Female Cycles

[heavyiron]

I would like to present 2 cycles my female friend has done. Over the years I have seen little first hand information on female cycles in comparison to male cycles. The number of sudies on female usage is very low as well. This makes it difficult for a female who wants to use anabolic androgenic steroids but who does not want any masculinization to occur. Her first cycle was;

weeks 1-14 1.5iu hgh 5 days a week (some days were a little higher)
weeks 2-11 12.5 mg oxandrolone daily

She noticed a modest increase in strength within 4 weeks. Her bench got up to 135x10 before the cycle was over. She felt the hgh did next to nothing for her. She noticed no fat loss. Her muscles were obviously harder. Her mood energy and sex drive were unaffected. Menstration shortened in duration. Blood tests taken at 30 days revealed an hdl of 27 (low) and ldl of 119 (high) all other tests were normal. Blood lipids returned to normal within 60 days of stopping the cycle. She took niacin and plant sterols upon learning of poor blood lipids. She had some acne. No masculinization occurred. She waited 1 year for her second cycle to begin. She was able to keep 90% of gains.

The following is her second cycle;

week 1-8 12.5mg oxandrolone and 10mg Nolvadex daily
(Nolvadex was increased to 20mg daily the last 2 weeks)

Strength increased modestly within 3-4 weeks. Her bench at week 7 was 155x10. The day after her cycle ended she benched 190lbs for a 1 rep max. She noticed no fat loss. Her muscles are obviously harder. She has increased endurance while resistence training. Mood, energy and sex drive were unaffected. Menstration shortened in duration. No blood work was done while on but was taken before cycle, all was normal. Overall her strength increased more dramatically on this cycle than the previous one. This is a less expensive cycle that yielded more results. She had very slight acne. No masculization has occurred.

[rainjack]

My wife experienced very similar results on a cycle of anavar as well.

She started on 5mg/day oxandrolone for 2 weeks.

Increased to 7.5mg/day for the next two weeks

Increased to 10mg/day

Acne became quite bad about halfway through the first week on 10mg, so she dropped it back to 5mg/day.

No appreciable fat loss.

HI - was your friend taking birth control pills during her cycles? My wife was not on birth control during her cycle.

[Sledge]

My wife experienced very similar results on a cycle of anavar as well.

She started on 5mg/day oxandrolone for 2 weeks.

Increased to 7.5mg/day for the next two weeks

Increased to 10mg/day

Acne became quite bad about halfway through the first week on 10mg, so she dropped it back to 5mg/day.

No appreciable fat loss.

HI - was your friend taking birth control pills during her cycles? My wife was not on birth control during her cycle.


Hi

Maybe I misunderstood your post. Are you saying she was taking Anavar for fat loss?

[rainjack]

No. She was taking it for strength gains. She just noticed no increase in fat loss. I mentioned that to compare my wife's cycle to Heavy's friend.

[heavyiron]

My wife experienced very similar results on a cycle of anavar as well.

She started on 5mg/day oxandrolone for 2 weeks.

Increased to 7.5mg/day for the next two weeks

Increased to 10mg/day

Acne became quite bad about halfway through the first week on 10mg, so she dropped it back to 5mg/day.

No appreciable fat loss.

HI - was your friend taking birth control pills during her cycles? My wife was not on birth control during her cycle.
Thanks for sharing that.

No, she was not using any birth control at all.

[heavyiron]

Hi

Maybe I misunderstood your post. Are you saying she was taking Anavar for fat loss?
Altough there are some encouraging studies on Anavar and fat loss it is obvious that nutrition plays a large role in that fat loss.


Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

Lovejoy JC, Bray GA, Greeson CS, Klemperer M, Morris J, Partington C, Tulley R.
Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70808-4124, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of testosterone enanthate (TE), anabolic steroid (AS) or placebo (PL) on regional fat distribution and health risk factors in obese middle-aged men undergoing weight loss by dietary means.

DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial, carried out for 9 months with primary assessments at 3 month intervals. Due to adverse blood lipid changes, the AS group was switched from oral oxandrolone (ASOX) to parenteral nandrolone decaoate (ASND) after the 3 month assessment point.

SUBJECTS: Thirty healthy, obese men, aged 40-60 years, with serum testosterone (T) levels in the low-normal range (2-5 ng/mL).

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Abdominal fat distribution and thigh muscle volume by CT scan, body composition by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), insulin sensitivity by the Minimal Model method, blood lipids, blood chemistry, blood pressure, thyroid hormones and urological parameters.

RESULTS: After 3 months, there was a significantly greater decrease in subcutaneous (SQ) abdominal fat in the ASOX group compared to the TE and PL groups although body weight changes did not differ by treatment group. There was also a tendency for the ASOX group to exhibit greater losses in visceral fat, and the absolute level of visceral fat in this group was significantly lower at 3 months than in the TE and PL groups. There were significant main effects of treatment at 3 months on serum T and free T (increased in the TE group and decreased in the ASOX group) and on thyroid hormone parameters (T4 and T3 resin uptake significantly decreased in the ASOX group compared with the other two groups). There was a significant decrease in HDL-C, and increase in LDL-C in the ASOX group, which led to their being switched to the parenteral nandrolone decanoate (ASND) after 3 months. ASND had opposite effects on visceral fat from ASOX, producing a significant increase from 3 to 9 months while continuing to decrease SQ abdominal fat. ASND treatment also decreased thigh muscle area, while ASOX treatment increased high muscle. ASND reversed the effects of ASOX on lipoproteins and thyroid hormones. The previously reported effect of T to decrease visceral fat was not observed, in fact, visceral fat in the TE group increased slightly from 3 to 9 months, although SQ fat continued to decrease. Neither TE nor AS treatment resulted in any change in urologic parameters.

CONCLUSIONS: Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat. TE and ASND injections given every 2 weeks had similar effects to weight loss alone on regional body fat. Most of the beneficial effects observed on metabolic and cardiovascular risk factors were due to weight loss per se. These results suggest that SQ and visceral abdominal fat can be independently modulated by androgens and that at least some anabolic steroids are capable of influencing abdominal fat.

PMID: 8574271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Big Sky Guy]

Female Friend. Well conditioned 35 YOU athlete that had a hyst and ovorectomy and is taking prescribed doses of EET as hormone replacement and Armor thyroid as she has Hashimoto's Thyroiditis.

Previous Track middle distance and CC runner with an Endo bodytype. Good diet that is high prot, med fat and carb and she is used to running ~10 miles a weeks and lifting 2-3 times per week when life doesn't get in the way.

Started at 5 mg a day for 2 weeks, then 5 mg AM and 5 PM for 12 weeks. Put on 5 pounds over the first 4 weeks and then she chose to up her cardio a touch to keep water off and weight stable. Strength increased and a slight amount of acne. Became visibly harder and more defined and lost a touch of BF from waistline. Bloodwork showed lipids and chol were affected negatively.

[Bigphil]

my girlfriend is about to start her first cycle of var at 5mgs a day to start what kind of results does anybody think she could obtain with this compound coupled with strict diet and regular cardio

[heavyiron]

my girlfriend is about to start her first cycle of var at 5mgs a day to start what kind of results does anybody think she could obtain with this compound coupled with strict diet and regular cardio
Increase in strength and hardness. She may want to consider upping the dose in 2-3 weeks if no sides present. 10mg daily is typically well tolerated in females.

[Bigphil]

can she expect to see any notable fat loss??

[heavyiron]

can she expect to see any notable fat loss??
If she diets and does sufficient cardio. Nutrition tends to drive fat loss not the drugs.

[rainjack]

Thanks for sharing that.

No, she was not using any birth control at all.

I am wondering if women on the pill would have different results on an AAS cycle due to the increased amount of estrogen and progestins contained in the pill.

Or -

If the AAS would have an adverse action on the efficacy of the pill.

