couple questions

[rw0885]

a woman i know is complaining about joint pain...hips, elbows, wrists, everything. she is 41 years old so my first thought was that her estrogen level has dropped, as i have read that this can cause pain in the joints. she has tried glucosamine for 3 months and it didnt help at all. she is currently taking a med to decrease inflamation, and that doesnt help that much. she is asking me about using deca at a low dose to help her joint. can anyone tell me what a low dose for a woman would be just to help ease joint pain? what all would she have to do when she came off it, like a pct? any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Sledge]

Has she had her hormone levels checked? What anti inflammatory is she taking?
I wouldn't recommend deca purely for joint pain, especially without knowing the cause of the pain. Personally deca being such a long acting AAS it'd be one of the last things I'd recommend to a woman. And certainly not to relieve pain symptoms of unknown cause.

[rw0885]

she has not had her hormone levels checked, that was the first thing i recommended, but she is hard headed. i cant remember the name of the anti-inflamitory that she is taking right now, but i know its perscription. what is your reasoning for a woman not using deca to relieve joint pain just due to the fact that its a long acting AAS? i have known plenty of guys that do that, granted i havent heard of someone using it alone.

[rw0885]

forgot to add this: she has been to the doc for her hip pain, and hes saying its due to old injuries and saying that since she is 41 years old her body has wear and tear on it, but she has never injured anything besides her elbow. in my oppinion, 41 is still very young, and by no means should she be experiencing joint pain due to arthritis or old age.

[Toniann]

forgot to add this: she has been to the doc for her hip pain, and hes saying its due to old injuries and saying that since she is 41 years old her body has wear and tear on it, but she has never injured anything besides her elbow. in my oppinion, 41 is still very young, and by no means should she be experiencing joint pain due to arthritis or old age.


You are never to young for arthritis, I have had it since my mid 20's in both my knee's one is worse than the other but it is not uncommon. She should really see a MD before self medicating herself with an AAS for joint pain discomfort.

[Toniann]

A small side note, if she is so sure she doesn't have arthritis why would she want to take Deca? it was originally designed to treat arthritis. Just my opinion

[sassy69]

The reason she shouldn't be messing w/ deca is that, as mentioned above, its a long-acting male hormone. She's probably guaranteed to blow up (moon face) as well as all the usual accompanying AAS sides. Is she prepared to take on that? Also its not an maintenance treatment so she can't "stay on" forever.

"Hard-headed" about seeing a doc always blows my mind when she's got no problem self-medicating w/ male hormones.... Pick the right thing to be hard-headed about....

Potential issues are:
- estrogen levels
- diet - does she get enough EFAs in her diet?
- age ... w/ age you can't expect to live the same as you did in your 20s and get the same results because your body is changing. The best thing you can do is make minor adjustments to your LIFESTYLE to support those changes. I don't like the idea of looking for a quicky fix that isn't a 'maintenance protocol'.

... I'm 44 and I've got tendonitis & joint pain all over the place. Mine is from nearly 30 years of lifting - I've added a lot of EFAs, I use ice packs, I even have a home ultrasound machine that I use (cost about $200) that I use on current issue locations - e.g. shoulder surgery a year ago that recently got aggravated after moving a mattress down 3 flights of stairs, plantar fasciitis starting on my right heel, tendonitis in my forearms, etc etc etc. BTW that forearm tendonitis I've had since 1992 - so that's not even an age thing.

Of all the places, I'd look at her diet first & add some EFAs, and then go see a doc.

Here's somethign else. How active is she? I've found that I need to warm up for 30 min before even attempting to lift anymore. I use the Joe DeFranco "Agile Eight" (google this), including active warm ups & foam roller. Best thing I've ever added to my training regimen. That & my massage guy / chiropractor help w/ lots of general alignment things. Something I follow up the stretching w/ is doing a bunch of bodywt ass to the floor squats - just to get things aligned. What I've found more recently is when something is out of whack,. e.g. I developed a bone spur in my right shoulder last year. The result was that in dealing w/ the inflammation of that, and trying to work around the pain, other body parts tried to compensate, that weren't meant to be the compensators. I.e. my scapula would pop out because the whole right side of my back would be balled up in a never-ending spasm because the smaller 'support' muscles were trying to do the work of my shoulder, my right hip has some crazy tight tendons in it now, my right arm's tendonitis got a lot worse. All sorts of things. The plantar fasciitis in my right heel impacts how I walk sometimes when it flairs up - this in turn, propagates up my leg so my ankles feel tighter, knees and then back to the right hip w/ the crazy tight tendons. Functionally correct exercise and alignment will be your best friend for life. An older body can't accommodate the beatings we used to take in our 20s. Brute force doesn't work anymore. Elegant and tight lifting form are where its at now. Train smarter, not harder!

