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juggernaut
11-29-2009, 10:37 PM
How much of a difference does Lyle McDonald's recommendation of 15g of dextrose and a combination of 20g of whey in a jug of water during a weight training workout have in muscular growth?

Are there any studies to backup this assertion?

natron
11-29-2009, 10:49 PM
How much of a difference does Lyle McDonald's recommendation of 15g of dextrose and a combination of 20g of whey in a jug of water during a weight training workout have in muscular growth?

Are there any studies to backup this assertion?

In comparison to what?

juggernaut
11-29-2009, 10:50 PM
In comparison to what?
just plain water. Does it make that much of a difference....sorry forgot to put that in there.

natron
11-29-2009, 10:56 PM
just plain water. Does it make that much of a difference....sorry forgot to put that in there.

Yes it dose.

There are many studies backing this notion, and it is basically common sense.

juggernaut
11-29-2009, 10:58 PM
Yes it dose.

There are many studies backing this notion, and it is basically common sense.
ok, so then what are the benefits? I do this anyway, but always wondered if this is pure speculation or there is backed research on it.

Frosty
11-29-2009, 11:14 PM
Just from a theoretical point of view, I wouldn't want to use a protein during a workout since blood flow is directed towards the muscles and digestion is reduced. If I were going to use something intra-workout it would be either aminos or highly hydrolyzed proteins (preferably di and tripeptides).

The other question is, I have seen information on a PRE-workout drink doubling protein synthesis vs. the same composition post-workout drink. Why wouldn't you just take the drink PRE-workout, since even pure glucose takes a little time to really get into the blood. Isn't it like 20-30 mins to peak?

juggernaut
11-29-2009, 11:20 PM
In prepping for a contest on calorie restriction, I do take in a bcaa drink during the training, but never use dextrose, except on a high carb day of cycle rotation.

As for the dextrose prior, I usually dont because I crash and burn too quickly. I prefer fruit and whey to that.

natron
11-30-2009, 12:08 AM
My bad, I overlooked during training.

I'll touch on this tomorrow. I don't personally drink during a workout

SuperSaiyanPump
11-30-2009, 12:35 AM
If your looking for intra workout drinks try something like intravol by muscletech. Or adrenoline by ultimate nutrition. They both cover the whole intrawork out category pretty well and they don't taste overall bad. The whole theory is that your trying to keep your glycogen stores fuelled up all through your workout. I've been using milos sarcev 3 shakes theory to incoporate the theory and scene some great results.

TPT
11-30-2009, 01:28 AM
the following was the first study on the effects of 'intra' exercise carb and protein supplementation. the study showed interesting results.

be back to chat.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/295/1/E70
Protein coingestion stimulates muscle protein synthesis during resistance-type exercise

Milou Beelen,1 Ren Koopman,1 Annemie P. Gijsen,2,3 Hanne Vandereyt,3 Arie K. Kies,4 Harm Kuipers,1 Wim H. M. Saris,2 and Luc J. C. van Loon1,2,3

1Department of Movement Sciences; 2Department of Human Biology, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht University; 3Stable Isotope Research Center, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht University, Maastricht; and 4DSM Food Specialties, Delft, The Netherlands
Submitted 13 December 2007 ; accepted in final form 22 April 2008

In contrast to the effect of nutritional intervention on postexercise muscle protein synthesis, little is known about the potential to modulate protein synthesis during exercise. This study investigates the effect of protein coingestion with carbohydrate on muscle protein synthesis during resistance-type exercise. Ten healthy males were studied in the evening after they consumed a standardized diet throughout the day. Subjects participated in two experiments in which they ingested either carbohydrate or carbohydrate with protein during a 2-h resistance exercise session. Subjects received a bolus of test drink before and every 15 min during exercise, providing 0.15 gkg1h1 carbohydrate with (CHO + PRO) or without (CHO) 0.15 gkg1h1 protein hydrolysate. Continuous intravenous infusions with L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine and L-[ring-2H2]tyrosine were applied, and blood and muscle biopsies were collected to assess whole body and muscle protein synthesis rates during exercise. Protein coingestion lowered whole body protein breakdown rates by 8.4 3.6% (P = 0.066), compared with the ingestion of carbohydrate only, and augmented protein oxidation and synthesis rates by 77 17 and 33 3%, respectively (P < 0.01). As a consequence, whole body net protein balance was negative in CHO, whereas a positive net balance was achieved after the CHO + PRO treatment (4.4 0.3 vs. 16.3 0.4 mol phenylalaninekg1h1, respectively; P < 0.01). In accordance, mixed muscle protein fractional synthetic rate was 49 22% higher after protein coingestion (0.088 0.012 and 0.060 0.004%/h in CHO + PRO vs. CHO treatment, respectively; P < 0.05). We conclude that, even in a fed state, protein coingestion stimulates whole body and muscle protein synthesis rates during resistance-type exercise.
nutrition; amino acids; muscle anabolism

Address for reprint requests and other correspondence: M. Beelen, Dept. of Human Movement Sciences, Maastricht Univ., PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands (e-mail: Milou.Beelen@BW.unimaas.nl (Milou.Beelen@BW.unimaas.nl) )

TPT
11-30-2009, 01:33 AM
another study. be back.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/138/11/2198

Nutrient Physiology, Metabolism, and Nutrient-Nutrient Interactions
Coingestion of Carbohydrate and Protein Hydrolysate Stimulates Muscle Protein Synthesis during Exercise in Young Men, with No Further Increase during Subsequent Overnight Recovery13,

Milou Beelen4,*, Michael Tieland4, Annemie P. Gijsen5,6, Hanne Vandereyt6, Arie K. Kies7, Harm Kuipers4, Wim H. M. Saris5, Ren Koopman4 and Luc J. C. van Loon46


4 Department of Movement Sciences and 5 Department of Human Biology, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht University, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands; 6 Stable Isotope Research Center, Academic Hospital Maastricht, 6229 HX Maastricht, The Netherlands; and 7 DSM Food Specialties, 2600 MA Delft, The Netherlands


* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: milou.beelen@bw.unimaas.nl (milou.beelen@bw.unimaas.nl) . We investigated the effect of carbohydrate and protein hydrolysate ingestion on whole-body and muscle protein synthesis during a combined endurance and resistance exercise session and subsequent overnight recovery. Twenty healthy men were studied in the evening after consuming a standardized diet throughout the day. Subjects participated in a 2-h exercise session during which beverages containing both carbohydrate (0.15 gkg1h1) and a protein hydrolysate (0.15 gkg1h1) (C+P, n = 10) or water only (W, n = 10) were ingested. Participants consumed 2 additional beverages during early recovery and remained overnight at the hospital. Continuous i.v. infusions with L-[ring-13C6]-phenylalanine and L-[ring-2H2]-tyrosine were applied and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole-body and muscle protein synthesis rates. During exercise, whole-body and muscle protein synthesis rates increased by 29 and 48% with protein and carbohydrate coingestion (P < 0.05). Fractional synthetic rates during exercise were 0.083 0.011%/h in the C+P group and 0.056 0.003%/h in the W group, (P < 0.05). During subsequent overnight recovery, whole-body protein synthesis was 19% greater in the C+P group than in the W group (P < 0.05). However, mean muscle protein synthesis rates during 9 h of overnight recovery did not differ between groups and were 0.056 0.004%/h in the C+P group and 0.057 0.004%/h in the W group (P = 0.89). We conclude that, even in a fed state, protein and carbohydrate supplementation stimulates muscle protein synthesis during exercise. Ingestion of protein with carbohydrate during and immediately after exercise improves whole-body protein synthesis but does not further augment muscle protein synthesis rates during 9 h of subsequent overnight recovery.

Frosty
11-30-2009, 01:40 AM
Ingestion of protein with carbohydrate during and immediately after exercise improves whole-body protein synthesis but does not further augment muscle protein synthesis rates during 9 h of subsequent overnight recovery.

So the question is, how much does this really matter for the average gym rat??

Bekim Rizvani
11-30-2009, 03:33 AM
Why would you take protein during your workout? If your going to drink anything your work out drink a carb drink to keep you energy up and protein afterward

Abraxas
11-30-2009, 05:34 AM
so the question is, how much does this really matter for the average gym rat??

Bingo!

juggernaut
11-30-2009, 10:00 AM
So the question is, how much does this really matter for the average gym rat??Well, obviously to the gym rat, but also in competitive bbing during a bulk/precontest phase?

Abraxas
11-30-2009, 01:27 PM
Well, obviously to the gym rat, but also in competitive bbing during a bulk/precontest phase?

Compared to everything else they are doing,nada:)

Frosty
11-30-2009, 02:09 PM
Compared to everything else they are doing,nada:)

How do we know that? I wasn't implying that it meant virtually nothing. I was asking since I'm wondering if this is going to make any real difference in terms of results.

juggernaut
11-30-2009, 03:08 PM
Compared to everything else they are doing,nada:)
this statement can be misconstrued in several different ways; is this a joke or there some detail that I'm missing?

Abraxas
11-30-2009, 03:14 PM
How do we know that? I wasn't implying that it meant virtually nothing. I was asking since I'm wondering if this is going to make any real difference in terms of results.

Yeah I know,but the answer to the question gets even easier when your talking about competitive bodybuilding.,I mean I assume we are not talking about naturals here.

Even then I see no real benefits taking anything during the workout.

If you want to be sure to maximize anabolism,and minimize catabolism,be sure to spike insuline pre workout,and your done,assuming your not working out for hours that is.

Anyway all this is nitpicking and I highly doubt it will make a difference...scratch that I will dare to go out on a limb ,putting science aside and say it wont do shit.

Abraxas
11-30-2009, 03:18 PM
this statement can be misconstrued in several different ways; is this a joke or there some detail that I'm missing?

No bro,I mean if chemicals are used the potential benefit of intra workout nutrition,will be even smaller.

juggernaut
11-30-2009, 03:33 PM
I'm referring to human physiology and the reactions of two components for muscle repair and regeneration. As far AAS using bbers or whatever, no reference was made to point you in that direction. Focus.

Abraxas
11-30-2009, 03:49 PM
I'm referring to human physiology and the reactions of two components for muscle repair and regeneration. As far AAS using bbers or whatever, no reference was made to point you in that direction. Focus.

Alright,look if your are taking simple carbs pre workout,any benefit taking carbs during training would be negligible,in terms of anti katabolism.

There is nothing intra nutrition can do for you that pre workout nutrition cant.

And anything revolving pre-post-intra workout nutrition wont be making a difference in the long run anyway.

Yes take some carbs yes take some protein,around your workout but pre post or during,does not matter ,its a hyped up phenomenon instigated by the supplement companies.

Eating enough protein,picking the right type of training,adequate sleep will all have a much more profound effect,making this subject irrelevant.

juggernaut
11-30-2009, 03:57 PM
We conclude that, even in a fed state, protein coingestion stimulates whole body and muscle protein synthesis rates during resistance-type exercise.

thanks PT. Exactly what I was looking for-a study to back it up.

natron
11-30-2009, 04:17 PM
With the science aside, I have tried training and sipping protein/carbs during the workout and I'll tell you what I do notice. My training takes longer, and I'm uncomfortable.

I always get a meal in before training anyways, about 1-2 hours out. Post workout is

30 grams undenatured whey isolate
20-50 grams of dextrose (20 during cutting, 50 during bulking)
5 grams of creatine

It works well for me, I can tolerate it and it's very affordable.

vboissiere
11-30-2009, 04:27 PM
Just from a theoretical point of view, I wouldn't want to use a protein during a workout since blood flow is directed towards the muscles and digestion is reduced. If I were going to use something intra-workout it would be either aminos or highly hydrolyzed proteins (preferably di and tripeptides).

The other question is, I have seen information on a PRE-workout drink doubling protein synthesis vs. the same composition post-workout drink. Why wouldn't you just take the drink PRE-workout, since even pure glucose takes a little time to really get into the blood. Isn't it like 20-30 mins to peak?

Well put. Always wondered the same thing. If the purpose of a pre training drink is to have nutrients available for the session as well as the jump start the recovery process, unless you are doing hard sessions over 3hours, those nutrients from the pre training drink should still be available.

Sorry for restating what you wrote already.

One think that just came to mind. Exercise can create a state of ketosis, but if I understand the process properly, it's only from the fasted state. So even then, a pre training drink should have you covered.

freak
12-01-2009, 12:11 AM
my question is, wouldnt it just be easier to eat a meal consisting of carbs, proteins and fats 1-2 hours pre-w/o?

