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Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 09:00 PM
Tammy has asked this question and gotten a pretty one-sided "NO" answer elsewhere to:
"do you think the ifbb should .....
have in the contract...no pornographic videos, pics, session work etc? i ask because i think they would be concerned about the image the athletes portay as a rep for the ifbb."
__________________
Reference:

APPENDIX 1
to the
IFBB CONSTITUTION
IFBB CODE OF ETHICS
Introduction:
The IFBB Code of Ethics exist as a set of beliefs that have been written to serve as
guidelines for the way in which all Members, be they athletes, judges, officials,
administrators or others, should strive to conduct themselves as Members of the
IFBB family. National Federations and other Members join the IFBB of their own
free will and, in so doing, agree to abide by the IFBB Constitution and Rules of
which the Code of Ethics forms an integral part. Any Member who is found to
have contravened the Code of Ethics may be subject to disciplinary measures.
Athletes:
We, the athletes, realizing that our conduct reflects on the good name of the sport,
and realizing the responsibility thereby placed upon us, pledge ourselves:
1. to fulfill our responsibility to society, to other athletes, judges,
officials, and administrators of the IFBB.
2. to honour, dignify, and support the sport by competing in the best
condition and to the best of our ability, and by being in top shape when
giving an exhibition or a seminar.
3. to respect our opponents on equal terms in the spirit of friendly rivalry
and good sportsmanship.
4. to respect the IFBB Constitution and Rules as well as the rules of
competition and to observe them honestly in cooperation with other
competitors, judges, officials, administrators, and organizers.
5. to accept the decisions of the judges, officials and administrators in the
spirit of good sportsmanship without descending to selfish
recriminations, realizing that these decisions have been made honestly,
fairly, and objectively.
6. to assist the IFBB in the promotion of the sport by acting as a goodwill
ambassador of the sport, promoting the sport in a positive manner, and
protecting the good image and integrity of the sport and the IFBB.
7. to work for the IFBB, not against it, in promoting its values, morals
and ethics; to exercise our right of protest in a courteous, respectful
manner, following the proper chain of command; to refrain from
innuendo, malicious gossip and rumour-mongering; to refrain from
personal attacks against any other Member of the IFBB.
8. to continue striving for bodily perfection and correct moral principles.
9. to honour the special trust conferred upon us by our participation in,
and by our representation of, the IFBB and our country, at international
events, and to adhere to the standards of personal conduct expected of
us.
10. to recognize the value of the sport and to promote its future by serving
as an example to inspire other people to participate.
11. to cooperate with our officials and administrators in the development
of high standards, both moral and physical, for the sport and in the
progressive furtherance of the objects of the IFBB.
12. to oppose the use of banned substances and methods and to compete
drug-free.
13. to refrain from any conduct that may be considered prejudicial to the
IFBB;
14. to conduct ourselves at all times in a manner that reflects positively
upon the image of the sport and the IFBB.

Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 09:12 PM
I have mixed emotions about it as I like seeing the competitors naked and having sex sometimes, but don't know that such activity directly and so overtly associated with the IFBB doesn't diminish other opportunities for those competitors and other members of the IFBB.

As for the IFBB Constitution it clearly distances the organization from such activities as that and drugs. While some will say if they don't enforce one they shouldn't enforce the other I believe they are different issues. The market for bodybuilding is already sooooooo small that I reckon they are happy to merely have the few competitors show up that do and don't hassle them if they are screw fruit on camera or each other and shooting up or flaunt their gear as seen in some pros videos:hypno:

I do believe based on the constitution and memos I seem to recall being put out that essentially the IFBB is already within their rights to sanction competitors who do these things as they have been forewarned. Is that likely to happen? I don't see it. Yet, if some holy roller competitors banded together I'm sure they could make a stink. Likewise, some of the porn being distributed for instance on dvd via US Mail by well known competitors is clearly a federal crime that could bring into question the legal culpability of individuals in high places ie racketeering, which is something I believe should be cleaned up before something bad like that does happen. Ultimately, an athlete may choose to do what they wish, but their actions should not jeopardize the choices and opportunities of others or the IFBB as the representative organization of the lot.:)

Femphysiquefan
02-26-2010, 09:29 PM
Since it's the same discussion, I'll post what I said over there here:

As far as I'm concerned, what a competitor does outside of actual competition is in the end their own business. Those competitors who engage in the adult-oriented side of female muscle have the right to do so under the law if they so choose. They also work just as hard in their contest prep as any other competitor who ISN'T involved in that sort of thing, so why should they be penalized by the federation for doing something OUTSIDE of competition that the law allows them to do?? If one heads down that road it's just one long slippery slope, IMHO. Where does that then end?? For example, according to her Myspace page (assuming this in fact her and not an imposter) bodybuilder and powerlifter Anita Ramsey is a practitioner of Wicca (modern-day witchcraft). Since most people have a very negative view of witchcraft, does this mean that Anita shouldn't be allowed to compete in the NPC even though (1) she has the right to worship as she pleases under the law; and (2) when it comes to actual competition she trains and diets just as hard as those who DON'T worship as she does, if they worship at all?? We can debate (and have debated to great length, as of late) whether or not the existence of and involvement with the adult-oriented femuscle subculture harms or helps the image of FBB, but this debate has centered on those activities that go on OUTSIDE of actual competition. As far as whether or not being involved in that subculture should have a bearing on being allowed to compete in a federation I say no. One has nothing to do with the other. Some have argued that if the federations took the step of increasing compensation to the ladies then this behavior would cease, but I disagree. Even if the IFBB took that step it still wouldn't prevent some of the ladies from engaging in the adult industries anyway. And then, again, what right would the federation have to tell them what they could or couldn't do OUTSIDE of competition in their own lives?? The federations have the right to dictate what goes on DURING THEIR ACTUAL SHOWS, NOT what goes on in the individual competitor's lives outside of competition.

Curt James
02-26-2010, 09:40 PM
Likewise, some of the porn being distributed for instance on dvd via US Mail by well known competitors is clearly a federal crime that could bring into question the legal culpability of individuals in high places ie racketeering, which is something I believe should be cleaned up before something bad like that does happen.

Can you be more specific without names? Are you referring to a specific act?

Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 09:46 PM
Hey J,
Membership in organizations typically come with restrictions just as employment does. If one of the teachers at UF for instance was doing hardcore porn and wearing t-shirts with pictures of himself in some gay porn act hardly anyone would question his dismissal and possible incarceration.

Likewise, in the example of individual freedoms they are of course restricted to the limits of those boundaries where they impact others.

In property rights we are restricted what we can do on our property relative to our neighbors property rights and the interests of "the community." The IFBB is a community of sorts with a members that hopefully want greater opportunities for cash awards on stage. It isn't unreasonable for those who aren't in the porn business, but possibly doctors, lawyers, corporate executives, business owners, etc to question the activities of others as possibly being what in property law is called a nuisance even if done privately that causes offence, annoyance, trouble or injury to others in their organization.;)

The Big Sexy
02-26-2010, 09:50 PM
Since it's the same discussion, I'll post what I said over there here:

As far as I'm concerned, what a competitor does outside of actual competition is in the end their own business. Those competitors who engage in the adult-oriented side of female muscle have the right to do so under the law if they so choose. They also work just as hard in their contest prep as any other competitor who ISN'T involved in that sort of thing, so why should they be penalized by the federation for doing something OUTSIDE of competition that the law allows them to do?? If one heads down that road it's just one long slippery slope, IMHO. Where does that then end?? For example, according to her Myspace page (assuming this in fact her and not an imposter) bodybuilder and powerlifter Anita Ramsey is a practitioner of Wicca (modern-day witchcraft). Since most people have a very negative view of witchcraft, does this mean that Anita shouldn't be allowed to compete in the NPC even though (1) she has the right to worship as she pleases under the law; and (2) when it comes to actual competition she trains and diets just as hard as those who DON'T worship as she does, if they worship at all?? We can debate (and have debated to great length, as of late) whether or not the existence of and involvement with the adult-oriented femuscle subculture harms or helps the image of FBB, but this debate has centered on those activities that go on OUTSIDE of actual competition. As far as whether or not being involved in that subculture should have a bearing on being allowed to compete in a federation I say no. One has nothing to do with the other. Some have argued that if the federations took the step of increasing compensation to the ladies then this behavior would cease, but I disagree. Even if the IFBB took that step it still wouldn't prevent some of the ladies from engaging in the adult industries anyway. And then, again, what right would the federation have to tell them what they could or couldn't do OUTSIDE of competition in their own lives?? The federations have the right to dictate what goes on DURING THEIR ACTUAL SHOWS, NOT what goes on in the individual competitor's lives outside of competition.

I'm not so sure i agree with this. The NFL bans people from the sport for stuff they do outside of the competition... if they get a DUI, felony or even just an arrest or slap their wives - they can get a suspension, fine or worse handed down from the NFL - and it has NOTHING to do with football.

It has to do with the image of the athlete.

If the IFBB does not want that sort of image for an athlete - they can dictate what sort of "off competition" behavior they would like. Just like EVERY OTHER sports organization does.

Unless, you want to say that bodybuilding isn't a competition. That it isn't a sport. that it is merely entertainment ... then, I would say they can do whatever they want.

I for one, consider this a sport... and try to maintain a certain dignity when it comes to things I would expect reflect poorly on it (getting into fights, DUI, murder, G4P porn, etc.)

The Big Sexy
02-26-2010, 09:53 PM
I have mixed emotions about it as I like seeing the competitors naked and having sex sometimes, but don't know that such activity directly and so overtly associated with the IFBB doesn't diminish other opportunities for those competitors and other members of the IFBB.

As for the IFBB Constitution it clearly distances the organization from such activities as that and drugs. While some will say if they don't enforce one they shouldn't enforce the other I believe they are different issues. The market for bodybuilding is already sooooooo small that I reckon they are happy to merely have the few competitors show up that do and don't hassle them if they are screw fruit on camera or each other and shooting up or flaunt their gear as seen in some pros videos:hypno:

I do believe based on the constitution and memos I seem to recall being put out that essentially the IFBB is already within their rights to sanction competitors who do these things as they have been forewarned. Is that likely to happen? I don't see it. Yet, if some holy roller competitors banded together I'm sure they could make a stink. Likewise, some of the porn being distributed for instance on dvd via US Mail by well known competitors is clearly a federal crime that could bring into question the legal culpability of individuals in high places ie racketeering, which is something I believe should be cleaned up before something bad like that does happen. Ultimately, an athlete may choose to do what they wish, but their actions should not jeopardize the choices and opportunities of others or the IFBB as the representative organization of the lot.:)

My personal opinion is that it turns the sport into a joke. Yeah, I get that people have to make money - and that some people use this as a form of cash... just don't compete then.

G4P men, the women flexing on pay sites for schmoes, porn with the women/men in it - it is degrading and definitely puts the IFBB and NPC in a poor light.

Sorry - it just does.

I don't look down on these people at all... I don't judge them. But if you are asking if it puts the sport in bad light, then it does.

If you don't think it would be awkward to do this - then it might not.

"And this is Cami Smith (name made up) a 26 year old web cam performer and fem dom porn star... she fucks men with strap ons and poses nude on webcams for money! Let's here it for CAMI!!!"

Just doesn't sound right to announce that in an auditorium with kids.

Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 09:56 PM
Can you be more specific without names? Are you referring to a specific act?

There are numerous examples, but to generalize any adult photo or video material distributed by US Mail is subject to selective prosecution. Example Paul F. Little, aka, Max Hardcore. Sure there is lots of free porn out there, BUT at anytime the operators sending such content via US Mail and "online site operators" are subject to prosecution. :yep:

Femphysiquefan
02-26-2010, 09:59 PM
Hey J,
Membership in organizations typically come with restrictions just as employment does. If one of the teachers at UF for instance was doing hardcore porn and wearing t-shirts with pictures of himself in some gay porn act hardly anyone would question his dismissal and possible incarceration.

You ever heard of the ACLU, MPJ?? They'd be down on UF like a ton of bricks for doing that.


Likewise, in the example of individual freedoms they are of course restricted to the limits of those boundaries where they impact others.

In property rights we are restricted what we can do on our property relative to our neighbors property rights and the interests of "the community." The IFBB is a community of sorts with a members that hopefully want greater opportunities for cash awards on stage. It isn't unreasonable for those who aren't in the porn business, but possibly doctors, lawyers, corporate executives, business owners, etc to question the activities of others as possibly being what in property law is called a nuisance even if done privately that causes offence, annoyance, trouble or injury to others in their organization.;)So, based on what you are saying here, if you worked for an organization which frowned on the idea of photographing and/or filming events where scantily-clad (albeit muscular) women who were slathered in tanner and oil posed on stage for participants who paid money to see it, you would willingly step down without a fight if they decided to terminate YOUR employment for the reasons you specifiy above?? ;)

Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 10:04 PM
I agree Big Sexy. I'm know and luv a bunch of these folks male and female in the adult business, hell some of 'em are higher ups in the orgs were are talking about, lol. At the end of the day though I don't picture those engaged in these activities as good roll models or leaders no matter how much I love'm. Of course I'm not saying I'm in better. I love free porn:p


My personal opinion is that it turns the sport into a joke. Yeah, I get that people have to make money - and that some people use this as a form of cash... just don't compete then.

G4P men, the women flexing on pay sites for schmoes, porn with the women/men in it - it is degrading and definitely puts the IFBB and NPC in a poor light.

Sorry - it just does.

I don't look down on these people at all... I don't judge them. But if you are asking if it puts the sport in bad light, then it does.

If you don't think it would be awkward to do this - then it might not.

"And this is Cami Smith (name made up) a 26 year old web cam performer and fem dom porn star... she fucks men with strap ons and poses nude on webcams for money! Let's here it for CAMI!!!"

Just doesn't sound right to announce that in an auditorium with kids.

Carolyn Bryant
02-26-2010, 10:04 PM
Since it's the same discussion, I'll post what I said over there here:

As far as I'm concerned, what a competitor does outside of actual competition is in the end their own business. Those competitors who engage in the adult-oriented side of female muscle have the right to do so under the law if they so choose. They also work just as hard in their contest prep as any other competitor who ISN'T involved in that sort of thing, so why should they be penalized by the federation for doing something OUTSIDE of competition that the law allows them to do?? If one heads down that road it's just one long slippery slope, IMHO. Where does that then end?? For example, according to her Myspace page (assuming this in fact her and not an imposter) bodybuilder and powerlifter Anita Ramsey is a practitioner of Wicca (modern-day witchcraft). Since most people have a very negative view of witchcraft, does this mean that Anita shouldn't be allowed to compete in the NPC even though (1) she has the right to worship as she pleases under the law; and (2) when it comes to actual competition she trains and diets just as hard as those who DON'T worship as she does, if they worship at all?? We can debate (and have debated to great length, as of late) whether or not the existence of and involvement with the adult-oriented femuscle subculture harms or helps the image of FBB, but this debate has centered on those activities that go on OUTSIDE of actual competition. As far as whether or not being involved in that subculture should have a bearing on being allowed to compete in a federation I say no. One has nothing to do with the other. Some have argued that if the federations took the step of increasing compensation to the ladies then this behavior would cease, but I disagree. Even if the IFBB took that step it still wouldn't prevent some of the ladies from engaging in the adult industries anyway. And then, again, what right would the federation have to tell them what they could or couldn't do OUTSIDE of competition in their own lives?? The federations have the right to dictate what goes on DURING THEIR ACTUAL SHOWS, NOT what goes on in the individual competitor's lives outside of competition.


That ain't what they told Tiger. LOL

The Big Sexy
02-26-2010, 10:10 PM
You ever heard of the ACLU, MPJ?? They'd be down on UF like a ton of bricks for doing that.

So, based on what you are saying here, if you worked for an organization which frowned on the idea of photographing and/or filming events where scantily-clad (albeit muscular) women who were slathered in tanner and oil posed on stage for participants who paid money to see it, you would willingly step down without a fight if they decided to terminate YOUR employment for the reasons you specifiy above?? ;)

Missing the point bro. ZOOM.

Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 10:15 PM
ACLU is a lobbying organization and a rather weak one if you ask me. My time as a tree-hugging Sierra Club legislative, conservation & toxic issues chairman led me to a lot of understanding about the limits of your freedoms relative to protection of mine.

You ever heard of the ACLU, MPJ?? They'd be down on UF like a ton of bricks for doing that.

I usually consider the rules, responsibilities and code of ethics of a company before I take a position. And I'm not sue-happy although I know and have worked with a lot of that miserable ilk. They usually fail as again they didn't take notice of the rules, responsibilities, and stated code of ethics of the company they hired on with and typically have a diluted sense of personal freedom.


So, based on what you are saying here, if you worked for an organization which frowned on the idea of photographing and/or filming events where scantily-clad (albeit muscular) women who were slathered in tanner and oil posed on stage for participants who paid money to see it, you would willingly step down without a fight if they decided to terminate YOUR employment for the reasons you specifiy above?? ;)

Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 10:18 PM
Yea, his exercise of personal freedom has cost him plenty;)

That ain't what they told Tiger. LOL

Femphysiquefan
02-26-2010, 10:24 PM
I'm not so sure i agree with this. The NFL bans people from the sport for stuff they do outside of the competition... if they get a DUI, felony or even just an arrest or slap their wives - they can get a suspension, fine or worse handed down from the NFL - and it has NOTHING to do with football.

You're right in that people who engage in the behavior you state above should be penalized, but bear in mind that all of those behaviors are ILLEGAL under US law. THAT'S why they're punished. Adult-oriented activities, while immoral to some, are nevertheless legal. And since the law and the Constitution both trump whatever rules a professional organization would happen to set, those activities are permissible for competitors to engage in. Also, have you ever heard of "groupies?" "Groupies" are to the pro football community what "schmoes" are to the bodybuilding community. When applied to professional sports, this term usually refers to ladies who hang around at after-parties following games for the purpose of having sex with the players. And from what I can tell, "groupie" behavior has been reported in the NFL, the NBA, MLB, NHL and virtually every other professional sports organization in the WORLD. None of that behavior has anything to do with sports, either, yet the players are nonetheless engaging in it. And because the law allows for it, the sports organizations legally can't prevent it from happening.


If the IFBB does not want that sort of image for an athlete - they can dictate what sort of "off competition" behavior they would like. Just like EVERY OTHER sports organization does.They can say what they would LIKE to see, and encourage and persuade competitors in their organization to avoid certain behavior, but they CANNOT mandate that they not engage in it if the law allows them to do it.


Unless, you want to say that bodybuilding isn't a competition. That it isn't a sport. that it is merely entertainment ... then, I would say they can do whatever they want.

I for one, consider this a sport... and try to maintain a certain dignity when it comes to things I would expect reflect poorly on it (getting into fights, DUI, murder, G4P porn, etc.)And I very much respect and admire that. So you know, I don't agree with the adult-oriented side of femuscle either, as several other people who have engaged in debates such as this can attest. As a former "schmoe" I would very much like to see the whole muscle porn industry become a shadow of what it currently is. However, I'm not prepared to trample on another person's individual freedoms in order to bring that about.

Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 10:28 PM
Where do you find in the U.S. Constitution that porn is legal? ;)
Selective enforcement against the crime occurs rather like traffic law enforcement against running stop lights, but it is not legal:no:

Adult-oriented activities, while immoral to some, are nevertheless legal. And since the law and the Constitution both trump whatever rules a professional organization would happen to set, those activities are permissible for competitors to engage in.

Curt James
02-26-2010, 10:30 PM
I'm not so sure i agree with this. The NFL bans people from the sport for stuff they do outside of the competition... if they get a DUI, felony or even just an arrest or (snip)

People are arrested for DUI offenses and for felonies, obviously, but the activities MPJ mentioned - pornographic videos, pics, session work - are not illegal.

Prostitution is illegal in most of the U.S., however distributors of adult films and the actors who appear in those films enjoy the protection of the First Amendment. Or do I have that wrong?


try to maintain a certain dignity when it comes to things I would expect reflect poorly on it (getting into fights, DUI, murder, G4P porn, etc.)

Again, DUI is illegal. Likewise street fights.

And are you equating murder and "G4P"? :confused:


There are numerous examples, but to generalize any adult photo or video material distributed by US Mail is subject to selective prosecution. Example Paul F. Little, aka, Max Hardcore. Sure there is lots of free porn out there, BUT at anytime the operators sending such content via US Mail and "online site operators" are subject to prosecution. :yep:

Interesting. Thanks, MPJ.


That ain't what they told Tiger. LOL

Some of his sponsors let Tiger go, but did the PGA prohibit him from playing golf? I saw his wife on the cover of People or something recently, but haven't been following the story.

The Big Sexy
02-26-2010, 10:30 PM
Gambling on sports events (not related to the sport you are competing against) is not illegal. Yet, several people have been banned for life because of it.

NFL stars are required, as well, to act with a degree of decorum outside of the sport as well. They are now required to dress appropriately in public and cannot associate with groups who are known criminals (aka gangs). None of these activities are illegal.

The NBA informed Allen Iverson several years back that he could not release his controversial rap album that made disparaging remarks about homosexuals - it was completely legal - however, it would have cast a bad image on the NBA. He was threatened with expulsion from the league.

I would say if a bodybuilding organization didn't want it's women performing in porn or webcam for $$$ - It would be a very legal and within their rights to do so. Not the best example for kids who want to do the sport, now is it?

The Big Sexy
02-26-2010, 10:33 PM
And yes, an organization can prohibit you from engaging in acts that are otherwise legal.

Again, you do not have a right to porn... it is even controlled and sanctioned in some areas. It is illegal in other areas. It varies, and isn't uniform legal and a guaranteed right. Check your constitutional case law on this if you don't want to take my word for it.

The Big Sexy
02-26-2010, 10:33 PM
People are arrested for DUI offenses and for felonies, obviously, but the activities MPJ mentioned - pornographic videos, pics, session work - are not illegal.

Prostitution is illegal in most of the U.S., however distributors of adult films and the actors who appear in those films enjoy the protection of the First Amendment. Or do I have that wrong?



Again, DUI is illegal. Likewise street fights.

And are you equating murder and "G4P"? :confused:



Interesting. Thanks, MPJ.



Some of his sponsors let Tiger go, but did the PGA prohibit him from playing golf? I saw his wife on the cover of People or something recently, but haven't been following the story.

