Martin Schoeller, artist or villain?

[Curt James]

Those photos were taken for a specific effect. Stark portraits.

Here's Kim Harris by photographer, Martin Schoeller.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/kimharris.jpg

And Vicki Nixon. I heard him ask Vicki not to smile. Purchase "Beyond the Pain: The Vick Nixon Story" to see the clip of Schoeller photographing Nixon.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/vickinixon.jpg

Here's Lenda.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/lendamurray.jpg

Schoeller's photo of Andre Agassi was used on the tennis star's autobiograpy cover.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/agassicover.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/andreagassi.jpg

Here's Angelina Jolie from the same exhibit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/angelinajolie2004.jpg

Are Schoeller's photos too stark? Do you consider them art or simply unflattering?

[AnglicanBeachParty]

I consider Schoeller an artist. However, I think his style tends to de-personalize his subjects. He is (in my opinion) treating the faces as landscapes more than as human faces.

As to whether he is a villain or not, I think that hinges on how forthcoming and honest he was with the women before he photographed them.

I bought the book, and one of the first things I noticed was that Lenda Murray managed to get in a little smirk of a smile (i.e., smiling with one half of her mouth). I don't think Schoeller would have accepted that in his later subjects, but Lenda was photographed by Martin several years earlier than most of the other subjects, and I think he probably never got a chance to try again for a totally non-smiling photo of her.

[sassy69]

I consider Schoeller an artist. However, I think his style tends to de-personalize his subjects. He is (in my opinion) treating the faces as landscapes more than as human faces.

As to whether he is a villain or not, I think that hinges on how forthcoming and honest he was with the women before he photographed them.

I bought the book, and one of the first things I noticed was that Lenda Murray managed to get in a little smirk of a smile (i.e., smiling with one half of her mouth). I don't think Schoeller would have accepted that in his later subjects, but Lenda was photographed by Martin several years earlier than most of the other subjects, and I think he probably never got a chance to try again for a totally non-smiling photo of her.

Yep.

I think this is one of those presentations where you need to know the context - these photos are often posted to start the "looks too manly" FBB-bashing discussions, which really isn't a fair representation of FBBs. I love that Lenda got in an expression - I almost feel the power returning to her, instead of being in the hands of the photographer forcing a certain look.

[Sledge]

Seems he wants pics devoid of character, expression or emotion. The 3 FBBs do show character if not expression and emotion though.

[Ibarramedia]

http://www.siouxcountry.com/showthread.php?t=9807&page=2&highlight=martin+schoeller

Just curious Curt, Did you see the discussion from the link above? It is interesting that in one year's time some of the same people who agreed or liked his work were not liking it one year later. I'm not saying they don't have a right to change their mind. It is just interesting that they did for whatever reason.

What do you think about Joachim Ladefoged's work?

http://www.joachimladefoged.com/#/gallery/5/34/ (http://www.joachimladefoged.com/#/gallery/5/34/)

[debbiebramwell]

Hated the book. I had no idea what was going on when I was asked to do this shoot at my show. I sat in the middle of these bright lights told not to make any expression. Thank god my pic wasnt horrible but it certainly was not me at all.I feel bad for every woman in the book. If I would have known what it was for and how it was going to turn out I wouldnt have done it. This book doesnt show him being an artist if you ask me.

[debbiebramwell]

http://www.siouxcountry.com/showthread.php?t=9807&page=2&highlight=martin+schoeller

Just curious Curt, Did you see the discussion from the link above? It is interesting that in one year's time some of the same people who agreed or liked his work were not liking it one year later. I'm not saying they don't have a right to change their mind. It is just interesting that they did for whatever reason.

What do you think about Joachim Ladefoged's work?

http://www.joachimladefoged.com/#/gallery/5/34/ (http://www.joachimladefoged.com/#/gallery/5/34/)


his pics look horrible:confused:

[Curt James]

http://www.siouxcountry.com/showthread.php?t=9807&page=2&highlight=martin+schoeller

Just curious Curt, Did you see the discussion from the link above? It is interesting that in one year's time some of the same people who agreed or liked his work were not liking it one year later. I'm not saying they don't have a right to change their mind. It is just interesting that they did for whatever reason.

What do you think about Joachim Ladefoged's work?

http://www.joachimladefoged.com/#/gallery/5/34/ (http://www.joachimladefoged.com/#/gallery/5/34/)

I'm not on Sioux's site very much, but I do have a membership there. It's a great site, just don't have the time (aren't they lucky? :D)!

People have their own opinion and then often change that opinion to fit in with a group, their friends, or, yes, just because they change their mind, reconsidered the subject independent of anyone's opinion. I agree that it's interesting. And I'd love to know their motivation or why they changed their opinion.

I've seen Ladefoged's photos. I'm no art historian or art critic, but I will say that I like his work and I do agree with ABP about Schoeller treating the face as a landscape rather than as a personality.

[Sledge]

Just looking at the few pics I've just looked at I don't know if he's an artist. Doesn't an artist need to express something and show some imagination. All the photos I've seen look the same. I get the concept of no expression but pic after pic of no expression is just repeating the same work over and over again.

