"Anti-cardio diet" theory

[esgibson]

I'm about to graduate with a degree in exercise science and with the help of a few doctors physiology i have created my own diet theory. basically the theory is that u burn the fat in ur pre contest diet with the diet..not the cardio...this is because the cardio puts u at a catabolic state for too long. even if u could burn extreme amounts of calories durring cardio (which is hard to do) the intensity would be so high that you would be mainly using carbohydrates for fuel. low intensity cardio is great because it's easy and burns mainly fat but the problem arises when u have to do 2 hrs+ of cardio a day. the amount of cals burned in a super long session of cardio is pretty good but it takes a lot of time that most people don't have to spare or could be used to do something more productive..

the theory is that instead of keeping calories higher and doing cardio you must simple take the calories that u would have burned during cardio and subtract them from the overall calories before the day even starts...lets say u eat 3500 cals a day...instead of doing 30mins of cardio in the morning and waking up extra early to do so...just subtract 300 cals (estimation) from the day so now u'll be eating 3200 cals instead of 3500. u basically just did ur cardio..but now u don't have to worry about burning as much muscle because generally throughout the day..the intensity of ur day to day life won't make u burn as much muscle. plus how hard is it to not eat something...as opposed to waking up an hr+ early to do cardio then take a shower then eat and then go on with ur day. wait...i just did it...i didn't eat something...man that was easy...

now like i said before, most people can't get away with zero cardio throughout the entire prep...there comes a little bit in the final weeks just getting the last little bit off..but then again..everybody is different so what works for me might not work for u....i didn't create this theory because it worked for me..i created it in the offseason because i didn't like how much muscle i lost in precontest dieting and i also hated wakin up before classes to go do cardio.. i sat in my advanced physiology class and bombarded my professor with questions concerning lipolysis, carb and protein uptake, gluconeogenesis, and other bodybuilding related subjects. When i gathered all of my information and brought it to him after class...he surprisingly agree with my theory.."not exactly the most heart healthy thing u can do, but it should work" is what i was told.

I stated this diet 6 weeks ago at 13% bf and 185Lbs and now i'm 8.5% and 179Lbs...maybe it's a fluke or i'm just not the average natty but i've put on muscle while dieting...last year i competed at 150.5Lbs on stage and i plan on coming in much bigger this year because i can keep the hard earned muscle i have.

Anyone with questions or comments please feel free to ask them. if anything u'll help me find some holes in my theory and help me make it better. i really want peoples oppinions on this as well so please take a min to comment if you have no questions. thanks guys.

[ArabMuscle]

Cardio when dieting is not used to burn calories; it's used to burn stored fat, which is why bodybuilders do it on an empty stomach in the morning. Bodybuilders use calories to maintain and/or build muscle. Calories come into the equation once bodybuilders start focusing on the content of their food (i.e. less carbs, more fats and protein) in order to burn more fat.

Manipulating macros usually results in the manipulation of calories. Moreover, I've seen a lot of bodybuilders diet to lose fat as opposed to diet to maintain as much muscle as possible.

[AVBG]

There's no magic bullet. Hard work and discipline will and does get the job done.


You theory is simple.. Just don't eat the cals that you would have burnt during your cardio session.

[esgibson]

Cardio when dieting is not used to burn calories; it's used to burn stored fat, which is why bodybuilders do it on an empty stomach in the morning. Bodybuilders use calories to maintain and/or build muscle. Calories come into the equation once bodybuilders start focusing on the content of their food (i.e. less carbs, more fats and protein) in order to burn more fat.

Manipulating macros usually results in the manipulation of calories. Moreover, I've seen a lot of bodybuilders diet to lose fat as opposed to diet to maintain as much muscle as possible.

the bottom line when dieting or trying to lose bodyfat is to be in a catabolic state. to be in a catabolic state u must burn more calories than u consume. it doesn't matter how many few carbs you eat if u're 150 pounds and are consuming 1000g of protein and 300g of fat...ur going to gain fat weight..the keto diet is used to keep urself in a constant state of burning fat because the body can't use glycogen thus, the excess fat is used by gluconeogenesis to fuel the body by....KETONES...the keto diet is also very good for losing weight because it makes u feel less hungry because it controls the spikes in insulin as well as completely taking out a marco group...which makes it much easier to eat less.

if u notice that daves offseason diet is still very low carb...if the only way to lose fat was to drop ur carbs and increase fat then none of his clients would ever gain any weight. dave has said it himself...the offseason there are a few more carbs but just more food in general.

basically the bottom line of loosing weight is being in a catabolic state by being in a calorie deficit. when u are in a deficit and u do cardio it doesn't only burn fat. it depends on the intensity. the higher the intensity the more the body relies on carbs for the fuel source. the only way to be burning completely 100% fat is to be in a resting state/sleeping. i'd love to discuss this with u more so please elaborate on ur findings.

[esgibson]

There's no magic bullet. Hard work and discipline will and does get the job done.


You theory is simple.. Just don't eat the cals that you would have burnt during your cardio session.

that's exactly right. i'm not claiming to have a huge break through theory here that no one has ever thought of. it just against what most people, expecially beginners, believe. so u agree with me?

[Minnphat]

I agree with your theory, I just watched " I want to look like that guy", and the guy who made the video got to undert 5% with NO DRUGS by only doing 16 mins of cardio twice a day... his trainer really focused on lowering calories not cardio when he weight loss stalled.... I really dont see a big diffrence when I do cardio.... that being said I still do it it five times a week..... so who knows?? but I def agree overated...

[AVBG]

that's exactly right. i'm not claiming to have a huge break through theory here that no one has ever thought of. it just against what most people, expecially beginners, believe. so u agree with me?

Of course I do, but you're not "Robinson Crusoe" with the theory also there are other factors involved aswell - but the general theory no one can argue with.

[esgibson]

I agree with your theory, I just watched " I want to look like that guy", and the guy who made the video got to undert 5% with NO DRUGS by only doing 16 mins of cardio twice a day... his trainer really focused on lowering calories not cardio when he weight loss stalled.... I really dont see a big diffrence when I do cardio.... that being said I still do it it five times a week..... so who knows?? but I def agree overated...

completely over rated...that's all i'm getting at..if u could get away with not doing it..awsome but if not then u gotta do what u gotta do. i'm just throwin it out there and five times a week is really good for ur heart so keep it up bro and u'll be around for a while..i'm just talkin from a fat loss stand point that it's not as needed as the general population believes. thanx for the post man

[esgibson]

Of course I do, but you're not "Robinson Crusoe" with the theory also there are other factors involved aswell - but the general theory no one can argue with.

exactly my point...it's not suppose to be a ground breaking theory or anything...if a bodybuilder can keep even a few more pounds of muscle while dieting because they didn't do as much cardio. it starts adding up and i think we all want to be the best possible bodybuilders that we can be. thanx for the post tho.

[AVBG]

exactly my point...it's not suppose to be a ground breaking theory or anything...if a bodybuilder can keep even a few more pounds of muscle while dieting because they didn't do as much cardio. it starts adding up and i think we all want to be the best possible bodybuilders that we can be. thanx for the post tho.

Do you think it's also to do with people not getting the fundamentals right and consistent? That would be the way I'm leaning.