Jumping the gun again Curt, I answered this in my next post.

Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 10:34 PM
It is a nuisance with economic as well as legal implications for the other members of the organization. One of my IFBB Pro athlete lady clients asked me today to soften the tone of her website as she is inquiring as to other employment and the person interviewing her looked funny at her when she noted she was an IFBB Pro Bodybuilder. He didn't ask to rub her down with oil or for a schmoey happy ending, but she has an economic interest in protecting her image against what is promulgated by others into the general perception of what IFBB Pro Bodybuilders commonly do.:yep:


So you know, I don't agree with the adult-oriented side of femuscle either, as several other people who have engaged in debates such as this can attest. As a former "schmoe" I would very much like to see the whole muscle porn industry become a shadow of what it currently is. However, I'm not prepared to trample on another person's individual freedoms in order to bring that about.

Curt James
02-26-2010, 10:35 PM
Jumping the gun again Curt

I don't believe I did. ;)


I answered this in my next post.

So you're not equating murder and "G4P"?

RDFinders
02-26-2010, 10:36 PM
I agree with Big Sexy. The porn side of the business gives this industry a very bad name. The thread that was on this site a few days ago showing a video of Colette Guimand (i think i spelled it right) is precisely why females bbers will garner no respect. i watched the video and cried for the woman. my sisters in bbing can't make a descent living until they turn themselves into freaks for someone's viewing pleasure. on the same site, i saw diana (can't spell her last name, but she is from jamacia) and dating kai green. also on the site was denise masino masterbating herself with a tight leotard on. come on! how does this further women or the sport of bbing. it says, if you want to make it, you have to turn yourself out into to something society would be totally against and men who are really gay, but get to feel safe b/c they are "with a woman" will pay to see.

dang it i wish i could find the thread with colette's video attached to it. it is a sad day on this earth when i saw a woman jacking her clitoris like a man jerks off. but she made 100K according to debbie bramwell b/c of all the porn stuff on her site.

RDFinders
02-26-2010, 10:39 PM
I would say if a bodybuilding organization didn't want it's women performing in porn or webcam for $$$ - It would be a very legal and within their rights to do so. Not the best example for kids who want to do the sport, now is it?
and i would say people in the sport are involved in making sure the women of this sport keep this industry going and get involved in porn. taking photos in tight clothes, then topless, then nude with a sheet, then full nude. hell, it is going to lead to being on film, then having sex with someone on film to make a buck. i personally don't think the ifbb will stop it b/c they profit from it.

Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 10:40 PM
No Curt, pornographic videos, pics and session work which is prostitution as they typically end with a hand job or other forms of intercourse are not legal. Increasingly the schmo-site operators have moved away from the host hotels by design and not solely for the sake of R&R at a mansion, but to distance some of their unsavory work, which includes breaking newbie sessions workers in away from official federation activities.
AUDIO LINK (http://media.libsyn.com/media/pijoehawley/schmoempire09.mp3) with VAS a schmoe event organizer

People are arrested for DUI offenses and for felonies, obviously, but the activities MPJ mentioned - pornographic videos, pics, session work - are not illegal.
Prostitution is illegal in most of the U.S., however distributors of adult films and the actors who appear in those films enjoy the protection of the First Amendment. Or do I have that wrong?

Curt James
02-26-2010, 10:43 PM
It is a nuisance with economic as well as legal implications for the other members of the organization. One of my IFBB Pro athlete lady clients asked me today to soften the tone of her website as she is inquiring as to other employment and the person interviewing her looked funny at her when she noted she was an IFBB Pro Bodybuilder. He didn't ask to rub her down with oil or for a schmoey happy ending, but she has an economic interest in protecting her image against what is promulgated by others into the general perception of what IFBB Pro Bodybuilders commonly do.:yep:

Lisa Aukland's site makes the clear announcement:

*Please note: I am a healthcare professional. I DO NOT participate in muscleworshiping, wrestling, private posing sessions or anything of the sort. Please do not make these requests as they will be ignored.

Actually, the font on her site is garbage for readability, but her words allow for no equivocation.


I agree with Big Sexy. The porn side of the business gives this industry a very bad name. The thread that was on this site a few days ago showing a video of Colette Guimand (i think i spelled it right) is precisely why females bbers will garner no respect. i watched the video and cried for the woman. my sisters in bbing can't make a descent living until they turn themselves into freaks for someone's viewing pleasure. on the same site, i saw diana (can't spell her last name, but she is from jamacia) and dating kai green. also on the site was denise masino masterbating herself with a tight leotard on. come on! how does this further women or the sport of bbing. it says, if you want to make it, you have to turn yourself out into to something society would be totally against and men who are really gay, but get to feel safe b/c they are "with a woman" will pay to see.

dang it i wish i could find the thread with colette's video attached to it. it is a sad day on this earth when i saw a woman jacking her clitoris like a man jerks off. but she made 100K according to debbie bramwell b/c of all the porn stuff on her site.

I'm not disputing your opinion whatsoever, however I really would love to read Tazzie Colomb's take on this subject.

RDFinders
02-26-2010, 10:46 PM
I'm not disputing your opinion whatsoever, however I really would love to read Tazzie Colomb's take on this subject.
what does tazzie have to do with it? does she engage in the same thing as colette? i know some of the guys here on this site are very turned on by enlarged clits, but colette is a transgender woman waiting for the operation. she has enough skin now for a penile enlargement and call herself cyle.

Curt James
02-26-2010, 10:53 PM
No Curt, pornographic videos, pics and session work which is prostitution as they typically end with a hand job or other forms of intercourse are not legal. Increasingly the schmo-site operators have moved away from the host hotels by design and not solely for the sake of R&R at a mansion, but to distance some of their unsavory work, which includes breaking newbie sessions workers in away from official federation activities.
AUDIO LINK (http://media.libsyn.com/media/pijoehawley/schmoempire09.mp3) with VAS a schmoe event organizer

I'm listening to the mp3 now. Again, thanks for that radio link.

But "typically"? Color me naive, MPJ.

So you're saying that videos, pics, and wrestling are gateway acts which lead to illegal activity?

I'd prefer that female bodybuilders were on my box of Wheaties versus off performing sex acts for pay, however how do you propose policing such behavior?

Femphysiquefan
02-26-2010, 11:04 PM
I'm listening to the mp3 now. Again, thanks for that radio link.

But "typically"? Color me naive, MPJ.

So you're saying that videos, pics, and wrestling are gateway acts which lead to illegal activity?

I'd prefer that female bodybuilders were on my box of Wheaties versus off performing sex acts for pay, however how do you propose policing such behavior?

My question exactly. And it has to be EFFECTIVE policing that takes into consideration personal freedom, as far as I'm concerned.

Curt James
02-26-2010, 11:05 PM
what does tazzie have to do with it?

I didn't mention Guimond.

What I'm interested in is Tazzie's response to the first post in this thread.

"do you think the ifbb should .....
have in the contract...no pornographic videos, pics, session work etc?"

I recall a video or radio clip where someone stated that Tazzie was probably going to make a lot of money during the weekend at one of the shows.

My assumption that it was all photos, wrestling, lifting, and generally PG-13 rated activities.

Femphysiquefan
02-26-2010, 11:09 PM
I didn't mention Guimond.

What I'm interested in is Tazzie's response to the first post in this thread.

"do you think the ifbb should .....
have in the contract...no pornographic videos, pics, session work etc?"

I recall a video or radio clip where someone stated that Tazzie was probably going to make a lot of money during the weekend at one of the shows.

My assumption that it was all photos, wrestling, lifting, and generally PG-13 rated activities.

Don't know if the last statement is intended to be tongue-in-cheek or not, but if it isn't I do know that Tazzie engages in session work. I had a fairly long discussion with her about this when she guest posed at the NPC Continental USA show last year.

Curt James
02-26-2010, 11:19 PM
^No, it wasn't tongue-in-cheek at all. I'm clearly uninformed re session work. I've seen ads of muscular women wrestling men, scissoring their heads, etc., but didn't realize sex was involved. Honestly. In fact, I'm almost certain I read or heard at least one FBBer interviewed stating they drew the line at certain acts.

Femphysiquefan
02-26-2010, 11:27 PM
^No, it wasn't tongue-in-cheek at all. I'm clearly uninformed re session work. I've seen ads of muscular women wrestling men, scissoring their heads, etc., but didn't realize sex was involved. Honestly. In fact, I'm almost certain I read or heard at least one FBBer interviewed stating they drew the line at certain acts.

I'm not for sure whether or not she personally offers sex to clients. I don't think SHE does, but from some conversations I've had there are some out there who are "full-service" in that regard. I think most do draw the line at sex, but I could be wrong.

Musclepapa John
02-26-2010, 11:35 PM
Hey Curt,
Vas will get to the part describing the Happy Ending's and other forms of prostitution in the sessions. He works with several of the most well known schmoe site operators. We hooked that interview up when we were more friendly. No I'm not saying they are gateway/slippery slopes at all. However, porn isn't legal in the first place. Wrestle all you want, but hand jobs, oral sex and other forms of intercourse for pay is illegal for the most part in the U.S. Sessions work is a pseudonym for prostitution.

As for policing it I'm not saying it should be one way or the other. I'm merely stating the facts and what I believe to be a provocative truth that is seldom voiced in these circles. Call me a community reporter and provocateur. :p


I'm listening to the mp3 now. Again, thanks for that radio link.

But "typically"? Color me naive, MPJ.

So you're saying that videos, pics, and wrestling are gateway acts which lead to illegal activity?

I'd prefer that female bodybuilders were on my box of Wheaties versus off performing sex acts for pay, however how do you propose policing such behavior?

cat
02-26-2010, 11:46 PM
Private non-governmentally funded organizations can dictate whatever terms they want for their membership, which membership is voluntary. Therefore, anyone who becomes a member of such an organization therefore agrees to whatever rules mandated by the organization. The only exception is that all private organizations cannot discriminate based upon race, gender, age, religion, or sexual orientation, as these are considered "protected classes". Other than these limited exceptions, if you are a private organization you make the rules. Glad to be using the law school education on the board..lol

Ibarramedia
02-26-2010, 11:47 PM
^No, it wasn't tongue-in-cheek at all. I'm clearly uninformed re session work. I've seen ads of muscular women wrestling men, scissoring their heads, etc., but didn't realize sex was involved. Honestly. In fact, I'm almost certain I read or heard at least one FBBer interviewed stating they drew the line at certain acts.

*groan* I just have to see this topic again. This was posted elsewhere and a good discussion soon followed. Reading this version just makes me feel drained.

Regarding sessions, Sex is not part of session activity. Now, i'm not saying it does not happen but the norm is that it is not part of it.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 12:01 AM
Private non-governmentally funded organizations can dictate whatever terms they want for their membership, which membership is voluntary. Therefore, anyone who becomes a member of such an organization therefore agrees to whatever rules mandated by the organization. The only exception is that all private organizations cannot discriminate based upon race, gender, age, religion, or sexual orientation, as these are considered "protected classes". Other than these limited exceptions, if you are a private organization you make the rules. Glad to be using the law school education on the board..lol

Thanks for the legalese Cat:)

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 12:12 AM
From the recording above, “Most sessions end with a happy ending. I don’t know if you know what that is” Vas said. “Very few don’t have some sexual aspect to the session.”

Your claim that "sex is not part of session activity" is pure bullshit.:p



Regarding sessions, Sex is not part of session activity. Now, i'm not saying it does not happen but the norm is that it is not part of it.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 01:16 AM
From the recording above, “Most sessions end with a happy ending. I don’t know if you know what that is” Vas said. “Very few don’t have some sexual aspect to the session.”

Your claim that "sex is not part of session activity" is pure bullshit.:p


I'm not going to argue with you about this but the industry people who are familiar with this straightened you out last year. Whether you believe them or not is your business. But your insinutation that sessions= prostitution is way off base. **shakes head in disgust**

Sledge
02-27-2010, 01:35 AM
It would have to apply to mens bodybuilding too. And the gay community has a long and deep relationship with mens bodybuilding dating back decades I can't see any rule stopping that happening.

The Big Sexy
02-27-2010, 03:50 AM
Private non-governmentally funded organizations can dictate whatever terms they want for their membership, which membership is voluntary. Therefore, anyone who becomes a member of such an organization therefore agrees to whatever rules mandated by the organization. The only exception is that all private organizations cannot discriminate based upon race, gender, age, religion, or sexual orientation, as these are considered "protected classes". Other than these limited exceptions, if you are a private organization you make the rules. Glad to be using the law school education on the board..lol

Bam. Right here. Thread closed... no more debate.

Femphysiquefan
02-27-2010, 05:44 AM
Bam. Right here. Thread closed... no more debate.

Don't think so. From Cat's post:


Private non-governmentally funded organizations can dictate whatever terms they want for their membership, which membership is voluntary. Therefore, anyone who becomes a member of such an organization therefore agrees to whatever rules mandated by the organization. The only exception is that all private organizations cannot discriminate based upon race, gender, age, religion, or sexual orientation, as these are considered "protected classes". Other than these limited exceptions, if you are a private organization you make the rules. Glad to be using the law school education on the board..lol Yesterday 11:35 PMLet's assume for a moment that the IFBB meets the above definition of a private organization (even though I think that is debatable). From the IFBB Code of Ethics in the 1st post of this thread:


National Federations and other Members join the IFBB of their own free will and, in so doing, agree to abide by the IFBB Constitution and Rules of which the Code of Ethics forms an integral part. Any Member who is found to have contravened the Code of Ethics may be subject to disciplinary measures.#12 in the code:


to oppose the use of banned substances and methods and to compete drug-free.Based upon the above, I conclude that any and all IFBB athletes, men and women alike, pro and amateur alike, who desire to place restrictions on athletes engaging in adult-oriented activities but then flagrantly disregard the above restriction in the Code of Ethics are guilty of hypocrisy, plain and simple. And we ALL know what would happen if #12 was actually and rigorously enforced in the IFBB. If you're going to do this, as per the logic of YOUR argument you better be prepared to go ALL the way and abide by ALL the rules, not just the ones you like. ANYTHING short of that is hypocrisy. Just sayin'.......

tammyp
02-27-2010, 06:32 AM
well i wake up and look at what i find:)

i would like to hear from some IFBB pros on this. i think saying wbbing is under funded, we gotta make money to support competing is well, SHIT. have a legit job, save and sacrifice. i havent had a real vacation in years due to contest expenses. porn cheapens us, period.

Femphysiquefan
02-27-2010, 06:50 AM
well i wake up and look at what i find:)

i would like to hear from some IFBB pros on this. i think saying wbbing is under funded, we gotta make money to support competing is well, SHIT. have a legit job, save and sacrifice. i havent had a real vacation in years due to contest expenses. porn cheapens us, period.

You're exactly right, Tammy. I think the existence of the adult-oriented side of femuscle DOES help put FBB in a bad light. And I think that there are those FBBs out there who are using this victim mentality as a crutch, because they aren't willing to make the sacrifices that will be necessary in order to leave that subculture. But if a restriction on such activities is actually made part of the rules of the IFBB, I don't see how it could be called anything but hypocritical, since OTHER existing restrictions such as those concerning banned substances are so flagrantly disregarded.

BTW, see you in Columbus at the Species booth!!! :)

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 09:07 AM
"Disgust is an emotion that is typically associated with things that are regarded as unclean, inedible, infectious, or otherwise offensive," according to wikipedia. So are you disgusted by noting when sex for hire occurs in sessions work that it is in fact prostitution?

Many are likewise disgusted with the moral turpitude of athletes that reflects poorly on the rest. And by definition moral turpitude has legal ramifications whether it be in public or private life.

From Wikipedia: Moral turpitude is a legal concept in the United States that refers to "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty or good morals."[/URL] The concept of moral turpitude escapes precise definition but has been described as an "act of baseness, vileness or depravity in the private and social duties which a man owes to his fellowmen, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between man and man." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude#cite_note-0) Until recent times, a man engaged in homosexual behavior was considered engaging 'criminal behavior involving moral turpitude'. The classification of a crime or other conduct as constituting moral turpitude has significance in several areas of law. First, prior conviction of a crime of moral turpitude (or in some jurisdictions, moral turpitude conduct, even without a conviction) is considered to have a bearing on the honesty of a witness and may be used for purposes of witness impeachment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude#cite_note-2) Second, moral turpitude offenses may be grounds to deny or revoke a professional license such as a teaching credential, license to practice law, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude#cite_note-4) or other licensed profession. Third, it is of great importance for immigration purposes, as only those offenses which are defined as involving moral turpitude are considered bars to immigration into the U.S. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude#cite_note-6"]



I'm not going to argue with you about this but the industry people who are familiar with this straightened you out last year. Whether you believe them or not is your business. But your insinutation that sessions= prostitution is way off base. **shakes head in disgust**

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 09:14 AM
One has nothing to do with enforcement or discussion of the other. Your insinuation that IFBB athletes should all be drug tested is a poor defense for the sex trade openly displayed and promoted in evidence on websites in photo, video, web cam and yes the halls of host hotels by sessions workers.

If you wish to claim that the IFBB should do mandatory drug testing of all member athletes versus "SELF REGULATION" that would be another matter. However, those athletes that openly and flagrantly boast of their illegal activities such as drug use should indeed be sanctioned by the organization as provided for within the terms of their Constitution. Such activities are illegal very much like prostitution, which the IFBB has to protect itself and its members in good standing against. ;)



#12 in the code:
Based upon the above, I conclude that any and all IFBB athletes, men and women alike, pro and amateur alike, who desire to place restrictions on athletes engaging in adult-oriented activities but then flagrantly disregard the above restriction in the Code of Ethics are guilty of hypocrisy, plain and simple. And we ALL know what would happen if #12 was actually and rigorously enforced in the IFBB. If you're going to do this, as per the logic of YOUR argument you better be prepared to go ALL the way and abide by ALL the rules, not just the ones you like. ANYTHING short of that is hypocrisy. Just sayin'.......

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 09:29 AM
I likewise perceive as "flagrant" the use of performance enhancing drugs in the NFL, NBA, Baseball and other professional sports, but for the benefit of those sports athletes, their sport and sponsors the FANS don't run around screaming it from the mountains. Most pro bodybuilders don't brag about it either unless of course they don't mind being the target of stings and undercover investigations.
Jeremy you are setting up a fallacy to defend your support for the prostituting of female athletes and degradation of the other ladies image based on innuendo. I can provide far more evidence as to the pornographic activities of IFBB athletes than I can provide evidence of drug use. Maybe you have a bunch of empty viles dug out of a garbage can? The pictures and videos are readily available at my fingertips here on the computer:yep:


But if a restriction on such activities is actually made part of the rules of the IFBB, I don't see how it could be called anything but hypocritical, since OTHER existing restrictions such as those concerning banned substances are so flagrantly disregarded.

RDFinders
02-27-2010, 10:09 AM
I didn't mention Guimond.

What I'm interested in is Tazzie's response to the first post in this thread.

"do you think the ifbb should .....
have in the contract...no pornographic videos, pics, session work etc?"

I recall a video or radio clip where someone stated that Tazzie was probably going to make a lot of money during the weekend at one of the shows.

My assumption that it was all photos, wrestling, lifting, and generally PG-13 rated activities.
i wasn't sure what you were asking curt. now i know. i brought up guimand as she embodies along with the other names i dropped, what female bbers are doing to make top dollars. i know a very pop female bber, and i sent her the links. she was totally disguisted by what some of her sisters are doing out here. when she got into the game, she was happy when she made 40K during a tour doing pics, wrestling, lifting, and other PG-13 rated activities. that was a long time ago and now, the requests she receives are her exposing her genitals for someone's viewing pleasure.

denise masino is very popular on this site and in search engines for what she provides on her site. melissa, can't recall her last name is popular as well. this site has a thread on enlarged clit pics and other R to X-XXX rated materials. let's not pretend that if a few women and men for the G4P didn't do, the sport wouldn't have this shadow on its image. once a few got out there then others followed suit for an almightly dollar. sad to think that they felt those were the only choices they had in order to make big dollars. somep people will follow the money no matter how it compromises their's and the image of others who participate in the sport.

Toniann
02-27-2010, 10:19 AM
Most women are expected to do some sort of nudity. How many times have I heard some famous female singer, actress or athlete has been asked to pose nude for some magazine or movie. It is sad cause no matter how much money and fame a woman has she will be asked to do something nude.
But I don't call nudity porn and a lot of people can't differentiate between the two. I was always under the impression that porn required you to actually have sex or at least be doing something sexual.
Some girl posing or flexing nude is not porn, if anything it is art.

tiramisu
02-27-2010, 10:22 AM
I think the IFBB is long overdue for a clean up. I don't have anything particular against porn, but it has a negative impact on the image of the sport of bodybuilding when they are mixed together as is currently happening.

I'd also love to see the IFBB enforce it's commitment to WADA.

... and as long as we are shooting for things that are never going to happen I would like peace on earth and for santa to bring me a vintage shelby cobra.

RDFinders
02-27-2010, 10:36 AM
Most women are expected to do some sort of nudity. How many times have I heard some famous female singer, actress or athlete has been asked to pose nude for some magazine or movie. It is sad cause no matter how much money and fame a woman has she will be asked to do something nude.
But I don't call nudity porn and a lot of people can't differentiate between the two. I was always under the impression that porn required you to actually have sex or at least be doing something sexual.
Some girl posing or flexing nude is not porn, if anything it is art.
it is sad that in the day and time after the feminist movement, women are still seen as sexual objects. nudity may be art, but some people's standards, but it opens the gateway for more, unfortunately.


I think the IFBB is long overdue for a clean up. I don't have anything particular against porn, but it has a negative impact on the image of the sport of bodybuilding when they are mixed together as is currently happening.

I'd also love to see the IFBB enforce it's commitment to WADA.

... and as long as we are shooting for things that are never going to happen I would like peace on earth and for santa to bring me a vintage shelby cobra.
what is the WADA? i hope you get that cobra b/c i have a list too for santa.:)

Tre
02-27-2010, 12:05 PM
I've only read the first 16 posts in this thread, but have already seen plenty of ignorance.

Do you know honestly think anyone outside of bodybuilding gives a shit about the IFBB?

Hell, survey 10 people at random and ask how many even know what the IFBB is and you'll have all the information you need. Even in this era of the steroid witch hunt, no one who isn't into the scene knows what the IFBB is.