Frosty
12-01-2009, 12:58 AM
my question is, wouldnt it just be easier to eat a meal consisting of carbs, proteins and fats 1-2 hours pre-w/o?

Sorry for being lazy and not reading, but perhaps I'm mistaken thinking that a lot of these studies are done from a fasted state?

NPCKnight
12-01-2009, 01:51 AM
Natron raises a good point. Discomfort during workout is a very real thing...SOMETIMES. It depends on many factors from day to day. Things as simple as how quickly you ingest it to how big your sips are to how strenuous your workout is and many other factors.

However, I do consume a intra workout shake during training. I use only Vitargo or Karbolyn right now with BCAA(protein that doesnt need to be digested), creatine, and occasional glutamine or electrolyte powder. Carbs are ususally 50-75g in this shake, aminos 30-40g, creatine 5-10g, etc.

As far as 'wouldnt it be easier to just consume a meal with protein fats and carbs hrs before'.... youre completely missing the point. We are talking about STIMULATING anabolism very precisely with nutrients and a surge in insulin while your working out. Being precise is the reason you have to use an exact amount and a very quick 'sugar' that has a high rate of gastric emptying(preferably).

Frosty
12-01-2009, 01:59 AM
We are talking about STIMULATING anabolism very precisely with nutrients and a surge in insulin while your working out. Being precise is the reason you have to use an exact amount and a very quick 'sugar' that has a high rate of gastric emptying(preferably).

Okay I'm not at all doubting that you can reduce protein breakdown and actually stimulate protein synthesis more with pre/during workout shakes.

The question is, at the end of the day (literally), have you actually added more lean mass with these shakes vs. just a PWO shake?

The concern I have is measuring very transient protein synthesis. What if you just ate a bit more food in the PWO period? Couldn't you end up with the same end result? Because personally I'd rather eat more food than drink nasty peri-workout concoctions.

Is recovery actually any faster than just a PWO shake and more food?

NPCKnight
12-01-2009, 02:28 AM
Yes I believe it is a better choice and ofcourse it needs to be consistently done. I am a believer in Milos' explanation of events that occur during 'hyperemia'.

I do not believe the simplicity of more food post workout being the same is a sound assumption. I think the efficiency for nutrient uptake is lowered the further you get from the workout....yet during a workout, the nutrient uptake and utilization is unmatched.

Frosty
12-01-2009, 03:08 AM
I have to admit that with the type of training I've taken a liking to, I've lost a lot of interest in the whole peri-workout nutrition thing. I over-reach and then rest and recover. I'm not gaining weight when I train...if anything losing it, and I gain the weight and strength on my off days. I see the results with food and rest on the off days, not around my training.

However that's not to say that perhaps the addition of better peri-workout nutrition might improve the results. That's why I'm here asking questions about all this and its application. The studies don't elicit more than a "huh" from me unless there are questions answered as to its application.

Abraxas
12-01-2009, 04:33 AM
I have to admit that with the type of training I've taken a liking to, I've lost a lot of interest in the whole peri-workout nutrition thing. I over-reach and then rest and recover. I'm not gaining weight when I train...if anything losing it, and I gain the weight and strength on my off days. I see the results with food and rest on the off days, not around my training.

However that's not to say that perhaps the addition of better peri-workout nutrition might improve the results. That's why I'm here asking questions about all this and its application. The studies don't elicit more than a "huh" from me unless there are questions answered as to its application.

Frosty,let me ask you a question,instead of me doing the talking.

Howmuch mass will any potential benefit from peri workout illicit?

Better yet If you have person A and person B ,person A would only do pre workout nutrition,and person B would only do post workout nutrition.

Every other variables would be exactly the same.

They both eat like animals,train like animals,they do everything else ''right''.

Would there be any difference in terms of mass gained between the 2 within, lets say a year?

Frosty
12-01-2009, 04:36 AM
Frosty,let me ask you a question,instead of me doing the talking.

Howmuch mass will any potential benefit from peri workout illicit?

Better yet If you have person A and person B ,person A would only do pre workout nutrition,and person B would only do post workout nutrition.

Every other variables would be exactly the same.

They both eat like animals,train like animals,they do everything else ''right''.

Would there be any difference in terms of mass gained between the 2 within, lets say a year?

I have no idea! I don't think that information exists.

Abraxas
12-01-2009, 05:04 AM
I have no idea! I don't think that information exists.

Fair enough,but based on your current knowledge on everything revolving the matter,would you dare to make a educated guess or assumption?

(If anyone else would like to break the question down for me,is also welcome.)

juggernaut
12-01-2009, 06:06 AM
Fair enough,but based on your current knowledge on everything revolving the matter,would you dare to make a educated guess or assumption?

(If anyone else would like to break the question down for me,is also welcome.)
the problem I foresee in obtaining a definitive answer is that you are using too many stipulations for one answer. Also, everyone's metabolism is different.

I have a client I train with a shit metabolism. He tried everything. His diet is on, his training is well-guided, but he couldn't gain one pound to save his life. I had a brain fart and told him to add an intra workout drink of dlluted whey and 15g of dex. I was shocked! He has gained a steady half pound of what appears to be muscle each week since putting him on this. Nothing else changed in his diet. If I didnt see it with my own eyes, I wouldnt believe it.

Abraxas
12-01-2009, 06:40 AM
the problem I foresee in obtaining a definitive answer is that you are using too many stipulations for one answer. Also, everyone's metabolism is different.

I have a client I train with a shit metabolism. He tried everything. His diet is on, his training is well-guided, but he couldn't gain one pound to save his life. I had a brain fart and told him to add an intra workout drink of dlluted whey and 15g of dex. I was shocked! He has gained a steady half pound of what appears to be muscle each week since putting him on this. Nothing else changed in his diet. If I didnt see it with my own eyes, I wouldnt believe it.

Its more likely due the some increase of calories or a placebo effect,if he isnt gaining weight he isnt eating enough period.

I have never witnessed anything of a sort,and have a hard time believing the story you put fort.