[Big Sky Guy]

Big Phil- has she been working out and eating well for the past 6+ months? If so, she will see gains in physical size if she keeps at it hard in the gym and if she nails her diet she will lose BF%

Been There- great question. The monthly cycling of hormones affects everything about a woman....from feeling bloated, fat and unlovable to feeling sleek and sexy all in a matter of weeks. I have not witnessed how AAS affects women who are pre-menopausal....but reading around here, there are plenty of gals who have experience. Sassy, Sally and many, many others may be able to articulate any difference between being on AAS while both on and off BC.

[Bigphil]

bigskyguy- yes she has she also has a low thyroid and has been takin perscription t4 so it seems like she is always at the same weight regardless of carb manipulation or calorie deficiancy so essentially she is pretty fed up she wants to go with the var and clen coupled with double cardio sessions and lowered carb and calorie she is hoping she will tighten up and gain some more lean tissue she is noy expectin too much from the aas

[rainjack]

I was just asking about women and AAS and birth control pills. My friend emailed me this article by Jerry Brainum over at Iron Man Magazine.


http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/blogs/jerrybrainum/?p=64



It doesn't discuss women on AAS, but I found the results of the study quite startling.




According to a study just presented at the annual Experimental Biology 2009 conference in New Orleans, women who use oral contraceptives, better known as birth control pills, may experienced hampered muscle gains when they lift weights. The study consisted of 73 healthy women, ages 18 to 31, who were assigned to either a birth control pill group (BCP), or a non-birth control group (NBCG). All the women participated in a 10-week weight-training program, training 3 days a week under the supervision of physiologists. They did both standard upper and lower body exercises, all for 3 sets of 6-10 reps, using weights equal to 75% of their maximum one-rep lift. Body composition in the women was measured by hydrostatic weighing. In addition, blood samples were obtained prior to, and after the training to measure various hormones, including DHEA, DHEA-S, and IGF-1.

The results showed that those not taking BCP gained 60% more lean mass compared to those taking the pills. On the other hand, strength gains and arm and leg circumferences were similar between the groups. The levels of the anabolic hormones, DHEA and IGF-1, were significantly lower in the women on the pill, while levels of the catabolic hormone, cortisol were higher in the pill users. The OCP also showed decreased levels of DHEA at the end of the study. In contrast, no change occurred in DHEA levels in the non-pill users.

The researchers who conducted this study were at a loss to explain the results, other than suggesting that BCP can impede muscle gains in women. On the other hand, while the pill users gained 60% less lean mass compared to their non-pill peers, both groups gained similar levels of strength and size in the legs and arms. This, of course, is a quite contradictory finding, and makes you wonder if much of the lean mass gains experienced by the non-pill users consisted of water. Curiously, testosterone wasn’t measured in the study, which would have somewhat clarified the results. Instead, only DHEA levels were measured. DHEA, however, is an adrenal androgen that tends to convert into testosterone in women far more readily that it does in men. But recent studies also show that DHEA doesn’t appear to promote muscle gains in exercising women. Since the women trained under supervision, we have to assume that they trained with an equal level of intensity, which would have influenced muscle gains. The elevated cortisol levels in the pill users likely played a major role in why they gained less lean mass, since the non-pill users didn’t show such elevations. The women were told to ingest at least 0.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. Normally, a high protein intake would offset much of the muscle catabolic effects linked to higher cortisol levels, but this level of protein may not have been enough to overcome the catabolic effects probably induced by the OC.

This new information does not apply to women using anabolic steroid drugs, which would make any effects of OC on muscle growth negligible. As the study authors suggest, there may be other, as yet unidentified mechanisms as work here, too. In the meantime, I doubt that many women would be willing to toss those birth control pills as a means of promoting muscle gains. Becoming pregnant when you don’t want to is a far more serious proposition than sacrificing some muscle gains in rational women

[heavyiron]

I was just asking about women and AAS and birth control pills. My friend emailed me this article by Jerry Brainum over at Iron Man Magazine.


http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/blogs/jerrybrainum/?p=64



It doesn't discuss women on AAS, but I found the results of the study quite startling.