It's one thing to say 'I don't like certain activities', but suggesting it's because you're trying to cater to an audience that you'll *never* have is flat-out laughable.

That said, thanks for the morning chuckle.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 12:07 PM
I agree with your definition of porn:)


Most women are expected to do some sort of nudity. How many times have I heard some famous female singer, actress or athlete has been asked to pose nude for some magazine or movie. It is sad cause no matter how much money and fame a woman has she will be asked to do something nude.
But I don't call nudity porn and a lot of people can't differentiate between the two. I was always under the impression that porn required you to actually have sex or at least be doing something sexual.
Some girl posing or flexing nude is not porn, if anything it is art.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 12:14 PM
lol, truth :p
Self-regulation and distinction is the best policy. For too long the vast majority of athletes that don't participate in these activities have had their voices minimized by the minority who do and their industry supporters. The IFBB does not promote the position that female or male athletes in its organization should do porn or abuse drugs. It's policies state just the opposite. Those who do so and their supporters in the industry promulgate the image that it is appropriate, beneficial and acceptable, which it is not nor should it be.:)


I think the IFBB is long overdue for a clean up. I don't have anything particular against porn, but it has a negative impact on the image of the sport of bodybuilding when they are mixed together as is currently happening.

I'd also love to see the IFBB enforce it's commitment to WADA.

... and as long as we are shooting for things that are never going to happen I would like peace on earth and for santa to bring me a vintage shelby cobra.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 12:49 PM
"Disgust is an emotion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion) that is typically associated with things that are regarded as unclean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unclean), inedible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedible), infectious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious), or otherwise offensive," according to wikipedia. So are you disgusted by noting when sex for hire occurs in sessions work that it is in fact prostitution?

Many are likewise disgusted with the moral turpitude of athletes that reflects poorly on the rest. And by definition moral turpitude has legal ramifications whether it be in public or private life.

From Wikipedia: Moral turpitude is a legal concept in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) that refers to "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty or good morals." The concept of moral turpitude escapes precise definition but has been described as an "act of baseness, vileness or depravity in the private and social duties which a man owes to his fellowmen, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between man and man." Until recent times, a man engaged in homosexual behavior was considered engaging 'criminal behavior involving moral turpitude'. The classification of a crime or other conduct as constituting moral turpitude has significance in several areas of law. First, prior conviction of a crime of moral turpitude (or in some jurisdictions, moral turpitude conduct, even without a conviction) is considered to have a bearing on the honesty of a witness and may be used for purposes of witness impeachment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_impeachment). Second, moral turpitude offenses may be grounds to deny or revoke a professional license such as a teaching credential, license to practice law, or other licensed profession. Third, it is of great importance for immigration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States) purposes, as only those offenses which are defined as involving moral turpitude are considered bars to immigration into the U.S.


I am disgusted at your ignorance in saying that sessions=prostitution. You have zero credibility for making that statement. And quite frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. There are many FBBS/FIT/FIG/BIKINI competitors who do or have done sessions without full service and you probably encounter them when you take their pictures or shoot your video, you just don't know who they are. If they found out that you are making these outlandish statements, they will be very unhappy with you. Don't even try to justify your radio interview with vas as your only source regarding this. Statements you have made in the past and continue to do now is what got you banned from another site and it offended a lot of the competitors.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 12:59 PM
Tammy has asked this question and gotten a pretty one-sided "NO" answer elsewhere to:
"do you think the ifbb should .....
have in the contract...no pornographic videos, pics, session work etc? i ask because i think they would be concerned about the image the athletes portay as a rep for the ifbb."
__________________
Reference:

APPENDIX 1
to the
IFBB CONSTITUTION
IFBB CODE OF ETHICS
Introduction:
The IFBB Code of Ethics exist as a set of beliefs that have been written to serve as
guidelines for the way in which all Members, be they athletes, judges, officials,
administrators or others, should strive to conduct themselves as Members of the
IFBB family. National Federations and other Members join the IFBB of their own
free will and, in so doing, agree to abide by the IFBB Constitution and Rules of
which the Code of Ethics forms an integral part. Any Member who is found to
have contravened the Code of Ethics may be subject to disciplinary measures.
Athletes:
We, the athletes, realizing that our conduct reflects on the good name of the sport,
and realizing the responsibility thereby placed upon us, pledge ourselves:
1. to fulfill our responsibility to society, to other athletes, judges,
officials, and administrators of the IFBB.
2. to honour, dignify, and support the sport by competing in the best
condition and to the best of our ability, and by being in top shape when
giving an exhibition or a seminar.
3. to respect our opponents on equal terms in the spirit of friendly rivalry
and good sportsmanship.
4. to respect the IFBB Constitution and Rules as well as the rules of
competition and to observe them honestly in cooperation with other
competitors, judges, officials, administrators, and organizers.
5. to accept the decisions of the judges, officials and administrators in the
spirit of good sportsmanship without descending to selfish
recriminations, realizing that these decisions have been made honestly,
fairly, and objectively.
6. to assist the IFBB in the promotion of the sport by acting as a goodwill
ambassador of the sport, promoting the sport in a positive manner, and
protecting the good image and integrity of the sport and the IFBB.
7. to work for the IFBB, not against it, in promoting its values, morals
and ethics; to exercise our right of protest in a courteous, respectful
manner, following the proper chain of command; to refrain from
innuendo, malicious gossip and rumour-mongering; to refrain from
personal attacks against any other Member of the IFBB.
8. to continue striving for bodily perfection and correct moral principles.
9. to honour the special trust conferred upon us by our participation in,
and by our representation of, the IFBB and our country, at international
events, and to adhere to the standards of personal conduct expected of
us.
10. to recognize the value of the sport and to promote its future by serving
as an example to inspire other people to participate.
11. to cooperate with our officials and administrators in the development
of high standards, both moral and physical, for the sport and in the
progressive furtherance of the objects of the IFBB.
12. to oppose the use of banned substances and methods and to compete
drug-free.
13. to refrain from any conduct that may be considered prejudicial to the
IFBB;
14. to conduct ourselves at all times in a manner that reflects positively
upon the image of the sport and the IFBB.


This failed to become relevant with number 12 which I highlighted. It also does not specify adult related activities by competitors. #11 and #14 are subject to interpretation. Speaking against those that participate in adult related activities may be in conflict with rule #7.

To be clear, I am not for or against adult related activities. I just want this to be fair. We can't pick or choose when the most glaring *violation* of this IFBB constitution and code of ethics is rule #12. If they really enforced this, there may be an empty stage and everyone will be disqualified.

And towards that end, I'm not against performance enhancing either. Let's get real. We are not fooling anybody. Why else would they have these so-called natural organizations if they enforced rule #12?


The point of the whole matter is how many of you think that when you say that you are a FBB or a FIT/FIG/BIKINI competitor, people automatically think you are a porn star? Is that what they would think when you mention that you are an athlete in those 'sports'? I'm sure that the internet makes 'muscleporn' and such available now. But you have to look for it. It's not just there. I recently found out from reading and participating in bb forums that men's bb had what they call gay4pay sites out there. And that it has been in place long before the women had muscle porn. I never knew this and have never seen a site that caters to that. Don't want to. Again, my point is that you have to find it.......
I understand that some competitors get asked undesirable sexually explicit questions and get requests to do those, but they probably came from followers of the sport who assumed that all fbbs do that. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I doubt that you would get questions and requests from non bodybuilding fans.
If you were Cory Everson or Kim Chizevsky or Iris Kyle and you go out to speak to a crowd at a company or a school and people ask what you do and you reply that you are a bodybuilder, how many do you think will ask 'Are you a porn star'? Look if the powers that be were really going to enforce the IFBB CONSTITUTION and IFBB CODE OF ETHICS, they would have to enforce EVERYTHING. Not just being anti-porn. You can't pick or choose what to enforce and what not to conveniently enforce. And that includes #12 to oppose the use of banned substances and methods and to compete
drug-free.
I don't want to give the impression that i'm pro porn. Im just merely saying that in response to the original question "do you think the ifbb should .....
have in the contract...no pornographic videos, pics, session work etc? i ask because i think they would be concerned about the image the athletes portay as a rep for the ifbb." That no it won't affect the image of the athletes as a rep for the ifbb because any adult related activities they choose to do would not be public knowledge unless they follow the sport so intensely that they are aware of the sub-culture of fbb.
Whether I agree or disagree that they are doing porn is of no consequence. there should be no stipulation in their contract and they should what they please. I think we have gone round and round with this to no end.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 01:18 PM
I know and work with quite a lot of competitors doing all sorts of work, some of them do full porn female-to-male work and other variations. I don't shoot the pornos for them Ibar. That is my level of involvement in this industry. What is yours Ibar? What is the basis of your expertise? It has been established over a long period of your posting that you have a tight association and allegiance to male owned paysite operations, which contributed to this moral turpitude.
There was a time in Jacksonville when we had the Elwest (sp) Theater where they had "exotic" dancers masterbating behind glass windows in front of booths filled with masterbating patrons. The theater was shutdown for violating community standards. Now we have web camming sites where bodybuilding, fitness, figure, and yes bikini competitors are encouraged to do the same as full-nudity is allowed and as such encouraged if one wishes to be profitable, which is the lure that these male operators use as bait for new "talent."

You go ahead and be disgusted Ibar. I've been disgusted for a long time by those who claim to be the champions of women when in fact it's all about the pursuit of dinero muchacho.:)


I am disgusted at your ignorance in saying that sessions=prostitution. You have zero credibility for making that statement. And quite frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. There are many FBBS/FIT/FIG/BIKINI competitors who do or have done sessions without full service and you probably encounter them when you take their pictures or shoot your video, you just don't know who they are. If they found out that you are making these outlandish statements, they will be very unhappy with you. Don't even try to justify your radio interview with vas as your only source regarding this. Statements you have made in the past and continue to do now is what got you banned from another site and it offended a lot of the competitors.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 01:24 PM
I'm disgusted by your dishonesty Ibar claiming sessions workers aren't prostitutes, but claiming all IFBB pro bodybuilders are on steroids. What kind of defense is it to claim if you can't get hand jobs, blow jobs, can rides, and intercourse with sessions working IFBB pros or masterbate from some of their other provided sex tapes and pictures that they should all be drug tested then? lol. Sounds like more throwing women under the bus. Either you prostitute yourself or I want you drug tested.:yep:


This failed to become relevant with number 12 which I highlighted. It also does not specify adult related activities by competitors. #11 and #14 are subject to interpretation. Speaking against those that participate in adult related activities may be in conflict with rule #7.

To be clear, I am not for or against adult related activities. I just want this to be fair. We can't pick or choose when the most glaring *violation* of this IFBB constitution and code of ethics is rule #12. If they really enforced this, there may be an empty stage and everyone will be disqualified.

Carolyn Bryant
02-27-2010, 01:27 PM
Wow. Ibarramedia you killed me on that part about an empty stage if they enforced any of this. Like everything else, some people just take things to the extreme and make it bad for the rest.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 01:45 PM
Wow. Ibarramedia you killed me on that part about an empty stage if they enforced any of this. Like everything else, some people just take things to the extreme and make it bad for the rest.


It might have been an extreme statement, but you know what I mean. Just keeping it real. My point is you cannot pick and choose what to enforce. If you are really going to enforce something, do it all the way.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 01:48 PM
I'm disgusted by your dishonesty Ibar claiming sessions workers aren't prostitutes, but claiming all IFBB pro bodybuilders are on steroids. What kind of defense is it to claim if you can't get hand jobs, blow jobs, can rides, and intercourse with sessions working IFBB pros or masterbate from some of their other provided sex tapes and pictures that they should all be drug tested then? lol. Sounds like more throwing women under the bus. Either you prostitute yourself or I want you drug tested.:yep:
Are you saying that 100% of sessionaires are prostitutes? That they have sex in all sessions? Because that is what you keep saying. You can't pick or choose if you are going to use the IFBB guidelines argument.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 01:57 PM
I know and work with quite a lot of competitors doing all sorts of work, some of them do full porn female-to-male work and other variations. I don't shoot the pornos for them Ibar. That is my level of involvement in this industry. What is yours Ibar? What is the basis of your expertise? It has been established over a long period of your posting that you have a tight association and allegiance to male owned paysite operations, which contributed to this moral turpitude.
There was a time in Jacksonville when we had the Elwest (sp) Theater where they had "exotic" dancers masterbating behind glass windows in front of booths filled with masterbating patrons. The theater was shutdown for violating community standards. Now we have web camming sites where bodybuilding, fitness, figure, and yes bikini competitors are encouraged to do the same as full-nudity is allowed and as such encouraged if one wishes to be profitable, which is the lure that these male operators use as bait for new "talent."

You go ahead and be disgusted Ibar. I've been disgusted for a long time by those who claim to be the champions of women when in fact it's all about the pursuit of dinero muchacho.:)


I never said you shoot pornos for them. Where the hell did you get that? I said you shoot pictures and videos with competitors. Not PORN. Re read what I wrote. You're making up things. I have no loyalty to any paysite operator. I don't work for them nor am I a customer. And quite frankly, I don't undertand your vendetta with those guys. You need to stop with the labelling of session providers as prostitutes because it is plain wrong. All I've ever read from you is Prostitutes,prostitutes,prostitutes. We keep going around and around with this.

I will keep this simple. The question asked was:

'do you think the ifbb should ....
have in the contract...no pornagraphic videos, pics, session work etc? i ask because i think they would be concerned about the image the athletes portay as a rep for the ifbb."

My answer is No they should not.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 02:11 PM
Tens of thousands of words written and all you've read from me and "all I've ever read from you is Prostitutes,prostitutes,prostitutes," Ibar wrote, :faces:

English is an idiomatic language laced with sarcasm. Reread the statement again and recognize you can glean from what is stated your interpretation or another, which was that I don't shoot porn. Who knows, I might tomorrow, but I won't call it art if I do. Thanks for playing. :shake:


I never said you shoot pornos for them. Where the hell did you get that? I said you shoot pictures and videos with competitors. Not PORN. Re read what I wrote. You're making up things. I have no loyalty to any paysite operator. I don't work for them nor am I a customer. And quite frankly, I don't undertand your vendetta with those guys. You need to stop with the labelling of session providers as prostitutes because it is plain wrong. All I've ever read from you is Prostitutes,prostitutes,prostitutes.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 02:25 PM
So I wonder what Jason, aka Siouxcountry thinks about this topic as he walks a tight rope trying to in politically correct fashion be sensitive to the interests of women on either end of the spectrum with this issue? That's difficult to do in delineating positions in an argument that can clearly have two or more persuasive and diametrically opposed conclusions.
In building audience for the women's section of RxMuscle Dave & John have made great strides in bringing on a cross section of athletes most recently including Jenny & Adela with the new Muscle Girls Inc. And the tone of this forum has become much more women friendly. I'm happy for that as there need to many sources of support for women's athletics generally in order that it can grow and flourish.
Tammy P's question here is an important one relative to that end.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 02:34 PM
From what I gather you've lobbied to get Tammy banned for bringing this subject up Ibar. Why would you do that if in fact you are so supportive of the women as opposed to these male owned paysites you claim not to be closely associated with? :hypno:


*groan* I just have to see this topic again. This was posted elsewhere and a good discussion soon followed. Reading this version just makes me feel drained.

tammyp
02-27-2010, 03:00 PM
From what I gather you've lobbied to get Tammy banned for bringing this subject up Ibar. Why would you do that if in fact you are so supportive of the women as opposed to these male owned paysites you claim not to be closely associated with? :hypno:

reaallllllyyy? do tell.

Curt James
02-27-2010, 03:33 PM
^MPJ isn't known to stir pots, though. :p


what is the WADA?

World Anti-Doping Agency.

http://www.wada-ama.org/


The IFBB does not promote the position that female or male athletes in its organization should do porn or abuse drugs. It's policies state just the opposite. Those who do so and their supporters in the industry promulgate the image that it is appropriate, beneficial and acceptable, which it is not nor should it be.:)

The IFBB does promote abuse of drugs by rewarding those athletes who arrive on stage with the freakiest shape, size, and conditioning.

vE6uegoRiFk

Cutler states in that video that he has the edge and therefore he is the best. He's not alone.

Pornography is a wild card because who gets to define what is and is not obscene? Your comfort levels may be on an entirely different level from the next person's. Bill Dobbins' work is not pornographic, imo.

Prostitution is for hire, right? But how different is that from any person who accepts payment in trade for sexual services?

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/rich_guy.jpg

http://bleungberg.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/article-1033319-01e118ff00000578-191_468x286.jpg

I doubt those are pics of proud grandfathers. :cloud:


(snip) it's all about the pursuit of dinero muchacho.:)

Agreed. And this is why the IFBB turns a blind eye to steroid use.

Look at Vince McMahon's WBF for verification. Without steroid-enhanced physiques, his organization took a prompt nosedive.

http://pwchronicle.blogspot.com/2005/12/history-definitive-history-of-wbf.html

From that link:

"With the government looking over his shoulder, McMahon even went so far as to have Dr. Dipasquale appear on the pay-per-view in one of the intermission spots filled by the WBF dancers twelve months before. Dipasquale explained that he had developed a set of testing guidelines even more intensive than those used by the International Olympic Committee, and named all of the illegal performance enhancers that he could detect. Judging from the form of the stars of the World Bodybuilding Federation that afternoon, the Dr. wasn’t exaggerating."

tammyp
02-27-2010, 03:34 PM
im not worried..just playin:)

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 03:36 PM
Only available on the Forum Confidential show Tammy. Gotta protect my sources:p

reaallllllyyy? do tell.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 03:44 PM
Who me?:lmao:

And where did you get that picture of me and my friends? :gh:




^MPJ isn't known to stir pots, though. :p
I doubt those are pics of proud grandfathers. :cloud:

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 03:58 PM
From what I gather you've lobbied to get Tammy banned for bringing this subject up Ibar. Why would you do that if in fact you are so supportive of the women as opposed to these male owned paysites you claim not to be closely associated with? :hypno:


Hey Wait a damn minute!! Now that is an outright lie. I never said that ever. Where do you get this garbage? This is why it is a waste of time to talk to you about anything. You made that up and I'm calling you a liar.

Why would I want to have her banned? Tammy is cool. You on the other hand, are not. You must be on drugs or seriously delusional. :no:

This is why you have no credibilty. You make up things that make no sense and are outright lies.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 03:58 PM
im not worried..just playin:)

Tammy, I never said that. MPJ just made that up.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 03:59 PM
Only available on the Forum Confidential show Tammy. Gotta protect my sources:p


You have no sources.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 04:08 PM
You are too funny Mr. Source of all credibility. This isn't the first time you have tried to get someone banned. It's all good.
As for why you would seek to have her banned I stated it above didn't I? It is this same tired old patriarchal thingie where if someone opposes some of your friends providing masterbation material distribution on the web you get upset. You've done the same with me. If you know for a fact that this is a baseless claim then you prove the negative?:yep:


Hey Wait a damn minute!! Now that is an outright lie. I never said that ever. Where do you get this garbage? This is why it is a waste of time to talk to you about anything. You made that up and I'm calling you a liar.

Why would I want to have her banned? Tammy is cool. You on the other hand, are not. You must be on drugs or seriously delusional. :no:

This is why you have no credibilty. You make up things that make no sense and are outright lies.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 04:13 PM
You are too funny Mr. Source of all credibility. This isn't the first time you have tried to get someone banned. It's all good.
As for why you would seek to have her banned I stated it above didn't I? It is this same tired old patriarchal thingie where if someone opposes some of your friends providing masterbation material distribution on the web you get upset. You've done the same with me. If you know for a fact that this is a baseless claim then you prove the negative?:yep:
I'm done with a liar like you. You're just sad......
You are attempting to bait me into a flame war and derail a decent discussion. well,you won't succeed. I have no time for this nonsense.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 04:16 PM
Not baiting you at all fellar. You call me names like "liar, liar, pants on fire" and AGAIN say you are done with me and bag up your marbles & dirty magazines and videos and return to more passive pastures where the masturbation materials run free:flowers::byeb:


I'm done with a liar like you. You're just sad......
You are attempting to bait me into a flame war and derail a decent discussion. well,you won't succeed. I have no time for this nonsense.

Curt James
02-27-2010, 04:26 PM
Not baiting you at all fellar.

You're being what many people would call argumentative, though.


You call me names like "liar, liar, pants on fire" and AGAIN say you are done with me and bag up your marbles & dirty magazines and videos and return to more passive pastures where the masturbation materials run free:flowers::byeb:

And that's not "baiting"?

Rhetorical.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 04:42 PM
In debate when the losing team resorts to calling the other team members liars, delusional, etc it would be reasonable to characterize the winning side as argumentative. Logic and contemporary rhetoric was one of my favorite undergrad classes approximately three decades ago. One hundred and sixty credit hours later and I still marvel at the use of logic and rhetoric in every day life.:yep:


You're being what many people would call argumentative, though.
And that's not "baiting"?
Rhetorical.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 04:49 PM
Pissing & Moaning Can Pay Off!

Lawrence, Kansas, December 12, 2008
A Kansas farm wife called the local phone company to report her telephone failed to ring when her friends called - and that on the few occasions, when it did ring, her dog always moaned right before the phone rang.

The telephone repairman proceeded to the scene, curious to see this psychic dog or senile lady. He climbed a telephone pole, hooked in his test set, and dialed the subscriber's house.

The phone didn't ring right away, but then the dog moaned and the telephone began to ring.

Climbing down from the pole, the telephone repairman found:

1 . The dog was tied to the telephone system's ground wire with a steel chain and collar.

2. The wire connection to the ground rod was loose.

3. The dog was receiving 90 volts of signaling current when the number was called.

4.. After a couple of jolts, the dog would start moaning and then urinate.

5. The wet ground would complete the circuit, thus causing the phone to ring.

Which demonstrates that some problems CAN be fixed by
pissing and moaning.


Thought you'd like to know.

AnglicanBeachParty
02-27-2010, 04:55 PM
well i wake up and look at what i find:)

i would like to hear from some IFBB pros on this. i think saying wbbing is under funded, we gotta make money to support competing is well, SHIT. have a legit job, save and sacrifice. i havent had a real vacation in years due to contest expenses. porn cheapens us, period.