Doesnt matter if his metabolism is faster then a ferrari,when you figure out the guys total energy expenditure based on his metabolism and lifestyle,make him exceed the cals he burns and your done.

juggernaut
12-01-2009, 07:29 AM
Its more likely due the some increase of calories or a placebo effect,if he isnt gaining weight he isnt eating enough period.

I have never witnessed anything of a sort,and have a hard time believing the story you put fort.
Personally, I dont really give a fuck what you put "fort".

Doesnt matter if his metabolism is faster then a ferrari,when you figure out the guys total energy expenditure based on his metabolism and lifestyle,make him exceed the cals he burns and your done. take the little fucking chip off your shoulder and come back to reality.

Abraxas
12-01-2009, 08:18 AM
take the little fucking chip off your shoulder and come back to reality.

Chip of my shoulder???:confused:

I thought we were in a discussion,can I not have doubts about someones claim?

First you asked a question,and now you go out of you way claiming you know the answer anyway,and dont care if someone has a different opinion.

Dont project your own thoughts and line of thinking on me please thank you.

Im done with this thread.

I sincerely hope you find the answers your looking for.:flowers:

NPCKnight
12-01-2009, 08:30 AM
I cannot believe some of you are questioning the effect or intelligent practice of creating an environment for NUTRIENT RICH blood during your workout with all the vital parts that dont require much if any digestion(bcaa, creatine, etc) and using an Insulin spike to shuttle these nutrients with a carb with high gastric emptying rate requiring little to no digestion. it baffles me. Insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body, is the storage hormone, and shuts off catabolicism.

30-80g carbs intra workout with 30-40g bcaa, 5-10g creatine is AMAZING.

How could you even POSSIBLY argue against this kind of protocol?

bushmaster
12-01-2009, 08:53 AM
I cannot believe some of you are questioning the effect or intelligent practice of creating an environment for NUTRIENT RICH blood during your workout with all the vital parts that dont require much if any digestion(bcaa, creatine, etc) and using an Insulin spike to shuttle these nutrients with a carb with high gastric emptying rate requiring little to no digestion. it baffles me. Insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body, is the storage hormone, and shuts off catabolicism.

30-80g carbs intra workout with 30-40g bcaa, 5-10g creatine is AMAZING.

How could you even POSSIBLY argue against this kind of protocol?
I agree 100% but I also add Leucine, COQ10 and Phosphatedyl serine to that mix.

juggernaut
12-01-2009, 09:15 AM
bush, what kind of leucine do you get and how much do you use?

bushmaster
12-01-2009, 09:35 AM
I get mine from www.tmuscle.com (http://www.tmuscle.com) store and i use 5g 3x a day.

natron
12-01-2009, 11:45 AM
I agree 100% but I also add Leucine, COQ10 and Phosphatedyl serine to that mix.

Whats the reasoning behind CoQ10 and phosphadylserine (sp)??

natron
12-01-2009, 11:47 AM
I should mention to that I do use 5 grams of leucine pre workout, my last meal is about 2 hours before training, I take leucine about 20 minutes before I train.

NPCKNIGHT, I see no problems with your protocol at all, In fact I think it's wise. However, I could not train on that full a stomach. That is just too much for me.

bushmaster
12-01-2009, 12:01 PM
Whats the reasoning behind CoQ10 and phosphadylserine (sp)??
I use CoQ10 for its anti-oxidant properties and some articles I read said some studies showed it had a role on carb metabolism (mostly for heart health).

PS is used for general well being, read below.

Phosphatidylserine has been demonstrated to speed up recovery, prevent muscle soreness, improve well-being, and might possess ergogenic properties in athletes involved in cycling, weight training and endurance running. Soy-PS, in a dose dependent manner (400 mg), has been reported to be an effective supplement for combating exercise-induced stress by blunting the exercise-induced increase in cortisol levels.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylserine#cite_note-J.C3.A4ger_2007-2) PS supplementation promotes a desirable hormonal balance for athletes and might attenuate the physiological deterioration that accompanies overtraining and/or overstretching.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylserine#cite_note-Starks_2008-3) In recent studies, PS has been shown to enhance mood in a cohort of young people during mental stress and to improve accuracy during tee-off by increasing the stress resistance of golfers.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylserine#cite_note-J.C3.A4ger_2007b-4)

natron
12-01-2009, 12:23 PM
I use CoQ10 for its anti-oxidant properties and some articles I read said some studies showed it had a role on carb metabolism (mostly for heart health).

PS is used for general well being, read below.

Phosphatidylserine has been demonstrated to speed up recovery, prevent muscle soreness, improve well-being, and might possess ergogenic properties in athletes involved in cycling, weight training and endurance running. Soy-PS, in a dose dependent manner (400 mg), has been reported to be an effective supplement for combating exercise-induced stress by blunting the exercise-induced increase in cortisol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol) levels.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylserine#cite_note-J.C3.A4ger_2007-2) PS supplementation promotes a desirable hormonal balance for athletes and might attenuate the physiological deterioration that accompanies overtraining and/or overstretching.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylserine#cite_note-Starks_2008-3) In recent studies, PS has been shown to enhance mood in a cohort of young people during mental stress and to improve accuracy during tee-off by increasing the stress resistance of golfers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf).[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylserine#cite_note-J.C3.A4ger_2007b-4)

Thanks, I was aware of potential benefits, just wanted to know your reasoning.

Most studies I've read for PS are at 800mg/day, at that point it becomes pretty expensive for a supplement with a minor ability to help with ones physique.

natron
12-01-2009, 12:44 PM
O.K., here is some thread jacking.

a few questions here.

1. Is intra workout nutrition as effective a pre workout/post workout nutrition?

2. Is any combination of three more effective than any singular method?

3. How would any of these protocols affect ones calorie/macro goals?

4. Why is Natron so huge and ripped when he keeps it simple with post workout nutrition in relatively low doses in comparison to most? lol

I'm just going to grab one companies pre/intra/post suggestions, and see what kind of macro breakdown there would be. (not that this is across the board, but it may help me describe my problem here)

Muscle Milk (I know it's fairly popular)

Monster Milk 1.5-2 hours before training 350 calories, 50 grams protein, 80 grams fat
Monster Pump 10-15 minutes before training 100 cals, 25 grams carbs, 2 grams BCAAS
Monster Maize Intra workout 160 cals, 40 grams carbs
Monster Amino 10-15 mins post workout 125 cals, 30 grams carbs, 4.75 grams BCAAS
Monster Milk 30-90 minutes post workout 350 cals, 50 grams protein, 80 grams fat

Total calories 1,085
Total protein 107 grams
Total carbs 167 grams (also 36 per serving as monster milk included)
Total fat 160 grams

Now, besides the point of what is the most effective.