[esgibson]

Do you think it's also to do with people not getting the fundamentals right and consistent? That would be the way I'm leaning.

ofcourse! i believe that does play a big role. i know from personal experience that beginning bodybuilders have a problem staying consistent. i know that was my problem the first couple tries at it. there are several factors that go into the outcome of how u do in ur contest prep. EVERYTHING has to do it with even stress! i was just hoping that people would read this and take something away that might help them in the future. whether it's helping them stay more relaxed and have more fun during precontest dieting or not killing themselves with cardio and burning up all their hard earned muscle. yes i completely agree with u.

[Rwdecker]

Following a diet/workout plan that incorporates zero cardio would be the perfect strategy, only if it could work for everyone. For me, i still have to do the cardio.. mainly because im still a little in expirienced with dieting.. and still havent found what works right for me... back to cardio for me....... only a few times a week 20 to 30 mins max.. low intensity..

On the subject of doing cardio all week, 1 to 2+ hours a session.. CAN actually be very detrimental to overall conditioning and "hardness." Not only can it be detrimental from the use of amino acids from body protein, there are studies which show the more cardio you do while trying to burn fat, The more fat your WILL store in return, subcutaneous and intramuscular (inside sarcomere).

When the muscle is exercised often at the level of fat oxidation, it becomes more aerobically trained, the body is very aware of the prime energy source used to fuel the muscle. "fat". When doing cardio, compared to not doing cardio, the body burns fat at a much faster rate and can be in a sence a "shock" to the body, because The body doesnt like using fat stores. the body knows how necessary the fat stores are to maintain because of its calorie rich ability.. SO the body will store fat and most times, extra, to make sure there is enough source available... SO i would have to agree with not doing cardio.. but untill i find my perfect macro %s and how to change them effectively.. i'll still incorporate 20 to 30 mins.

rwd

[esgibson]

Following a diet/workout plan that incorporates zero cardio would be the perfect strategy, only if it could work for everyone. For me, i still have to do the cardio.. mainly because im still a little in expirienced with dieting.. and still havent found what works right for me... back to cardio for me....... only a few times a week 20 to 30 mins max.. low intensity..

On the subject of doing cardio all week, 1 to 2+ hours a session.. CAN actually be very detrimental to overall conditioning and "hardness." Not only can it be detrimental from the use of amino acids from body protein, there are studies which show the more cardio you do while trying to burn fat, The more fat your WILL store in return, subcutaneous and intramuscular (inside sarcomere).

When the muscle is exercised often at the level of fat oxidation, it becomes more aerobically trained, the body is very aware of the prime energy source used to fuel the muscle. "fat". When doing cardio, compared to not doing cardio, the body burns fat at a much faster rate and can be in a sence a "shock" to the body, because The body doesnt like using fat stores. the body knows how necessary the fat stores are to maintain because of its calorie rich ability.. SO the body will store fat and most times, extra, to make sure there is enough source available... SO i would have to agree with not doing cardio.. but untill i find my perfect macro %s and how to change them effectively.. i'll still incorporate 20 to 30 mins.

rwd

rwd brings up a good point. when humans were evolving we would gorge themselves and then go days without eating after words because they couldn't take their food and put it in the fridge. the body is very good at storing fat and when excess cardio is used the body gets very efficient with holding on to calories and storing new ones aka fat. optimally, u want ur body as inefficient as possible when it comes to storing fat and holding on to calories. the way to do this is to experiement with ur diet in the offseason and try several different approaches when dieting for different shows. find out what nutrition approach works for u and keep the cardio out as much as possible. i must stress that u have to know what kind of nutrition works for ur body because everybody is different. thanx for the post rwd and very good point.

[Rwdecker]

rice and beans

[esgibson]

rice and beans

haha is that the magic food? i'm having alot of luck with venison personally...and brown rice...and o HOT SAUCE! i can't live without it anymore..

[rockhard]

I agree with the basis of your theory, but I believe cardio can be used effectively to assist in fat loss with minimal muscle loss. You point out the calories burned only DURING the cardio session, but if HIIT or even moderate cardio is performed, there is an elevation of metabolism for hours after the session. THIS is where most of the fat burning will take place, not during the session. I agree that low intensity cardio, fasted, will burn a large proportion of calories from fat during the session and once you stop it also stops. I use both methods in my prep, along with diet, to achieve excellent conditioning. The thing is, find what works for YOU, and everyone may respond differently. I personally feel better and stronger in the weight room if I keep my calories higher and incorporate cardio. You have made a very good argument and I'll enjoy following this thread.

[esgibson]

I agree with the basis of your theory, but I believe cardio can be used effectively to assist in fat loss with minimal muscle loss. You point out the calories burned only DURING the cardio session, but if HIIT or even moderate cardio is performed, there is an elevation of metabolism for hours after the session. THIS is where most of the fat burning will take place, not during the session. I agree that low intensity cardio, fasted, will burn a large proportion of calories from fat during the session and once you stop it also stops. I use both methods in my prep, along with diet, to achieve excellent conditioning. The thing is, find what works for YOU, and everyone may respond differently. I personally feel better and stronger in the weight room if I keep my calories higher and incorporate cardio. You have made a very good argument and I'll enjoy following this thread.

i really like how u stressed that u have to find what work for YOU and how everybody is different. me personally, i feel stronger when i sleep a little more and keep cardio out as long as possible. ur point with high intensity cardio is 100% correct. u definitly burn more calories after the fact than u would have without. my concern with high intensity cardio is that when ur body gets used to doing that or becomes more efficient (as i said it a prev post) the cardio becomes less and less effective everytime because the body get better at holding and re-storing calories. it's definitly not a natural thing for a person to want to be 3% bf. fat and happy is how ur body wants to be and it doesn't want to be hungry either. if the cardio is started to early in the diet, the body will get more and more efficient throughout. i always try to keep a little something in my back pocket incase my fatloss stops. when ur already doing cardio u don't have that in ur pocket anymore...it's on the table and u can either bump it up or cut cals overall. the more cardio u do..the more u worry about burn up ur muscle.

if it makes u feel better physically or u just think it's more effective for u then keep doing it! u know ur body better than anybody else...especially me. i just don't want anyone to feel like they have to and that's their only option. best case senario...keep it out untill ur to a bf where ur body make u hold ur fat..around 5 or 6 for most people..then start to get the last bit off to come in hard and shredded to the bone!

[rockhard]

if it makes u feel better physically or u just think it's more effective for u then keep doing it! u know ur body better than anybody else...especially me. i just don't want anyone to feel like they have to and that's their only option. best case senario...keep it out untill ur to a bf where ur body make u hold ur fat..around 5 or 6 for most people..then start to get the last bit off to come in hard and shredded to the bone![/quote]

You make very good points and we all know there is more than one way to skin a cat. I have seen guys shredded with cardio/no cardio, high carbs/no carbs, cut water/2 gallons on contest day,carb load/no carb load, etc......I enjoy reading/studying everything out there, just more tools for the toolbox. I am not afraid to break from convention and try new things, as this is the only way to really learn YOUR body and what works best for YOU. Keep posting, good stuff on here!

