybuilding purposes in a non-diabetic individual before insulin resistance becomes an issue.

I am hoping maxititer will have some input on this question.

[ATOMONE]

bump for an answer to fitby alexs question