If you include a regiment like this, look at the macro breakdown. It's absolutely rediculous. This is not even inculding food for fack sakes. So obviously a protocol like this is completely out of the question for anyone unless doing a quite impressive bulk.

bushmaster
12-01-2009, 12:50 PM
Well for me my calories are much higher and my carb intake for the day is only based around my workout. Basically a TKD diet. So your numbers don't look to ridiculout to me as thats a bulk of my macros. Carbs are really not needed throughout the rest of the day so the rest of my meals consist of pro/fat.

bushmaster
12-01-2009, 12:52 PM
My diet macros are here Bushmaster's Journal - RX Muscle Forums

Frosty
12-01-2009, 01:34 PM
O.K., here is some thread jacking.

a few questions here.

1. Is intra workout nutrition as effective a pre workout/post workout nutrition?

2. Is any combination of three more effective than any singular method?

3. How would any of these protocols affect ones calorie/macro goals?

4. Why is Natron so huge and ripped when he keeps it simple with post workout nutrition in relatively low doses in comparison to most? lol

I'm just going to grab one companies pre/intra/post suggestions, and see what kind of macro breakdown there would be. (not that this is across the board, but it may help me describe my problem here)

Muscle Milk (I know it's fairly popular)

Monster Milk 1.5-2 hours before training 350 calories, 50 grams protein, 80 grams fat
Monster Pump 10-15 minutes before training 100 cals, 25 grams carbs, 2 grams BCAAS
Monster Maize Intra workout 160 cals, 40 grams carbs
Monster Amino 10-15 mins post workout 125 cals, 30 grams carbs, 4.75 grams BCAAS
Monster Milk 30-90 minutes post workout 350 cals, 50 grams protein, 80 grams fat

Total calories 1,085
Total protein 107 grams
Total carbs 167 grams (also 36 per serving as monster milk included)
Total fat 160 grams

Now, besides the point of what is the most effective.

If you include a regiment like this, look at the macro breakdown. It's absolutely rediculous. This is not even inculding food for fack sakes. So obviously a protocol like this is completely out of the question for anyone unless doing a quite impressive bulk.


You'd have to be one big ass dude doing a lot of high rep volume work to need 167g of carbs! That sounds more like for an endurance athlete...like a cyclist or something training for hours.

And even as much as I like high protein for myself, 107g peri-workout is waaaay overkill.

Natron I think the reason you're getting results with what you do is that people tend to grossly over-estimate what they need for a workout. Most of us just simply don't train enough to warrant huge numbers. Your numbers are "normal" not small! We as a group suffer from the "more is better" mentality.

bushmaster
12-01-2009, 01:40 PM
You'd have to be one big ass dude doing a lot of high rep volume work to need 167g of carbs! That sounds more like for an endurance athlete...like a cyclist or something training for hours.

And even as much as I like high protein for myself, 107g peri-workout is waaaay overkill.

Natron I think the reason you're getting results with what you do is that people tend to grossly over-estimate what they need for a workout. Most of us just simply don't train enough to warrant huge numbers. Your numbers are "normal" not small! We as a group suffer from the "more is better" mentality.
I don't think everything he posted is peri workout. Isn't peri workout by definition just during your workout? If so he has posted a plan a few hrs before, during and post workout.

Frosty
12-01-2009, 01:51 PM
I don't think everything he posted is peri workout. Isn't peri workout by definition just during your workout? If so he has posted a plan a few hrs before, during and post workout.


Oops, brain fart. For the average guy it's still just about 100g peri-workout which is still too much for how most guys train and how big they are. I mean I like 3-6 reps so taking in 100g of carbs just doesn't make any sense for that.

bushmaster
12-01-2009, 02:06 PM
Oops, brain fart. For the average guy it's still just about 100g peri-workout which is still too much for how most guys train and how big they are. I mean I like 3-6 reps so taking in 100g of carbs just doesn't make any sense for that.
How do you feel about someone like me taking in that many carbs, 110g to be exact? Keep in mind this is the only carbs I take in all day besides trace carbs. Also you would have to know exactly what this guy is doing. If he's taking Slin its a whole different story!

Frosty
12-01-2009, 03:08 PM
How do you feel about someone like me taking in that many carbs, 110g to be exact? Keep in mind this is the only carbs I take in all day besides trace carbs. Also you would have to know exactly what this guy is doing. If he's taking Slin its a whole different story!


Well it depends. How much lean mass do you have? What would be your average rep range you use? How many sets are you doing?

I personally like Poliquin's recommendations because the numbers are pretty realistic. However I wouldn't apply this if you're doing sets of 3 for example:

Z=(0.5307+0.00165*x)*y

where,
z is carbs needed,
x is reps performed
y is lean body mass in kg

(This is a linear fit I had done for Poliquins recommendations)

bushmaster
12-01-2009, 03:15 PM
Well it depends. How much lean mass do you have? What would be your average rep range you use? How many sets are you doing?

I personally like Poliquin's recommendations because the numbers are pretty realistic. However I wouldn't apply this if you're doing sets of 3 for example:

Z=(0.5307+0.00165*x)*y

where,
z is carbs needed,
x is reps performed
y is lean body mass in kg

(This is a linear fit I had done for Poliquins recommendations)
According to your equation I would need give or take 40g carbs if I did 5 reps at 72.7kg lbm? My questions were more rhetorical to show that with the usage of slin/gh you can definitely use much more carbs with less spillover opposed to a nattie.

natron
12-01-2009, 03:27 PM
Oops, brain fart. For the average guy it's still just about 100g peri-workout which is still too much for how most guys train and how big they are. I mean I like 3-6 reps so taking in 100g of carbs just doesn't make any sense for that.

Well part of my post is meant to show how ludicrous supplementation has gotten.

Again, the serious questions here are.

how do pre/intra/post workout nutrition effect anabolism/recovery?

are they more effective alone? or in combination?

what doses are most effective for different goals, macros?