I'll also rant a little about altering your lifestyle in general, because your body reflects your lifestyle. Whatever state your body is in now, is a result of your genetics (what God gave you to work with) and the environment in which it has to exist. Tweak a few things and you can "fix" a lot of problems - but those tweaks need to be made part of your lifestyle, not just a temporary fix. (Which IMO is what a deca cycle would be, not even going into all the issues that will come from self-medicating w/ long-ester male hormones). I would disect her diet and make sure she's getting good fats, and if not , add some (EFAs in cap form are fine, many like liquid Udo's Choice as well). And exercise. Many people steer clear of the gym because they 'dont' have time, never did it before, aren't in shape', whatever. Functionally correct alignment & strength will give your body the stuff it needs to be strong as it ages. Or if she does a sport, I'd also look at that sport - or any particular repeated action activity that might be contributing to her joint pain. Here I'd be looking for anything from tennis elbow to carpal tunnel from time on the computer. FWIW, I'm a software engineer since 1985 and the only time I've ever encountered carpal tunnel issues is in the early 90s when we were doing a lot of graphical design (object design to generate code) using the mouse to hold down & draw lines, etc. Outside of that, its not been an issue.

I don't want to recommended deca. "Guys take it" because the sides are much more forgiving for them. If she doesn't like the sides, tough shit. She'd be stuck w/ them. And its still not a maintenance protocol.

[sassy69]

Here's some info:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16531187

Surg Neurol. (javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Surg%20Neuro l.');) 2006 Apr;65(4):326-31.
Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) as an anti-inflammatory: an alternative to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs for discogenic pain.

Maroon JC (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Maroon%20JC%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstract), Bost JW (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Bost%20JW%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstract).
Department of Neurological Surgery, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, Pittsburgh, PA, USA. [email protected]
Comment in:


Surg Neurol. 2006 Apr;65(4):325. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16531186?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed _ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstract)
Surg Neurol. 2006 Nov;66(5):552; author reply 552-3. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17084215?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed _ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstract)
Surg Neurol. 2006 Nov;66(5):552; author reply 552-3. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17133673?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed _ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstract)

BACKGROUND: The use of NSAID medications is a well-established effective therapy for both acute and chronic nonspecific neck and back pain. Extreme complications, including gastric ulcers, bleeding, myocardial infarction, and even deaths, are associated with their use. An alternative treatment with fewer side effects that also reduces the inflammatory response and thereby reduces pain is believed to be omega-3 EFAs found in fish oil. We report our experience in a neurosurgical practice using fish oil supplements for pain relief. METHODS: From March to June 2004, 250 patients who had been seen by a neurosurgeon and were found to have nonsurgical neck or back pain were asked to take a total of 1200 mg per day of omega-3 EFAs (eicosapentaenoic acid and decosahexaenoic acid) found in fish oil supplements. A questionnaire was sent approximately 1 month after starting the supplement. RESULTS: Of the 250 patients, 125 returned the questionnaire at an average of 75 days on fish oil. Seventy-eight percent were taking 1200 mg and 22% were taking 2400 mg of EFAs. Fifty-nine percent discontinued to take their prescription NSAID medications for pain. Sixty percent stated that their overall pain was improved, and 60% stated that their joint pain had improved. Eighty percent stated they were satisfied with their improvement, and 88% stated they would continue to take the fish oil. There were no significant side effects reported. CONCLUSIONS: Our results mirror other controlled studies that compared ibuprofen and omega-3 EFAs demonstrating equivalent effect in reducing arthritic pain. omega-3 EFA fish oil supplements appear to be a safer alternative to NSAIDs for treatment of nonsurgical neck or back pain in this selective group.