[Curt James]

Hated the book. I had no idea what was going on when I was asked to do this shoot at my show. I sat in the middle of these bright lights told not to make any expression. Thank god my pic wasnt horrible but it certainly was not me at all.I feel bad for every woman in the book. If I would have known what it was for and how it was going to turn out I wouldnt have done it. This book doesnt show him being an artist if you ask me.

He really could have shared his vision or approach with the models. Many "artists" are arrogant elitists. I've always been a cartoonist, so you won't see me having too many high art conversations. I love art history, but have never been great at memorizing dates or details. I can appreciate art, but not worth much for aesthetic discussion, etc.

One thing the photographer did was shine a spotlight on the ladies and created or instigated a discussion. People will become curious about the photos and hopefully search for more information on the sport, the women, and images of female physique competitors.

[Ibarramedia]

I'm not on Sioux's site very much, but I do have a membership there. It's a great site, just don't have the time (aren't they lucky? :D)!

People have their own opinion and then often change that opinion to fit in with a group, their friends, or, yes, just because they change their mind, reconsidered the subject independent of anyone's opinion. I agree that it's interesting. And I'd love to know their motivation or why they changed their opinion.

I've seen Ladefoged's photos. I'm no art historian or art critic, but I will say that I like his work and I do agree with ABP about Schoeller treating the face as a landscape rather than as a personality.


That is why I posted the link there so that you can peruse and see what I was talking about. Within that link, I linked to 3 or 4 other pertinent threads related to the discussion. I like your answer that I highlighted. Particularly intriguing was the commnet you made about some people changing their opinion to fit in with a group or friends. I'm not accusing them of such. I have no way of knowing after all, but the about face in comments one year later is intriguing to me. Within the link i provide are various other picture/coffee table books featuring FBBs. I would only acquire all of them simply because they feature fbbs.

[Curt James]

Just looking at the few pics I've just looked at I don't know if he's an artist. Doesn't an artist need to express something and show some imagination. All the photos I've seen look the same. I get the concept of no expression but pic after pic of no expression is just repeating the same work over and over again.

It's been known to happen. Look at Jackson Pollock. Painting after painting of what many would describe as "the same work over and over again."

http://images.google.com/images?q=jackson%20pollock

Andy Warhol? Repeating the same work over and over again.

http://larvalsubjects.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/andy-warhol-marilyn.jpg

http://www.salondeartedigital.com/images/Che%20Guevara%20(Andy%20Warhol).jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_T7tpohmyb7s/SYHQMyAiFxI/AAAAAAAAHS8/ct24bY7T5LA/s400/Andy-Warhol-Mickey-Mouse-8380.jpg

Repetition can definitely make an impact on an audience or get their attention.

[Curt James]

That is why I posted the link there so that you can peruse and see what I was talking about. Within that link, I linked to 3 or 4 other pertinent threads related to the discussion. I like your answer that I highlighted. Particularly intriguing was the commnet you made about some people changing their opinion to fit in with a group or friends. I'm not accusing them of such. I have no way of knowing after all, but the about face in comments one year later is intriguing to me. Within the link i provide are various other picture/coffee table books featuring FBBs. I would only acquire all of them simply because they feature fbbs.

I'm not either, but am curious about motivation.

I'll check the links. There are a number of books I'd like to take a look through.

:beerbang:

[Curt James]

I consider Schoeller an artist. However, I think his style tends to de-personalize his subjects. He is (in my opinion) treating the faces as landscapes more than as human faces.

As to whether he is a villain or not, I think that hinges on how forthcoming and honest he was with the women before he photographed them.

I bought the book, and one of the first things I noticed was that Lenda Murray managed to get in a little smirk of a smile (i.e., smiling with one half of her mouth). I don't think Schoeller would have accepted that in his later subjects, but Lenda was photographed by Martin several years earlier than most of the other subjects, and I think he probably never got a chance to try again for a totally non-smiling photo of her.

So his vision definitely changed. Originially he wasn't putting those limits on his models?

Vicki Nixon's session with Schoeller is documented in the Mike Pulcinella (of Raising the Bar fame) film "Beyond the Pain: The Vicki Nixon Story" and the photographer told her not to smile. She protested briefly, but he made an excuse without fully explaining his position.


Yep.

I think this is one of those presentations where you need to know the context - these photos are often posted to start the "looks too manly" FBB-bashing discussions, which really isn't a fair representation of FBBs. I love that Lenda got in an expression - I almost feel the power returning to her, instead of being in the hands of the photographer forcing a certain look.

He definitely forced the look on Nixon.


Seems he wants pics devoid of character, expression or emotion. The 3 FBBs do show character if not expression and emotion though.

X2 :beerbang:


Hated the book. I had no idea what was going on when I was asked to do this shoot at my show. I sat in the middle of these bright lights told not to make any expression. Thank god my pic wasnt horrible but it certainly was not me at all.I feel bad for every woman in the book. If I would have known what it was for and how it was going to turn out I wouldnt have done it. This book doesnt show him being an artist if you ask me.