If the expectation is to have a job (outside of bodybuilding), save and sacrifice ... how does that in any sense merit the title "Professional"? It sounds like an amateur/hobby thing to me.

In every other realm of human endeavor, sports included, the word "professional" means you earn your living at it ... and don't have to have another job besides.

FWIW, I wish there was no porn aspect to bodybuilding, I would not mind one bit if the IFBB passed down negative sanctions against those participating in it, and I wish that whole seamy side of things had not attached itself to the sport of bodybuilding. I do agree that it has negative consequences, harming even those who do not participate in it.

But, that having been said, I am still left wondering: Why is it only bodybuilding in which "Pro" means you still pay your own way?

Curt James
02-27-2010, 04:55 PM
In debate when the losing team resorts to calling the other team members liars, delusional, etc it would be reasonable to characterize the winning side as (snip)

Do you believe you're winning here? :(

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 05:07 PM
Hello.I am a female bodybuilder that does sessions. I make amazing money and have been doing it for many years now. I love it and I love the lifestyle I can live because of it. I love my body and am very comfortable with it although many people are not. I have heard the "it's a shemale" and "steroid monster". I don't care. I also don't compete, never have and have no intention of doing so. I am one of the females that give "female bodybuilders a bad name". Guess what. I'm not going to stop what I'm doing. I'm sorry if it hurts competitive female bodybuilding but this is my choice and I love it. Perhaps on focusing on the girls that do sessions female bodybuilders should focus on the actual problem which is hurting their sport. Drug abuse. I am not your problem. You are your problem. There are many girls that don't do sessions or porn, that are female bodybuilders. You want to blame us girls involved in the sex industry because you don't want to focus on the actual problem....the freaky, masculine physiques. I have one of these physiques and I love it. However that is the problem with women's bodybuilding. So focus on it instead of blaming us who are comfortable with what we do for money and pleasure.

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 05:11 PM
If you did manage to implement a rule stating competitive female bodybuilders are not allowed to be involved in the sex industry, many of us would still be involved that do not compete. So you aren't solving anything.

Curt James
02-27-2010, 05:14 PM
If the expectation is to have a job (outside of bodybuilding), save and sacrifice ... how does that in any sense merit the title "Professional"? It sounds like an amateur/hobby thing to me.

In every other realm of human endeavor, sports included, the word "professional" means you earn your living at it ... and don't have to have another job besides.(snip)

But, that having been said, I am still left wondering: Why is it only bodybuilding in which "Pro" means you still pay your own way?

Never gave that a thought, but it's so true. Kobe doesn't bag groceries on the weekends or ref pick-up bball games in the evenings to make ends meet.

Wouldn't it be possible for the IFBB to share the wealth? Wouldn't it be feasible for MuscleTech, BSN, Gaspari Nutrition et al. to contribute to a pool to raise prize money? Won't there ever come a day when IFBB Pro means that you're a member of an organization which respects the contribution and sacrifice you make as an athlete?

Obviously, the IFBB and any other physique organization does not wield the financial power that is the domain of the NFL and other professional sports, but there must be something that can be learned from players associations in other sports.

The National Football League Players Association is the union for professional football players in the National Football League. Established in 1956, the NFLPA has a long history of assuring proper recognition and representation of players’ interests. The NFLPA has shown that it will do whatever is necessary to assure that the rights of players are protected—including ceasing to be a union, if necessary, as it did in 1989. In 1993, the NFLPA again was officially recognized as the union representing the players, and negotiated a landmark Collective Bargaining Agreement with the NFL. The current CBA will govern the sport through 2011. The NFL Players Association:


Represents all players in matters concerning wages, hours and working conditions and protects their rights as professional football players
Assures that the terms of the Collective Bargaining Agreement are met
Negotiates and monitors retirement and insurance benefits
Provides other member services and activities
Provides assistance to charitable and community organizations
Enhances and defends the image of players and their profession on and off the field

From http://www.nflplayers.com/about-us/


FWIW, I wish there was no porn aspect to bodybuilding, I would not mind one bit if the IFBB passed down negative sanctions for athletes against those participating in it, and I wish that whole seamy side of things had not attached itself to the sport of bodybuilding. I do agree that it has negative consequences, harming even those who do not participate in it.

While I definitely see your viewpoint and agree almost entirely, it does seem as if it's an almost impossible task to separate bodybuilding from sex.

We're talking about the human form and that is nuts and bolts to sexual attraction.

My friends would joke about figure drawing while I was in college, wondering if I wasn't turned on by the nude models. Well, not all of them were centerfolds for one, but even the well built young female models (who normally would be appealing) were turned into a trigonometry lesson or something anything but arousing for the fact that I was looking at the model as a puzzle to solve or an assignment to complete.

I find bodybuilding much the same. This is a competition and in the context of the competition, we're not talking - or I'm not considering - the "seamy side of things". Although I'll make the exception for Claudia Montemaggi. ;)

YouTube- Claudia Montemaggi Ms. Millenium

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 05:16 PM
Do you believe you're winning here? :(

If you would care to provide what you consider winning arguments in this thread on the side of Don't Support Abiding by IFBB Constitution, Code of Ethics we might get a better idea:)

Support Abiding by IFBB Constitution, Code of Ethics
1. Stated policy of private association
2. Negatively impacts image of other IFBB pros
3. Potentially jeopardizes financial opportunities of other IFBB Pros onstage & off as it is essentially a nuisance.
4. Porn is illegal and as such cannot be supported by the IFBB or its members and as such causes potential undue legal liabilities to the IFBB and members.

Don't Support Abiding by IFBB Constitution, Code of Ethics
1.?
2.?
3.?

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 05:18 PM
I also think what any woman chooses to do to make money or for pleasure is HER business. Let female bodybuilding be about what is presented on the stage that day. PERIOD. Leave her personal life PERSONAL.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 05:26 PM
What one does for hire isn't private actually, but commerce that government regulates. Do you withhold sales tax? Do you itemize on your income tax? Do you have a satisfaction guarantee? Can one find you listed with the Better Business Bureau? Furthermore, if the activities were legal then the contests promoters would be charging a vendor fee for those sex workers providing services at their announced host hotels that are embarked on by schmoes that often don't attend the competitions. :)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and perceptions though. :hmn:


I also think what any woman chooses to do to make money or for pleasure is HER business. Let female bodybuilding be about what is presented on the stage that day. PERIOD. Leave her personal life PERSONAL.

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 05:28 PM
I do my taxes honestly and my business is my only income.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 05:32 PM
Tip toeing through tulips here I'll congratulate you on that. Yet, I know you get my point about commerce being regulated by gooberment and not being private:)


I do my taxes honestly and my business is my only income.

The Big Sexy
02-27-2010, 05:34 PM
I also think what any woman chooses to do to make money or for pleasure is HER business. Let female bodybuilding be about what is presented on the stage that day. PERIOD. Leave her personal life PERSONAL.

This is very selfish, and not the way the world works.

As I've stated above, the NFL puts restrictions on what players can do on and off the field. A player can say - naw, that's just football... I'm going to make my rap songs about shooting people and slanging drugs (which, is completely legal - ask any rapper). Yet, the NFL prohibits this... it also prohibits players interacting and hanging out with these groups (aka - from back in the hood).

I'm sure this philosophy works out wonderful for you. Let bodybuilding be bodybuilding. .. let my porn be about me. However, your porn reflects poorly on bodybuilding and the other competitors who get on stage... little do you care about that, I'm sure. Which, is exactly why it can be controlled.

Also, as stated above... the IFBB and NPC are privately run organizations. If you want to be a part of them - you have to play by their rules. Plain and simple.

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 05:37 PM
Tip toeing through tulips here I'll congratulate you on that. Yet, I know you get my point about commerce being regulated by gooberment and not being private:)

I do. However wading through this thread past all the garble the true point is if competitive female bodybuilders should get punished for choosing to be in the sex trade. I say no. In fact I think the sex side of FBB may be one of the few things keeping female bodybuilding viable. Take that away and you have a bunch of drugged up gals with no support. People don't like how female bodybuilders look and don't want to see "female" freaks. Only male freaks. Female freaks resemble males. Male freaks resemble "freaky looking males". I'm calling a spade a spade here. The ladies have to tone it down and bring the feminine look. And I don't care if the "face" is pretty. People don't like big muscles on girls.

The Big Sexy
02-27-2010, 05:38 PM
No matter how much Curt whines or nitpicks... no matter how much session girl dances around her statement that porn and FBB are separate. The fact remains that the IFBB and NPC are well within their rights, legally, to suspend and expel any competitor who violates any of the rules they set forth. Each year, you apply for a membership and are granted it - as a privilege. YOU nor anyone has the right to be a part of the NPC.

Any exercise of the 1st amendment freedom of speech is irrelevant and inapplicable here.

So - what's the argument? That it isn't right that the IFBB may or may not do this? Suck it up... you do porn for a living... find something more constructive to do with your time.

Curt James
02-27-2010, 05:43 PM
If you would care to provide what you consider winning arguments in this thread on the side of Don't Support Abiding by IFBB Constitution, Code of Ethics we might get a better idea:)

Support Abiding by IFBB Constitution, Code of Ethics
1. Stated policy of private association
2. Negatively impacts image of other IFBB pros
3. Potentially jeopardizes financial opportunities of other IFBB Pros onstage & off as it is essentially a nuisance.
4. Porn is illegal and as such cannot be supported by the IFBB or its members and as such causes potential undue legal liabilities to the IFBB and members.
(snip)

I'd rather take a shot at tearing your argument apart. ":)"


The IFBB pays lip service to its so-called Code of Ethics.
How would the imagined goings-on behind closed doors impact the image of any IFBB athlete?
How do private activities present a nuisance?
Likewise how would those activites jeopardize any athlete's opportunities?
Porn's illegal? I guess Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, et al. are something you can't find on the newsstand or online.


A cursory Google seems to differ with you if that's your opinion on the last bullet.

http://www.magazineline.com/Haupt/Category/CategoryForm.aspx

The Big Sexy
02-27-2010, 05:46 PM
I'd rather take a shot at tearing your argument apart. ":)"


The IFBB pays lip service to its so-called Code of Ethics.
How would the imagined goings-on behind closed doors impact the image of any IFBB athlete?
How do private activities present a nuisance?
Likewise how would those activites jeopardize any athlete's opportunities?
Porn's illegal? I guess Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, et al. are something you can't find on the newsstand or online.


A cursory Google seems to differ with you if that's your opinion on the last bullet.

http://www.magazineline.com/Haupt/Category/CategoryForm.aspx

Porn isn't illegal... it is regulated and controlled. You can't do anything you want with it. There are rules and restrictions as to what you can do and a certain guideline... I bet many of these fly by night webcam sites don't take the time to deal with the legal and are sitting on a land mine.

Female bodybuilding is not controlled or regulated by any federal or state law. It is Legal and not controlled.

Curt James
02-27-2010, 05:48 PM
(snip)Yet, the NFL (snip)the IFBB and NPC are privately run organizations. If you want to be a part of them - you have to play by their rules. Plain and simple.

The NFL treats its athletes better than the IFBB treats their athletes.

And they stated they're not "a part of them" and so therefore is not held to their rules.

Did you miss that bit?

Toniann
02-27-2010, 06:03 PM
Is this topic about porn (meaning some type of sexual act) or just plain nudity (flexing,posing) because flexing in the nude is not porn. Cause in the rest of the world and the world is a very big place, someone being naked and not engaging in some type of sexual act is not porn.
So some girl doing a wrestling session and nothing is being penetrated is not porn even though some narrow minded people may think a butt cheek is porn. The reality is it is not.

tammyp
02-27-2010, 06:10 PM
down right PORN:) not web cam flexing, or tastful nudes. this topic is porno movies, sessions and the like.

Toniann
02-27-2010, 06:12 PM
down right PORN:) not web cam flexing, or tastful nudes. this topic is porno movies, sessions and the like.


People here are getting the 2 confused. They are referring to anything nude as being porn.

tammyp
02-27-2010, 06:16 PM
look at it this way....

doing porn or session work, do you tell your parents? have a spouse that supports it? doubt it. i look at it this way, if you dont want certain people to see it or hear about it, dont do it! all my pics my husband and dad can see, proudly.

Curt James
02-27-2010, 06:27 PM
Is this topic about porn (meaning some type of sexual act) or just plain nudity (flexing,posing) because flexing in the nude is not porn. Cause in the rest of the world and the world is a very big place, someone being naked and not engaging in some type of sexual act is not porn.
So some girl doing a wrestling session and nothing is being penetrated is not porn even though some narrow minded people may think a butt cheek is porn. The reality is it is not.

Agreed.


down right PORN:) not web cam flexing, or tastful nudes. this topic is porno movies, sessions and the like.


People here are getting the 2 confused. They are referring to anything nude as being porn.


look at it this way....

doing porn or session work, do you tell your parents? have a spouse that supports it? doubt it. i look at it this way, if you dont want certain people to see it or hear about it, dont do it! all my pics my husband and dad can see, proudly.

Tammy and 1fitchic, I believe there's also some confusion or a dispute over what "sessions" are. Wrestling without penetration, lift and carry take place during sessions, correct?

I don't believe that all women who participate in "sessions" are prostitutes nor do I believe that sessions are automatically pornographic activities.

And Tammy, I suspect being proud of pics would depend on the comfort level of the person photographed. As 1fitchic stated, "the world is a very big place," and societal and cultural mores vary significantly.

Curt James
02-27-2010, 06:28 PM
So - what's the argument? (snip)

It's a discussion.

But if it was an argument, MPJ would be losing. ":)"


I do. However wading through this thread past all the garble the true point is if competitive female bodybuilders should get punished for choosing to be in the sex trade. I say no. In fact I think the sex side of FBB may be one of the few things keeping female bodybuilding viable. Take that away and you have a bunch of drugged up gals with no support. People don't like how female bodybuilders look and don't want to see "female" freaks. Only male freaks. Female freaks resemble males. Male freaks resemble "freaky looking males". I'm calling a spade a spade here. The ladies have to tone it down and bring the feminine look. And I don't care if the "face" is pretty. People don't like big muscles on girls.

This.

In a perfect world there would be viable PG-13 Rated activities for female athletes to pursue.

Yes, everyone has a choice, but the deck seems to be stacked against female bodybuilders so far as the "Wheaties box" is concerned. Baseball, hot dogs, and apple pie is not the realm of female bodybuilding or even men's bodybuilding for that matter. It's oiled people dancing on stage in their underwear. Some people get that while others see only a niche activity to be mocked.

Definitely a Catch-22 situation if there ever was one.

Successful IFBB Pro female bodybuilders realize that obvious drug use may have a negative impact on their image, however to prevent that negative impact from occurring they're faced with a decision to stop using those drugs. That action will, more often than not, erase their ability to be a successful IFBB Pro female bodybuilder.


Tammy has asked this question and gotten a pretty one-sided "NO" answer elsewhere to:
"do you think the ifbb should .....
have in the contract...no pornographic videos, pics, session work etc? i ask because i think they would be concerned about the image the athletes portray as a rep for the ifbb."(snip)

Tammy, MPJ, clearly the IFBB is not concerned about the image its athletes portray. As long as the money is rolling in, I'm going to guess the IFBB is pleased as punch. This is true of most businesses and so not necessarily a criticism.

Am I wrong in assuming that the Bikini division was promoted to increase revenue? Someone asked - was it Tré? - if anyone on the street would recognize the acronym "IFBB". Well, take those same people on the street and show them an IFBB Pro Bikini competition and they'll say, "Hey, check out the bod on that one!" Or "Oh, dear, it's a T&A show."

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 06:31 PM
Sessions fall into four categories:


1) Submissive wrestling, for men who want to be pinned.


2) Pure wrestling, which involves more back-and-forth action without trying to hurt one another.


3) Body worship, in which the man rubs oil on the woman and admires her body. The woman also flexes her muscles and goes into her posing routine for him to admire. I think this is the most common.


4) And the least common, combative wrestling, in which the man tries to win.



Hope this helps. :)

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 06:40 PM
Am I wrong in assuming that the Bikini division was promoted to increase revenue? Someone asked - was it Tré? - if anyone on the street would recognize the acronym "IFBB". Well, take those same people on the street and show them an IFBB Pro Bikini competition and they'll say, "Hey, check out the bod on that one!" Or "Oh, dear, it's a T&A show."


Yes, it was Tre' that asked if anybody on the street would recognize the acronym IFBB. And yes, the bikini division was promoted to bring in increased revenue. That is no secret. Many have made passionate agreements for and against the Bikini division. While it is here to stay, many who don't like it just hope for the best and play along with it. Some hope to use bikini as a launching point for future figure or fbb competitions as their body achieves muscle maturity.

The T&A show is what the powers that be hope to capitalize in it's revenue. This is also what hardcore FBBs dislike about it. But in the end they reluctantly recognize the business end of it.

HammerStrength12
02-27-2010, 07:38 PM
Sessions, porno all that stuff is degrading to the women IMO. De-ligitimizes the hard work and sacrifice yall put into the sport and I applaud any effort made to make all that bs illegal in the IFBB.

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 07:40 PM
This is very selfish, and not the way the world works.

As I've stated above, the NFL puts restrictions on what players can do on and off the field. A player can say - naw, that's just football... I'm going to make my rap songs about shooting people and slanging drugs (which, is completely legal - ask any rapper). Yet, the NFL prohibits this... it also prohibits players interacting and hanging out with these groups (aka - from back in the hood).

I'm sure this philosophy works out wonderful for you. Let bodybuilding be bodybuilding. .. let my porn be about me. However, your porn reflects poorly on bodybuilding and the other competitors who get on stage... little do you care about that, I'm sure. Which, is exactly why it can be controlled.

Also, as stated above... the IFBB and NPC are privately run organizations. If you want to be a part of them - you have to play by their rules. Plain and simple.

Like I have stated I am not a competitor. However it is not FBB porn that is hurting them. It is their physiques and how most people react to those physiques. You may find what I do selfish but I don't. I make many men happy, I have provided a more than comfortable life for my son and daughter, and I love what I do. Women that play soccer, tennis or volleyball and do porn have no bearing on the professional women in these sports. Same with bodybuilding. They are shunned because of their physique.

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 07:46 PM
No matter how much Curt whines or nitpicks... no matter how much session girl dances around her statement that porn and FBB are separate. The fact remains that the IFBB and NPC are well within their rights, legally, to suspend and expel any competitor who violates any of the rules they set forth. Each year, you apply for a membership and are granted it - as a privilege. YOU nor anyone has the right to be a part of the NPC.

Any exercise of the 1st amendment freedom of speech is irrelevant and inapplicable here.

So - what's the argument? That it isn't right that the IFBB may or may not do this? Suck it up... you do porn for a living... find something more constructive to do with your time.

I could care less if the IFBB enforced a rule not allowing FBB's in the sex industry. It hurts them more. More FBB's won't be able to afford to compete. Less competitors, the less promoters will be willing to put on a show and less shows. Let them do it and watch what happens. I'd also like to say in the most polite possible way screw you. Just because you don't find what I do constructive doesn't mean others do feel the same way. I entertain and provide a service. Big money and in high demand. What I do and regular porn stars do have a very important place in society. If you fail to see why you are quite ignorant.

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 07:54 PM
look at it this way....

doing porn or session work, do you tell your parents? have a spouse that supports it? doubt it. i look at it this way, if you dont want certain people to see it or hear about it, dont do it! all my pics my husband and dad can see, proudly.

Sadly my father has passed on but my mother knows what I do. She does not like it but she does support me and love me. My children know what I do although they did not when they were younger, nor would they have understood it. All my friends and family know and encourage and love me. My mother and my aunt are the only one who don't like it but they don't judge. When I do sessions sometimes sex is involved and sometimes sex is not involved. It is the same for all of the women I know who do sessions. I do not know one female bodybuilder who does sessions who has not been involved in some sort of sexual physical act. There are times however, when it is strictly "wrestling" or "posing". I'd venture on average it is maybe 60/40.

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 08:01 PM
Sessions fall into four categories:


1) Submissive wrestling, for men who want to be pinned.


2) Pure wrestling, which involves more back-and-forth action without trying to hurt one another.


3) Body worship, in which the man rubs oil on the woman and admires her body. The woman also flexes her muscles and goes into her posing routine for him to admire. I think this is the most common.


4) And the least common, combative wrestling, in which the man tries to win.



Hope this helps. :)


Wow. You've done this many times! LOL. This is correct for the non-sexual side of sessions. For the sexual side this is "foreplay", and then sexual acts may take place. To be perfectly honest many women who do sessions and are secretly ashamed will tell you this is all that sessions are. However many do involve sex and most women will deny this. I have found that many pro female bodybuilders deny any type of sexual act. They fear the consequences that may come when competing, and the backlash of their peers. And I don't blame that at all for that.The reason they don't deny sessions is because they can't. It is far to easy to prove they do sessions. However it is much harder to prove what occurs in those sessions.

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 08:07 PM
Sessions, porno all that stuff is degrading to the women IMO. De-ligitimizes the hard work and sacrifice yall put into the sport and I applaud any effort made to make all that bs illegal in the IFBB.

So how do you propose these ladies come up with the money to compete then? Or pay rent? Buy the AAS needed to maintain their competitive phsyiques? Yes they can get a regular job but the money in the sex industry is much better, unless of course you have a great education and have a masters or PHD. I have a biology degree. I did use it and made decent money (60000/yr when I stopped using it) but I make better money now and have much more fun doing it. Many FBB's that compete have no degree.

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 08:08 PM
I should thank you for letting me "hog" much of this conversation btw! Lol! You have definitely tugged at one of my heart strings with this topic.

The Big Sexy
02-27-2010, 08:24 PM
I could care less if the IFBB enforced a rule not allowing FBB's in the sex industry. It hurts them more. More FBB's won't be able to afford to compete. Less competitors, the less promoters will be willing to put on a show and less shows. Let them do it and watch what happens. I'd also like to say in the most polite possible way screw you. Just because you don't find what I do constructive doesn't mean others do feel the same way. I entertain and provide a service. Big money and in high demand. What I do and regular porn stars do have a very important place in society. If you fail to see why you are quite ignorant.

Then stick to porn, please.