As these questions are asked, everyone should realize that it would take serious study to develope answers, mainly because of a literal shit ton of variables.

I think my method works because It's based on science, it's not excessive, it meets my macro needs, its developed towards my training/cardio.

Now, is it optimal? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm leading towards it being very close to optimal for me and my goals, as I have no reason to believe it not to be. After all, I'm getting leaner, I'm gaining muscle, my endurance is steadily increasing. I'm not seeing symptoms of overtraining etc.

natron
12-01-2009, 03:31 PM
According to your equation I would need give or take 40g carbs if I did 5 reps at 72.7kg lbm? My questions were more rhetorical to show that with the usage of slin/gh you can definitely use much more carbs with less spillover opposed to a nattie.

A perfect example of variables to this discussion.

I don't think anyones supplemental advice here is optimal for anyone other than themselves (and thats if they are in tune to their body, training/cardio, diet/nutrition, drug use, illness/disease etc)

Anther reason I believe in my approach. It's simple to tailor and change until you see optimal benefits. You can change it on the spot with your goals, when they change from cutting to bilking for example. The supplements I used are proven effective for the goals trying to be acheived. They are affordable for long term use, and readily available.

win=win=win=win.

I see no losing with the simplicity of my approach.

Frosty
12-01-2009, 03:50 PM
According to your equation I would need give or take 40g carbs if I did 5 reps at 72.7kg lbm? My questions were more rhetorical to show that with the usage of slin/gh you can definitely use much more carbs with less spillover opposed to a nattie.

I admit the limitations of the linear fit. It's not very good for very low numbers. If your training volume is very low, I'd skip the carbs completely and just do whey.

Frosty
12-01-2009, 04:24 PM
I think my main point is that often we over-estimate the carbohydrate requirements for the kind of workouts we generally do.

I mean you also have to consider differences in metabolisms. I'm not a carb guy, so if I even use carbs around workout times, it's not large amounts (<50g). Now some skinny guy type with a fast metabolism struggling to add mass? That may be an entirely different scenario.

natron
12-01-2009, 04:33 PM
I think my main point is that often we over-estimate the carbohydrate requirements for the kind of workouts we generally do.

I mean you also have to consider differences in metabolisms. I'm not a carb guy, so if I even use carbs around workout times, it's not large amounts (<50g). Now some skinny guy type with a fast metabolism struggling to add mass? That may be an entirely different scenario.

Part of my point as well.

Also why my recommendations are awesome!

change the dosage per requirements on the spot, no extra supplements required.

I can even tailor it per a high volume workout , or a lower volume/heavier workout.

I've controlled some variable quite efficiently, and easily.

juggernaut
12-01-2009, 05:50 PM
I think my main point is that often we over-estimate the carbohydrate requirements for the kind of workouts we generally do.

I mean you also have to consider differences in metabolisms. I'm not a carb guy, so if I even use carbs around workout times, it's not large amounts (<50g). Now some skinny guy type with a fast metabolism struggling to add mass? That may be an entirely different scenario.
I'm the same way. I prefer using about 25-50g of crbs post workout, but will enjoy a tsp of honey and salt in my whey/creatine before I train. I just dont understand why or how the scientific community is making this a major issue if there are paltry results for lifters.

juggernaut
12-01-2009, 06:18 PM
I cannot believe some of you are questioning the effect or intelligent practice of creating an environment for NUTRIENT RICH blood during your workout with all the vital parts that dont require much if any digestion(bcaa, creatine, etc) and using an Insulin spike to shuttle these nutrients with a carb with high gastric emptying rate requiring little to no digestion. it baffles me. Insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body, is the storage hormone, and shuts off catabolicism.

30-80g carbs intra workout with 30-40g bcaa, 5-10g creatine is AMAZING.

How could you even POSSIBLY argue against this kind of protocol?
This sounds truly wise. I may do this in the weeks to come. Tell me this, 30-80g of what type of carb? A mix as in oatmeal/whole grain cereal/brown rice and a fast carb like dex?

natron
12-01-2009, 07:06 PM
NPC, 30-40 grams of BCAA's???

Thats one fuck of a whopping dose

NPCKnight
12-01-2009, 07:51 PM
Intra workout drinks will promote more anabolism than recovery in my opinion. I think recovery MAY be very similar to just feeding yourself sufficiently pre and post workout, but intra is def geared towards promoted anabolism.

NPCKnight
12-01-2009, 07:55 PM
This sounds truly wise. I may do this in the weeks to come. Tell me this, 30-80g of what type of carb? A mix as in oatmeal/whole grain cereal/brown rice and a fast carb like dex?

absolutely not. if only going 30g or so I would use dextrose perhaps, but I perfer using Vitargo or Karbolyn. NO WAXY MAIZE.
Vitargo is very expensive...Karbolyn is more reasonable. There are both the quickest carbs that I find to have a very high gastric emptying rate. Either way...you dont down the shake after a set or two....you sip it throughout, perhaps drinking up to half of it at the start of your workout....the rest is for sipping on.

Problem with 70-80g of dextrose is often it will sit in your stomach for a while which can create discomfort.

NPCKnight
12-01-2009, 07:57 PM
NPC, 30-40 grams of BCAA's???

Thats one fuck of a whopping dose

ya, obviously get powdered and not pills.

juggernaut
12-01-2009, 08:02 PM
ya, obviously get powdered and not pills.
hah

natron
12-01-2009, 08:23 PM
ya, obviously get powdered and not pills.

Have you read Laynes research on protein synthesis and BCAA's?

It is concluded that flooding the body with protein causes a "ceiling" in which protein synthesis occurs.

Elevated aminos over 5 hours only caused protein synthesis over 3 hours, not 5 hours.

I agree with him and believe in larger amounts of protein/carbs with fewer frequency ie. every 6 hours. But also including a leucine rish BCAA product perhaps twice per day in between meals, or before training.

With that said, I would have to assume that mass ingestion of protein/carbs/BCAA's at some point is only contributing via caloric intake, and not via increased protein synthesis/recovery.

In other words, very expensive extra calories.

juggernaut
12-01-2009, 08:26 PM
I wonder if this also applies to AAS. Layne, as good as he is, is usually aiming towards natty methods. No problem with that, but is the theory flawed because when it comes to AAS users such as myself and others who use?


Have you read Laynes research on protein synthesis and BCAA's?

