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View Full Version : Anti-estrogens for hips/butt/hams fat.



Celia
11-29-2009, 03:17 PM
I apologize in advance if this has been asked before. I tried reading some posts before I posted mine but couldn't find anything specific to what I wanted to ask. I carry a LOT of fat in those areas and currently I am bulking. It's very hard for me to gain muscle, especially on my upper body. I currently have some rotator cuff issues which doesn't put me out of the gym but makes it even harder to train, especially go heavy. Anyway, this is besides the point.
The reason I bring that up is because I am not doing any cardio because I want to grow as much as I can.
My current stats
Height 5'6
Weight 167ish
Started competing this year, 1 show in figure back in June, 1 BB in October. I completely made the switch to BB now. I am on my first cycle of EQ, 60mg/week. I am taking some clen (40mcg/day) that I had until it runs out which will be just a couple more weeks.
My main question is has anyone had any esperience with anti-estrogens off-season to control fat in those areas? I want tokeep the fat in check down there as much as possible to make it easier come pre-contest.
Thanks ladies!

Wolfpack
12-05-2009, 08:45 PM
When was your show in Oct? I'm asking, because I'm curious as to why you're still on clen...and trying to grow. I would save the anti estrogens for pre-contest. IMO, you want some estrogen circulating during any growth period.

sassy69
12-06-2009, 05:23 PM
I agree. If you are running chemicals towards a specific goal, would recommend you put ALL of the things you're looking to put together on the show schedule and not also use in off-season.

The recommendations are also to use SERMs (selective estrogen receptor modulator) like Nolvadex for 8 weeks or less. Also the aromatase inhibitors (AIs) like aromasin, femera and arimidex, work on blocking the aromatization of testosterone (e.g. if you're using an AAS that converts.) There is a small amount of aromatization to estrogen of testosterone produced by your adrenals , but otherwise, AIs are primarily used to manage the estrogen related to a cycle.

All of these are NOT a "fatloss protocol" and certainly not a maintenance protocol. Further, it appears that the menstrual cycle is very resilient and when you come off from trying to manipulate it w/ the drugs, you have to manage a potential rebound. "No estrogen" is not a natural state for women. As noted above, estrogen is actually needed to help grow muscle. Continued use of them can result in a lot of dryness, both in skin & in joints. And if you're trying to bulk, the LAST thing you want to do use something that is going to compromise your joints.

MOST women have "issues" w/ higher concentrations of bodyfat in their hips / waists/ butts - it is what it is. You can manage some of it w/ diet, you can look at your birth control if you're using any - the estrogen dosage can impact your propensity to hold / not hold more fat there.

But if you want to manipulate it in short periods of time, coordinate it w/ your contest prep. If you use year round, you inhibit many of the things you are trying to do w/ your off-season, and its not for year round used anyway.

Celia
12-06-2009, 06:12 PM
When was your show in Oct? I'm asking, because I'm curious as to why you're still on clen...and trying to grow. I would save the anti estrogens for pre-contest. IMO, you want some estrogen circulating during any growth period.

I figured since the clen has some mild anabolic properties and I put on fat so easily it would be kinda helpful to keep the fat on check. I didn't have that much clen, just a couple of 2-3 weeks worth if that. I will save the anti-estrogens for pre-contest. Thanks!

Celia
12-06-2009, 06:14 PM
I agree. If you are running chemicals towards a specific goal, would recommend you put ALL of the things you're looking to put together on the show schedule and not also use in off-season.

The recommendations are also to use SERMs (selective estrogen receptor modulator) like Nolvadex for 8 weeks or less. Also the aromatase inhibitors (AIs) like aromasin, femera and arimidex, work on blocking the aromatization of testosterone (e.g. if you're using an AAS that converts.) There is a small amount of aromatization to estrogen of testosterone produced by your adrenals , but otherwise, AIs are primarily used to manage the estrogen related to a cycle.

All of these are NOT a "fatloss protocol" and certainly not a maintenance protocol. Further, it appears that the menstrual cycle is very resilient and when you come off from trying to manipulate it w/ the drugs, you have to manage a potential rebound. "No estrogen" is not a natural state for women. As noted above, estrogen is actually needed to help grow muscle. Continued use of them can result in a lot of dryness, both in skin & in joints. And if you're trying to bulk, the LAST thing you want to do use something that is going to compromise your joints.

MOST women have "issues" w/ higher concentrations of bodyfat in their hips / waists/ butts - it is what it is. You can manage some of it w/ diet, you can look at your birth control if you're using any - the estrogen dosage can impact your propensity to hold / not hold more fat there.