The Big Sexy
02-27-2010, 08:26 PM
Like I have stated I am not a competitor. However it is not FBB porn that is hurting them. It is their physiques and how most people react to those physiques. You may find what I do selfish but I don't. I make many men happy, I have provided a more than comfortable life for my son and daughter, and I love what I do. Women that play soccer, tennis or volleyball and do porn have no bearing on the professional women in these sports. Same with bodybuilding. They are shunned because of their physique.

Power to the people... Who are you trying to convince here? Me... or you?

You don't have to justify anything to me. You make your choices, and I make mine. It seems like you take offense to my thinking because it casts an ill light upon what you do for a living. If you truly saw no problem with what you did, you wouldn't have a need to so feverishly defend yourself.

I think you need to look deep inside yourself and ask yourself "Do I respect what I do? Do I respect me?"

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 08:34 PM
Power to the people... Who are you trying to convince here? Me... or you?

You don't have to justify anything to me. You make your choices, and I make mine. It seems like you take offense to my thinking because it casts an ill light upon what you do for a living. If you truly saw no problem with what you did, you wouldn't have a need to so feverishly defend yourself.

I think you need to look deep inside yourself and ask yourself "Do I respect what I do? Do I respect me?"

I am offended at your blatant insult and nothing else. If I truly had a problem with what I did then I would not talk about it and try to hide it. I love what I do and am not ashamed. This is why I defend myself and others, not the opposite. When someone is ashamed of something they hide it and do not discuss it. I respect myself and what I do and that has been obvious from the time I first posted. Many women who do sessions do not and that is why they do not discuss it. Do not try to assume what I am thinking and feeling as you have failed miserably at it.

Curt James
02-27-2010, 08:36 PM
I should thank you for letting me "hog" much of this conversation btw! Lol! You have definitely tugged at one of my heart strings with this topic.

Your contributions to this conversation have been interesting. Thanks for offering your opinion!

HammerStrength12
02-27-2010, 08:48 PM
So how do you propose these ladies come up with the money to compete then? Or pay rent? Buy the AAS needed to maintain their competitive phsyiques? Yes they can get a regular job but the money in the sex industry is much better, unless of course you have a great education and have a masters or PHD. I have a biology degree. I did use it and made decent money (60000/yr when I stopped using it) but I make better money now and have much more fun doing it. Many FBB's that compete have no degree.


What happens when the parents, kids or husband's friends find out that mommy strips and puts schmoes in full nelsons for dough?? The ridicule and humiliation would be endless. No responsible person would put their kids/family at risk like that. There are PLENTY of other ways to make money to finance competitions.

Toniann
02-27-2010, 08:59 PM
What happens when the parents, kids or husband's friends find out that mommy strips and puts schmoes in full nelsons for dough?? The ridicule and humiliation would be endless. No responsible person would put their kids/family at risk like that. There are PLENTY of other ways to make money to finance competitions.


No offense but my only concern is to my kids and family, I could care less what someone else thinks of me or what I do for a living. As a parent one thing I have learned is that people always have something to say no matter what you do. I get it all the time from the other parents at my child's school about my working out and I could care less. I don't live life worrying about what strangers / people who don't matter to me say or think of me.

SessionGal
02-27-2010, 09:08 PM
What happens when the parents, kids or husband's friends find out that mommy strips and puts schmoes in full nelsons for dough?? The ridicule and humiliation would be endless. No responsible person would put their kids/family at risk like that. There are PLENTY of other ways to make money to finance competitions.

People deal with ridicule and humiliation in different ways. Children with 2 homosexual parents receive ridicule as well but find a way to deal. My children found out what I did at around the age of 12 because I told them. They know, their friends know, their teachers and sport instructors know. They have not recieved ridicule or humiliation. This is probably because I am not ashamed and have raised them to not be ashamed of what I do. Some people probably do not approve but people absolutely do know. To my face I am treated like any other person. My kids are too. Perhaps behind our backs we are flamed at but we don't care. We're stronger than that. Now PLEASE enlighten us with the plenty of other ways to make money to finance competitions AND pay for the cost of living.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 09:14 PM
Wow. You've done this many times! LOL. This is correct for the non-sexual side of sessions. For the sexual side this is "foreplay", and then sexual acts may take place. To be perfectly honest many women who do sessions and are secretly ashamed will tell you this is all that sessions are. However many do involve sex and most women will deny this. I have found that many pro female bodybuilders deny any type of sexual act. They fear the consequences that may come when competing, and the backlash of their peers. And I don't blame that at all for that.The reason they don't deny sessions is because they can't. It is far to easy to prove they do sessions. However it is much harder to prove what occurs in those sessions.


Believe it or not, I have never been a session customer nor have I been webcam customer. I just state the facts I know from being around the scene for quite a few years. I lalso learned a lot form other message boards like these. :)

Tre
02-27-2010, 09:23 PM
But, that having been said, I am still left wondering: Why is it only bodybuilding in which "Pro" means you still pay your own way?

Point-of-information:

'Pros' in tennis, golf, and other quasi-athletic pursuits like bowling actually DO pay their own way. Sure, many have sponsors picking up the tab, but there are also many men and women who struggle to pay their entry fees. Q-school alone is a few thousand dollars.

As an invitational, all basic expenses are covered for participants in The Masters.

Bodybuilding is not in any way unique with regard to what athletes pay to compete.

....

I would like to add that I LOVE Tammy P and I think her position is certainly within reason, even though my personal standards are even more relaxed (for lack of a better term). Lest any of you try to start any shit - an RX community trademark - our difference of opinion here has zero bearing whatsoever on how I feel about her as a person and athlete. (no h***)

The Big Sexy
02-27-2010, 09:29 PM
I am offended at your blatant insult and nothing else. If I truly had a problem with what I did then I would not talk about it and try to hide it. I love what I do and am not ashamed. This is why I defend myself and others, not the opposite. When someone is ashamed of something they hide it and do not discuss it. I respect myself and what I do and that has been obvious from the time I first posted. Many women who do sessions do not and that is why they do not discuss it. Do not try to assume what I am thinking and feeling as you have failed miserably at it.

My name is Louis Uridel. What is yours? Or, perhaps should I call you hypocrite?

Listen, as sure as the Sun raises in the East and sets in the West - words, expressions and responses can tell an entire story about a person. If you were truly proud of what you did - you wouldn't be reacting in this way.

Provide for your kids? Bring in a good income? Put food on the table? your friends and family all support you? These are all justifications... things to make you cope with what it is that you do. These, do not make what you do, correct or socially acceptable.

When you dance outside the circles of sunshine and roses, don't be surprised when a bird shits on your head.

Ibarramedia
02-27-2010, 09:41 PM
Here is a cleaner, clinical version of the description of muscle worship sessions:

Muscle worship - is a form of body worship in which a participant, the worshiper, touches the muscles of another participant, the dominator, in sexually arousing ways, which can include rubbing, massaging, kissing and licking.

The dominator is almost always either a bodybuilder (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/wiki/Bodybuilding), a fitness competitor (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/wiki/Fitness_competition), or an individual with a large body size and a high degree of visible muscle tone, while worshipers are often, but not always, skinnier, smaller, and more out of shape. Muscle worship can include participants of both sexes and all sexual orientations

The amount of forceful domination and pain used in muscle worship varies widely, depending on the desires of the participants. Sometimes, the dominator uses his or her size and strength to pin a smaller worshiper, forcing the worshiper to praise his or her muscles, while in other cases, the worshiper simply feels and compliments the muscles of a flexing dominator.

Both male and female bodybuilders often offer muscle worship sessions for a price in order to supplement their low or nonexistent income from bodybuilding competitions. Although these sessions rarely involve sexual activities, they offer fans--both male and female--the rare chance to meet and touch a muscular man or woman in person.

fitmomma3
02-27-2010, 09:56 PM
WOW what an interesting thread!! I say interesting because if its not one thing in FBB its another. ON the one hand... "we" woman are fighting not to be told we have to look feminine, not too be told we can't look to big, not to be told we can't be over androgenized ETC ETC ETC... (I know that hits a nerve but come on its all the rave)... on the other hand we want to keep FBB classy and sophisticated so we want to abolish porn and muscle worship? I TOTALLY GET WHERE TAMMY"S coming from and as much as I agree I honestly don't see it making much of a difference. Why? Because how many PORN/WEB FETISH people are MORE KNOWN THAN ACTUAL COMPETITORS!

Lets take main exposure... E's special on FBBs... more time was spent of Lauren Powers and her schmoe buddy than most anything else. I'm sure people would recognize and know Meissa Detwiller's face in the sport before they would recognize who just won their pro card last year. This is no disrespect to competitors, but its just how it is.

Should the IFBB prohibit it? MAYBE if they want to raise their personal standards. Do they have the right to? OF COURSE! They have every right to...its a CHOICE to compete with a federation. Will it make a difference as to how FBBS are seen? I honestly doubt it, because when people seen a fetish muscle site they call them bodybuilders whether or not they compete, so the association will still be there.

Femphysiquefan
02-27-2010, 10:09 PM
Just to add some more food-for-thought to the discussion (or fuel on the fire, depending on your POV :p), I came across this TV special concerning sessions over on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/fbbforever

AnglicanBeachParty
02-27-2010, 10:18 PM
'Pros' in tennis, golf, and other quasi-athletic pursuits like bowling actually DO pay their own way.

I am a "sports ignoramus", but I am surprised about this. Are you telling me that all those guys on the PGA tour have day jobs that pay the bills? I thought they all made their living off of golf.

MsGuns
02-27-2010, 10:33 PM
A lot of male competitors do this too...

RDFinders
02-27-2010, 10:33 PM
unfortunately, we live in economic hedonism. i said this on sc.com and no one commented. as long as people are willing to do anything for the almighty dollar, you will have issues. as we are suppose to live in a democratic society, we don't have the right to police what others do. but, as a female involved in competitions, do i want those people who decide to do things that i don't do, think before they act? sure, b/c we are all affected by it. does E's show on female bbing help? No. it is hard to get everyone to unite for a common cause. it will be even harder to get all females who compete in the npc/ifbb to say no to sex-related activity as it helps to pay the bills for some. would i like for some of us to have higher standards of self-respect, mos def. but at the same time, i am for freedom of personal choice. we should act with discretion. i have issues with video vixens. b/c normally they are black women prancing around on camera and i am affected by the choices they make to indulge in such activity to make a living/name for themselves/whatever. the drug issue in the ifbb/npc does impact us. even as a natural competitor, people speculate all the time - drugs present or not and i am not speaking from personal experience.

it would be nice if we lived in a world, were scarcity wasn't an issue and we wouldn't fight/stab/etc each other in order to survive. personally i believe there is enough for everyone to get by and survive/live comfortably, but that doesn't mean everyone needs a bmw with a 3000 sq ft house or larger.

as far as participation in "alternative" activities - there will always be freaks, so to speak. there will be people who desire to see women with clits that look like an infantile to adolescent boy. there will always be people who want to speak and "connect" to women who have large muscles/compete/strong/etc. the big question is how does everyone get satisfied without damaging the other? i have seen videos of women having sex with horses. do i like it, no. do i feel sad for them, yes. just as sad as i do for colette and others. do i feel indirectly impacted, to some extent. as a female i dislike seeing the extreme being brought to one's doorstep to make a buck. is this going to go away, no. as someone is making too much money off the unfortunate situations that lead women to go this route. and i say unfortunate, b/c i don't think any of these women told their guidance counselors they wanted to be dominatrix/porn stars/disfigured so someone could get off. i in no way down anyone who wants to participate in this activity b/c it helps to make the world go round. but it makes my heart bleed that some women choose it for themselves as i think we have more value than what is between our legs.

Tre
02-27-2010, 10:50 PM
I am a "sports ignoramus", but I am surprised about this. Are you telling me that all those guys on the PGA tour have day jobs that pay the bills? I thought they all made their living off of golf.

Many men and women golf for a living, but that doesn't mean that they aren't paying their own costs to participate.

I submit to you the PGA Tour's final money list for 2009:

http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?109

Only 91 men earned $1 million or more on the Tour last year. The fewest number of events played for guys in that group was 12, but most played at least 22 tournaments.

Only 205 (including the first 91) earned $100,000 or more. Of that group, Tom Watson needed only 2 events to get in, but most of the guys were well into the double-digits again.

You've then got another 50 or so pro golfers - and these are PGA Tour pros, not the pros on the Nationwide Tour (the PGA's minor league) - who took home $90,000 or less last year.

Look at Brian Bateman (232nd) - he pocketed $43,000 last year in *25* total events.

You also have to keep in mind that, out of their prize money, these guys generally pay their caddies and coaches a flat percentage.

Sure, there are the Tigers and the Phils who are living the high life, but then there are a bunch of other guys in the same 'pro' club who borrow from their fathers-in-law in order to chase their dreams and yes, some of those guys do have regular jobs which help to finance their pursuit of glory.

I don't make this stuff up, people.

AnglicanBeachParty
02-27-2010, 11:04 PM
Only 205 (including the first 91) earned $100,000 or more. Of that group, Tom Watson needed only 2 events to get in, but most of the guys were well into the double-digits again.

This sounds like evidence on my side, not yours!

I reckon that there are way fewer than 205 bodybuilders that made $100,000 or more the same year.

Which is my point: It is quite possible to make a living from Professional golf. Professional bodybuilding? Not so much.

Musclepapa John
02-27-2010, 11:06 PM
Thanks for that. It makes more sense to deny there is sex for pay in sessions than some of these guys holding up viles of contraband and talking about the specifics of illegal activities on camera. Geez, why not just ask for an indictment or go down and turn yourself in and save the county or feds the money to investigate and prosecute ya? :confused:


Wow. You've done this many times! LOL. This is correct for the non-sexual side of sessions. For the sexual side this is "foreplay", and then sexual acts may take place. To be perfectly honest many women who do sessions and are secretly ashamed will tell you this is all that sessions are. However many do involve sex and most women will deny this. I have found that many pro female bodybuilders deny any type of sexual act. They fear the consequences that may come when competing, and the backlash of their peers. And I don't blame that at all for that.The reason they don't deny sessions is because they can't. It is far to easy to prove they do sessions. However it is much harder to prove what occurs in those sessions.

RDFinders
02-27-2010, 11:24 PM
This sounds like evidence on my side, not yours!

I reckon that there are way fewer than 205 bodybuilders that made $100,000 or more the same year.

Which is my point: It is quite possible to make a living from Professional golf. Professional bodybuilding? Not so much.
and you have to remember that there are some pro golfers that have to hold a 9-5 job b/c they don't have the endorsements. not all pros in the usual sports make it big. there is still a percentage that make it big, it is vastly smaller with bbing.

HammerStrength12
02-27-2010, 11:30 PM
No offense but my only concern is to my kids and family, I could care less what someone else thinks of me or what I do for a living. As a parent one thing I have learned is that people always have something to say no matter what you do. I get it all the time from the other parents at my child's school about my working out and I could care less. I don't live life worrying about what strangers / people who don't matter to me say or think of me.

Thats my point though. I don't give a damn what people think of me either, I wouldn't be involved in this crazy sport if I did lol. But yes, unfortunately the world isn't that simple. Regardless of whether you care or not, other people you care about bear the burden of the decisions we make.

HammerStrength12
02-27-2010, 11:36 PM
A lot of male competitors do this too...


I find it embarrassing that males do this as well

RDFinders
02-27-2010, 11:42 PM
I find it embarrassing that males do this as well
like some of the women here are expressing their embarrassment. sad and unfortunate truth.

MsGuns
02-27-2010, 11:56 PM
I find it embarrassing that males do this as well

I was shocked when I saw some national level and Pros on these sites...
They always come up when you research bodybuilders...they come up b4 the competitors website....wow!


This is how sum make their money since they dont have those fancy contracts...

HammerStrength12
02-27-2010, 11:58 PM
like some of the women here are expressing their embarrassment. sad and unfortunate truth.

Agree. Bodybuilding's about looking good, getting stronger, and feeling better about yourself. Sometimes the desire to compete can make us lose track of the real reasons why we're involved in the sport. No judge is necessary for any of those three things.

barbellbarbie
02-28-2010, 12:11 AM
A lot of male competitors do this too...
very true and Kai is a great example.. it is physically impossible to bring Kai up without that grapefruit shit coming up too.. he has made a very big joke of himself imo and that has got to hurt not oly his chance at sponsorships but at ever being Mr O especially when competing against a good ol american pie boy like cutler

i would be willing to bet that in hind sight that is a regret of his

RDFinders
02-28-2010, 12:25 AM
Agree. Bodybuilding's about looking good, getting stronger, and feeling better about yourself. Sometimes the desire to compete can make us lose track of the real reasons why we're involved in the sport. No judge is necessary for any of those three things.
you are very right about that. i am not sure what drives some people to take these different paths.

cat
02-28-2010, 12:29 AM
"...Furthermore, if the activities were legal then the contests promoters would be charging a vendor fee for those sex workers providing services at their announced host hotels..."

Don't give them any ideas...

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 12:33 AM
very true and Kai is a great example.. it is physically impossible to bring Kai up without that grapefruit shit coming up too.. he has made a very big joke of himself imo and that has got to hurt not oly his chance at sponsorships but at ever being Mr O especially when competing against a good ol american pie boy like cutler

i would be willing to bet that in hind sight that is a regret of his

Nonsense. Kai Greene would not receive the Arnold title and not the Mr O simply because he had fun with a grapefruit. He placed well at the O but has not been Mr O material yet. If he does have the best physique on that day he will receive the title. Dayana Cadeau has been in the sex industry and received the Ms O title years back.

Tre
02-28-2010, 12:35 AM
This sounds like evidence on my side, not yours!

I reckon that there are way fewer than 205 bodybuilders that made $100,000 or more the same year.

Which is my point: It is quite possible to make a living from Professional golf. Professional bodybuilding? Not so much.

Mmm, let me take my point a bit further then.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that, all other costs aside, 200 golfers can earn a living from the sport, which includes prize money, corporate sponsorships, and endorsements.

That means there are 50 guys on the top level of competitive PGA golf who cannot.

You've then got another 160(?) guys on the Nationwide Tour, where the prize money for the typical event is about 1/10th that of the PGA Tour and where the sponsorship opportunities are even less than that.

So, in professional golf, half the pros can earn a living from it, half cannot.

In bodybuilding, there's a far greater disparity - I admit that - but when you consider that the golfing community is what, an estimated 100 times the size of the bodybuilding community, then the fact that more than 2 guys in bodybuilding are earning a living from it means that bodybuilding is slightly ahead of the curve, or at least right in line with golf.

To clarify, even accepting the constant comparisons to other sports, the level of compensation for bodybuilders is right about where it should be.

It's folly to talk about the NFL or NBA in comparison to the IFBB. Those are professional LEAGUES, where TEAMS hire professionals to play for them under contract.

barbellbarbie
02-28-2010, 12:40 AM
Nonsense. Kai Greene would not receive the Arnold title and not the Mr O simply because he had fun with a grapefruit. He placed well at the O but has not been Mr O material yet. If he does have the best physique on that day he will receive the title. Dayana Cadeau has been in the sex industry and received the Ms O title years back.


He very well may be but the fact remains that that shit will forever be associated with him and is usually a punchline to a joke

MsGuns
02-28-2010, 12:48 AM
very true and Kai is a great example.. it is physically impossible to bring Kai up without that grapefruit shit coming up too.. he has made a very big joke of himself imo and that has got to hurt not oly his chance at sponsorships but at ever being Mr O especially when competing against a good ol american pie boy like cutler

i would be willing to bet that in hind sight that is a regret of his

So how did he win the Arnold?
Isnt he sponsored?
I dont think this will hold any of them back...
A few Pros have been busted for drugs and they still WIN BIG shows...

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 12:49 AM
He very well may be but the fact remains that that shit will forever be associated with him and is usually a punchline to a joke

It sure hasn't slowed him or stopped him from getting contracts or winning titles/placing well. And if he ignores the ridicule it affects him in no way at all.

Carolyn Bryant
02-28-2010, 01:18 AM
I do. However wading through this thread past all the garble the true point is if competitive female bodybuilders should get punished for choosing to be in the sex trade. I say no. In fact I think the sex side of FBB may be one of the few things keeping female bodybuilding viable. Take that away and you have a bunch of drugged up gals with no support. People don't like how female bodybuilders look and don't want to see "female" freaks. Only male freaks. Female freaks resemble males. Male freaks resemble "freaky looking males". I'm calling a spade a spade here. The ladies have to tone it down and bring the feminine look. And I don't care if the "face" is pretty. People don't like big muscles on girls.

I need to meet you. Me thinks I might already know ya. This conversation sounds very familar. :no:

Carolyn Bryant
02-28-2010, 01:25 AM
look at it this way....

doing porn or session work, do you tell your parents? have a spouse that supports it? doubt it. i look at it this way, if you dont want certain people to see it or hear about it, dont do it! all my pics my husband and dad can see, proudly.

Yup. I heard Bova's hubby did most of her videos. If that's not's true remember I said that's the word on the street. And Tammy, I know of others who's partners, male and female, are totally down with the lifestyle.

Carolyn Bryant
02-28-2010, 01:54 AM
I am offended at your blatant insult and nothing else. If I truly had a problem with what I did then I would not talk about it and try to hide it. I love what I do and am not ashamed. This is why I defend myself and others, not the opposite. When someone is ashamed of something they hide it and do not discuss it. I respect myself and what I do and that has been obvious from the time I first posted. Many women who do sessions do not and that is why they do not discuss it. Do not try to assume what I am thinking and feeling as you have failed miserably at it.

That would include drug abuse. This is the biggest black eye to our side. Hardcore porn and prostitued sessions make it worse. Few women want to say she uses the same amount of test as a guy. Few acknowledge the toll it takes on their overall health, body, physche, voice, face, hair and skin. Worse, they refuse to acknowledge the destruction their distorted physiques have caused to the support and fanbase. If it wasn't due to a fear of retribution they would participate in the numerous studies and articles on the subject. They don't discuss it. And not simply because it's illegal. They are ashamed. You will hear more about this in my next article. The end justifies the means.

If all the rules were enforced you would have an empty stage, males and females. I object to those who pick on the women and act as though sessions are not prevelant among the men. Sexual acts occur during those sessions, too. Would one of ya'll like to inform us of the ratio?