His book would have been completely different if he hadn't almost tricked his models. He apparently wasn't forthcoming at all. It's unique at least. But, yeah, it's also cold and unapproachable.

I wonder if Schoeller has ever commented or responded to the models and audience members who were clearly disappointed/dissatisfied.

[Ibarramedia]

I'm not either, but am curious about motivation.

I'll check the links. There are a number of books I'd like to take a look through.

:beerbang:

Just in case some people changed their mind to fit in a group and join the bandwagon and not upset their friends, I wished they would really comment on how they really feel. If they don't like it , it's ok, if they like it, it's ok too. People have different opinions and no one's feeling will be hurt. Just keeping it real.

[Curt James]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/JoachimLadefogedslippers.jpg

Ladefoged's pics show personality and humor, but many are also on the stark side. I didn't look through all of his photos but seem to recall some topless images that were less than flattering.

And does all artwork have to be flattering?

I've worked as a caricature artist, but have always tried to create kind cartoons. Many caricature artists really exaggerate facial features and characteristics in the most cruel ways possible, imo. Just depends on the person making those artistic decisions, whether they're operating a camera or a magic marker.

[Ibarramedia]

Looks like Martin Schoeller is back in the news again.


In these gorgeous, in your face portraits of female bodybuilders, Martin Schoeller poses a challenge to viewers... to think outside the conventional box of beauty we are sold every day. These strong women can be found writ large on the walls of the Hasted Hunt Kraeutler Gallery, through August 27.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new_york_events/galleries/female_bodybuilders_by_martin_schoeller_/female_bodybuilders_by_martin_schoeller_.html#ixzz 0wX3hXSkI


http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:LoadGallery(nextImage, false))


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http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body4.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:LoadGallery(nextImage, false))

[Ibarramedia]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body14.jpg (javascript:LoadGallery(nextImage, false))

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body15.jpg (javascript:LoadGallery(nextImage, false))

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[Ibarramedia]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body8.jpg (javascript:LoadGallery(nextImage, false))

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http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body2.jpg (javascript:LoadGallery(nextImage, false))


For an up close and personal view visit Hastead Hunt Kraeutler Gallery, 537 W. 24th St., NYC

[Curt James]

Look at you knocking the dust off this thread. :)

Again, I heard Schoeller ask Vicki Nixon not to smile. Purchase "Beyond the Pain: The Vick Nixon Story" to see the clip of him photographing Nixon.

Many of the ladies seemed to be able to show off their personality even within the mugshot starkness which Schoeller seemed to have as his goal.

Love this shot of Rivieccio.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body15.jpg

[Curt James]

Ibarramedia, is that Fannie Barrios?

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body2.jpg

Fannie Josefina Barrios was born in Caracas, Venezuela on May 30, 1964. She was the Venezuelan champion in 1997 and 1998. She earned her pro card in 1998 when she won a contest called Absolute Center of the Americas in San Salvador. Her professional debut was at the 1999 Jan Tana Classic. In 2000 she moved to Florida with her husband, Alex Ramirez, and her daughter, Johadynis. There, she worked as a personal trainer and chef in the Miami area. She was a two-time class winner at the Jan Tana Classic, winning the middleweight class in 2001 and the lightweight class in 2002. Her final contest was the 2005 New York Pro Championship on May 21, where she finished in third place.

On August 7, 2005, Fannie died at approximately 2 AM of an apparent stroke. She had spent the previous day helping out backstage at the NPC Southern States contest in Fort Lauderdale, where her husband was competing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_Barrios

Rest in Peace.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2005/under39_abig.jpg

[Tre]

Some shots were good, some were shit, most were meh.

LOVE the one of Nadia Nardi, though. Of the ones you posted here, hers is the most beautiful.

Bonny, Yaxeni, Annie, and C-Roth also look nice. Bonny's is really intriguing to me.

[Musclepapa John]

Coincidentally a recent review of this work suggested that the bodybuilding art as a whole was better than a celebrity series. I consider that something of a positive.

Art review
Martin Schoeller, “Female Bodybuilders”
Schoeller’s images of female bodybuilders out-muscle his celebrity portraits.

By Merrily Kerr

Hasted Hunt Kraeutler, through Aug 27


Can photos of babes in bikinis with big biceps be more than gratuitous? Martin Schoeller’s portraits of women bodybuilders pander to the inherent sensationalism of their topic, but also manage to transcend it, playing up deeply disconcerting contrasts between traits typically considered female (makeup, hair) and male (bulging muscles). He puts his subjects on pedestals as goddesses of discipline and self-control. By contrast, a second body of work largely deglamorizes the faces of celebrities who’ve agreed to pose for his flaw-baring lens.