According to a study just presented at the annual Experimental Biology 2009 conference in New Orleans, women who use oral contraceptives, better known as birth control pills, may experienced hampered muscle gains when they lift weights. The study consisted of 73 healthy women, ages 18 to 31, who were assigned to either a birth control pill group (BCP), or a non-birth control group (NBCG). All the women participated in a 10-week weight-training program, training 3 days a week under the supervision of physiologists. They did both standard upper and lower body exercises, all for 3 sets of 6-10 reps, using weights equal to 75% of their maximum one-rep lift. Body composition in the women was measured by hydrostatic weighing. In addition, blood samples were obtained prior to, and after the training to measure various hormones, including DHEA, DHEA-S, and IGF-1.

The results showed that those not taking BCP gained 60% more lean mass compared to those taking the pills. On the other hand, strength gains and arm and leg circumferences were similar between the groups. The levels of the anabolic hormones, DHEA and IGF-1, were significantly lower in the women on the pill, while levels of the catabolic hormone, cortisol were higher in the pill users. The OCP also showed decreased levels of DHEA at the end of the study. In contrast, no change occurred in DHEA levels in the non-pill users.

The researchers who conducted this study were at a loss to explain the results, other than suggesting that BCP can impede muscle gains in women. On the other hand, while the pill users gained 60% less lean mass compared to their non-pill peers, both groups gained similar levels of strength and size in the legs and arms. This, of course, is a quite contradictory finding, and makes you wonder if much of the lean mass gains experienced by the non-pill users consisted of water. Curiously, testosterone wasn’t measured in the study, which would have somewhat clarified the results. Instead, only DHEA levels were measured. DHEA, however, is an adrenal androgen that tends to convert into testosterone in women far more readily that it does in men. But recent studies also show that DHEA doesn’t appear to promote muscle gains in exercising women. Since the women trained under supervision, we have to assume that they trained with an equal level of intensity, which would have influenced muscle gains. The elevated cortisol levels in the pill users likely played a major role in why they gained less lean mass, since the non-pill users didn’t show such elevations. The women were told to ingest at least 0.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. Normally, a high protein intake would offset much of the muscle catabolic effects linked to higher cortisol levels, but this level of protein may not have been enough to overcome the catabolic effects probably induced by the OC.

This new information does not apply to women using anabolic steroid drugs, which would make any effects of OC on muscle growth negligible. As the study authors suggest, there may be other, as yet unidentified mechanisms as work here, too. In the meantime, I doubt that many women would be willing to toss those birth control pills as a means of promoting muscle gains. Becoming pregnant when you don’t want to is a far more serious proposition than sacrificing some muscle gains in rational women
I was just reading the other day how estrogen lowers IGF-1.

[bad rad]

I was just reading the other day how estrogen lowers IGF-1.

I wonder if it is the way the liver processes the pill as estrogen or possibly decreases GH release due to receptor antagonism.

[heavyiron]

I wonder if it is the way the liver processes the pill as estrogen or possibly decreases GH release due to receptor antagonism.

I found this interesting as GH secretion raised and IGF-1 lowered after estrogen administration.

Effects of oral versus transdermal estrogen on the growth hormone/insulin-like growth factor I axis in younger and older postmenopausal women: a clinical research center study


MF Bellantoni, J Vittone, AT Campfield, KM Bass, SM Harman and MR Blackman
Department of Medicine, Johns Hopkins Bayview Medical Center, Baltimore, Maryland 21224, USA.