Ibarramedia
02-28-2010, 02:00 AM
That would include drug abuse. This is the biggest black eye to our side. Hardcore porn and prostitued sessions make it worse. Few women want to say she uses the same amount of test as a guy. Few acknowledge the toll it takes on their overall health, body, physche, voice, face, hair and skin. Worse, they refuse to acknowledge the destruction their distorted physiques have caused to the support and fanbase. If it wasn't due to a fear of retribution they would participate in the numerous studies and articles on the subject. They don't discuss it. And not simply because it's illegal. They are ashamed. You will hear more about this in my next article. The end justifies the means.

If all the rules were enforced you would have an empty stage, males and females. I object to those who pick on the women and act as though sessions are not prevelant among the men. Sexual acts occur during those sessions, too. Would one of ya'll like to inform us of the ratio?


I see you borrowed my 'empty stage' comment. But the thing is, it makes sense....If they were to enforce all the rules, that's what would happen. And when it does, no more $$$.

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 02:09 AM
That would include drug abuse. This is the biggest black eye to our side. Hardcore porn and prostitued sessions make it worse. Few women want to say she uses the same amount of test as a guy. Few acknowledge the toll it takes on their overall health, body, physche, voice, face, hair and skin. Worse, they refuse to acknowledge the destruction their distorted physiques have caused to the support and fanbase. If it wasn't due to a fear of retribution they would participate in the numerous studies and articles on the subject. They don't discuss it. And not simply because it's illegal. They are ashamed. You will hear more about this in my next article. The end justifies the means.

If all the rules were enforced you would have an empty stage, males and females. I object to those who pick on the women and act as though sessions are not prevelant among the men. Sexual acts occur during those sessions, too. Would one of ya'll like to inform us of the ratio?

You are right. I have no problem talking about what I do or my drug abuse. Of course I am in the anonymity of the internet as well. But I will discuss it here. I've abused and although I love my look I can look at myself in the mirror and be realistic about what I've done to myself. I DO look more manly. I DO have darker hair and bad acne on my back. My hands and nose are larger and uglier because of GH use and my voice is much deeper than it once was. I could go on but you know what I've done. I don't mind this though. I've used these things for my benefit. As for an empty stage only temporarily. You get rid of all the drug abusers (and I believe that 99% of female pro bodybuilders don't just use but abuse) and the stage will be empty but the girls that want to remain natural or use mild AAS will eventually start competing because they will have a chance at placing and even winning with a beautiful natural physique. This goes for men too. Bodybuilding would be temporarily impaired but not permanently. Figure (which is pretty much how most natty bodybuilders would look without drugs) is a popular....bodybuilding would then be as well.

Ibarramedia
02-28-2010, 02:16 AM
The interesting thing is I read about figure competitors using too......

Carolyn Bryant
02-28-2010, 02:18 AM
TBS, you may think that SessionGirl claims to be happy with her professional but many of us would say she is comfy with herself. Otherwise she wouldn't be here talking about it as openly as she does. I personally appreciate and applaud her openess and honesty. If more FBBers did this we would be a lot closer to understanding what the hell is going on.

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 02:21 AM
The interesting thing is I read about figure competitors using too......

I'm not saying they don't use. I'm saying that naturally most female bodybuilders could get as big as them and not much bigger. And that is some, not all. AAS goes a LONG way in assisting physiques. Not just a "bit".

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 02:24 AM
TBS, you may think that SessionGirl claims to be happy with her professional but many of us would say she is comfy with herself. Otherwise she wouldn't be here talking about it as openly as she does. I personally appreciate and applaud her openess and honesty. If more FBBers did this we would be a lot closer to understanding what the hell is going on.

I am happy. If I wasn't I would once again put my biology degree to good use. Why do people find it so hard to understand that others may be content and even enjoy having sex/non sex sessions for money? This isn't 1950. It's 2010 and people aren't afraid to talk about sex, come out of the closet, mingle with other races, be friends with the opposite sex, etc.

Ibarramedia
02-28-2010, 02:29 AM
I am happy. If I wasn't I would once again put my biology degree to good use. Why do people find it so hard to understand that others may be content and even enjoy having sex/non sex sessions for money? This isn't 1950. It's 2010 and people aren't afraid to talk about sex, come out of the closet, mingle with other races, be friends with the opposite sex, etc.


Some people like to have things 'either' 'or' but the reality of the situation is that there is a lot of overlap. Sort of like a huge Venn diagram. It's not always about one extreme and another. This way or that way.

Curt James
02-28-2010, 02:34 AM
Only 91 men earned $1 million or more on the Tour last year. The fewest number of events played for guys in that group was 12, but most played at least 22 tournaments.

Only 205 (including the first 91) earned $100,000 or more. Of that group, Tom Watson needed only 2 events to get in, but most of the guys were well into the double-digits again.

You've then got another 50 or so pro golfers - and these are PGA Tour pros, not the pros on the Nationwide Tour (the PGA's minor league) - who took home $90,000 or less last year.

Look at Brian Bateman (232nd) - he pocketed $43,000 last year in *25* total events.(snip)

and yes, some of those guys do have regular jobs which help to finance their pursuit of glory.

I don't make this stuff up, people.

Nice enough salaries, though.

And I suspect - similar to IFBB Pros who have regular jobs in gyms or as personal trainers - many of those golfers hold positions at Golf clubs/as golf instructors.


very true and Kai is a great example.. it is physically impossible to bring Kai up without that grapefruit shit coming up too.. he has made a very big joke of himself imo and that has got to hurt not oly his chance at sponsorships but at ever being Mr O especially when competing against a good ol american pie boy like cutler

i would be willing to bet that in hind sight that is a regret of his

Yeah, the grapefruit is just killing Kai. The regret is overwhelming him would be my bet. :rolleyes:

http://www.ifbbpro.com/wp-content/uploads/image/2009/results/2009arnoldclassic_greene3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/kaigreenemusclemeds.png


Nonsense. Kai Greene (snip) If he does have the best physique on that day he will receive the title. Dayana Cadeau has been in the sex industry and received the Ms O title years back.

Ms. Olympia, Lightweight Class in 2004.

Dayana first appeared on an Olympia stage in 1998. She has competed at the O 10 times and has cracked the top 5 on eight of those occasions. :bowdown:

Dayana Cadeau's Competitive Record:

1995

Canada Cup - IFBB, HeavyWeight, 4th
Canadian Championships - CBBF, HeavyWeight, 6th

1996

Canadian Championships - CBBF, HeavyWeight, 2nd
North American Championships - IFBB, HeavyWeight, 2nd

1997

Canada Cup - IFBB, Overall Winner
Canada Cup - IFBB, HeavyWeight, 1st
Jan Tana Pro Classic - IFBB, 11th

1998

Jan Tana Pro Classic - IFBB, 3rd
Olympia - IFBB, 14th

1999

Pro Extravaganza - IFBB, 9th
Ms International - IFBB, 11th
Jan Tana Pro Classic - IFBB, 9th

2000

Jan Tana Pro Classic - IFBB, LightWeight, 3rd

2001

Ms International - IFBB, LightWeight, 1st
Olympia - IFBB, LightWeight, 3rd

2002

Ms International - IFBB, LightWeight, 2nd
Olympia - IFBB, HeavyWeight, 5th

2003

Ms International - IFBB, LightWeight, 4th
Jan Tana Pro Classic - IFBB, MiddleWeight, 1st
Olympia - IFBB, LightWeight, 2nd

2004

Ms International - IFBB, LightWeight, 1st
Olympia - IFBB, LightWeight, 1st

2005

Olympia - IFBB, Physique, 3rd

2006

Ms International - IFBB, 2nd
Olympia - IFBB, Physique, 2nd

2007

Ms International - IFBB, 6th
Olympia - IFBB, Physique, 2nd

2008

Ms International - IFBB, Physique, 2nd
Olympia - IFBB, Physique, 5th

2009

Ms International - IFBB, Physique, 5th
Olympia - IFBB, Physique, 8th


(snip) It's folly to talk about the NFL or NBA in comparison to the IFBB. Those are professional LEAGUES, where TEAMS hire professionals to play for them under contract.

What, in your opinion, is preventing the IFBB from following suit?


He very well may be but the fact remains that that shit will forever be associated with him and is usually a punchline to a joke

Kai is no joke.


Yup. I heard Bova's hubby did most of her videos. If that's not's true remember I said that's the word on the street. And Tammy, I know of others whose partners, male and female, are totally down with the lifestyle.

And this plays to comfort levels again. Some people are not ashamed or humiliated by sex or sexual activites for hire. Every individual has their own limits. A million years ago, I'm sure I heard good old Dr. Ruth offer her opinion that there should be no limits other than what trust allows between two consenting adults.

Tre
02-28-2010, 03:05 AM
Nice enough salaries, though.

And I suspect - similar to IFBB Pros who have regular jobs in gyms or as personal trainers - many of those golfers hold positions at Golf clubs/as golf instructors.

In pointing up how many events golfers had to compete in to earn their pay, I neglected to talk about how FEW events bodybuilders do. And keep in mind that, to cash, a golfer must typically play 72 holes, which is about 15-16 hours of course time.

For the amount of time spent in competition, bodybuilders are doing quite well.

tammyp
02-28-2010, 06:36 AM
Yup. I heard Bova's hubby did most of her videos. If that's not's true remember I said that's the word on the street. And Tammy, I know of others who's partners, male and female, are totally down with the lifestyle.

you are right. i know one inparticular that does.:confused:

AnglicanBeachParty
02-28-2010, 07:01 AM
It's folly to talk about the NFL or NBA in comparison to the IFBB. Those are professional LEAGUES, where TEAMS hire professionals to play for them under contract.

Yeah (as Curt implied in his response) ... the direction seems clear:

Every major city with its own bodybuilding team!

Anaheim Abs
Boston Biceps
Dallas Deltoids
Georgia Glutes
Houston Hamstrings
Indianapolis Intercostals
LA Lats
Philadelphia Pecs
Rochester Rhomboids
Spokane Erector Spinae
Toronto Triceps

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 07:54 AM
lol, but of course they already thought of it, which is where some of the tension comes from among promoters and ANYONE that works a show that they may be losing money.
This isn't like the Super Bowl wherein the prostitutes show up at the host city and all is well as everyone is fat and happy making big bags of money. These national level NPC shows and IFBB shows are not necessarily huge money makers or even profitable at the end of the day. And everyone comes into town and works the event under the promoters' nose leeching profits off the event without paying/contributing a fee SHOULD be looked at as potentially taking away from the event's success versus contributing to it.


"...Furthermore, if the activities were legal then the contests promoters would be charging a vendor fee for those sex workers providing services at their announced host hotels..."

Don't give them any ideas...

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 07:59 AM
Florida:
-Jacksonville- Team Blade, Premier Physiques Team
-Daytona- Bombshell Fitness Team
-Tampa- Team Body Tech
-Pensacola- Team Unique Physiques
-Miami- Physique World Gym Team, Bodies By Mari Team, Southern Muscle Team

My apologies for the Teams I've missed.



Yeah (as Curt implied in his response) ... the direction seems clear:

Every major city with its own bodybuilding team!

Anaheim Abs
Boston Biceps
Dallas Deltoids
Georgia Glutes
Houston Hamstrings
Indianapolis Intercostals
LA Lats
Philadelphia Pecs
Rochester Rhomboids
Spokane Erector Spinae
Toronto Triceps

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 08:38 AM
Governments typically have all sorts of laws regarding commercial enterprises legal boundaries in protecting their interests and their employment practices including worker protections.

In this process there are allowable "employment restrictions, codes of conduct, ethics codes" and so much more.

While many ballyhoo the rights of sex workers associated with the sport of bodybuilding, fitness, figure, and bikini what about the rights of employers, other employees and their clients interests in relation to what legally is considered a prurient interest?

Example: Would Kai if having an education certification be a good candidate for employment with the Palm Beach Count School System?

Rules of the School Board of Palm Beach County, Florida
Professional Conduct – We are committed to ensuring that our power and authority are used in an appropriate, positive manner that enhances the public interest and trust. Employees should demonstrate conduct that follows generally recognized professional standards. Unethical conduct is any conduct that impairs the ability of any holder of a necessary license, certificate, etc., to function professionally in his or her employment position or a pattern of behavior or conduct that is detrimental to
the health, welfare, discipline, or morals of students or the workplace.

*Accepting outside income in any situation where a reasonable person in the community would conclude that the receipt of the income would be inconsistent, incompatible or in conflict with the employee’s official duties with the school district.
http://www.palmbeach.k12.fl.us/AddisonMizneres/PBCSD_ethics.pdf

Discouraging athletes from being sex workers if they cannot make steady incomes in the sport is a good thing that can benefit not only the sport, but the athletes in pursuit of other endeavors. After what might seem to be a profitable, easy way of life in their twenties, thirties, even forties there needs to be something else in store as fifty and sixty year old sex workers are not likely in high demand. And as this is true sex workers would likely have adversely impacted their ability to meet the minimum standards that most corporations set as professional conduct.




Yeah, the grapefruit is just killing Kai. The regret is overwhelming him would be my bet. :rolleyes:

Kai is no joke.

And this plays to comfort levels again. Some people are not ashamed or humiliated by sex or sexual activites for hire. Every individual has their own limits. A million years ago, I'm sure I heard good old Dr. Ruth offer her opinion that there should be no limits other than what trust allows between two consenting adults.

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 08:57 AM
While some voice support for sex workers in the sport in the process that position actually promotes the associated value and benefit of those services, which if institutionalized and became acceptably synonymous with the sport would have a demoralizing effect on the sport, industry and participants. To institutionalize, make acceptable such activities comes at a cost as one could see if sex workers were openly accepted as school teachers or any other form of employment for that matter.
The thought of one woman doing her tasks efficiently and "ethically" might be trumped by the inefficient worker whose unethical willingness to provide sexual favors advanced her in the company over the more efficient worker. This is the sort of situation you invite when morals and ethics are lacking in organizations or such behavior becomes institutionalized by lax enforcement.

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 10:05 AM
Boiled down to basics if sex work is appropriately acceptable in sport and industry who here is willing to have sex with your boss to get a raise, promotion, or keep their job? If they required you have sex with them once a day, week, month or year what level of prostitution are you willing to commit to in order to keep your job?
If sex work and all its ramifications are acceptable then these are the sorts of choices you need to face if you wish to be successful wherein you have embraced this philosophy. Don't embrace a philosophy for others that you are unwilling to commit yourself to.

HammerStrength12
02-28-2010, 10:18 AM
Boiled down to basics if sex work is appropriately acceptable in sport and industry who here is willing to have sex with your boss to get a raise, promotion, or keep their job? If they required you have sex with them once a day, week, month or year what level of prostitution are you willing to commit to in order to keep your job?
.

Definitely. That's the ultimate form of degradation




i would be willing to bet that in hind sight that is a regret of his

That's another thing. There's ZERO accountability for actions people take today. Isn't there the slightest possibility that you may regret something like that in the future? I HIGHLY doubt there are too many prostitutes out there that don't live a miserable existence, especially once they're done with their "careers." I'm sure they come to eventually regret what it's done to them

HammerStrength12
02-28-2010, 10:25 AM
Both male and female bodybuilders often offer muscle worship sessions for a price in order to supplement their low or nonexistent income from bodybuilding competitions. Although these sessions rarely involve sexual activities, they offer fans--both male and female--the rare chance to meet and touch a muscular man or woman in person.


You gotta be pretty a pretty messed up person to actually dish out money for that. Just f*** go to the gym yourself and train your ass off if you're that desperate to feel a bicep.

MsGuns
02-28-2010, 10:29 AM
You gotta be pretty a pretty messed up person to actually dish out money for that. Just f*** go to the gym yourself and train your ass off if you're that desperate to feel a bicep.

The people that pay to worship the competitors normal dont workout and dont have the desire to.

fitbody
02-28-2010, 10:39 AM
A lot of male competitors do this too...

yes you are right

and this has been going on probably as long as BB has
personally i think even if they were to try to restrict competitors involement with porn
i don't think that it would get any more fans just because of that

this is a very expensive sport and theres not alot of money to be made as far as winning shows
people are doin what they can to make the money they need to do what they need to do
i'm not picking sides or saying whats right or wrong i'm just saying how it is
you choose what you are willing to do and not do
and what type of lifestyle you want to lead

fitbody
02-28-2010, 10:44 AM
i'm curious does anyone who of any other sport that restricts athletes type of work / income ?
especially when the sport is not paying, funding athletes living expenses....

barbellbarbie
02-28-2010, 11:01 AM
yes you are right

and this has been going on probably as long as BB has
personally i think even if they were to try to restrict competitors involement with porn
i don't think that it would get any more fans just because of that


i totally agree with this too actually. ESPECIALLY for FBB. your average person doesnt know anything about body building in general. the only time they hear about this stuff is when some crazy person who happened to be on steroids freaks and kills their family (cough) so to say the least the general outlook on the sport is that the people involved are insane and on tons of chemicals and might "roid rage" on them

inside the sport though women are still screwed.. There is still a very set in stone idea of what a woman should look like and its not a female body builder most times.. hell i know guys that think the figure competitors are too "manly" so porn or not i doubt that women in this sport will ever yield the respect that the men do. It sad but true..

i personally wouldnt do the camming or the sessions or the porn but i dont actually care even remotely if others do as i doubt it actually effects the "image " of female body building which isnt exactly pristine to begin with.

I do however hope (as someone already mentioned) that in 10 years from now or however long.. you can live with your decision. I know personally i would never feel good or right about myself if i had sex with some random guy let alone for money. to each their own but once its done you cant just UNDO it so i hope there is a bit of real life/future consideration and thought put in before you decide to go this direction

Tre
02-28-2010, 11:03 AM
Does anyone here understand what 'employment' means?

When a person signs up to be a member of and compete in the IFBB, he/she does not become an employee of the IFBB. Hell, they're not even a non-employee/independent contractor.

In other words, employment laws do not in any way apply to the member athletes of the IFBB.

SallyAnne
02-28-2010, 11:12 AM
It would have to apply to mens bodybuilding too. And the gay community has a long and deep relationship with mens bodybuilding dating back decades I can't see any rule stopping that happening.

I agree - it would have to apply to both men and women.


My personal take on this is that competitors should be able to do whatever they please. I don't see them making any money competing...

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 11:13 AM
Philosophically, I'm troubled by this thought that if an athlete earns a certain amount of money in a sport only then might the athlete not need to prostitute them self. It sets up the premise that sex work is an appropriate means of sustaining ones competing and thus by extension their placings. Do we really want to normalize and legitimize the linkage of sex work to ones success in the sport? That would seem to then offer an unfair advantage to those unwilling to do sex work to succeed in the sport and industry.



i'm curious does anyone who of any other sport that restricts athletes type of work / income ?
especially when the sport is not paying, funding athletes living expenses....

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 11:23 AM
Meant to write the advantage would be those "willing" to use sex to succeed in the sport and industry.
Someone's willingness to do such work on the street corner is one thing, but if it is legitimized and not restricted from acceptance in a sports federation it opens up the door for getting ahead, by giving,...well you know. If your having sex with a bunch of sports officials helped you earn that good wage would you do it? Should you be able and encouraged to do it as if this is something good for the sport, athletes, and industry?


That would seem to then offer an unfair advantage to those unwilling to do sex work to succeed in the sport and industry.

Carolyn Bryant
02-28-2010, 11:49 AM
you are right. i know one inparticular that does.:confused:

Masino's hubby was her business partner, too. It's more common than you think.

Ibarramedia
02-28-2010, 11:52 AM
You gotta be pretty a pretty messed up person to actually dish out money for that. Just f*** go to the gym yourself and train your ass off if you're that desperate to feel a bicep.

I just described what happens there. I did not say I did those activities myself. I do lift weights. You would be surprised to know that many industry types do this, probably some trainers too. There are fit and strong guys who do this.

HammerStrength12
02-28-2010, 12:12 PM
I just described what happens there. I did not say I did those activities myself. I do lift weights. You would be surprised to know that many industry types do this, probably some trainers too. There are fit and strong guys who do this.

No worries, I wasn't talking about you anyway, I remember reading that you train. All I meant was people who do that in general. Sorry if I offended

Ibarramedia
02-28-2010, 12:31 PM
No worries, I wasn't talking about you anyway, I remember reading that you train. All I meant was people who do that in general. Sorry if I offended

No problem.

The Big Sexy
02-28-2010, 12:54 PM
TBS, you may think that SessionGirl claims to be happy with her professional but many of us would say she is comfy with herself. Otherwise she wouldn't be here talking about it as openly as she does. I personally appreciate and applaud her openess and honesty. If more FBBers did this we would be a lot closer to understanding what the hell is going on.

How open and honest is she really being? I'm sure she is comfortable with all the money she is making from what she is doing - however, it is outside the realm of human behavior and thought to truly feel proud for selling yourself. You can rack it, stack it anyway you like it. Selling sex, sessions or porn for cash - it's selling a piece of you each time you do it. Pretty soon, there isn't much more left of you as a person... so, I guess you could be happy, because you would have forgotten who you really are.

If she was honest - she would have answered my question a few pages back with regards to her name... she's proud of what she does and is happy - yet, hides behind an alias screenname because she fears ridicule? Hmmm....

Curt James
02-28-2010, 12:55 PM
In pointing up how many events golfers had to compete in to earn their pay, I neglected to talk about how FEW events bodybuilders do. And keep in mind that, to cash, a golfer must typically play 72 holes, which is about 15-16 hours of course time.

For the amount of time spent in competition, bodybuilders are doing quite well.

How many IFBB contests are there this season? Of course the IFBB can't match the PGA but certainly there could be more transparency.

If the top female competitor at the Phoenix show can only garner $3K then something's wrong. Why bother promoting a show if you're not making money? Nothing against Stryker, but this is genuinely interesting.


Yeah (as Curt implied in his response) ... the direction seems clear:

Every major city with its own bodybuilding team!

Anaheim Abs
Boston Biceps
Dallas Deltoids
Georgia Glutes
Houston Hamstrings
Indianapolis Intercostals
LA Lats
Philadelphia Pecs
Rochester Rhomboids
Spokane Erector Spinae
Toronto Triceps

lol :D I was thinking of the IFBB as the team and the individual bodybuilders as the players. A union or players association to put together some form of contract that would benefit all.

Pigs will fly, eh? :(

If there were teams then it would be formalized or organized by supplement company. I guess it pretty much is already.