In the former series, Schoeller magnifies his sitters’ bulk, framing them from the waist up in enormous 61.5" x 50" photos. The same women (e.g., Christine Roth, Carmella Cureton) appear on bodybuilding blogs and websites in more feminine—and, perhaps, objectifying—poses, but Schoeller’s gender-bending emphasis on pumped-up arms and abs showcases hard-won physiques that rebuff mainstream ideals of the female physique. Valerie Belin’s images of bodybuilders (who look so shiny as to seem practically chromed) come to mind, but Schoeller’s subjects are proud and unique.

In an ironic reversal, the best photos in the second series are of women with normal features and inflated personalities: an ethereal and unrecognizably dignified Paris Hilton; Sarah Palin, captured as a cipher constructed out of makeup. Most of these other portraits, however, are about as compelling as a driver’s-license picture. Marina Abramovic shows no trace of the pain and drive she’s poured into her career, while deadpan studies of Chris Rock and Jerry Seinfeld, clinical takes on Bill Murray and a dozy Kobe Bryant beg for something to make us take notice—be it brawn, beauty or brains.

http://newyork.timeout.com/articles/art/88005/martin-schoeller-female-bodybuilders-at-hasted-hunt-kraeutler-art-review

[Ibarramedia]

Curt and Tre', those are the same photographs from 2 and a half years ago. They initially had a showing in San Francisco and other places. Nothing new as far as I'm concerned. I stumbled on it by accident and noticed thast they are showing it in New York this time.

[Ibarramedia]

Ibarramedia, is that Fannie Barrios?

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body2.jpg

Fannie Josefina Barrios was born in Caracas, Venezuela on May 30, 1964. She was the Venezuelan champion in 1997 and 1998. She earned her pro card in 1998 when she won a contest called Absolute Center of the Americas in San Salvador. Her professional debut was at the 1999 Jan Tana Classic. In 2000 she moved to Florida with her husband, Alex Ramirez, and her daughter, Johadynis. There, she worked as a personal trainer and chef in the Miami area. She was a two-time class winner at the Jan Tana Classic, winning the middleweight class in 2001 and the lightweight class in 2002. Her final contest was the 2005 New York Pro Championship on May 21, where she finished in third place.

On August 7, 2005, Fannie died at approximately 2 AM of an apparent stroke. She had spent the previous day helping out backstage at the NPC Southern States contest in Fort Lauderdale, where her husband was competing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_Barrios

Rest in Peace.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2005/under39_abig.jpg


Yes it is her. You also answered your own question. A caption on her portrait is also available in the link if you clicked on it.

[AnglicanBeachParty]

Look at you knocking the dust off this thread. :)

Again, I heard Schoeller ask Vicki Nixon not to smile. Purchase "Beyond the Pain: The Vick Nixon Story" to see the clip of him photographing Nixon.

Many of the ladies seemed to be able to show off their personality even within the mugshot starkness which Schoeller seemed to have as his goal.

Love this shot of Rivieccio.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body15.jpg

Agreed! She looks really good.

[Curt James]

Curt and Tre', those are the same photographs from 2 and a half years ago. They initially had a showing in San Francisco and other places. Nothing new as far as I'm concerned. I stumbled on it by accident and noticed thast they are showing it in New York this time.

I assumed they were the same photos. Appreciate the bump and the info that they're on display again. :beerbang:


Yes it is her. You also answered your own question. A caption on her portrait is also available in the link if you clicked on it.

Have a habit of doing that. ;) But, seriously, wanted to give a shout out for an athlete passed too soon. Fannie Barrios was only 41 (much too young) and according to her Wikipedia entry, "She had spent the previous day helping out backstage at the NPC Southern States contest in Fort Lauderdale, where her husband was competing."


Agreed! She looks really good.

Rivieccio is one of my favorites. :beerbang:

Terrible audio in this next vid, but doesn't she just exude personality? lol She is just a doll.

3d-FqjKT9fg&feature=related

And she has chickens. :D

jskcwzX8kwE

Better audio here. Kind of an odd video, but cool. All the best to Rivieccio in future competitions.

rB2lfWrfoY0&NR=1

Pics from her blog...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iJ0z7Wmx6Kk/Skp6i4nVV6I/AAAAAAAAANA/9tT8K86GwFQ/s320/3737_0125.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iJ0z7Wmx6Kk/Skp6jCKPKSI/AAAAAAAAANI/08YbcFiY6Co/s320/3737_0132.jpg
Genex, Penny and Sonya

Looks like they were taken the same time as the "party" vid.

Her competitive record...