It is concluded that flooding the body with protein causes a "ceiling" in which protein synthesis occurs.

Elevated aminos over 5 hours only caused protein synthesis over 3 hours, not 5 hours.

I agree with him and believe in larger amounts of protein/carbs with fewer frequency ie. every 6 hours. But also including a leucine rish BCAA product perhaps twice per day in between meals, or before training.

With that said, I would have to assume that mass ingestion of protein/carbs/BCAA's at some point is only contributing via caloric intake, and not via increased protein synthesis/recovery.

In other words, very expensive extra calories.

NPCKnight
12-01-2009, 08:30 PM
I often dont include any sort of glutamine because I have been told that it will compete for amino uptake.

bushmaster
12-01-2009, 08:35 PM
I think my main point is that often we over-estimate the carbohydrate requirements for the kind of workouts we generally do.

I mean you also have to consider differences in metabolisms. I'm not a carb guy, so if I even use carbs around workout times, it's not large amounts (<50g). Now some skinny guy type with a fast metabolism struggling to add mass? That may be an entirely different scenario.


Part of my point as well.

Also why my recommendations are awesome!

change the dosage per requirements on the spot, no extra supplements required.

I can even tailor it per a high volume workout , or a lower volume/heavier workout.

I've controlled some variable quite efficiently, and easily.
I also agree but I usually start a little high, started at around 150g this bulk and have since lowered it to 110g and if I gain too much fat will just lower it again. I think most just ignore what the mirror tells them and try to follow cookie cutter diets. Diets are not one style fits all!

bushmaster
12-01-2009, 08:37 PM
Intra workout drinks will promote more anabolism than recovery in my opinion. I think recovery MAY be very similar to just feeding yourself sufficiently pre and post workout, but intra is def geared towards promoted anabolism.
Good point and with Slin in the mix say hello to large gains! I eat 2hrs pre, 1/2hr pre, intra and post.

natron
12-01-2009, 08:37 PM
I often dont include any sort of glutamine because I have been told that it will compete for amino uptake.

The science behind glutamine suggests that it is mainly converted into a simple sugar, like dextrose, only 30 times the cost. Stay away from glutamine.

natron
12-01-2009, 08:39 PM
I wonder if this also applies to AAS. Layne, as good as he is, is usually aiming towards natty methods. No problem with that, but is the theory flawed because when it comes to AAS users such as myself and others who use?

This is true, however I'd still suggest there is a ceiling, and would like to see this tested as well, with say 600mg of test. But that probably not happening anytime soon.

Once again, this proves what I've said before, there is a literal fuckwad of variables.

I'd suggest people find a program that works for them that is affordable.

juggernaut
12-01-2009, 10:16 PM
I'm on 500mg f test right now for the next 12 weeks; want me too?

natron
12-01-2009, 10:21 PM
I'm on 500mg f test right now for the next 12 weeks; want me too?

That would be great, but what exactly are you going to test?

You have no equipement to use, and no baseline measurements to base a decision off of.

Frosty
12-01-2009, 10:21 PM
Have you read Laynes research on protein synthesis and BCAA's?

It is concluded that flooding the body with protein causes a "ceiling" in which protein synthesis occurs.

Elevated aminos over 5 hours only caused protein synthesis over 3 hours, not 5 hours.

I agree with him and believe in larger amounts of protein/carbs with fewer frequency ie. every 6 hours. But also including a leucine rish BCAA product perhaps twice per day in between meals, or before training.

With that said, I would have to assume that mass ingestion of protein/carbs/BCAA's at some point is only contributing via caloric intake, and not via increased protein synthesis/recovery.

In other words, very expensive extra calories.

I remember reading one study years ago about very large doses of BCAAs I think 30 mins pre and then post training and it showing impressive improvement in bench press strength. I wonder if anyone remembers this or would be less lazy than me to dig it up.

JayKurk
12-01-2009, 10:37 PM
absolutely not. if only going 30g or so I would use dextrose perhaps, but I perfer using Vitargo or Karbolyn. NO WAXY MAIZE.
Vitargo is very expensive...Karbolyn is more reasonable. There are both the quickest carbs that I find to have a very high gastric emptying rate. Either way...you dont down the shake after a set or two....you sip it throughout, perhaps drinking up to half of it at the start of your workout....the rest is for sipping on.

Problem with 70-80g of dextrose is often it will sit in your stomach for a while which can create discomfort.


why no waxy????

Frosty
12-01-2009, 10:39 PM
why no waxy????


Because it's not a fast carb.

NPCKnight
12-02-2009, 01:46 AM
LOL. Someone understands.

juggernaut
12-02-2009, 07:44 AM
I remember reading one study years ago about very large doses of BCAAs I think 30 mins pre and then post training and it showing impressive improvement in bench press strength. I wonder if anyone remembers this or would be less lazy than me to dig it up.
I'm going to try and dig that up, as I remember Layne Norton being a big proponent of this and reported on it. I just cant remember where I saw it.

natron
12-02-2009, 02:46 PM
I remember reading one study years ago about very large doses of BCAAs I think 30 mins pre and then post training and it showing impressive improvement in bench press strength. I wonder if anyone remembers this or would be less lazy than me to dig it up.

This wouldn't surprise me, however, once again it would be a cost vs. effects debate.

Frosty
12-02-2009, 06:34 PM
Natron, one addition to a PWO shake that I think would be a very good idea is a quality multivitamin if you take one. That way you can supply the body with micronutrients when it probably needs them the most.

natron
12-02-2009, 07:28 PM
Natron, one addition to a PWO shake that I think would be a very good idea is a quality multivitamin if you take one. That way you can supply the body with micronutrients when it probably needs them the most.

I dont use a multvitamin, but to those who do, yeah, i could see this as being the time to take it.

Frosty
12-02-2009, 07:55 PM
Or even supplemental magnesium....would be a great time to take along with dextrose.

juggernaut
12-02-2009, 08:43 PM
Or even supplemental magnesium....would be a great time to take along with dextrose.