To compare the effects of oral vs. transdermal estrogens on GH secretion and levels of circulating insulin-like growth factor I (IGF- I) and IGF-binding protein-3 (IGFBP-3) in younger vs. older postmenopausal women, we conducted a placebo-controlled, cross-over trial of 6 weeks of oral conjugated estrogen (1.25 mg daily) or transdermal estradiol (100 micrograms/day) administered in random order and separated by an 8-week, treatment-free interval. Sixteen healthy postmenopausal women, ages 49-75 yr, were studied on an NIH-funded General Clinical Research Center grant. Data were analyzed for the combined group as well as in the younger ( <or= 62 yr, n = 8) and older women ( > 62 yr, n = 8). Spontaneous GH secretion, as assessed by 12-h overnight blood sampling at 20-min intervals; GH responsiveness to i.v. bolus injection of GHRH; and levels of serum IGF-I and IGFBP-3, before and after GHRH stimulation, were measured at enrollment and after 6 weeks of each estrogen treatment. Before estrogen treatment, spontaneous nocturnal GH secretion and morning IGF-I levels tended to be lower, IGFBP-3 levels did not differ, and GHRH-stimulated GH levels were significantly reduced in older vs. younger postmenopausal women. Oral estrogens increased spontaneous GH secretion, decreased serum IGF- I levels, and did not alter IGFBP-3 levels, whereas transdermal estrogens did not alter nocturnal GH secretion or morning IGF-I levels and decreased IGFBP-3 levels only in the older women. GHRH-stimulated GH levels were similar before and after oral or transdermal estrogen treatment. In contrast, after, GHRH administration, IGF-I levels were decreased only with oral estrogens, whereas IGFBP-3 levels were decreased with both oral (younger women only) and transdermal (younger and older women) estrogens. We conclude that, in postmenopausal women, oral and transdermal estrogens exert differing effects on the GH/IGF-I axis, but neither form of estrogen completely reverses the known age- related reductions in spontaneous or GHRH-stimulated GH and IGF-I.

[bad rad]

Well back to the drawing board.

[crossbellas]

My wife is 49 years old and we started out with anavar 5mgs twice a day for 3 weeks, then bumped up to 10 mgs twice a day for 6 weeks. She started getting fuzzy and her legs were swelling a little and her mens stopped completely, so we dropped back to 5mgs twice a day for the last two weeks. Her mens came back and swelling went down. She is def. stronger and harder and horny as hell lol. She is alot leaner but she did not lose any weight at all. She was eating pretty clean the whole time but I would consider it off season. Cardio about twice a week. we are about to pull off for awhile, which brings to mind two questions.
1. Is there any type PCT that she should do?
2.How long should she stay off till the next cycle?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
:peace2:

[Big Sky Guy]

No need for PCT. Women have a tiny fraction of the test production of men so it is not as critical to get test production back on line as it is for men.

Off = On in most circumstances, unless that interferes with important plans like a vacation or competition. Low dose Var is generally not considered hard on a person's system. Determine why you are coming off and what you want to accomplish by going back on. If it is just to give the body a break...which is completely understood as most of us cannot make good use of 10 + weeks of pushing our body...then 4 weeks is enough of a break if you want to get back at adding size and strength as soon as possible. If this is more of a slow and steady then give it 8+ weeks to truly see what amount of muscle she added and can maintain with the 10 week run. Any adverse affects to blood parameters should be back to norm within 4-6 weeks, probably sooner with low dosing.

[foxbody351w]

I was just asking about women and AAS and birth control pills. My friend emailed me this article by Jerry Brainum over at Iron Man Magazine.


http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/blogs/jerrybrainum/?p=64



It doesn't discuss women on AAS, but I found the results of the study quite startling.




According to a study just presented at the annual Experimental Biology 2009 conference in New Orleans, women who use oral contraceptives, better known as birth control pills, may experienced hampered muscle gains when they lift weights. The study consisted of 73 healthy women, ages 18 to 31, who were assigned to either a birth control pill group (BCP), or a non-birth control group (NBCG). All the women participated in a 10-week weight-training program, training 3 days a week under the supervision of physiologists. They did both standard upper and lower body exercises, all for 3 sets of 6-10 reps, using weights equal to 75% of their maximum one-rep lift. Body composition in the women was measured by hydrostatic weighing. In addition, blood samples were obtained prior to, and after the training to measure various hormones, including DHEA, DHEA-S, and IGF-1.