Annie Rivieccio

1988
Atlanta Championships - NPC, Overall Winner
Atlanta Championships - NPC, HeavyWeight, 1st
Extravaganza - NPC, HeavyWeight, 2nd

1991
Junior Nationals - NPC, HeavyWeight, 2nd

1992
Nationals - NPC, HeavyWeight, 5th

1994
Nationals - NPC, HeavyWeight, 3rd
USA Championships - NPC, HeavyWeight, 4th

1995
Nationals - NPC, HeavyWeight, 4th

1996
Nationals - NPC, HeavyWeight, 7th

1997
Nationals - NPC, HeavyWeight, 10th
USA Championships - NPC, HeavyWeight, 2nd

1998
Nationals - NPC, HeavyWeight, 3rd

1999
Nationals - NPC, HeavyWeight, 5th

2000
USA Championships - NPC, HeavyWeight, 3rd

2001
Nationals - NPC, HeavyWeight, 14th

2002
USA Championships - NPC, HeavyWeight, 5th

2003
Nationals - NPC, HeavyWeight, 1st
Nationals - NPC, Overall Winner
USA Championships - NPC, HeavyWeight, 3rd

2004
Ms International - IFBB, HeavyWeight, 4th
Night of Champions - IFBB, HeavyWeight, 7th
Show of Strength Pro Championship - IFBB, HeavyWeight, 5th

2005
New York Pro Championships - IFBB, HeavyWeight, 1st
Olympia - IFBB, Physique, 13th

2006
Ms International - IFBB, 7th
Olympia - IFBB, Physique, 3rd

2007
Ms International - IFBB, 7th
Olympia - IFBB, Physique, 10th

2008
Atlantic City Pro - IFBB, 7th
Europa Supershow - IFBB, HeavyWeight, 3rd
Ms International - IFBB, Physique, 9th
New York Pro Championships - IFBB, 6th
Tampa Bay Pro - IFBB, 6th

Hey... :confused:

So she didn't compete in 2009 or this year?

http://musclememory.com/magCovers/wpw/wpw061.jpg

[Ibarramedia]

Annie is awesome. She also has horses besides chickens.

[Mike Pulcinella]

Here is the video clip of Martin working with Vicki Nixon that Curt mentioned in his OP.

8ZTGXhWjAf4

For what its worth I find Martin's work riveting!

[Mike Pulcinella]

Hated the book. I had no idea what was going on when I was asked to do this shoot at my show. I sat in the middle of these bright lights told not to make any expression. Thank god my pic wasnt horrible but it certainly was not me at all.I feel bad for every woman in the book. If I would have known what it was for and how it was going to turn out I wouldnt have done it. This book doesnt show him being an artist if you ask me.

I love you Debbie, but I have to disagree. The pix aren't flattering, I know, but they are so REAL that I can't take my eyes off of them.

A posed picture that looks exactly the way YOU want it to look is not the real you. It may be beautiful but it's not truth. Take it from a documentary filmmaker, it is only when the defenses come down and vanity is put aside that true art can come out.

Those pictures tell more about the difficulties of doing what you athletes do than a thousand "pretty" pix. They are inspiring to me and speak deeply about the realities of bodybuilding.

[Curt James]

I love you Debbie, but I have to disagree. The pix aren't flattering, I know, but they are so REAL that I can't take my eyes off of them.

A posed picture that looks exactly the way YOU want it to look is not the real you. It may be beautiful but it's not truth. Take it from a documentary filmmaker, it is only when the defenses come down and vanity is put aside that true art can come out.

Those pictures tell more about the difficulties of doing what you athletes do than a thousand "pretty" pix. They are inspiring to me and speak deeply about the realities of bodybuilding.

I love you, mang. See my sig! But I'll disagree (to a degree) with you here. Art, like beauty, imo, is in the eye of the beholder, so if Bramwell says it's crap then it's crap. Whatever Schoeller's intent obviously failed in her eyes and therefore it's not art but insult.

It definitely gets a reaction and that's something that all art should aspire to do. One of my college professors told a story of someone visiting his gallery showing and walking out, obviously disappointed, saying something like, "There's nothing interesting here."

That comment changed my professor as an artist. He said that he altered his approach to creating art from that point forward so he'd never have to hear such a statement again. Not sure if I agree with that perspective, because though he was/is incredibly talented his content or subject matter went completely out of bounds. Weird [expletive deleted], for sure.

But he definitely got that reaction. And I doubt anyone ever described his work as boring ever again.

Schoeller has obviously been successful and you can't fault an artist for wanting that attention and spotlight. I'd be uncomfortable, however, making a model feel awkward or ugly, regardless of whatever success I might achieve.

...

Uh, I'm an artist of rambling.

[Mike Pulcinella]

I love you, mang. See my sig! But I'll disagree (to a degree) with you here. Art, like beauty, imo, is in the eye of the beholder, so if Bramwell says it's crap then it's crap. Whatever Schoeller's intent obviously failed in her eyes and therefore it's not art but insult.

It definitely gets a reaction and that's something that all art should aspire to do. One of my college professors told a story of someone visiting his gallery showing and walking out, obviously disappointed, saying something like, "There's nothing interesting here."

That comment changed my professor as an artist. He said that he altered his approach to creating art from that point forward so he'd never have to hear such a statement again. Not sure if I agree with that perspective, because though he was/is incredibly talented his content or subject matter went completely out of bounds. Weird [expletive deleted], for sure.

But he definitely got that reaction. And I doubt anyone ever described his work as boring ever again.

Schoeller has obviously been successful and you can't fault an artist for wanting that attention and spotlight. I'd be uncomfortable, however, making a model feel awkward or ugly, regardless of whatever success I might achieve.

...

Uh, I'm an artist of rambling.