But if you want to manipulate it in short periods of time, coordinate it w/ your contest prep. If you use year round, you inhibit many of the things you are trying to do w/ your off-season, and its not for year round used anyway.

Thanks for the reply! You are saying I should use Nolvadex in addition to AAS?

sassy69
12-06-2009, 09:53 PM
I figured since the clen has some mild anabolic properties and I put on fat so easily it would be kinda helpful to keep the fat on check. I didn't have that much clen, just a couple of 2-3 weeks worth if that. I will save the anti-estrogens for pre-contest. Thanks!


Clen is not "mildly anabolic" - there is no testosterone in it. It is rather, purported to have anti-catabolic effects.

I think its more important that you use diet & maybe some limited cardio to keep fat in order in your off-season and save the chemicals for your competition cycle.

Also keep in mind that you are looking to literally alter your physique. Competition is not about what you can do in the 16 week period, but rather what you do in the long run - your training, and years of training is what builds muscle mass and muscle maturity. Similarly, 'training' your body to build muscle while managing fat can be accomplished by specific and consistent diet & training off season as well - this means keeping your program in order off season - not just letting everything go back to where your body tends to go when you do nothing special. You can use the off season to increase lean muscle mass while not getting crazy w/ fat so that each time you compete you're already at a leaner body composition than last time, and as your body becomes accustomed to operating at leaner bodyfat levels, it will function more efficiently to maintain those leaner body levels. The more you rely on drugs to do what your 'lifestyle' should really be accomplishing to support where your body likes to run most efficiently, the more unmaintainable gains you develop and the faster you'll burn out and very potentially rebound.

Here's my opinion of first-time competitors. You should be relying on years of lifting to build muscle to present in competition - not cycling because you want to compete and feel like you have to in order to get on the same stage w/ others. That sets completely the wrong expectations about what competition is and where the chemistry fits in. It is first and foremost a lifestyle, and the things efficient management of the things your body is designed to work with are what are your foundation - i.e. diet, training, cardio, recovery. The drugs are necessarily secondary because if the first aren't already in place and working, then the drugs are not going to produce the results you want in a maintainable way.

I hope I'm not coming across as a hardass - but I can't tell you how important it is that you master your diet & training both on & off season, and know how to manipulate them for the results you want, before trying to mix in this & that chemicals to produce a result that is outside of the primary goal - i.e if you want to build, then build. If you're trying to build while using a cutter, you're making your body try to operate under opposing influences -therefore you can't expect good build results or good "fat loss "results. Instead your diet should probably be geared towards a slow, clean bulk that will minimize fat gain but still promote hypertrophy and good recovery.

Celia
12-06-2009, 10:52 PM
Clen is not "mildly anabolic" - there is no testosterone in it. It is rather, purported to have anti-catabolic effects.

Something like that:baby: :dunno:

Celia
12-06-2009, 10:58 PM
I hope I'm not coming across as a hardass

Not at all! Again, thanks so much for all this information. It makes perfect sense. I'm not trying to rely all on drugs. I like to train hard. Just genetically I'm gifted (NOT!) with the hips and butt and the fat that comes with it. Should I be doing some low intensity cardio? How much? When you mention "clean bulk" exactly what do you mean I should eat? I'm eating 6 meals a day. I eat everything I would normally eat on the keto diet except I have carbs with meals 1-5, no carbs before bed. I used to eat whole wheat bread and whole wheat pasta with sauces and all that but now my carbs are only bananas, waximaize, brown rice, and sweet potatoes.
Meal 1 about 70g carbs
Meal 2 50g
Meal 3 pre workout 50-55g
Meal 4 post workout 70
Meal 5 50g
Meal 6 no carbs
I eat about 30 but not more than 35g of protein per meal. And maybe 60g fat/day or less.

sassy69
12-07-2009, 12:01 AM
Not at all! Again, thanks so much for all this information. It makes perfect sense. I'm not trying to rely all on drugs. I like to train hard. Just genetically I'm gifted (NOT!) with the hips and butt and the fat that comes with it. Should I be doing some low intensity cardio? How much? When you mention "clean bulk" exactly what do you mean I should eat? I'm eating 6 meals a day. I eat everything I would normally eat on the keto diet except I have carbs with meals 1-5, no carbs before bed. I used to eat whole wheat bread and whole wheat pasta with sauces and all that but now my carbs are only bananas, waximaize, brown rice, and sweet potatoes.
Meal 1 about 70g carbs
Meal 2 50g
Meal 3 pre workout 50-55g
Meal 4 post workout 70
Meal 5 50g
Meal 6 no carbs
I eat about 30 but not more than 35g of protein per meal. And maybe 60g fat/day or less.