PMID: 16531187 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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http://www.arthritis-glucosamine.net/article-detail.php?ID=192

Using essential fatty acids for reducing arthritis joint pain 04/15/05 Rudy Silva Action Menu http://www.activexamerica.com/images/spacer.gif http://www.activexamerica.com/images/spacer.gif http://www.activexamerica.com/images/printtxt.gif (http://www.arthritis-glucosamine.net/detail-print.php?ID=192)
http://www.activexamerica.com/images/emailtxt.gif (http://www.arthritis-glucosamine.net/detail-email.php?ID=192)
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http://www.activexamerica.com//images/spacer.gif http://www.activexamerica.com//images/spacer.gif http://www.activexamerica.com//images/spacer.gif Essential fatty acids provide protection for the whole body. In particular it is effective in reducing inflammation as experienced in joint pain or arthritis.

Most people will have to deal with arthritis especially as they get older. One way to eliminate or minimize this pain is to supplement with the essential fatty acids.

Osteoarthritis, the most common arthritis, is not the only arthritis that affects so many people:

* rheumatoid arthritis
* arthritis from lupus
* gout
* psoriatic arthritis
* reiter’s disease
* infective arthritis

As you age, the constant movement of the joints creates wear and tear. Toxic wastes that circulate in the blood, dead cells, and liquid can accumulate in the various joints and cause inflammation and pain. Continual inflammation can cause damage to the joints. In some cases the cartilage that coats the bone ends, wears down and joints then rub bone to bone causing extreme pain.

Using the essential fatty acids provides lubrication for the joints as the move against each other. This reduces the wear that can occur at these joints and this results in less inflammation.

There are several conditions and lifestyles that contribute to arthritis,

* Obesity
* Diabetes
* Heredity
* Poor nutrition
* Poor digestion
* Lack of water
* Allergies
* Repetitive use of fingers, hands, legs or arms
* Body injuries – sports or accidents

Arthritis is a difficult disease to treat because there is usually more than one cause. Just working on one cause may not help enough to give pain relief. But it always helps to know the many things that contribute to arthritis so that different nutritional and lifestyles changes can be made.

The use of flax seed oil, omega-3, is known to provide anti-inflammatory benefits. Omega-3 breaks down into prostaglandins. It is the prostaglandins that provide the anti-inflammatory results.

So by using the omega-3, GLA, and EPA/DHA supplements, you can get some relief from arthritis. These oils reduce inflammation and pain and provide lubrication, thereby preventing some damage from occurring in your joints.

It is recommended that you use a good dose of,

* Borage oil

* Primrose oil

* NKO oil

Using these oil spread across the day, provides the benefit of feeling reduce joint stiffness and pain in the morning. Use the different oils one bottle at a time. This gives you the health benefits that these different oil provide.

One additional benefit to using these oils is the coating protection that GLA has in the stomach lining.

The standard treatment for arthritis is the use of NSAIDs and COX-2 inhibitors. These, however, have undesirable side effects such as attacking the stomach lining. Thousands of deaths and visits to the emergency are associated with the use of NSAIDs.

You can benefit greatly if you use NSAIDs by adding GLA oils to your diet and help to prevent the serious side effects of the NSAIDs.

There you have it. Eat the essential fatty acids and provide your body with what it needs to build strong and healthy joints.

About the Author
Rudy Silva has a degree in Physics and is a Natural Nutritionist. He is the author of Constipation, Acne, Hemorrhoid, and Fatty Acid ebooks. He writes a newsletter called "Natural Remedies Thatwork.com". For more information on arthritis go to: http://www.arthritis-remedies.for--you.info (http://www.arthritis-remedies.for--you.info/)
The author's statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration and are not provided to diagnose any disease or to suggest that liquid glucosamine and chondroitin will treat, cure, or prevent any disease.


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(Sorry getting lazy about searching .. .here's a pile of refs:

http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/Omega_3.shtml

[cat]