[knate]

I agree with the basis of your theory, but I believe cardio can be used effectively to assist in fat loss with minimal muscle loss. You point out the calories burned only DURING the cardio session, but if HIIT or even moderate cardio is performed, there is an elevation of metabolism for hours after the session. THIS is where most of the fat burning will take place, not during the session. I agree that low intensity cardio, fasted, will burn a large proportion of calories from fat during the session and once you stop it also stops. I use both methods in my prep, along with diet, to achieve excellent conditioning. The thing is, find what works for YOU, and everyone may respond differently. I personally feel better and stronger in the weight room if I keep my calories higher and incorporate cardio. You have made a very good argument and I'll enjoy following this thread.

I like this idea and personally like to keep more calories going in and use supplements and cardio to adjust fat loss until it stops, then i will adjust my caloric intake. I am currently keto and have been for the past 10 1/2 weeks. I haven't had to adjust my calories yet and have only been doing 25 minutes of low intensity cardio twice a week. Last year when I was getting ready for a show, I was overdieting and doing too much cardio which ate away the muscle as expected and I learned a lot from the experience. The idea of finding a balance is what is optimal in the end.

[J Franco]

I too thought the same thing in my 20's, LOL. And this is when I graduated with my Exer Phys degress also.

I am now 38 and did more cardio then ever for my last show and looked my best. If you plan right, cardio is a valuable tool. It really assist in many aspects of fat loss beside buring calories.

But again, do what is best for you.

[rockhard]

I too thought the same thing in my 20's, LOL. And this is when I graduated with my Exer Phys degress also.

I am now 38 and did more cardio then ever for my last show and looked my best. If you plan right, cardio is a valuable tool. It really assist in many aspects of fat loss beside buring calories.

But again, do what is best for you.
I'm with Joe, at age 44 I need all of the help I can get so cardio will be in my prep. Besides, heart health is a factor and cardio is a must for that.

[esgibson]

I'm with Joe, at age 44 I need all of the help I can get so cardio will be in my prep. Besides, heart health is a factor and cardio is a must for that.

if heart health is a factor...which it should be for everyone...then do ur cardio even in the off season but the bottom line is to do what is best for ur body..i know from experience with my body that when i did cardio it make dieting much much harder as well as stressful but on the other hand..i do believe that it should be used sometime during the prep..mainly in the final weeks to get the last little bit off. the whole efficiency with fat burning is real and ur body does get used to doing cardio and learns to hold and store calories better..but like we all said..whatever works best for u keep doin it..in my oppinion..i believe that generally speaking many bber start cardio too early for optimal results from the cardio sessions themselves

[fltallpaul]

The idea of doing no cardio is something everyone will grab onto but in the end almost no one will get on stage as ripped as Joe without cardio.

Keeping muscle during contest prep is a formula we all have to figure out. BCAA's and the timing of meals is the most important thing. I never do cardio in a fasted state and I use a mix of HIIT cardio as well as Low Intensity.

Your idea of lowering calories is a good one but what happens when you get down to the point where your eating 1500 calories and not losing fat? Dropping calories too low will interfere with the hormonal processes that allow you to continue to progress. Cardio is just a tool which allows fat loss to continue.

I have never done 2 hours of cardio during prep, 30 minutes is my limit but we are all different. Good luck with your theory, I am sure there are alot of people prepping right now who want you to be right.

[esgibson]

well if u read the entire thread u would've seen my part about a sticking point when cardio is used to get in the best shape possible but my point is ppl generally start cardio to soon...that's all...read it all please

[gmta99]

sound's good to me

[RDFinders]

well if u read the entire thread u would've seen my part about a sticking point when cardio is used to get in the best shape possible but my point is ppl generally start cardio to soon...that's all...read it all please
i get you think people start cardio too soon, but i have always thought people start cardio too late in prep mode. or i should say, start prep too late. my rationale is keeping cardio in and staying in better shape cardio vascular wise is important to maintain fat burning processes. the better shape you are in, the faster your body will convert to fat as a main fuel source during cardio. but i am curious about doing a prep with minimal cardio as it seems more and more people are doing it/done it. i have a barrier in my mind about it not working, so i would have to see and live it.

[esgibson]

i get you think people start cardio too soon, but i have always thought people start cardio too late in prep mode. or i should say, start prep too late. my rationale is keeping cardio in and staying in better shape cardio vascular wise is important to maintain fat burning processes. the better shape you are in, the faster your body will convert to fat as a main fuel source during cardio. but i am curious about doing a prep with minimal cardio as it seems more and more people are doing it/done it. i have a barrier in my mind about it not working, so i would have to see and live it.

maybe it's not so much that people are starting their diets late but just getting to fat in the offseason..i'm a victim of that myself...this time i stayed fairly lean.. around 12% at my heaviest and the weight is coming off no problem what so ever with the diet and weight training alone..in the final few weeks when i do start doing cardio..i plan on my last few pounds to come off worry free so i can come in hard, shredded, and confident.

[Rwdecker]

beans and rice maybe??

[RDFinders]

maybe it's not so much that people are starting their diets late but just getting to fat in the offseason..i'm a victim of that myself...this time i stayed fairly lean.. around 12% at my heaviest and the weight is coming off no problem what so ever with the diet and weight training alone..in the final few weeks when i do start doing cardio..i plan on my last few pounds to come off worry free so i can come in hard, shredded, and confident.
yeah, i can def agree with you there on too much offseason weight gain. i think as you become more experienced with competing, the less weight gain you should have in your offseason as the majority of the time, IMO the mass is there, you just need to refine what you have. at least that's where i am in this stage called competing.

[esgibson]

yeah, i can def agree with you there on too much offseason weight gain. i think as you become more experienced with competing, the less weight gain you should have in your offseason as the majority of the time, IMO the mass is there, you just need to refine what you have. at least that's where i am in this stage called competing.

that's a good point. i really made an effort to stay under 12% this year and i only got a few pounds over but the past few years i started my diet higher than that and lost alot of muscle because of it..i finally had a productive offseason and thanks to my new findings with my professors i've actually gained 2 pounds of lean mass while i've been dieting so far and plan on coming in any where from 15-18 pounds heavier than last year...all natural of course!

[RDFinders]

that's a good point. i really made an effort to stay under 12% this year and i only got a few pounds over but the past few years i started my diet higher than that and lost alot of muscle because of it..i finally had a productive offseason and thanks to my new findings with my professors i've actually gained 2 pounds of lean mass while i've been dieting so far and plan on coming in any where from 15-18 pounds heavier than last year...all natural of course!
i think a lot of us fall into the deprived mode when coming off contest prep. offseasons should be planned as much as prep, if you are planning to go pro with this endeavor/hobby.

[Nitro Fueled Barbie/Mel Marx]

The theory behind cardio isn't what 's burned during cardio but the state your body is in post cardio.....you continue to burn calories......I forget what it's called you have to excuse me, I just woke up......lol.....