Its hard to give specific diet details --- a part of it is just learning what your body responds to. Also you need to find the total cals that allows you to meet your training goals but keep the bodyfat gain under control. Generally if you're not eating shit, and not eating crazy excess calories you're doing good. Many people see off-season as feeding frenzy time and then things get out of hand.

You might do 3 x 20-30 min steady state cardio / week and see how that works. I would try that w/ your current diet - if you want to see how you react to changes, you need to make one change at a time, hold the rest constant and do it for a good 3 weeks for your body to react and respond. Then you can speak to whether or not this or that is working for you.

BTW - anti-catabolic implies that clen preserves existing muscle mass while cutting vs actually building muscle.

Wolfpack
12-07-2009, 09:25 AM
but now my carbs are only bananas, waximaize, brown rice, and sweet potatoes.
Meal 1 about 70g carbs
Meal 2 50g
Meal 3 pre workout 50-55g
Meal 4 post workout 70
Meal 5 50g
Meal 6 no carbs
I eat about 30 but not more than 35g of protein per meal. And maybe 60g fat/day or less.

You eat this everyday, even on non-training days? There are a couple of things I'd change. One is the carb sources. IMO, your carb sources shouldn't be much different from off season to pre contest. I don't know your physique or metabolism so maybe the calories aren't too high, but IMO I would've started you just a little lower. In fact, I'd have you carb cycling in the off season with your current calories being a med/high day. All this would depend on how you react to carbs, fats, etc.

Celia
12-07-2009, 10:17 AM
BTW - anti-catabolic implies that clen preserves existing muscle mass while cutting vs actually building muscle.
Yeah I guess that's what I was trying to say. =)

Well I have noticed a difference when I switched my carbs up. When I was eating whole wheat pasta with alfredo sauce for 2 of my meals I was getting kinda fat. Plus I took 2 weeks off to recover from shoulder pains and such and moving and I had been eating REALLY bad. But switching it up to waxi, bananas, sweet potatoes, and brown rice the past few days have really made a difference.

Celia
12-07-2009, 10:22 AM
You eat this everyday, even on non-training days? There are a couple of things I'd change. One is the carb sources. IMO, your carb sources shouldn't be much different from off season to pre contest. I don't know your physique or metabolism so maybe the calories aren't too high, but IMO I would've started you just a little lower. In fact, I'd have you carb cycling in the off season with your current calories being a med/high day. All this would depend on how you react to carbs, fats, etc.


Less calories? Really? I get so hungry even eating like this. My metabolism isn't the greatest but it's not too bad either. Like I said in the last post just switching from pasta and alfredo sauce to whole wheat bread and now sweet potatoes and brown rice have made a big difference. I am getting a little bit leaner. I even lost a couple lbs in a few days just from switching up my foods and doing no cardio still. My fats come from 93% ground beef, extra virgin olive oil which I just mainly cook with, and natural PB.
If I were to eat these carbs pre-contest I would be eating oatmeal, brown rice and sweet potatoes, even waximaize up until 8 weeks out. I would probably just take out the bananas at some point. What carbs do you suggest?

~gymdiva~
12-07-2009, 11:20 AM
not necessarily less calories across the board but less carbs....have you ever tried a more keto approach before? I'm not trying to sell you on Dave's or others methods but rather through reading your posts you sound a lot like me! and I know whenever I've carb cycled and/or just kept carbs in there I've held onto that fat and water in the thighs and bootay much longer....

sassy69
12-07-2009, 12:10 PM
What off-season diet allows you to do is re-introduce all of the colorful fruits and vegetables that are taken out in competition diet (e.g. other than the green leafy stuff that we all eat during prep). The more colorful stuff has enzymes that our bodies rely on to help shuttle out the by products of metabolism. We strip out this stuff (e.g. carrots, etc - the sweeter, higher GI veggies & fruits) because they are high GI and impact our comptition goals of optimizing for fat loss and fueling optimially for energy to support that goal. I think when we talk about off season diets - its really the same as your prep diet but w/ more variety and less limited cal intake.

If you're like me - I'm very estrogenic - over the years I've found that I don't respond well to either carb loads or fat loads (don't draw conclusions about 'high estrogen" equals this - this is my observation from > 15 yrs of dieting on carbs, carb cycling, keto down to 7% several times - you have to pay attention and observe how your body works to learn how to optimize what you do). Thus I am finding I'm probably better keeping something like a 50% P / 25% c/ 25% f type macro ratio. I'll be exploring that thought this winter.