A couple points in response...

Art must engage the viewer or else it has failed from the start. After it gets your attention it must have something to say. It is the balance between those things that is being debated here and you are right, there is no right or wrong when it comes to this. How much is too much attention-getting?

However, with all due respect to Debbie, or any subject of a photograph or documentary, they are the LAST ones in the world able to see the art clearly. I respect the privacy of my subjects. If they don't want something shown I don't show it. But they can't honestly gauge the merit of the piece, They just can't! It's THEM! The simply can not see themselves objectively. That's human nature and that's why biography is often more interesting than autobiography.

I was with Vicki all day that day. I can tell you that that picture more accurately reflects the TRUTH of that day for her than any posed physique shot ever will. She needed knee surgery and placed fourth out of four at her final contest in 23 years of competing. You tell me how real that picture is!

Unless I'm mistaken, and she can certainly correct me, Debbie doesn't like the pix because they are not flattering. I say that makes them more honest, nothing more. I think that's hard to debate. Whether they are good ART is something I won't touch because there's no winning that one!

[Musclepapa John]

Mike,
I doubt your portrayals of Vickie were so stark or garnered the sort of revolt amongst the subject and her peers as these do. Why is that? Weren't yours artsy enough? lol.

With every shoot we get bad angles whether it be in photo or video. I think I'll start promoting my weird shit as maybe I'll make more money:p


A couple points in response...

Art must engage the viewer or else it has failed from the start. After it gets your attention it must have something to say. It is the balance between those things that is being debated here and you are right, there is no right or wrong when it comes to this. How much is too much attention-getting?

However, with all due respect to Debbie, or any subject of a photograph or documentary, they are the LAST ones in the world able to see the art clearly. I respect the privacy of my subjects. If they don't want something shown I don't show it. But they can't honestly gauge the merit of the piece, They just can't! It's THEM! The simply can not see themselves objectively. That's human nature and that's why biography is often more interesting than autobiography.

I was with Vicki all day that day. I can tell you that that picture more accurately reflects the TRUTH of that day for her than any posed physique shot ever will. She needed knee surgery and placed fourth out of four at her final contest in 23 years of competing. You tell me how real that picture is!

Unless I'm mistaken, and she can certainly correct me, Debbie doesn't like the pix because they are not flattering. I say that makes them more honest, nothing more. I think that's hard to debate. Whether they are good ART is something I won't touch because there's no winning that one!

[thesamewords]

^You are hilarious bro

[thesamewords]

I would have to say that the content of these photos is absolutely geography @ its finest. Cultural geography to be exact. I feel that its a little odd to call these "stark" portraits simply because they lack the over embellishment that other methods of art/photo rely on. If this were art first, there would be no reason to explore content. The works displayed feature the most dynamic physiques in the world, meaning these would be representative of an artist taking a photo of another artist and publishing it as a new piece.So in short, this is geography first, art secondly.

[debbiebramwell]

A couple points in response...

Art must engage the viewer or else it has failed from the start. After it gets your attention it must have something to say. It is the balance between those things that is being debated here and you are right, there is no right or wrong when it comes to this. How much is too much attention-getting?

However, with all due respect to Debbie, or any subject of a photograph or documentary, they are the LAST ones in the world able to see the art clearly. I respect the privacy of my subjects. If they don't want something shown I don't show it. But they can't honestly gauge the merit of the piece, They just can't! It's THEM! The simply can not see themselves objectively. That's human nature and that's why biography is often more interesting than autobiography.

I was with Vicki all day that day. I can tell you that that picture more accurately reflects the TRUTH of that day for her than any posed physique shot ever will. She needed knee surgery and placed fourth out of four at her final contest in 23 years of competing. You tell me how real that picture is!

Unless I'm mistaken, and she can certainly correct me, Debbie doesn't like the pix because they are not flattering. I say that makes them more honest, nothing more. I think that's hard to debate. Whether they are good ART is something I won't touch because there's no winning that one!


I am always happy and smiling. It is real and it is me. I am a deep, loving giving person and people feel my energy when I walk into a room. These pics I look soulless etc. I was put in between a bunch of lights and told not to smile and show any emotion(really didnt have any idea what was going on or what to expect, it would of been nice if he told me or showed me pics of what to expect so I could of chosen not to be a part of it) That is not me. I will say this though I do think my pic was one of the better ones. That might of been vickis truth that day but it wasnt mine. I think an outsider of the bodybuilding community looking at these pics are gonna think even worse of us fbbrs then they already do. I thank god my pic doesnt look bad :pLOL

[debbiebramwell]

I love you Debbie, but I have to disagree. The pix aren't flattering, I know, but they are so REAL that I can't take my eyes off of them.

A posed picture that looks exactly the way YOU want it to look is not the real you. It may be beautiful but it's not truth. Take it from a documentary filmmaker, it is only when the defenses come down and vanity is put aside that true art can come out.