The results showed that those not taking BCP gained 60% more lean mass compared to those taking the pills. On the other hand, strength gains and arm and leg circumferences were similar between the groups. The levels of the anabolic hormones, DHEA and IGF-1, were significantly lower in the women on the pill, while levels of the catabolic hormone, cortisol were higher in the pill users. The OCP also showed decreased levels of DHEA at the end of the study. In contrast, no change occurred in DHEA levels in the non-pill users.

The researchers who conducted this study were at a loss to explain the results, other than suggesting that BCP can impede muscle gains in women. On the other hand, while the pill users gained 60% less lean mass compared to their non-pill peers, both groups gained similar levels of strength and size in the legs and arms. This, of course, is a quite contradictory finding, and makes you wonder if much of the lean mass gains experienced by the non-pill users consisted of water. Curiously, testosterone wasn’t measured in the study, which would have somewhat clarified the results. Instead, only DHEA levels were measured. DHEA, however, is an adrenal androgen that tends to convert into testosterone in women far more readily that it does in men. But recent studies also show that DHEA doesn’t appear to promote muscle gains in exercising women. Since the women trained under supervision, we have to assume that they trained with an equal level of intensity, which would have influenced muscle gains. The elevated cortisol levels in the pill users likely played a major role in why they gained less lean mass, since the non-pill users didn’t show such elevations. The women were told to ingest at least 0.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. Normally, a high protein intake would offset much of the muscle catabolic effects linked to higher cortisol levels, but this level of protein may not have been enough to overcome the catabolic effects probably induced by the OC.

This new information does not apply to women using anabolic steroid drugs, which would make any effects of OC on muscle growth negligible. As the study authors suggest, there may be other, as yet unidentified mechanisms as work here, too. In the meantime, I doubt that many women would be willing to toss those birth control pills as a means of promoting muscle gains. Becoming pregnant when you don’t want to is a far more serious proposition than sacrificing some muscle gains in rational women


This is entirely true..BCP lowers test in women by about 50%..Serious fbb and figure competitors try to go either LOW LOW estradiol dose BCP or non hormonal IUD during contest prep because the effects that estrogen has on achieving low bodyfat levels.
I know firsthand that I have never been as low a bodyfat or as "muscular" looking than when I went off BCP. I have always worked super hard, ate clean, and did my cardio, but I never ever looked like I do now compared to when I was using BCP.. My test levels have been checked and while they are average for my age, my estrogen/progest. are low because Im not on BCP, which makes my "average" testosterone work in my body like nobodies business.
When a woman "supplements" with test or other AAS she is artificially messing with the ratios of female to male hormones in her body which makes her estrogen and progesterone automatically physiologically lower. Just as if you are a natural and you simply go off BCP you are putting the hormone balance back in favor of testosterone because you arent getting the extra female hormones BCP add in.

Bottom line is BCP= less muscle, less ripped to shreds body.

[crossbellas]

No need for PCT. Women have a tiny fraction of the test production of men so it is not as critical to get test production back on line as it is for men.

Off = On in most circumstances, unless that interferes with important plans like a vacation or competition. Low dose Var is generally not considered hard on a person's system. Determine why you are coming off and what you want to accomplish by going back on. If it is just to give the body a break...which is completely understood as most of us cannot make good use of 10 + weeks of pushing our body...then 4 weeks is enough of a break if you want to get back at adding size and strength as soon as possible. If this is more of a slow and steady then give it 8+ weeks to truly see what amount of muscle she added and can maintain with the 10 week run. Any adverse affects to blood parameters should be back to norm within 4-6 weeks, probably sooner with low dosing.


Thanks Big Guy. The four weeks off as suggested really worked out well. She didn't want to stay off that long, but she did anyway. What's your take on masteron for ladies?