Celia
12-07-2009, 12:14 PM
not necessarily less calories across the board but less carbs....have you ever tried a more keto approach before? I'm not trying to sell you on Dave's or others methods but rather through reading your posts you sound a lot like me! and I know whenever I've carb cycled and/or just kept carbs in there I've held onto that fat and water in the thighs and bootay much longer....

I think keto is by by far the greatest pre-contest diet. But I need to pack on size now so I need the carbs. By keeping in the cleaner carbs I thought I was doing a "clean bulk". No?

sassy69
12-07-2009, 02:09 PM
I think keto is by by far the greatest pre-contest diet. But I need to pack on size now so I need the carbs. By keeping in the cleaner carbs I thought I was doing a "clean bulk". No?

What does your complete meal plan look like so we can know total calories as well as total proteins & fats?

Celia
12-07-2009, 08:20 PM
What does your complete meal plan look like so we can know total calories as well as total proteins & fats?

Meal 1
35g whey
45g waximaize
1 medium banana about 25g carbs
1 tbsp natural PB (8g fat/3.5g protein/3.5g carbs)

Meal 2
5 oz 93% ground beef (35g protein/13g fat)
brown rice to make 50g
1 tbsp natural PB (8g fat/3.5g protein/3.5g carbs)

Meal 3 (pre-workout)
35g whey
40g waximaize
1/2 medium banana about 12.5g
1 tbsp natural PB (8g fat/3.5g protein/3.5g carbs)

Meal 4 (post-workout)
35g whey
45g waximaize
1 medium banana about 25g carbs
1 tbsp natural PB (8g fat/3.5g protein/3.5g carbs)

Meal 5
5 oz chicken (35g protein)
sweet potato to make 50g
1 tbsp natural PB (8g fat/3.5g protein/3.5g carbs)

Meal 6
4 jumbo whole eggs (28g protein/20g fat)

Totals
P about 220.5g
C about 310g
F about 73g

I use sea salt so season all meats and eggs while cooking, and other seasonings. The seasonings are usually salt free or have sea salt in it.

sassy69
12-07-2009, 08:32 PM
^^ what are the total calories?

Celia
12-07-2009, 08:37 PM
^^ what are the total calories?

When I do the math it's about 2777.

Tatyana
12-07-2009, 08:37 PM
I would recommend you eat some real food instead of whey and wazy maize.

It is not surprising you are hungry when eating this.

If you plan on competeing in the long term, eating this way will drive you bonkers after awhile.

You can make very bodybuilding friendly meals with things like chili or chicken stew, and you can load them up with loads of fibrous veggies, as well as mixing up the carb sources with things like beans and lentils.

~gymdiva~
12-07-2009, 11:35 PM
oh man meal 2 just made me hungry!



don't ask why but something bothers me about so many bananas in the diet....I do agree with Tat on more whole foods....the more the better....keeps you fuller and more satisfied and usually does not have a gazillion things added to it (in the artificial sense)....



but I did actually speak with someone last year about whether I could/should stay on a small level of nolva year round b/c my hormone related fat retention (and my hormones in general) was just bad but we both agreed me getting a handle on my diet first would be key and unfortunately this still involves a lot of trial and error....do you have a journal on here yet? I'd love to read about your training and different diet tactics and how you respond to them and see how your results are coming long before you compete again...of course we'll all want you to keep us updated on the competing, too-we're greedy like that ;)

sassy69
12-08-2009, 12:48 AM
I would recommend you eat some real food instead of whey and wazy maize.

It is not surprising you are hungry when eating this.

If you plan on competeing in the long term, eating this way will drive you bonkers after awhile.

You can make very bodybuilding friendly meals with things like chili or chicken stew, and you can load them up with loads of fibrous veggies, as well as mixing up the carb sources with things like beans and lentils.

That's my take as well....

Por2gue
12-22-2009, 03:44 AM
Don't be afraid of some cardio during the off season either, I used to think that way. Your metabolism will thank you.

debbiebramwell
12-22-2009, 11:44 AM
sassy has given you great info here(and everyone else) I wanted to say that dave has an offseason protocal..adding 25 grms carbs to first 4 meals(5 meals total)If you are someone who gains fat easy then that is plenty. You are getting your protein and fat in which is needed for adding muscle. I would lower your carbs and add some cardio. Theres no reason to gain alot of bodyfat offseason. I also never take any drugs offseason. You just did a show and need to be off everything.:)