Those pictures tell more about the difficulties of doing what you athletes do than a thousand "pretty" pix. They are inspiring to me and speak deeply about the realities of bodybuilding.
Its ok for you to look at it differently lol I guess I am very lucky because like I said I am a very happy person all the time and my journey has been so good(minus the judging...ok take pics of my expressiin then lol)!! why shouldnt I be my true self? It doesnt have to be me giving a big grin. I did a shoot with someone who was having fun with me as we talked and we laughed and he shot candid pics that showed alot of emotion and expression and it was me! Like I said my pic here wasnt bad but some of the other ones were. The video I saw of vicki was different then what I experienced. I never saw a pic or was told what his goal was in the pics. Had he showed me I would of said no thanks.

[Mike Pulcinella]

Its ok for you to look at it differently lol I guess I am very lucky because like I said I am a very happy person all the time and my journey has been so good(minus the judging...ok take pics of my expressiin then lol)!! why shouldnt I be my true self? It doesnt have to be me giving a big grin. I did a shoot with someone who was having fun with me as we talked and we laughed and he shot candid pics that showed alot of emotion and expression and it was me! Like I said my pic here wasnt bad but some of the other ones were. The video I saw of vicki was different then what I experienced. I never saw a pic or was told what his goal was in the pics. Had he showed me I would of said no thanks.

That's fair. He should have showed you some examples first. I always show prospective clients my previous work before expecting them to be in front of my camera.

[Mike Pulcinella]

I am always happy and smiling. It is real and it is me. I am a deep, loving giving person and people feel my energy when I walk into a room. These pics I look soulless etc. I was put in between a bunch of lights and told not to smile and show any emotion(really didnt have any idea what was going on or what to expect, it would of been nice if he told me or showed me pics of what to expect so I could of chosen not to be a part of it) That is not me. I will say this though I do think my pic was one of the better ones. That might of been vickis truth that day but it wasnt mine. I think an outsider of the bodybuilding community looking at these pics are gonna think even worse of us fbbrs then they already do. I thank god my pic doesnt look bad :pLOL

" was put in between a bunch of lights and told not to smile and show any emotion. That is not me."

You make a good point. I can't argue with that. He should have let you be yourself.

[Musclepapa John]

^You are hilarious bro

You callin me hilarious lookin? :photo::fit::photo::fit::yep:

[Curt James]

^Stunningly handsome. lol :D

[Gerb]

my personal opinion, his work sucks, I can't quite see why the ladies agree to let the guy shoot them unless it was like Debbie's experience and they just had no idea how it was going to turn out but I can't imagine that if he said "hey, I am going to take photos of you that will exaggerate your facial features and NOT show you in a flattering light" that many would have jumped at the chance to be in the book.

[Musclepapa John]

my personal opinion, his work sucks, I can't quite see why the ladies agree to let the guy shoot them unless it was like Debbie's experience and they just had no idea how it was going to turn out but I can't imagine that if he said "hey, I am going to take photos of you that will exaggerate your facial features and NOT show you in a flattering light" that many would have jumped at the chance to be in the book.
Schoeller is a celebrity photographer not only photographing celebrities, but being one himself having worked for Annie Leibovitz and having been published in the Rolling Stone, GQ, Esquire, Vogue, the New Yorker, etc.

People usually jump at the chance to shoot with celebrity photographers on a smaller scale within the fitness industry. I doubt this was any different. Shoot with me and you will become immortalized in print. And they were:hypno:

[Mike Pulcinella]

my personal opinion, his work sucks, I can't quite see why the ladies agree to let the guy shoot them unless it was like Debbie's experience and they just had no idea how it was going to turn out but I can't imagine that if he said "hey, I am going to take photos of you that will exaggerate your facial features and NOT show you in a flattering light" that many would have jumped at the chance to be in the book.

Schoeller's work is so simple that it's brilliant and yet not as easy to do as it might seem. It may look like anyone could have done what he does...and yet no one did. You don't have to like it, but you have to acknowledge its purity.

[Gerb]

Schoeller's work is so simple that it's brilliant and yet not as easy to do as it might seem. It may look like anyone could have done what he does...and yet no one did. You don't have to like it, but you have to acknowledge its purity.

I don't find anything special or brilliant about it, it is staged and contrived. . Seems like gimmick photography. I find nothing pure about it either as I do not feel he is portraying them in an honest light. That is my opinion. I just really dislike this work.

I also never said anyone could do it, clearly the guy is a very skilled person behind the lense, creative, and a talented photographer but I think this work is crap.

[thesamewords]

No one wants to get a photo that exposes themselves from an exclusive vantage point. I think Mike is very accurate by stating that these photos are real, but to be exact i would say they are Hyperreal.You would never see any of these women the looking the same way with out the exclusive sight and vantage point of the camera. If anyone wants to do a little browsing( just for fun) look up Ron Mueck and check out feed back on The Uncanny Valley. You will be surprised to know that these photos are so damn raw they probably scare or disgust the people that are in them.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/y1q0RfLcE3yjl73616VDr4at_400.jpg
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kq7xasaA4p1qz4bxto1_500.png

[Curt James]

My turn to knock the dust off this thread.