Dymatize, BSN, MuscleTech, Species, Gaspari Nutrition, Lee Priest Nutrition, LG Sciences, All American EFX, Dream Tan, Dorian Yates Nutrition, American Bodybuilding, Animal, EAS, At Large Nutrition, Bill Grant Nutrition, who else?

A million others?


sex workers (snip) sex workers

You keep drilling "sex workers" while I'm arguing that these women (and men) should be able to pursue activities off the stage that will make them some bucks. But why lump a woman posing privately or wrestling with a client in with something you seemingly consider offensive?

Where do you draw the line? An athlete can sell an 8 X 10. An athlete can pose for a picture with a fan. An athlete can shake hands at a show. An athlete may offer personal training in a gym. An athlete (Branch Warren, at one time, as one example) may provide one-on-one training at a private gym. But an athlete may not meet privately with a fan? Many professional bodybuilders offer e-mail consultations. Would that be disallowed or somehow prohibited as the content of those e-mails might become "pornographic"?

Again, who's going to police this endeavor?


I agree - it would have to apply to both men and women.


My personal take on this is that competitors should be able to do whatever they please. I don't see them making any money competing...

This.

How many years have bodybuilders been around? Where are the bodies? These victims? Lots of talk about reputations, negative consequences, etc., but I'm not seeing it.

Craig Titus is not in jail for doing sessions of any kind. Flyin' Ryan was not arrested for doing web cam. Bertil Fox is not incarcerated as a result of his activities as a sex worker. :rolleyes:

AnglicanBeachParty
02-28-2010, 01:03 PM
You keep drilling "sex workers" ...

Pics or GTFO!

barbellbarbie
02-28-2010, 01:09 PM
How open and honest is she really being? I'm sure she is comfortable with all the money she is making from what she is doing - however, it is outside the realm of human behavior and thought to truly feel proud for selling yourself. You can rack it, stack it anyway you like it. Selling sex, sessions or porn for cash - it's selling a piece of you each time you do it. Pretty soon, there isn't much more left of you as a person... so, I guess you could be happy, because you would have forgotten who you really are.

If she was honest - she would have answered my question a few pages back with regards to her name... she's proud of what she does and is happy - yet, hides behind an alias screenname because she fears ridicule? Hmmm....
must spread rep..

Curt James
02-28-2010, 01:10 PM
(snip)If she was honest - she would have answered my question a few pages back with regards to her name... she's proud of what she does and is happy - yet, hides behind an alias screenname because she fears ridicule? Hmmm....

__________________
My Fear is my Only Courage, so I've got to push through - Bob Marley, No Woman, No Cry
"You know you've made it when Getbig has a thread about you..."- Dave Palumbo (TBS Thread 11/11/09)


Curt - you're being a douche bag. lol

Lou, she might fear ridicule, but it's just as likely that she's considering the possibility that she'd have to deal with your negativity.

Look at your signature line for example. SallyAnne offered that as - I'm assuming - a bit of humor. Yet considering your history of ridicule and negative comments, especially related to yours truly and the MOTY thread, well, I find it somehow difficult to believe that you're including that quote in your sig as an affectionate jest.

In fact, I'm often surprised by your - what some might call childish - behavior.

You seem to be attacking this Rx Muscle member. Perhaps I'm alone in that interpretation. Still, I can't quite understand why she deserves your scorn, is it? She has stated her support for this line of work. Perhaps you should simply agree to disagree on this point.

Curt James
02-28-2010, 01:11 PM
Pics or GTFO!

lol :D No pun intended.

barbellbarbie
02-28-2010, 01:14 PM
Lou, she might fear ridicule, but it's just as likely that she's considering the possibility that she'd have to deal with your negativity.

.
a name is not required for this though curt.. i have to agree that she is choosing to be anonymous for reasons other then him using her NAME when he debates this issue..

HammerStrength12
02-28-2010, 01:34 PM
How open and honest is she really being? I'm sure she is comfortable with all the money she is making from what she is doing - however, it is outside the realm of human behavior and thought to truly feel proud for selling yourself. You can rack it, stack it anyway you like it. Selling sex, sessions or porn for cash - it's selling a piece of you each time you do it. Pretty soon, there isn't much more left of you as a person... so, I guess you could be happy, because you would have forgotten who you really are.

If she was honest - she would have answered my question a few pages back with regards to her name... she's proud of what she does and is happy - yet, hides behind an alias screenname because she fears ridicule? Hmmm....

Totally agree

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 01:46 PM
It really is up to the individual if they want to sell sex, but if sports or industries "approve" of such activity then you have to expect to have to get on board and do the same thing if you want to get ahead in those sports and industries. If employers for instance condone selling sex then doesn't it follow that they can demand it from you as a stipulation of employment? Or maybe it isn't written in a contract, but understood that if your coworker can trade sex for good reviews that yours ain't likely to be as good regardless as we aren't going to bother ourselves with morals and ethics? Right Curt? Or do you expect a different standard for the organizations and folks you work with?



You keep drilling "sex workers" while I'm arguing that these women (and men) should be able to pursue activities off the stage that will make them some bucks. But why lump a woman posing privately or wrestling with a client in with something you seemingly consider offensive?

Where do you draw the line?
Again, who's going to police this endeavor?

Tre
02-28-2010, 01:46 PM
How open and honest is she really being? I'm sure she is comfortable with all the money she is making from what she is doing - however, it is outside the realm of human behavior and thought to truly feel proud for selling yourself. You can rack it, stack it anyway you like it. Selling sex, sessions or porn for cash - it's selling a piece of you each time you do it. Pretty soon, there isn't much more left of you as a person... so, I guess you could be happy, because you would have forgotten who you really are.

If she was honest - she would have answered my question a few pages back with regards to her name... she's proud of what she does and is happy - yet, hides behind an alias screenname because she fears ridicule? Hmmm....
Fuck, you're so full of shit.

Allow me to de-shit you a little:

1) you own your sexuality and no one else's

2) you own your happiness and you don't get to define anyone else's

3) she doesn't owe you anything with regards to her identity, whether here online or anywhere else

...

Note, even though I'm addressing you, the same applies to all the other arrogant idiots who feel other people should be living on their terms.

In short, fuck off and mind your own business.

Have a nice day. Gotta love getting a Sunday started with church. :)

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 01:59 PM
Fact is while some people ballyhoo their freedom to do whatever they want with their bodies from selling sex to self mutilation and drug addiction there is a cost to society and the organizations and businesses they are associated with. As with insurance companies assigning risk to various areas of coverage and the circumstances pertinent to their potential liabilities it is wholly appropriate for people in democracy and private organizations to regulate and define what is considered appropriate and yes deviant behavior. There are numerous categories of crime involving the victimization of children and the elderly. It is a crime to swindle people with false guarantees and other sorts of unethical behavior. The use of sex as a salable item is likewise regulated in the same manner as it should be. Related to the sport would it be any surprise that a person willing to have sex with a client for cash would also be willing to trade sex for better opportunities in the sport? There has to be a separation of such things from professional associations in order to maintain credibility.

Curt James
02-28-2010, 02:19 PM
(snip)
1) you own your sexuality and no one else's

2) you own your happiness and you don't get to define anyone else's

3) she doesn't owe you anything with regards to her identity, whether here online or anywhere else

...

Note, even though I'm addressing you, the same applies to all the other(snip)s who feel other people should be living on their terms.

In short(snip) mind your own business.

Have a nice day. Gotta love getting a Sunday started with church. :)

Edited out all the negative words because, hey, people can be very sensitive and it's best not to offend anyone, okay?

Other than that, I agree with your post, Tré, 100%. Just beautiful. Thank you.


It really is up to the individual if they want to sell sex, but if sports or industries "approve" of such activity then you have to expect to have to get on board and do the same thing if you want to get ahead in those sports and industries. If employers for instance condone selling sex then doesn't it follow that they can demand it from you as a stipulation of employment? Or maybe it isn't written in a contract, but understood that if your coworker can trade sex for good reviews that yours ain't likely to be as good regardless as we aren't going to bother ourselves with morals and ethics? Right Curt? Or do you expect a different standard for the organizations and folks you work with?

What is this "maybe" commentary? And you're trying to equate what two consenting adults do with my being faced with a "demand" for sex "as a stipulation of employment?" :confused:

Is that what you're saying here?

Again, you're guessing as to a crime. And, unless the IFBB has some method of looking through walls then they'd be guessing, too.

Who will police this attempt at erasing all these activities you're protesting? Will you be on the task force to set up sting operations at host hotels to ferret out these "offenders"?


Fact (snip)

I believe that's much more likely... opinion.

The Big Sexy
02-28-2010, 02:20 PM
Fuck, you're so full of shit.

Allow me to de-shit you a little:

1) you own your sexuality and no one else's

2) you own your happiness and you don't get to define anyone else's

3) she doesn't owe you anything with regards to her identity, whether here online or anywhere else

...

Note, even though I'm addressing you, the same applies to all the other arrogant idiots who feel other people should be living on their terms.

In short, fuck off and mind your own business.

Have a nice day. Gotta love getting a Sunday started with church. :)

Hey - we all have different views and opinions. Everyone has their "place" in this world. This debate/discussion/whatever is about if porn/sex for money/etc. and whether it is fair for the IFBB to regulate it. All of my comments, my opinions, my statements are bolstering arguments as for why the IFBB can regulate it.

Nevermind that the law offers these sex actors no protection in this matter. They/you can stand on a hilltop saying that your business is no one else's and that you aren't harming anyone, just the same as a guy who owns a bright, red door in a housing development says his door isn't hurting anyone - when, the housing board for that community strictly prohibits it - because it makes the rest of the neighborhood look like shit.

It's my opinion, and not just mine, that these sex sessions, porn sessions, etc. - hurt FBB and make it look like shit. Do FBB get sponsored a lot? No. Do they make money on the sport? Not a lot. Is the fact that FBB can be associated with pay sex sessions hurting athletes that have a viable chance of a sponsorship? Hell yes. And I'm the one being called childish.

You sit on your side of the fence, I'll sit on mine. I will prefer to sit on the side where I can look at the mirror each and everyday knowing that I didn't sell out.

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 03:11 PM
If I didn't do this I still wouldn't give my name on a public forum the second day of membership. BigSexy your argument is laughable at best. If I was a doctor, lawyer, waitress, truck driver, etc, I still wouldn't give out my to people I don't know. And though I've never posted here I've been around for a long time. I would never ever think to post my real name on a board that lets Derek Anthony have free reign. I've met the guy in person more than once and I believe he is a volatile nut-job who can and will explode at any time. Chances are he won't look at this thread as it isn't about him so he won't care. But why take a chance. Even if he wasn't here though, I'm not going to give out my name on the second day no matter what my occupation is. I do have common sense. And not giving out my real name does not mean one bit that I am ashamed of what I do. I am not.

The Big Sexy
02-28-2010, 03:13 PM
If I didn't do this I still wouldn't give my name on a public forum the second day of membership. BigSexy your argument is laughable at best. If I was a doctor, lawyer, waitress, truck driver, etc, I still wouldn't give out my to people I don't know. And though I've never posted here I've been around for a long time. I would never ever think to post my real name on a board that lets Derek Anthony have free reign. I've met the guy in person more than once and I believe he is a volatile nut-job who can and will explode at any time. Chances are he won't look at this thread as it isn't about him so he won't care. But why take a chance. Even if he wasn't here though, I'm not going to give out my name on the second day no matter what my occupation is. I do have common sense. And not giving out my real name does not mean one bit that I am ashamed of what I do. I am not.

So... what you are saying is you aren't giving out your name?

The Big Sexy
02-28-2010, 03:15 PM
And don't blame this on DA... if there is one thing about DA, he's honest and up front no matter what. Sometimes to the point of being too honest - but you can't call him dishonest. I highly doubt he would have any interest in your identity - and the one time he posted someone's private e-mail, he did it on accident by - well - posting a reported post... something he shouldn't have done either - but I digress...

Calling my argument laughable? well... your argument is laughable!!

See... I can say it too.

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 03:16 PM
Why does everybody assume with any stranger that pays. I don't. I've established my business. I haven't had a new client in over 3 years. You get your regulars eventually and have no time to take on new clients. This isn't like an escort service or like a street prostitute. It doesn't work like that. In the beginning Every time I had a new client they had to sign a contract. I had a "bodyguard" outside of where I was each time. He would time me the moment I got paid (I phoned him) and if the session was one hour and I was not out he would phone me immediately and if I did not answer her would bust the door down. That didn't happen once. I don't travel anymore but I once did. I have my own location for where I do my business. Many of you are assuming many things. Ask any questions and I'll be happy to answer openly and honestly.

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 03:19 PM
And don't blame this on DA... if there is one thing about DA, he's honest and up front no matter what. Sometimes to the point of being too honest - but you can't call him dishonest. I highly doubt he would have any interest in your identity - and the one time he posted someone's private e-mail, he did it on accident by - well - posting a reported post... something he shouldn't have done either - but I digress...

Calling my argument laughable? well... your argument is laughable!!

See... I can say it too.

Do you even read my posts? I wouldn't post my name at this point in time regardless. But Derek Anthony is a big reason (and others like him) that makes me extra cautious about posting. And I will say it right now...he is very dishonest in my opinion. I've met him and spent enough time with to the point where I can say that with full confidence he is dishonest. You may think he is great but I do not at all.

Curt James
02-28-2010, 03:23 PM
This debate/discussion/whatever is about if porn/sex for money/etc. and whether it is fair for the IFBB to regulate it.

The question of whether or not restriction of "pornographic videos, pics, session work etc" is "fair" wasn't part of the initial discussion as presented.

Things have spun out in many different directions since that initial question.


Tammy has asked this question and gotten a pretty one-sided "NO" answer elsewhere to:
"do you think the ifbb should .....
have in the contract...no pornographic videos, pics, session work etc? i ask because i think they would be concerned about the image the athletes portay as a rep for the ifbb."

That's a yes or no question with no request for a judgment regarding whether it would be fair or not.

My question, and one I don't believe anyone has tackled, is who is going to police these perceived, imagined, or actual offenses?

cat
02-28-2010, 03:25 PM
Do you even read my posts? I wouldn't post my name at this point in time regardless. But Derek Anthony is a big reason (and others like him) that makes me extra cautious about posting. And I will say it right now...he is very dishonest in my opinion. I've met him and spent enough time with to the point where I can say that with full confidence he is dishonest. You may think he is great but I do not at all.


How did this turn into a 'bash DA' thread...oh brother.....:no:

barbellbarbie
02-28-2010, 03:27 PM
The question of whether or not restriction of "pornographic videos, pics, session work etc" is "fair" wasn't part of the initial discussion as presented.

Things have spun out in many different directions since that initial question.



That's a yes or no question with no request for a judgment regarding whether it would be fair or not.

My question, and one I don't believe anyone has tackled, is who is going to police these perceived, imagined, or actual offenses?

this is a DISCUSSION forum lol there are exactly zero yes or no answers here or this place wouldnt exist..

Curt James
02-28-2010, 03:30 PM
So... what you are saying is you aren't giving out your name?

How many times are you going to bring up this person's name?

But, hey, as long as you're repeating yourself perhaps I'll follow suit...


I for one, consider this a sport... and try to maintain a certain dignity when it comes to things I would expect reflect poorly on it (getting into fights, DUI, murder, G4P porn, etc.)

Are you lumping murder and "G4P porn" together?


And don't blame this on DA... if there is one thing about DA, he's honest and up front no matter what. Sometimes to the point of being too honest - but you can't call him dishonest.

But can you lump him together with murderers?

You state that you believe DA is "honest and up front no matter what." But does he, by your own estimation, Lou, possess that "certain dignity" you referred to earlier in this thread?

I'm just attempting to get a handle on how you judge people.

tammyp
02-28-2010, 03:30 PM
ok..let me ask some questions if that is alright with you:)

since you have regulars, is sex involved with all of them?

how much is a session? with and w/o sex?

how often to you mmet these men? are they married?

how did you build your business? (website? referral?)

ar you not concerned with how your children are effected by this?

and thank you SG. your feedback has kept this thread very interesting.

Curt James
02-28-2010, 03:32 PM
How did this turn into a 'bash DA' thread...oh brother.....:no:

By way of justifying a reluctance to reveal an actual identity. And, yes, in response to TBS' repeated request for that name.

barbellbarbie
02-28-2010, 03:37 PM
curt.. are you a court reporter in your real life hehe if not i believe you missed your calling :D

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 03:43 PM
Thank you for the questions. Sex is NOT involved with all of my clients. Sessions now range between 350 to $1200. I have some clients paying monthly and some paying for individual sessions as well. I charge each client differently. I know all of my clients well. About 60% of them are so close twith me that they buy me and my children Xmas gifts. One client paid full tuition for one semester for my daughter at her first year of university. Some are married but not most. Some of my clients are women and some of my clients are husband/wife teams. Most are single men however. I originally built my business by newspaper and then referal. I've never used internet or had the need to but that may change someday. Of course I'm concerned about my children. That requires a bit of an explanation so I will get to that eventually in a different post with more of a detailed explanation.

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 03:44 PM
By way of justifying a reluctance to reveal an actual identity. And, yes, in response to TBS' repeated request for that name.

I imagine he wants to look me up and use my services actually. (; I don't use my real name for my business either though.

Curt James
02-28-2010, 03:47 PM
this is a DISCUSSION forum lol there are exactly zero yes or no answers here or this place wouldnt exist..

Agreed. But it's important to me that Lou maintains some accuracy in his statements.

And as this discussion has included questions of legality and morality, it's important also to realize that laws vary around the world and that, yes, the IFBB - if I'm not mistaken - is an international organization. The I is not for ice cream, right?

Amsterdam has legalized prostitution.

http://www.amsterdam.info/red-light-district/

Likewise many rural counties in Nevada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada

It's clearly evident, therefore, that the judgment of sex workers possessing a negative impact on people is not a universal opinion.

Curt James
02-28-2010, 03:53 PM
I imagine he wants to look me up and use my services actually. (; I don't use my real name for my business either though.

Oh, I have little doubt that he would look you up. Not sure if he's at all interested in your services, though.

After all, Lou tries to


maintain a certain dignity

Isn't that right, Lou? http://forums.rxmuscle.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 03:59 PM
Oh, I have little doubt that he would look you up. Not sure if he's at all interested in your services, though.

After all, Lou tries to



Isn't that right, Lou? http://forums.rxmuscle.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

LOLLOLOLOL. You're funny Curt James. I've seen your posts many times but this one makes me laugh.

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 04:51 PM
If the IFBB didn't have moral restrictions as they do in their Constitution relative to this subjective sport maybe you could merely give blow jobs sufficient in number along with so-called "full service" as credits toward higher placings. How could there be a task force based on a "guess?" Oh yea, probable cause. The girls masturbating on those full-nude muscle-cam sites are scheduled to be at the hotel doing sessions with regular clients.



What is this "maybe" commentary? And you're trying to equate what two consenting adults do with my being faced with a "demand" for sex "as a stipulation of employment?" :confused:
Is that what you're saying here?
Again, you're guessing as to a crime. And, unless the IFBB has some method of looking through walls then they'd be guessing, too.
Who will police this attempt at erasing all these activities you're protesting? Will you be on the task force to set up sting operations at host hotels to ferret out these "offenders"?
I believe that's much more likely... opinion.

Tre
02-28-2010, 04:59 PM
It's my opinion, and not just mine, that these sex sessions, porn sessions, etc. - hurt FBB and make it look like shit. Do FBB get sponsored a lot? No. Do they make money on the sport? Not a lot. Is the fact that FBB can be associated with pay sex sessions hurting athletes that have a viable chance of a sponsorship? Hell yes. And I'm the one being called childish.

You sit on your side of the fence, I'll sit on mine. I will prefer to sit on the side where I can look at the mirror each and everyday knowing that I didn't sell out.

Ok then, let me outline for you the biggest problem you have:

There is no moral high ground in the world of the IFBB.

Everyone here is either a steroid user, dealer, supporter, etc. or some combination thereof.

The EXACT same arguments you make about the prevalence of commercial sex in the commnunity are said about you as a steroid user by those in the anti-AAS community....which is most of North America.

The difference, of course, is that most bodybuilders' possession and use of AAS is illegal, while porn is not.

In other words, all of you need to check yourselves. Seriously.

I fully support what should be your right to use steroids (I don't know what you have a script for, and won't ask you for that information), but if a person wishes to show off his/her body for cash, it's only fair and reasonable to give them the same support.

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 05:07 PM
The defense from the merchants of smut in this matter is typically you are all on drugs or drug dealers. If you think about it this makes for a perfect sort of blackmail especially if you are a merchant of smut and drugs. Great weapons for trainers as well if they can compromise a client with provided drugs to get them to do sexual things. Let's just say I have a vivid imagination from a youthful interest in High Times magazine and too many episodes of Miami Vice.


Hey - we all have different views and opinions. Everyone has their "place" in this world. This debate/discussion/whatever is about if porn/sex for money/etc. and whether it is fair for the IFBB to regulate it. All of my comments, my opinions, my statements are bolstering arguments as for why the IFBB can regulate it.

Nevermind that the law offers these sex actors no protection in this matter. They/you can stand on a hilltop saying that your business is no one else's and that you aren't harming anyone, just the same as a guy who owns a bright, red door in a housing development says his door isn't hurting anyone - when, the housing board for that community strictly prohibits it - because it makes the rest of the neighborhood look like shit.

It's my opinion, and not just mine, that these sex sessions, porn sessions, etc. - hurt FBB and make it look like shit. Do FBB get sponsored a lot? No. Do they make money on the sport? Not a lot. Is the fact that FBB can be associated with pay sex sessions hurting athletes that have a viable chance of a sponsorship? Hell yes. And I'm the one being called childish.

You sit on your side of the fence, I'll sit on mine. I will prefer to sit on the side where I can look at the mirror each and everyday knowing that I didn't sell out.

The Big Sexy
02-28-2010, 07:43 PM
Ok then, let me outline for you the biggest problem you have:

There is no moral high ground in the world of the IFBB.

Everyone here is either a steroid user, dealer, supporter, etc. or some combination thereof.

The EXACT same arguments you make about the prevalence of commercial sex in the commnunity are said about you as a steroid user by those in the anti-AAS community....which is most of North America.