[esgibson]

The theory behind cardio isn't what 's burned during cardio but the state your body is in post cardio.....you continue to burn calories......I forget what it's called you have to excuse me, I just woke up......lol.....

u must have missed the whole efficiency of fat burning and holding/restoring calories part of my argument...no disrespect...i just keep getting the same arguments from everyone that disagrees and i'm tired of answering the same comments over and over

[bhman6]

The theory behind cardio isn't what 's burned during cardio but the state your body is in post cardio.....you continue to burn calories......I forget what it's called you have to excuse me, I just woke up......lol.....


u must have missed the whole efficiency of fat burning and holding/restoring calories part of my argument...no disrespect...i just keep getting the same arguments from everyone that disagrees and i'm tired of answering the same comments over and over


(s)he's referring to EPOC, which is acquired from higher intense cardio (more anaerobic)

this does NOT have the same metabolic and hormonal effects as traditional cardio that you are saying are counterproductive to gaining/retaining muscle...i.e. efficiency, holding/restoring calories, etc.

high intense cardio makes you better at burning fat at rest while sparing glycogen and elevates fat burning enzymes and machinery...both of these effects literally make you a fat burning machine at rest

[Nitro Fueled Barbie/Mel Marx]

(s)he's referring to EPOC, which is acquired from higher intense cardio (more anaerobic)

this does NOT have the same metabolic and hormonal effects as traditional cardio that you are saying are counterproductive to gaining/retaining muscle...i.e. efficiency, holding/restoring calories, etc.

high intense cardio makes you better at burning fat at rest while sparing glycogen and elevates fat burning enzymes and machinery...both of these effects literally make you a fat burning machine at rest

Thanks......very long day yesterday I was drained while typing this.....lol

[-BLP-]

i am not a nattie but i will cut my gym cardio pre contest ,, reason his i get so hyper on keto diet that im doin slow cardio all day long !

[esgibson]

(s)he's referring to EPOC, which is acquired from higher intense cardio (more anaerobic)

this does NOT have the same metabolic and hormonal effects as traditional cardio that you are saying are counterproductive to gaining/retaining muscle...i.e. efficiency, holding/restoring calories, etc.

high intense cardio makes you better at burning fat at rest while sparing glycogen and elevates fat burning enzymes and machinery...both of these effects literally make you a fat burning machine at rest

thank u for correcting me. that must have been a typo the way it came out. when i was talking about efficiency i meant it as an exerciser. ur motions become more flawless because u get better at whatever ur doing right? From a weight loss perspective, this can be viewed negatively because u want to burn as many kcals during exercise as possible. If u take 2 people and put them through an identical aerobic workout (e.g. 6 mph jog for 20 minutes), the more aerobically trained person will burn fewer kcals than the untrained, less efficient exerciser. However, the aerobically trained person will wind up using more fat during that workout, and will burn more fat AND kcals throughout the rest of the day because regular exercise enhances BMR.

the theory is logical because fat loss can occur without aerobic training (i.e. from a calorie restrictive diet), and aerobic training may slightly compromise the muscle-building accomplished with resistance training.

i'm not saying that cardio doesn't aid in fat loss. i'm saying keep it out as long as u can because it's not necessary.
Thank you for catching me on that though. i really do appreciate it. i'd hate to give people wrong information.

[esgibson]

thank u for correcting me. that must have been a typo the way it came out. when i was talking about efficiency i meant it as an exerciser. ur motions become more flawless because u get better at whatever ur doing right? From a weight loss perspective, this can be viewed negatively because u want to burn as many kcals during exercise as possible. If u take 2 people and put them through an identical aerobic workout (e.g. 6 mph jog for 20 minutes), the more aerobically trained person will burn fewer kcals than the untrained, less efficient exerciser. However, the aerobically trained person will wind up using more fat during that workout, and will burn more fat AND kcals throughout the rest of the day because regular exercise enhances BMR.

the theory is logical because fat loss can occur without aerobic training (i.e. from a calorie restrictive diet), and aerobic training may slightly compromise the muscle-building accomplished with resistance training.

i'm not saying that cardio doesn't aid in fat loss. i'm saying keep it out as long as u can because it's not necessary.
Thank you for catching me on that though. i really do appreciate it. i'd hate to give people wrong information.

sorry about the font change there...did it without realizing it haha..cardio does aid in fatloss but high intensity cardio is known to burn up muscle as we all know...all i'm saying is that it seems more logical to keep cardio out for longer than risking burning up the muscle if u don't have to yet. keep in mind i didn't say COMPLETELY keep cardio out...keep it out til the stick point where u gotta high jack ur metabolism and force the fat off of u! thanks guys.

[fltallpaul]

high intensity cardio is known to burn up muscle as we all know...

I believe this statement can't be used as a blanket statement. I use HIIT cardio and feel it allows me to keep more muscle. I believe a mixture of cardio methods is best from personal experience.

I increased my strength on a few major lifts this last contest season while only a few weeks out from the contest. I believe this was attributed to my diet being spot on, lifting heavy and starting my prep early enough so that I did not have to lose weight too quickly.

I agree with what you are saying about using cardio as a tool and not starting week 1 of prep with 2 hours of cardio a day. The title of the thread is a little misleading is all. Your idea is very sound and I like that you are using your head and not accepting contest prep dogma as fact!

[esgibson]

I believe this statement can't be used as a blanket statement. I use HIIT cardio and feel it allows me to keep more muscle. I believe a mixture of cardio methods is best from personal experience.

I increased my strength on a few major lifts this last contest season while only a few weeks out from the contest. I believe this was attributed to my diet being spot on, lifting heavy and starting my prep early enough so that I did not have to lose weight too quickly.

I agree with what you are saying about using cardio as a tool and not starting week 1 of prep with 2 hours of cardio a day. The title of the thread is a little misleading is all. Your idea is very sound and I like that you are using your head and not accepting contest prep dogma as fact!

i used the thread title to get attention to it...and it obviously worked! thank u for ur input and always do what works for u! everybody's body works differently...i'm just trying show people the facts and tell from my personal success with this theory as well as the fact that i'm backed by many doctors of exercise science at my unversity.

[fltallpaul]

You might enjoy this exceprt from an article by Layne Norton. There is extensive research which shows HIIT used correctly is more muscle sparing than LISS. I feel not more than 2-3 times a week, as Layne does. Lyle McDonald also has some great stuff on his site regarding this.



Another question that often arises regarding cardio is the argument "Low-Intensity vs High-Intensity" cardio. Many people automatically assume that low-intensity cardio is better; citing that high-intensity cardio primarily utilizes glucose (anaerobic metabolism), while low-intensity cardio primarily burns fat (aerobic metabolism).
Once again, the substrate used during cardiovascular work is not as important as the caloric deficit created by the cardiovascular work. In actuality, high-intensity cardiovascular work is superior to low-intensity cardio for several reasons
High intensity cardio has a much stronger effect on GLUT-4 translocation in muscle cells due to the increased force of muscle contraction. This means that high-intensity cardio creates a much stronger nutrient partitioning effect towards muscle tissue than low-intensity cardio.
Low periods of low-intensity exercise tend to "overtrain (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=Overtraining)" the fast-twitch muscle fibers and convert the intermediate muscle fibers to slow-twitch fibers. This is not a desirable effect as the fast twitch muscle fibers are those that have the greatest chance to hypertrophy. If your body has less fast twitch fibers, then you will experience less hypertrophy from training.