Nice work Frosty. I pulled this up:

Journal of the American College of Nutrition, Vol 11, Issue 3 326-329, Copyright 1992 by American College of Nutrition
CLINICAL TRIAL


Effect of magnesium supplementation on strength training in humans

L. R. Brilla and T. F. Haley
Exercise and Sport Science Laboratory, Western Washington University, Bellingham 98225.
This study investigated the effects of dietary magnesium (Mg) on strength development during a double-blind, 7-week strength training program in 26 untrained subjects (14 = control, C and 12 = Mg supplemented, M), 18-30 years old. Subjects' 3-day diet records were analyzed and Mg content was calculated. C received a placebo and M received a supplement (Mg oxide) to bring Mg intake, including diet, to 8 mg/kg body weight/day. Body composition was assessed with bioelectrical impedance. Pre and post quadriceps torque (T) measurements were made with an Orthotron at 120 deg/sec. Each subject performed three sets of 10 reps, leg press and leg extension, three times/week. Both groups gained strength, however, results indicated a significant (p less than 0.05) increase for the M group were used as the covariate. M was consistently greater than C compared to the C group in absolute T, relative T adjusted for body weight (T/BWT), and relative T adjusted for lean body mass (T/LBM) when pre values(T: 211 vs 174 Nm; T/BWT: 3.07 vs 2.58 Nm/kg; T/LBM: 3.84 vs 3.36 Nm/kg). Conclusion: Significant differences in T gains after strength training were demonstrated in M vs C. Mg's role may be at the ribosomal level in protein synthesis.

Frosty
12-02-2009, 08:56 PM
Not only that, insulin is a handy tool for increasing intracellular magnesium levels, and dextrose accomplishes that nicely :)

Isn't it funny people get hard-ons for all these exotic supplements and they forget something simple like chelated magnesium??

juggernaut
12-02-2009, 08:58 PM
I was thinking the same damn thing. C and E are great for post workout as well. 1g o C and 800 IU of E

natron
12-02-2009, 09:36 PM
Not only that, insulin is a handy tool for increasing intracellular magnesium levels, and dextrose accomplishes that nicely :)

Isn't it funny people get hard-ons for all these exotic supplements and they forget something simple like chelated magnesium??

Hey Frosty, try powdered magnesium citrate? (i think it was, I forget) before bed.

Sure made me sleep well, almost like low dose benzo plus a muscle relaxant. Great stuff for those with anxiety related sleeping issues.

Now that I mention that, time to pick some more up I think.

Frosty
12-02-2009, 09:41 PM
I've used the powdered mag citrate. I'm using aspartate right now, for slight differences in the forms but also to see if bowel tolerance is better with aspartate, which I'm pretty sure it is. The only thing that sucks with mag citrate is that the doses have to be smaller since it has more of a laxative effect (hell it's sold in pharmacies as a laxative).

I like to use it when I carb load once a week. Some magnesium with each meal so all that insulin helps drive it into cells. Also use it before bed, too....450mg for one meal and 450mg for another meal before bed.

natron
12-02-2009, 09:46 PM
I've used the powdered mag citrate. I'm using aspartate right now, for slight differences in the forms but also to see if bowel tolerance is better with aspartate, which I'm pretty sure it is. The only thing that sucks with mag citrate is that the doses have to be smaller since it has more of a laxative effect (hell it's sold in pharmacies as a laxative).

I like to use it when I carb load once a week. Some magnesium with each meal so all that insulin helps drive it into cells. Also use it before bed, too....450mg for one meal and 450mg for another meal before bed.

Do you get a similar muscle relaxing/anti anxiety effect I mentioned?

Frosty
12-02-2009, 09:52 PM
Do you get a similar muscle relaxing/anti anxiety effect I mentioned?

I never noticed anything as significant as you mentioned. I've never noticed it as having any effect that stands out. Then again caffeine doesn't get me really wired, either.

natron
12-02-2009, 09:54 PM
I never noticed anything as significant as you mentioned. I've never noticed it as having any effect that stands out. Then again caffeine doesn't get me really wired, either.

Could be dose dependant though, I seem t oremember a pretty high dose? I'll see if I can find the product online, it was called natralCalm or something along that line

Here it is, 650mg/serving

http://www.calmnatural.com/product/18340500001

Frosty
12-02-2009, 09:57 PM
Could be dose dependant though, I seem t oremember a pretty high dose? I'll see if I can find the product online, it was called natralCalm or something along that line

Here it is, 650mg/serving

http://www.calmnatural.com/product/18340500001

It says it's pH balanced....what do they add? If it's pH balanced that might be helping bowel tolerance.

natron
12-02-2009, 09:59 PM
It says it's pH balanced....what do they add? If it's pH balanced that might be helping bowel tolerance.

To be honest its probably marketing bullshit. I got mine for free from a company rep that came through my work years ago.

NPCKnight
12-03-2009, 04:27 AM
I occasionally do have issues where I go hypo with these intra workout drinks. Really fucks me up for short periods of time. I need to figure out whats goin on.

(note) i do not use exogenous insulin.

juggernaut
12-03-2009, 09:22 AM
Regarding the leucine issue;

Leucine supplementation and serum amino acids, testosterone, cortisol and growth hormone in male power athletes during training. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9239992?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2)

CONCLUSIONS: The present findings indicate that on a daily protein intake of 1.26 g/kg body weight the serum concentrations of amino acids are lowered considerably and earlier than the decrease in the serum testosterone concentration during the training season in adult male power athletes. The leucine supplementation of 50 mg/kg body weight per day appears to prevent the decrease in the serum leucine concentration during intensive training.


I couldnt find the topic Frosty was referring to, but this is pretty interesting stuff.

Frosty
12-03-2009, 12:53 PM
Regarding the leucine issue;

Leucine supplementation and serum amino acids, testosterone, cortisol and growth hormone in male power athletes during training. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9239992?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2)

CONCLUSIONS: The present findings indicate that on a daily protein intake of 1.26 g/kg body weight the serum concentrations of amino acids are lowered considerably and earlier than the decrease in the serum testosterone concentration during the training season in adult male power athletes. The leucine supplementation of 50 mg/kg body weight per day appears to prevent the decrease in the serum leucine concentration during intensive training.


I couldnt find the topic Frosty was referring to, but this is pretty interesting stuff.


Hmmm, I eat 3.5 times that much protein when gaining weight. Perhaps this might suggest that higher protein intakes are a good thing when training hard.

juggernaut
12-03-2009, 01:16 PM
Just read a post from Esplinaldo that people on AAS should use about 2g per LBM.