Vitamin D… The anti-inflammatory hormone


http://www.attunechiropractic.com/wp-content/gallery/blog_images/vitamind.pngVitamin D is an anti-inflammatory hormone made in the body through exposure to ultraviolet light. Its main function is to stimulate receptors in your gut sending a message to your DNA to absorb calcium. Vitamin D receptors are found throughout your body. Below is a list of a few of the common Vitamin D receptor locations and the implications of deficiency of this vitamin:
Receptor Deficiency of Vitamin D can cause:
Brain (D modulates neurotransmitters) : Depression (seasonal affective disorder)
Breast: Cancer
Skin : Psoriasis
Prostate : Cancer
Lymphocytes : Interruption in immune response
Ovaries: Cancer
Islet cells of pancreas : Diabetes
Muscle and bone : Achy and soreness, pain
Aortic endothelium : Cardiovascular disease
Vitamin D deficiency is often misdiagnosed as fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, and others. Deficiency has also been associated with multiple sclerosis, graves disease, and age related muscle wasting. Degenerative arthritis also progresses more rapidly when there is a deficiency of Vitamin D because of its anti-inflammatory properties.
The average adult has a physiologic requirement of 1,000 – 5,000IU’s of vitamin D per day. Direct sunlight from UVB rays through hydroxylation in the liver and kidney creates vitamin D3. A half hour of full body exposure in a noon-time sun will create 10,000 – 25,000IU of vitamin D3. The best option is to test your blood’s level of 25(OH) vit D3. The optimal vitamin D3 levels are 40-65 ng/ml. A deficiency is designated as less than 20 ng/ml and toxicity, although very rare is designated as greater than 150 ng/ml. 1,000 IU’s a day will increase the blood levels of D3 by 10ng/ml after 4 months of supplementation. So, if your blood levels are around 20 ng/ml, you should be taking 2,000 – 4,000 IU’s of vitamin D3 per day.
Stay healthy this flu season, have your vitamin D3 levels tested and make sure you are getting an adequate amount!!!!
References:
Baynes, John W, Dominiczak, Marek H. Medical Biochemistry 2nd edition. Elsevier Ltd 2005.
Robbins and Cotran. Pathologic Basis of Disease. Elsevier Ltd. 2005


Also, there is a study started in 2007, ending in August 2010 to determine the exact amounts of Vitamin D necessary for the anti-inflammatory effects.


Grant Number: 5R21AT003714-02 Project Title: Dose-dependent anti-inflammatory effects of vitamin D in a human gingivitis model PI Information:NameEmailTitle
GARCIA, RAUL I. [email protected] ([email protected]) PROFESSOR AND CHAIR Abstract: DESCRIPTION (provided by applicant): The burden of chronic gingivitis and periodontitis in the US is disproportionately high among Non-Hispanic Blacks compared to Non-Hispanic Whites. Chronic gingivitis is a highly prevalent chronic inflammatory disease that may progress into periodontitis, a major cause of tooth loss. Data from in-vitro and animal studies suggest anti-inflammatory effects of vitamin D; however, if and over what dose-range vitamin D may have anti- inflammatory effects in humans is uncertain. Recent clinical studies indicate that beneficial effects of vitamin D for several important outcomes may occur over a wide range of serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25-OHD) concentrations, possibly up to concentrations that would require vitamin D intakes ranging from 2 to more than ten times higher than the current RDA for vitamin D. Because dark skin pigmentation is a potent inhibitor of vitamin D photosynthesis, Non-Hispanic Blacks have much lower 25-OHD serum levels than Non-Hispanic Whites. These differences in vitamin D status may partially explain the racial disparities in prevalence of chronic gingivitis and periodontitis observed in the US. We hypothesize that oral cholecalciferol supplementation can reduce susceptibility to gingivitis over a wide range of serum 25-OHD concentrations in Non-Hispanic Whites and Non-Hispanic Blacks. We propose to conduct a simple, single-center, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled parallel-group dose-ranging study. We will compare placebo to doses of 500 IU, 2,500 IU and 5,000 IU vitamin D3 per day. We will compare the severity of gingival inflammation that develops in response to a 28-day period of unlimited plaque growth (experimental gingivitis) between dosage groups. Furthermore, we will evaluate the association between achieved 25-OHD levels and gingival inflammation. The results of this study will have several important implications, as dietary vitamin D supplementation may be a simple, safe and inexpensive means by which to reduce racial/ethnic disparities in gingivitis, as well as to reduce the overall burden of oral disease in the population as a whole. The study will elucidate the dose- response relationship of the anti-inflammatory effects of vitamin D, which in turn may lead to a revision of the current recommendations regarding nutritional supplementation of vitamin D in order to optimize the prevention of important medical conditions and diseases and reduce racial health disparities.
Public Health Relevance:
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Institution: BOSTON UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CAMPUS
85 East Newton Street, M-921
BOSTON, MA 021182394 Fiscal Year: 2008 Department: HEALTH POLICY AND HEALTH SERVICES RESEARCH Project Start: 30-SEP-2007 Project End: 31-AUG-2010

[s2h]

is she taken hgh,that could cause some probs also?