The body's hormonal response to high intensity cardio is similar to the body's hormonal response to resistance training (i.e. increased insulin sensitivity, gh release, Igf-1 release, etc) without placing the same strain on the nervous system as resistance training.
High-intensity cardio causes the body to preferentially store more carbohydrates and burn more fat.
High-intensity cardiovascular exercise increases oxygen expenditure and forces the body to adapt by becoming more efficient at oxygen transport (increase in VO2 max). More efficient oxygen transport to the muscles will increase fat oxidation as fat oxidation is dependant upon the presence of oxygen.
High-intensity cardio seems to be more muscle sparing. Several studies have shown that high-intensity interval training (aka HIT (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=HITPrograms)) burns less calories when compared to continuous lower intensity cardio. However, the skinfold losses were greater with the HIT group than in the continuous intensity group. This means not only did the HIT group lose more fat, they also spared more muscle tissue by burning less overall calories . At this point I am going to refer you to several articles that I think are some of the best I've seen regarding cardiovascular work. I urge you to read them as they will re-emphasize what I have already stated, as well as help you gain a further understanding of how cardiovascular work effects your metabolism.

[esgibson]

You might enjoy this exceprt from an article by Layne Norton. There is extensive research which shows HIIT used correctly is more muscle sparing than LISS. I feel not more than 2-3 times a week, as Layne does. Lyle McDonald also has some great stuff on his site regarding this.



Another question that often arises regarding cardio is the argument "Low-Intensity vs High-Intensity" cardio. Many people automatically assume that low-intensity cardio is better; citing that high-intensity cardio primarily utilizes glucose (anaerobic metabolism), while low-intensity cardio primarily burns fat (aerobic metabolism).
Once again, the substrate used during cardiovascular work is not as important as the caloric deficit created by the cardiovascular work. In actuality, high-intensity cardiovascular work is superior to low-intensity cardio for several reasons
High intensity cardio has a much stronger effect on GLUT-4 translocation in muscle cells due to the increased force of muscle contraction. This means that high-intensity cardio creates a much stronger nutrient partitioning effect towards muscle tissue than low-intensity cardio.
Low periods of low-intensity exercise tend to "overtrain (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=Overtraining)" the fast-twitch muscle fibers and convert the intermediate muscle fibers to slow-twitch fibers. This is not a desirable effect as the fast twitch muscle fibers are those that have the greatest chance to hypertrophy. If your body has less fast twitch fibers, then you will experience less hypertrophy from training.

The body's hormonal response to high intensity cardio is similar to the body's hormonal response to resistance training (i.e. increased insulin sensitivity, gh release, Igf-1 release, etc) without placing the same strain on the nervous system as resistance training.
High-intensity cardio causes the body to preferentially store more carbohydrates and burn more fat.
High-intensity cardiovascular exercise increases oxygen expenditure and forces the body to adapt by becoming more efficient at oxygen transport (increase in VO2 max). More efficient oxygen transport to the muscles will increase fat oxidation as fat oxidation is dependant upon the presence of oxygen.
High-intensity cardio seems to be more muscle sparing. Several studies have shown that high-intensity interval training (aka HIT (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=HITPrograms)) burns less calories when compared to continuous lower intensity cardio. However, the skinfold losses were greater with the HIT group than in the continuous intensity group. This means not only did the HIT group lose more fat, they also spared more muscle tissue by burning less overall calories . At this point I am going to refer you to several articles that I think are some of the best I've seen regarding cardiovascular work. I urge you to read them as they will re-emphasize what I have already stated, as well as help you gain a further understanding of how cardiovascular work effects your metabolism.

well i agree with the majority of what u said. BUT u confused fast twitch and slow twitch fibers. there is little conclusive evidence that one can actually change the fiber type in the muscle and the fast twitch and anaerobic (used in weight lifting) the slow twitch is very aerobic (using in exercise like running/biking/etc.) the slow twitch is very oxidative which caused them to fatigue very slow (compared to fast twitch fibers) this is reason why muscle that are used in posture fatigue very slow...they slow twitch.

u also say "high intensity cardio seems to be more muscle sparing. several studies have show that high intensity interval training (aka hitt) burns LESS calories when compared to continuous lower intensity cardio. this means not only did the hitt group lose more fat, they also spared more muscle tissue by burning less overall calories."
i woudl like to see these "several studies", how can you burn more fat and burn less calories while sparing muscle tissue during high intensity cardio?

i realize that u're very stubborn on this topic and i'm probably never going to change ur mind. i would however like to reiterate my point that i AGREE that cardio aids in burning fat. my point of the article is to advise bodybuilders to leave it out as much as possible so that they don't RISK losing their hard earned muscle. I DO BELIEVE THAT CARDIO IS NECESSARY FOR MOST BODYBUILDERS IN THE FINALS WEEKS OF PREP TO GET THE LAST LITTLE BIT OF FAT OFF TO ACHIEVE OPTIMAL CONDITION.

then again, do what you think works best for you. i'm just trying to give people the facts so they can make an educated decision for themselves.

Please post a link to these studies supporting ur findings.

[esgibson]

You might enjoy this exceprt from an article by Layne Norton. There is extensive research which shows HIIT used correctly is more muscle sparing than LISS. I feel not more than 2-3 times a week, as Layne does. Lyle McDonald also has some great stuff on his site regarding this.



Another question that often arises regarding cardio is the argument "Low-Intensity vs High-Intensity" cardio. Many people automatically assume that low-intensity cardio is better; citing that high-intensity cardio primarily utilizes glucose (anaerobic metabolism), while low-intensity cardio primarily burns fat (aerobic metabolism).
Once again, the substrate used during cardiovascular work is not as important as the caloric deficit created by the cardiovascular work. In actuality, high-intensity cardiovascular work is superior to low-intensity cardio for several reasons
High intensity cardio has a much stronger effect on GLUT-4 translocation in muscle cells due to the increased force of muscle contraction. This means that high-intensity cardio creates a much stronger nutrient partitioning effect towards muscle tissue than low-intensity cardio.
Low periods of low-intensity exercise tend to "overtrain (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=Overtraining)" the fast-twitch muscle fibers and convert the intermediate muscle fibers to slow-twitch fibers. This is not a desirable effect as the fast twitch muscle fibers are those that have the greatest chance to hypertrophy. If your body has less fast twitch fibers, then you will experience less hypertrophy from training.

The body's hormonal response to high intensity cardio is similar to the body's hormonal response to resistance training (i.e. increased insulin sensitivity, gh release, Igf-1 release, etc) without placing the same strain on the nervous system as resistance training.
High-intensity cardio causes the body to preferentially store more carbohydrates and burn more fat.
High-intensity cardiovascular exercise increases oxygen expenditure and forces the body to adapt by becoming more efficient at oxygen transport (increase in VO2 max). More efficient oxygen transport to the muscles will increase fat oxidation as fat oxidation is dependant upon the presence of oxygen.
High-intensity cardio seems to be more muscle sparing. Several studies have shown that high-intensity interval training (aka HIT (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=HITPrograms)) burns less calories when compared to continuous lower intensity cardio. However, the skinfold losses were greater with the HIT group than in the continuous intensity group. This means not only did the HIT group lose more fat, they also spared more muscle tissue by burning less overall calories . At this point I am going to refer you to several articles that I think are some of the best I've seen regarding cardiovascular work. I urge you to read them as they will re-emphasize what I have already stated, as well as help you gain a further understanding of how cardiovascular work effects your metabolism.

i'm also kind of confused why in the post the other day u agreed with my theory and said that the title is just misleading. so u agreed the other day and now u don't?