Look at you knocking the dust off this thread. :)

Again, I heard Schoeller ask Vicki Nixon not to smile. Purchase "Beyond the Pain: The Vicki Nixon Story" to see the clip of him photographing Nixon.

Many of the ladies seemed to be able to show off their personality even within the mugshot starkness which Schoeller seemed to have as his goal.

Love this shot of Rivieccio.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/07/27/gal_body15.jpg

The NY Daily News removed that link and the photo of Rivieccio, but I found the image and saved it to my Picasa gallery along with some other shots.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OfEgJbCXWlU/TtErkH9RwgI/AAAAAAAAKLE/4GB1RBg0txs/s500/annierivieccio-martinschoeller.jpg
Annie Rivieccio

Watching Mike Pulcinella's "Beyond the Pain" (again) which showcases Vicki Nixon's physique career. There's a scene in the DVD with Schoeller speaking with Nixon and her husband about the project and then of Schoeller photographing her.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QhbP9NEa_oI/TtEqblxguFI/AAAAAAAAKKs/14Rv2-4Xs_Q/s512/vickienixon-martinschoeller.jpg
Vicki Nixon

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BIIzJj69VKc/TtEqgzPVlDI/AAAAAAAAKK0/_VUFq1LKFXQ/s512/tazziecolomb-martinschoeller.jpg
Tazzie Colomb

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EPjU2ZuQ4w0/TtErA9oC4cI/AAAAAAAAKK8/VgkTipUmaOc/s512/nicoleball-martinschoeller.jpg
Nicole Ball

Found this article while Googling. The author is clearly not a fan of the muscular look, however still offers an interesting perspective on Schoeller's work and the subsequent exhibition.

The Strength of Women

Martin Schoeller
Female Bodybuilders

By Norman Borden

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Eii8tau215I/TtEvWT-TzGI/AAAAAAAAKLM/cKloHJ8Dy1M/s512/fannie-barrios%252520martin-schoeller.JPG
Martin Schoeller, “Fannie Barrios, Female Bodybuilders”, 2003

Photographs of female bodybuilders are nothing new and as close your local newsstand, but Martin Schoeller’s images have an important difference—they pack enough strength to push you back and then draw you in. The six photographs in the series are 89” x72” (also available as 61 ” x 50” print) so their sheer size helps them pack a punch. (A grid of sixty 12 by 10 inch images is also part of the show.)

When you walk into the gallery, the sight of a serious looking, large breasted Fannie Barrios, head alluringly cocked to one side, will not prevent you from grimacing or saying “Ugh!” or other repulsive comment. But once you notice the sculpted details of her physique, you’re ready for a second, closer look.

Schoeller, who is well-known for his close up detailed portraits of celebrities and lesser mortals, turned his lens on female bodybuilders in 2003 and spent five years photographing them in all their six-pack glory. Schoeller says, “They challenge the boundaries of not only the shifting, maddening and ruthless standards of the female beauty industry, but what constitutes unnatural.”

Each subject stares straight at the camera, locking eyes with you, almost commanding you to “look at me.” You do, but not for long. Schoeller says the women consider themselves to be artists, their bodies their greatest creation. But as the photographer says, their work goes unrewarded because they are women. Men who achieve the same level of physical perfection are more accepted and rewarded. Here though, it’s a real woman’s world. Take a look for yourself and try not to stare.

From http://www.nyphotoreview.com/NYPR_REVS/NYPR_REV534.html

More @ http://www.acegallery.net/artwork.php?pageNum_ACE=16&totalRows_ACE=126&Artist=41

[Curt James]

Here is the video clip of Martin working with Vicki Nixon that Curt mentioned in his OP.

8ZTGXhWjAf4

For what its worth I find Martin's work riveting!

A very belated thank you, Mike!

ABP appears completing his amazing portrait of Vicki near the end of the film, too.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pmS0eQV-IZs/TtE1jGII2QI/AAAAAAAAKLo/Jqs6knbI9_U/s720/paul-erlandson%252520vicki-nixon.jpg

[Curt James]

(snip) LOVE the one of Nadia Nardi, though. Of the ones you posted here, hers is the most beautiful.

Bonny, Yaxeni, Annie, and C-Roth also look nice. Bonny's is really intriguing to me.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3pgwIVn7jhc/TtE2yaZ-G0I/AAAAAAAAKL8/iz4sm98SwxA/s496/nadia-nardi%252520martin-schoeller.jpg
Nadia Nardi

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1nPVm8qbt7Y/TtE4hy8k4xI/AAAAAAAAKMY/JRCF366qT_I/s500/bonnypriest-martinschoeller.jpg
Bonny Priest

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jNALsZ0kX00/TtE4moFXjSI/AAAAAAAAKMc/tNf2IynJ3Q8/s500/yaxenioriquen-martinschoeller.jpg
Yaxeni Oriquen

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QL1ec47-qQM/TtE41WwaF6I/AAAAAAAAKMg/M6kyE1Th1J4/s500/christineroth-martinschoeller.jpg
Christine Roth