[bhman6]

sorry about the font change there...did it without realizing it haha..cardio does aid in fatloss but high intensity cardio is known to burn up muscle as we all know...all i'm saying is that it seems more logical to keep cardio out for longer than risking burning up the muscle if u don't have to yet. keep in mind i didn't say COMPLETELY keep cardio out...keep it out til the stick point where u gotta high jack ur metabolism and force the fat off of u! thanks guys.


by what mechanism do you think you'll lose muscle doing high intense cardio

long duration cardio, yes if done long enough

fasted high intense cardio, yes if glycogen wasn't readily available to maintain blood glucose

but non-fasted high intense cardio....by what mechanism do you think you'll lose muscle

["Rodz"]

i really like how u stressed that u have to find what work for YOU and how everybody is different. me personally, i feel stronger when i sleep a little more and keep cardio out as long as possible. ur point with high intensity cardio is 100% correct. u definitly burn more calories after the fact than u would have without. my concern with high intensity cardio is that when ur body gets used to doing that or becomes more efficient (as i said it a prev post) the cardio becomes less and less effective everytime because the body get better at holding and re-storing calories. it's definitly not a natural thing for a person to want to be 3% bf. fat and happy is how ur body wants to be and it doesn't want to be hungry either. if the cardio is started to early in the diet, the body will get more and more efficient throughout. i always try to keep a little something in my back pocket incase my fatloss stops. when ur already doing cardio u don't have that in ur pocket anymore...it's on the table and u can either bump it up or cut cals overall. the more cardio u do..the more u worry about burn up ur muscle.

if it makes u feel better physically or u just think it's more effective for u then keep doing it! u know ur body better than anybody else...especially me. i just don't want anyone to feel like they have to and that's their only option. best case senario...keep it out untill ur to a bf where ur body make u hold ur fat..around 5 or 6 for most people..then start to get the last bit off to come in hard and shredded to the bone!



Great thread , very thought provoking!!!
What are your thought about cycling diff levels of cardio, HIT and low, to help prevent apathy

[esgibson]

by what mechanism do you think you'll lose muscle doing high intense cardio

long duration cardio, yes if done long enough

fasted high intense cardio, yes if glycogen wasn't readily available to maintain blood glucose

but non-fasted high intense cardio....by what mechanism do you think you'll lose muscle

well it's a little bit different with high intensity cardio because it does utilize muscle glycogen for fuel. in a fed state it's a much better situation but then u run the risk of using muscle glycogen and depleting them more than they would be for ur weight training. which will weaken u. thus, u can't stress or work the muscle as much which is puttin u at the risk of 1. over training and 2. DECREASING MUSCLE MASS.

if ur eating enough to calories to replenish glycogen stores then it just seems more logical to subtract the "would be burned" calories and save the energy and put that much more energy into ur weights/recovery.

i hope this answered ur question. please let me know if it didn't.

[illwill]

For those interested in this subject of interval training vs steady state, Lyle McDonald talked for a month straight last year on the subject. As usual, Lyle is very wordy and thorough in his break down.

I have included the link to his conclusion which also will provide links to all the preceding articles as well.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/stead-state-versus-intervals-finally-a-conclusion.html

[esgibson]

For those interested in this subject of interval training vs steady state, Lyle McDonald talked for a month straight last year on the subject. As usual, Lyle is very wordy and thorough in his break down.

I have included the link to his conclusion which also will provide links to all the preceding articles as well.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/stead-state-versus-intervals-finally-a-conclusion.html

thanks for the post man. i was looking through it and it seemed to me that he's not very optimistic when it comes to hiit cardio. maybe i missed the jist of the article.

what did u get out of the article?

[illwill]

What I got from his series of articles was he believes the benefits of EPOC are over stated and/or sometimes mistaken with the thermal effect of food in the 24 hours post the cardio session. Not that EPOC does not exist, only that it's not the end all be all. In the end, if you need to use cardio, do BOTH - intervals and steady state during the course of the week. As they both have different pros and cons.

[esgibson]

What I got from his series of articles was he believes the benefits of EPOC are over stated and/or sometimes mistaken with the thermal effect of food in the 24 hours post the cardio session. Not that EPOC does not exist, only that it's not the end all be all. In the end, if you need to use cardio, do BOTH - intervals and steady state during the course of the week. As they both have different pros and cons.

i like that. if u need to use cardio a healthy mixture of both would probably be best and keep ur from blowin ur brains out from boredom. good post bro.

[bhman6]

well it's a little bit different with high intensity cardio because it does utilize muscle glycogen for fuel. in a fed state it's a much better situation but then u run the risk of using muscle glycogen and depleting them more than they would be for ur weight training. which will weaken u.

that's a very gross generalization

the whole point in HIIT it to utilize glycogen during to allow you to better use fat at rest the rest of the day

most guys utilizing HIIT WANT to use glycogen and simply accomodate by eating slightly more carbs



thus, u can't stress or work the muscle as much which is puttin u at the risk of 1. over training and 2. DECREASING MUSCLE MASS.

again, another gross generalization

you can work at maximum strength without full glycogen reserves provided your exercise volume isn't ridiculously high

define "stress" or "work" the muscle...as these aren't physiologically defined in any manner respective to this argument. are you implying the muscle fibers themselves cannot tolerate the increased workload that HIIT will require on top of strength training? adaptation WILL occur provided you approach this style of cardio intelligently in a periodized system that matches the intensities of your strength training and nutritional support system




if ur eating enough to calories to replenish glycogen stores then it just seems more logical to subtract the "would be burned" calories and save the energy and put that much more energy into ur weights/recovery.


just because it's logical doesn't mean it's physiolological

as I stated above, the carb calories in vs. out do not matter in this situation, as it'sthe fat calories you burn NOT doing anything the rest of the day that ultimately matter. You burn MORE fat a a result of HIIT during the other 23.75 hours a day than you do if you simply cut calories

you could remove 100 calories from carbs from your diet and have a 100 calorie carb deficit

or

you could eat those 100 calories and essentially burn then off during HIIT, causing a caloric balance and essentially untouched glycogen levels

BUT....you will lose another 100-300 calories worth of FAT at rest

so in essence, your method of just strictly removing calories will probably cause more glycogen depletion and muscle loss, not to mention you lose out on the carbohydrate content of your diet's ability to keep thyroid levels elevated and spare muscle protein from undergoing GNG




i hope this answered ur question. please let me know if it didn't.




I asked rhetorical questions, so I didn't need an answer specifically

you bring good points to the thread, but I would advise against using your soon-to-be acquired bs in exercise science as evidence that what you speak is ultimately infallable truth

I always like to say there's no black and whites in bodybuilding...only shades of grey (or gray :) )

[bhman6]

do BOTH - intervals and steady state during the course of the week. As they both have different pros and cons.


agreed

one primary benefit from HIIT isn't just the EPOC, but HIIT also makes your low intense cardio sessions more productive because HIIT causes elevations in lipase enzymes, mitochondria count and capillary density, all of which make low intense cardio sessions more productive in using free fatty acids as a fuel source

another benefit of HIIT is the elevation in VO2max compared to traditional cardio. Yes, on one hand you do get more efficient with your cardio, which might not be ideal, but on the other hand, the more efficient your cardiovascular system is, the more likely you will be able to continue the pyruvate to acetyl-CoA conversion needed to push Acetyl-CoA into the Kreb's cycle for aerobic metabolism (i.e. fat burning)

without an efficient cardiovascular system, all the way from the heart and lungs down to the mitochondria and enzyme systems, glycolysis will outpace the conversion of pyruvate into Acetyl-CoA and lactate will be produced, which wouldn't be idea to burning fat

so it's a win-win with HIIT...elevated metabolism, increased capacity to utilize fat a fuel at rest, increased capacity to use fat as fuel during low intense cardio, decreased muscle glycogen depletion (assuming a fed state), and potentially increased cell volume if nutrient timing is taken into acccount (carbs, sodium, creating, etc.) around HIIT, since cell swelling has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis independent of substrate availability

[bhman6]

if you're at all familiar with Dr. Tabata's research, he's shown repeatedly that HIIT can improve the aerobic system without compromising the anaerobic system (i.e. strength), and even enhances it

[esgibson]

if you're at all familiar with Dr. Tabata's research, he's shown repeatedly that HIIT can improve the aerobic system without compromising the anaerobic system (i.e. strength), and even enhances it

well if u read the entire article and the questions that i have previously answered...which i assume u have...u'll realize that i've already answered ur questions. i'm not going to re type it out for every person that asks me the same questions over and over.

ur missing the entire point of the article. i used the title "anti-cardio diet theory" to get people's attention...which is obviously worked...i do believe in doing cardio precontest. i just believe in putting it off as long as possible....this is where i talked about the "sticking point"...i'm obviously not going to change everyones mind on this and u can do whatever u want for ur contest prep...i could really care less personally..but for people wanting to try something different that might even work better....they have the science and the science supports the theory.

keep in mind i didn't create this theory on my own. i created it with the help of 3 Doctors of physiology at my college...i gotta believe if it wouldn't work on a scientific level they would've been able to figure it out.

keep ur cardio in from 15 weeks out. maybe u'll be better than u would be otherwise..or maybe u stay a bit leaner in the offseason and not eat like shit so u don't have to do as much cardio...maybe if u start cardio in ur off season u'll actually come in weighing less than u did the year before!

[thesamewords]

I dont do cardio unless i have to. I dont mind a nice basketball game every now and then.

[esgibson]

I dont do cardio unless i have to. I dont mind a nice basketball game every now and then.

i like ur style brotha! do what works!

[illwill]

if you're at all familiar with Dr. Tabata's research, he's shown repeatedly that HIIT can improve the aerobic system without compromising the anaerobic system (i.e. strength), and even enhances it

My understand of Tabata's research is that it did, in fact, improve BOTH VO2 and anaerobic capacity, but they only made progress for 3 weeks on the VO2 before plateauing and 4 weeks for anaerobic capacity.

[bhman6]

well if u read the entire article and the questions that i have previously answered...which i assume u have...u'll realize that i've already answered ur questions. i'm not going to re type it out for every person that asks me the same questions over and over. !

I read the thread, again my "questions" were rhetorical




ur missing the entire point of the article. i used the title "anti-cardio diet theory" to get people's attention...which is obviously worked...i do believe in doing cardio precontest. i just believe in putting it off as long as possible....this is where i talked about the "sticking point"...i'm obviously not going to change everyones mind on this and u can do whatever u want for ur contest prep...i could really care less personally..but for people wanting to try something different that might even work better....they have the science and the science supports the theory.

I think this is a great thread and you've opened people's minds. I think its wise to include a counterargument to help people make unbiased and informed conclusions



keep in mind i didn't create this theory on my own. i created it with the help of 3 Doctors of physiology at my college...i gotta believe if it wouldn't work on a scientific level they would've been able to figure it out.


there are plenty of doctors who believe cardio is a necessity to getting lean

examining both sides of the coin is a smart move


keep ur cardio in from 15 weeks out. maybe u'll be better than u would be otherwise..or maybe u stay a bit leaner in the offseason and not eat like shit so u don't have to do as much cardio...maybe if u start cardio in ur off season u'll actually come in weighing less than u did the year before!

I hope the "u" in there is a general "u" and not pointed at me directly :)


again, good thread and it's nice to see people thinking about this stuff instead of just accepting one theory as the only way to do things.

[bhman6]

My understand of Tabata's research is that it did, in fact, improve BOTH VO2 and anaerobic capacity, but they only made progress for 3 weeks on the VO2 before plateauing and 4 weeks for anaerobic capacity.


they also exercises at max capacity in terms of frequency and intensity to reach that plateau quicker

while I wouldn't recommend following their protocol to a "t", it does make one think about the potential benefits of very high intense intervals

[esgibson]

I read the thread, again my "questions" were rhetorical





I think this is a great thread and you've opened people's minds. I think its wise to include a counterargument to help people make unbiased and informed conclusions


there are plenty of doctors who believe cardio is a necessity to getting lean

examining both sides of the coin is a smart move



I hope the "u" in there is a general "u" and not pointed at me directly :)


again, good thread and it's nice to see people thinking about this stuff instead of just accepting one theory as the only way to do things.

there is plenty of evidence for both sides of the argument...and to be completely honest..there's plenty of science to support both sides as well doctors

everyone can make their own decisions on what they want to do...someone should always do what works best of them but there's only one way of finding that out and that's by trying new things

and for record, the "u" in the post above was directed at u ;)

[fltallpaul]

i'm also kind of confused why in the post the other day u agreed with my theory and said that the title is just misleading. so u agreed the other day and now u don't?


The theory I agree with is using as little cardio as possible to get results. I have seen people 18 weeks out doing 2 hours of cardio. This doesn't leave much room for sticking points unless you live in a gym.

I have read Lyle's, Dr. Joe's, Layne's and others research and from that and personal experience I can tell you HIIT is more muscle sparing when done correctly. I also believe in using both methods during prep.

Last year I did two HIIT sessions and two LISS sessions a week all the way into my shows. This was one less day of cardio than I used the year before simply because my progress never stalled to a point where dropping calories a little didn't start fat loss again.

I am not trying to do anything other than offer this discussion my views which have given me proven results.

[esgibson]

The theory I agree with is using as little cardio as possible to get results. I have seen people 18 weeks out doing 2 hours of cardio. This doesn't leave much room for sticking points unless you live in a gym.

I have read Lyle's, Dr. Joe's, Layne's and others research and from that and personal experience I can tell you HIIT is more muscle sparing when done correctly. I also believe in using both methods during prep.

Last year I did two HIIT sessions and two LISS sessions a week all the way into my shows. This was one less day of cardio than I used the year before simply because my progress never stalled to a point where dropping calories a little didn't start fat loss again.

I am not trying to do anything other than offer this discussion my views which have given me proven results.

i like it! mainly the part about not doing a bunch of cardio haha i'm glad that u found what works best for u. maybe next year u try for even one more less day of cardio in the beginning and see where that takes u...maybe it'll work better...maybe it won't..there's only one way to find out.

sorry if i came off like a dick...i'm dieting for a show and there r some people on here that just piss me off with how retarded they r

i completely agree with u though. the main thing i'm tryin to stress is to go against popular belief that u have to do an ass-ton of cardio to get in good shape and have people experiment to see what works best for them. thanks for the post bro.

[bhman6]

and for record, the "u" in the post above was directed at u ;)

considering you don't know me I was wondering how you were able to form an opinion and direct it to me



sorry if i came off like a dick...i'm dieting for a show and there r some people on here that just piss me off with how retarded they r



so that explains it ;)

no worries bro, you brought some good points to the board, which has been much needed lately

[fltallpaul]

i like it! mainly the part about not doing a bunch of cardio haha i'm glad that u found what works best for u. maybe next year u try for even one more less day of cardio in the beginning and see where that takes u...maybe it'll work better...maybe it won't..there's only one way to find out.

sorry if i came off like a dick...i'm dieting for a show and there r some people on here that just piss me off with how retarded they r

i completely agree with u though. the main thing i'm tryin to stress is to go against popular belief that u have to do an ass-ton of cardio to get in good shape and have people experiment to see what works best for them. thanks for the post bro.

Its all good and I know where your coming from. Ideally no cardio would be best but only a few I have every heard of doing that are Jeff Rodriguez and Dexter Jackson...I am sure there are others but those guys have metabolisms that just constantly burn what they eat. I am sure thier issues are more about eating enough calories...Personally I like being in the middle a bit.

[illwill]

Last year I did two HIIT sessions and two LISS sessions a week all the way into my shows.

Fitallpaul, Care to share how you actually implemented the HIIT sessions you did? Stationary bike? Sprinting? 60 secs on/60 secs off? 45 secs on/15 secs off? and duration of session.

Bhman6, I'm curious to how you broke your HIIT down too. Shoot, anybody can chime in lol

[bhman6]

I've done it a few different ways


one of the easiest methods of tracking progress is to pick an interval setting at a low level and going to town, and over time increasing both speed and resistance

I've also done 15-20 sec. all out, 40-45 sec. low intense, as well as Tabatas done for 20 sec. all out followed by 10 sec. rest

as long a syou're consistent with your approach and strive for progress (in speed, decreased rest, resistance, etc.) then I don't think the minutia matters as much

[rockhard]

I've done it a few different ways


one of the easiest methods of tracking progress is to pick an interval setting at a low level and going to town, and over time increasing both speed and resistance

I've also done 15-20 sec. all out, 40-45 sec. low intense, as well as Tabatas done for 20 sec. all out followed by 10 sec. rest

as long a syou're consistent with your approach and strive for progress (in speed, decreased rest, resistance, etc.) then I don't think the minutia matters as much
Same with me, I mix it up with various intervals of work/rest. Some days longer (up to 1:00) all the way down to Tabata protocol (:10 on) with usually a rest interval double that of the work interval. I mix the HIIT days into my schedule along with LISS and have always had great results. I see and appreciate the argument for all types of cardio and don't believe one is necessarily better than the rest. Different energy systems use different fuels and I believe it is best to tap into all of them to make the most of raising metabolism and burning fat. Just like diet, their are many methods and theories out there that are effective in their own way. It boils down to finding what works for you and implementing it.

[fltallpaul]

Fitallpaul, Care to share how you actually implemented the HIIT sessions you did? Stationary bike? Sprinting? 60 secs on/60 secs off? 45 secs on/15 secs off? and duration of session.

Bhman6, I'm curious to how you broke your HIIT down too. Shoot, anybody can chime in lol

My HIIT cardio goes like this. I use the recumbent bike almost every time.

5 minutes steady warmup.

15 seconds all out sprint...literally as fast as I can go for 15 seconds, at level 12 I get the RPM's over 140 and into the 150's on good days. I then pedal at a normal pace for 45 seconds and then start over. After 4 or 5 I feel like I am going to die. This is High Intensity, you must go all out. I do ten sprints per session...the last few weeks I may up to 12.

WHen I read people saying the do 1 minute intervals of HIIT I cringe...you shouldn't be able to last that long unless your a world class runner or something.

Hope this helps.

[illwill]

Thanks for everyones input, I think it helps us all who are reading this thread.

My HIIT mirrors yours somewhat. I warm up with 15 of LISS, then I do the 45 seconds of low intensity/15 seconds balls out on the recumbent bike. 10-15 reps, followed by 5 mins of LISS to cool down.

Maybe I should bump up the level some..hmmm

[esgibson]

Thanks for everyones input, I think it helps us all who are reading this thread.

My HIIT mirrors yours somewhat. I warm up with 15 of LISS, then I do the 45 seconds of low intensity/15 seconds balls out on the recumbent bike. 10-15 reps, followed by 5 mins of LISS to cool down.

Maybe I should bump up the level some..hmmm

just keep in mind with anything u do with fitness or bodybuilding that u need to always strive to be better! if u always do what u always did then u'll always get what u've always got. kick it up if u can brotha!

[kratos47]

i understand that the bear bone of losing weight is simply reduced caloric intake. so it makes sense that simplying cutting out the the calories you would be trying to acomplish by doing cardio makes sence. i also know that post cardio your body is a much better system to burn calories so i see how thats very benificial. same old arguement different strokes for different fokes

[bhman6]

WHen I read people saying the do 1 minute intervals of HIIT I cringe...you shouldn't be able to last that long unless your a world class runner or something.

Hope this helps.



oh man that drives me nuts

they say "I'm doing intervals of 2 minutes run 2 minutes walk"

yeah...you go ahead while I kill myself doing 10-20 second sprints

[LANCE SPENCER]

so whats the perfect cal carb protein fat ratio,lets say for a 200lb male to avoid the crappy cardio??

[esgibson]

so whats the perfect cal carb protein fat ratio,lets say for a 200lb male to avoid the crappy cardio??

it's different for everybody man. the trick is learning ur metabolism. the sooner u do that...the better off u r. just play with ur calories in the offseason a little bit and see what works best for u. what works for u probably isn't going to work for the next guy thats 200lbs. that's y cookie cutter diets don't usually give the best results since they're only great for a few with similar metabolisms and body types.

[the_genetic_freak]

So, since a mixture of both LISS and HIIT is probably best (and I've seen how people are doing their HIIT and progressing through it), what kind of duration are we speaking about for LISS? And how low intensity are we talking about? Do we simply increase the time as we plateau, or is that manipulated via the changes in the HIIT cardio or diet? Note I'm not asking for a prescription, just what others have done that have gotten success using a mixture of both.

[esgibson]

So, since a mixture of both LISS and HIIT is probably best (and I've seen how people are doing their HIIT and progressing through it), what kind of duration are we speaking about for LISS? And how low intensity are we talking about? Do we simply increase the time as we plateau, or is that manipulated via the changes in the HIIT cardio or diet? Note I'm not asking for a prescription, just what others have done that have gotten success using a mixture of both.

again it's going to be different for everybody but generally when i start doing low intensity i keep my heart rate around 65% of the max and only around 20 min to start. i walk on an incline generally...the treadmil is infront of my tv in the living room...when u plateau SOMETHING has to change..as long as it results in more calories burned or less consumed it's probably going to be okay as long as it's nothing crazy...personally.. i start with low intensity then when i plateau i'll throw in some hiit stuff on my off days and assess it from there