The difference, of course, is that most bodybuilders' possession and use of AAS is illegal, while porn is not.

In other words, all of you need to check yourselves. Seriously.

I fully support what should be your right to use steroids (I don't know what you have a script for, and won't ask you for that information), but if a person wishes to show off his/her body for cash, it's only fair and reasonable to give them the same support.

You are using steroids to justify porn. You realize this, don't you?

The Big Sexy
02-28-2010, 07:49 PM
I imagine he wants to look me up and use my services actually. (; I don't use my real name for my business either though.

Listen, if you think that sessions, porn, pay for sex, etc. does not negatively affect someone's opinion of the sport, well, then I can honestly say you are a moron and completely out of touch with reality... There is other way to sugar coat this sentiment.

Imagine if all of the women in the WNBA fucked guys for money on the side. They'd be a bigger joke than already are. Or women's gymnastics. Or figure skaters. You call me judgmental... I call you small-minded and selfish.

The Big Sexy
02-28-2010, 08:01 PM
unfortunately, we live in economic hedonism. i said this on sc.com and no one commented. as long as people are willing to do anything for the almighty dollar, you will have issues. as we are suppose to live in a democratic society, we don't have the right to police what others do. but, as a female involved in competitions, do i want those people who decide to do things that i don't do, think before they act? sure, b/c we are all affected by it. does E's show on female bbing help? No. it is hard to get everyone to unite for a common cause. it will be even harder to get all females who compete in the npc/ifbb to say no to sex-related activity as it helps to pay the bills for some. would i like for some of us to have higher standards of self-respect, mos def. but at the same time, i am for freedom of personal choice. we should act with discretion. i have issues with video vixens. b/c normally they are black women prancing around on camera and i am affected by the choices they make to indulge in such activity to make a living/name for themselves/whatever. the drug issue in the ifbb/npc does impact us. even as a natural competitor, people speculate all the time - drugs present or not and i am not speaking from personal experience.

it would be nice if we lived in a world, were scarcity wasn't an issue and we wouldn't fight/stab/etc each other in order to survive. personally i believe there is enough for everyone to get by and survive/live comfortably, but that doesn't mean everyone needs a bmw with a 3000 sq ft house or larger.

as far as participation in "alternative" activities - there will always be freaks, so to speak. there will be people who desire to see women with clits that look like an infantile to adolescent boy. there will always be people who want to speak and "connect" to women who have large muscles/compete/strong/etc. the big question is how does everyone get satisfied without damaging the other? i have seen videos of women having sex with horses. do i like it, no. do i feel sad for them, yes. just as sad as i do for colette and others. do i feel indirectly impacted, to some extent. as a female i dislike seeing the extreme being brought to one's doorstep to make a buck. is this going to go away, no. as someone is making too much money off the unfortunate situations that lead women to go this route. and i say unfortunate, b/c i don't think any of these women told their guidance counselors they wanted to be dominatrix/porn stars/disfigured so someone could get off. i in no way down anyone who wants to participate in this activity b/c it helps to make the world go round. but it makes my heart bleed that some women choose it for themselves as i think we have more value than what is between our legs.

Reps. Well spoken

Aaron Singerman
02-28-2010, 09:06 PM
To answer Tammy's original question: yes... I think it is fair to include a no porn/session clause into any ifbb pro card application. If you want to do porn/sessions don't be a pro.

On a personal note, I have no problem with what anyone does sexually and I feel that prostitution should be legal. But does it look bad on FBBing, certainly.

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 09:21 PM
Listen, if you think that sessions, porn, pay for sex, etc. does not negatively affect someone's opinion of the sport, well, then I can honestly say you are a moron and completely out of touch with reality... There is other way to sugar coat this sentiment.

Imagine if all of the women in the WNBA fucked guys for money on the side. They'd be a bigger joke than already are. Or women's gymnastics. Or figure skaters. You call me judgmental... I call you small-minded and selfish.

So you had to resort to name calling. I knew you would eventually as your arguments are weak and from the heart instead of from logic. How did you get a moderator position? I'm not a competing female bodybuilder. You seem to forget that. I do bodybuild however. There are porn start that figure skate, play basketball, and do gymnastics. Do you believe the same about Kai Greene, Tony Freeman, or Evan Centopani? Have they affected male bodybuilding? Nope. Why don't you lay out my typical day. Week. Month. You have no idea how often I do or what I do. But I'm interested in hearing what you think exactly.

Carolyn Bryant
02-28-2010, 09:45 PM
Fact is while some people ballyhoo their freedom to do whatever they want with their bodies from selling sex to self mutilation and drug addiction there is a cost to society and the organizations and businesses they are associated with. As with insurance companies assigning risk to various areas of coverage and the circumstances pertinent to their potential liabilities it is wholly appropriate for people in democracy and private organizations to regulate and define what is considered appropriate and yes deviant behavior. There are numerous categories of crime involving the victimization of children and the elderly. It is a crime to swindle people with false guarantees and other sorts of unethical behavior. The use of sex as a salable item is likewise regulated in the same manner as it should be. Related to the sport would it be any surprise that a person willing to have sex with a client for cash would also be willing to trade sex for better opportunities in the sport? There has to be a separation of such things from professional associations in order to maintain credibility.


You gone ruffle some feathers with dat shyt right dere.

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 09:45 PM
Although you note you aren't a competing bodybuilder you reference three male bodybuilders as if there activities were some justification for promoting the idea that there should be no clause against porn and sex work in the IFBB. Women make a fraction of what the men do in prize money and sponsorship. Female bodybuilding is the oldest of the women's divisions and many claim it is dying. Might there be a way to better market it than having it so closely associated with the sex industry? There will always be men and women that sell sex, but is there another women's athletic endeavor so closely paired to the sex trade as is the physique sports? I can't think of any.



So you had to resort to name calling. I knew you would eventually as your arguments are weak and from the heart instead of from logic. How did you get a moderator position? I'm not a competing female bodybuilder. You seem to forget that. I do bodybuild however. There are porn start that figure skate, play basketball, and do gymnastics. Do you believe the same about Kai Greene, Tony Freeman, or Evan Centopani? Have they affected male bodybuilding? Nope. Why don't you lay out my typical day. Week. Month. You have no idea how often I do or what I do. But I'm interested in hearing what you think exactly.

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 09:48 PM
You can only polish a turd so much.:hypno:

You gone ruffle some feathers with dat shyt right dere.

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 09:57 PM
I've seen sessions working competitors show up at the host hotels for a long weekend of working appointments in the rooms and never attend the show. As this activity spreads through the figure and bikini ranks will there come a time when the women no longer need to appear on stage and instead prep for their appointments in the various rooms of the host hotel? What a sad day that would be when the extent of women's physique sports is no longer desired for its achievement in the gym and on stage, but rather boils down to their bedroom skills and pleasing some goofy man. Women could have stayed home barefoot and pregnant for that.


So you had to resort to name calling. I knew you would eventually as your arguments are weak and from the heart instead of from logic. How did you get a moderator position? I'm not a competing female bodybuilder. You seem to forget that. I do bodybuild however. There are porn start that figure skate, play basketball, and do gymnastics. Do you believe the same about Kai Greene, Tony Freeman, or Evan Centopani? Have they affected male bodybuilding? Nope. Why don't you lay out my typical day. Week. Month. You have no idea how often I do or what I do. But I'm interested in hearing what you think exactly.

HammerStrength12
02-28-2010, 10:06 PM
So you had to resort to name calling. I knew you would eventually as your arguments are weak and from the heart instead of from logic. How did you get a moderator position? I'm not a competing female bodybuilder. You seem to forget that. I do bodybuild however. There are porn start that figure skate, play basketball, and do gymnastics. Do you believe the same about Kai Greene, Tony Freeman, or Evan Centopani? Have they affected male bodybuilding? Nope. Why don't you lay out my typical day. Week. Month. You have no idea how often I do or what I do. But I'm interested in hearing what you think exactly.

I think he's just stating the fact, I don't think it was too harsh. You may not care what people think about you and your sport, but others do. And by promoting the degrading/sleazy stereotype, you further delegitimize the sport of bodybuilding. Which hurts others. Sure AAS are illegal, but cmon - take any professional sport where steroids are prevalent. Now lets say tons of those athletes financed competition expenses by prostituting themselves. If word got out, the steroids would be a mere afterthough and the "sessions" would ultimately lead to the downfall of the sport. I think he hit the nail on the head with the gymanstics/WNBA example.

Like I said, I love this sport because of what it's supposed to do for you. Improve self esteem, make you stronger and make you perform better in sports. When you negatively impact the image of the sport, you negatively impact other peoples lives as well. For every girl out there thats afraid to strength train because of images projected by the whole "session" thing, that's one person you've robbed of the chance to earn a college sports scholarship, feel better about herself, or w/e else lifting and bodybuilding can help you achieve

Carolyn Bryant
02-28-2010, 10:12 PM
To answer Tammy's original question: yes... I think it is fair to include a no porn/session clause into any ifbb pro card application. If you want to do porn/sessions don't be a pro.

On a personal note, I have no problem with what anyone does sexually and I feel that prostitution should be legal. But does it look bad on FBBing, certainly.

Ditto. Thanks Aaron for summing up how I feel about this entire thread. This is good stuff. Worth talking about in more detail on Off Topic, don't ya think?

So we finally get a woman on board who dares to enlighten us and we are pissing over a real name? Long as she is a real person the name matters nothing in this particular conversation. She should remain anonymous.

I do agree with TBS about the part that at first it seems great because the money or the drive justifies everything. Some people have remorse. However, not everyone has regrets. Adult entertainment is big business. Somebody's gotta do it.

SessionGal
02-28-2010, 10:12 PM
I guess in the end it doesn't matter if you prohibit competitive bodybuilders from sexual oriented related activities. Women like me will keep on doing what we do regardless. Although I'd like to point out I have never done nude photos, posed on a hotel bed or done on interview in a hotel room while I'm maneuvering in and out of sexy poses. The same women that cry about "sessions" have done "sexy" photoshoots and interviews in motels as they are "slinkily moving about" and flexing every now and then. I used to advertise in newspaper and through word of mouth. I've never been on the internet or taken my business to any expos or shows. Many figure, fitness and FBB do sexy photoshoots. It's not actual sex but you find me any other sports where the women pose as provactively as they do for FBB photoshoots. This is your sport ladies. If you want it to continue to be in existence take some action soon. Perhaps you should prohibit "sessions". See what happens.

The Big Sexy
02-28-2010, 10:17 PM
So you had to resort to name calling. I knew you would eventually as your arguments are weak and from the heart instead of from logic. How did you get a moderator position? I'm not a competing female bodybuilder. You seem to forget that. I do bodybuild however. There are porn start that figure skate, play basketball, and do gymnastics. Do you believe the same about Kai Greene, Tony Freeman, or Evan Centopani? Have they affected male bodybuilding? Nope. Why don't you lay out my typical day. Week. Month. You have no idea how often I do or what I do. But I'm interested in hearing what you think exactly.

The Big Sexy... Truth Tella... can't hide underneath your umbrella... no fears... no tears... thanks for keeping the light on.......

barbellbarbie
02-28-2010, 10:20 PM
I think that the whole thing is a moot point.. no matter how anyone feels or how nasty everyone gets to each other it doesn't remotely matter since no one here has control over this situation either way. As of now there is no regulation. People can do what they want and feel is right for them.

Until body building and more specifically female body building is viewed differently on MANY levels it honestly will never get the respect that is deserved anyway. FURTHER proof of this IMO is the addition of bikini.. this is now a fashion/t&a show which i believe even further devalues the entire sport. how can you call this an athletic event when there are chicks on stage that (some not all) look like they have never lifted a weight and just got off their night job as a stripper..


on a side note a friend of mine is a nat level fbb.. she was all set for the USA this last year.. she had to pull out of the show because she fucked up her tricep tendon doing one of these ridiculous sessions.. now i am sorry.. you are either in this to compete or not and when extra curricular activity interferes with the goal there is a re-eval needed i think..

Tre
02-28-2010, 10:51 PM
You are using steroids to justify porn. You realize this, don't you?

Absolutely not.

I'm using steroids to say that no one here - myself included - has the moral authority to condemn anyone else in this arena for the choices they make.

sassy69
02-28-2010, 11:02 PM
Where does something like a Playboy centerfold fall?

The Big Sexy
02-28-2010, 11:11 PM
Where does something like a Playboy centerfold fall?

You mean like when teachers get fired from their jobs because they posed for playboy? Why police officers lose their jobs? like that?

sassy69
02-28-2010, 11:15 PM
You mean like when teachers get fired from their jobs because they posed for playboy? Why police officers lose their jobs? like that?

Yep.


I guess where I'm going with this is that it also starts to hit all of the female physique categories. I think by their nature, the Figure & Bikini girls aren't going to be appealing as much to the muscle fetish crowd (go figure -- not big & hard enough...), but that doesn't exclude them from the rest of the nekkid stuff.

Tre
02-28-2010, 11:29 PM
I think that the whole thing is a moot point.. no matter how anyone feels or how nasty everyone gets to each other it doesn't remotely matter since no one here has control over this situation either way. As of now there is no regulation. People can do what they want and feel is right for them.

Until body building and more specifically female body building is viewed differently on MANY levels it honestly will never get the respect that is deserved anyway. FURTHER proof of this IMO is the addition of bikini.. this is now a fashion/t&a show which i believe even further devalues the entire sport. how can you call this an athletic event when there are chicks on stage that (some not all) look like they have never lifted a weight and just got off their night job as a stripper..

on a side note a friend of mine is a nat level fbb.. she was all set for the USA this last year.. she had to pull out of the show because she fucked up her tricep tendon doing one of these ridiculous sessions.. now i am sorry.. you are either in this to compete or not and when extra curricular activity interferes with the goal there is a re-eval needed i think..

Anyone who fucks up their arm armwrestling or doing anything else in the 'stupid' category...god bless 'em. ;)

Ibarramedia
02-28-2010, 11:30 PM
Yep.


I guess where I'm going with this is that it also starts to hit all of the female physique categories. I think by their nature, the Figure & Bikini girls aren't going to be appealing as much to the muscle fetish crowd (go figure -- not big & hard enough...), but that doesn't exclude them from the rest of the nekkid stuff.

Check this out for FIT/FIG


http://fitnessmanagementgroup.com/

barbellbarbie
02-28-2010, 11:33 PM
Anyone who fucks up their arm armwrestling or doing anything else in the 'stupid' category...god bless 'em. ;)
wasnt ARM wrestling it was on the ground schmoe rangling lol she smashed it on a coffee table if i remember correctly

Tre
02-28-2010, 11:34 PM
You mean like when teachers get fired from their jobs because they posed for playboy? Why police officers lose their jobs? like that?
Nice try with the sensationalism, but again, you're talking about contracted employees vs. ..... ?

You'd be better off saying that the president of your local PTA was removed for posting topless pics on her Myspace page.

Ibarramedia
02-28-2010, 11:34 PM
<Snip>I guess there's all types of sites out there and all types of photographers and all types of competitors. I'm not entirely familiar with everything Awefilms shoots, but I know those guys shoot at shows and do a lot of straight-up posing video work.

I guess I'm confused about how we are classifying things as "porn". For example, I wouldn't call Cinemax a "porn channel", but it does air soft pornography as a certain percentage of its programming. I wouldn't call HBO a "porn channel", but they air that Real Sex series all the time which has a lot of pornography in it and they too, air soft porn on their channels. What percentage of video footage hosted by a site featuring muscular women has to be "pornographic" to qualify...and what does "pornographic" mean?

What about my site, HerBiceps? Is my membership site a porn site? If you shoot with me, does that make you a porn star? LOL...that would be funny since I don't shoot nudes. Or is it just our webcam site, HerBicepscam, that qualifies as a porn site? Was it a porn site last year when we prohibited anything more than topless posing on the cams? Sioux, you suggested JM's topless photos didn't qualify...so I'm assuming we'd be judged by the same criteria.

Or should we look at intent? If the intent is to be sexually appealing, does that qualify as "pornographic"? If so, then isn't that an overly inclusive way to define things...that would swallow up a lot of what most people would never consider "porn".

As for bodybuilders being featured in documentaries, i.e. Lauren Powers, there's an obvious reason for that. Its something different. It stands apart from normal sexual interaction, and its notable that some men would pay $300 an hour to be with her in that way. If a bikini pro is doing the same thing, its less notable...because a bikini competitor is much closer to the norm of what's supposed to be an ideal woman.

As for who gets more creepy emails, well its clearly the average female bodybuilder over the average figure/fitness/bikini girl. But I think that's primarily due to the fact that there are far fewer fbbs active on the scene these days. For ever twenty figure/bikini girls, there's 1-2 female bodybuilders. So of course, the attention paid to them will be more. And especially because there are a lot of obsessed fans who are primarily interested in the more muscular class of women.

The situation is one where there is a lot of very strong fans of female bodybuilding and muscular women who are willing to indulge these fans at whatever level they feel is appropriate from having a website to doing shoots all the way along the continuum to sleeping with them for money. Just like other celebs, bodybuilders can set their own limits and decide to engage with their fans on whatever level they deem in their interests to do so. The great thing about this world is that you can choose to limit your exposure to fans and decline whatever opportunities come your way or you can choose to embrace them to whatever extent you'd like to.
As for dealing with pesty/inappropriate emails or personal contact, its up to you to decide how to deal with these things. You might keep your email private or you might use email filters to prevent the annoyance. You could not accept messages from strangers on facebook, for example...that's what the privacy settings are for. There are any number of steps you can take in that regard. Top known competitors or celebs in any field have to deal with the realities of celebrity, and these are issues you should consider. I know I do.

^ This is a great post by Mike Eckstut in the same thread elswhere.^ Quoted for truth.

barbellbarbie
02-28-2010, 11:35 PM
Nice try with the sensationalism, but again, you're talking about contracted employees vs. ..... ?

You'd be better off saying that the president of your local PTA was removed for posting topless pics on her Myspace page.
or Miss USA being decrowned for posing for Playboy perhaps?

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 11:39 PM
Porn is the fuel for a downward spiral for all the women's divisions as the softer women can be more intensely marketed for the profitable mainstream porn. Many of these paysite operators that were providing predominantly female bodybuilders are now openly promoting their inclusion of the gals from other divisions. The predation may intensify as from a business perspective the softer look will draw more mainstream audiences and profitability. The same as bikini is cynically viewed as a money maker for the federations it may be as well for the porn side of the sport.
Unless women use their influence of numbers to oppose such a porno proliferation the deleterious impacts may be more than you imagine. The addition of bikini in such an environment could serve as a Trojan Horse filled with much more porn and a resultant wasteland of what was once serious women's athletics.

That dramatic enough for ya? lol.;)
Now back to cleaning my guns for my next lingerie shoot.


Yep.
I guess where I'm going with this is that it also starts to hit all of the female physique categories. I think by their nature, the Figure & Bikini girls aren't going to be appealing as much to the muscle fetish crowd (go figure -- not big & hard enough...), but that doesn't exclude them from the rest of the nekkid stuff.

The Big Sexy
02-28-2010, 11:40 PM
Nice try with the sensationalism, but again, you're talking about contracted employees vs. ..... ?

You'd be better off saying that the president of your local PTA was removed for posting topless pics on her Myspace page.

You don't sign a contract with the IFBB when you get your membership card? My bad then... I thought athletes signed something in the form of an agreement.

Tre
02-28-2010, 11:41 PM
or Miss USA being decrowned for posing for Playboy perhaps?

Closer, but those pageant winners are on salary for the year they hold the title.

As employees, the rules are different, even if the 'questionable' activity took place before they actually became Miss-whatever.

sassy69
02-28-2010, 11:43 PM
Porn is the fuel for a downward spiral for all the women's divisions as the softer women can be more intensely marketed for the profitable mainstream porn. Many of these paysite operators that were providing predominantly female bodybuilders are now openly promoting their inclusion of the gals from other divisions. The predation may intensify as from a business perspective the softer look will draw more mainstream audiences and profitability. The same as bikini is cynically viewed as a money maker for the federations it may be as well for the porn side of the sport.
Unless women use their influence of numbers to oppose such a porno proliferation the deleterious impacts may be more than you imagine. The addition of bikini in such an environment could serve as a Trojan Horse filled with much more porn and a resultant wasteland of what was once serious women's athletics.

That dramatic enough for ya? lol.;)


I already have less than hopeful feelings about what Bikini is doing to "serious women's athletics" if you wanted to include figure & BB as "serious women's athletics". As always, I'm not dissing the girls who train for those competitions, but the competitions themselves as I have yet to hear any male say anything about bikini competitors that has anything to do w/ quality of physique.

Pretty much. The arguments "for" or "against" porn activities by competitors within the IFBB - if they enforced it, the entire IFBB would probably not exist - all sexes, all categories. Or a very large % of it.

And any activities while at the amateur level would preclude your ability to actually earn a pro card, even if you did win an overall at a national show.

Tre
02-28-2010, 11:51 PM
You don't sign a contract with the IFBB when you get your membership card? My bad then... I thought athletes signed something in the form of an agreement.
The IFBB sends its member athletes a W-2 or 1099 each year?

Interesting...:rolleyes:

...........

http://americanidolamericanidol.blogspot.com/2008/08/big-brother-10-s-jessie-godderz-did.html

Now, I know this conversation has been focused mainly on the IFBB, but you might wanna take a look at this link:

http://www.repetrope.com/men/products/category.asp?CatID=7

...and then think long and hard about the next words to come out of your collective mouths.

Musclepapa John
02-28-2010, 11:57 PM
In other words all the other ladies owe these gals a lot of thanks, lol. Funny how that works. In other words, when a bodybuilding sessions worker doesn't enter a show, but instead works the hotel rooms the women that actually entered the show should thank the sessions worker as without them they would have no show or sport? hmmm,...How about if one told you that?

Produced Tracy Mason's audio show tonight AUDIO LINK (http://media.libsyn.com/media/pijoehawley/TracyMason_Stanback0210.mp3) with Diana Stanback as her guest. Tracy busts her ass doing PT, her own training, raises her kids and works with her husband whose competing and struggles to do some guest posings and map out a show schedule to participate in as it is expensive. Maybe she should take the easier road and give up much of the PT and let guys rub a dub dub with her at the hotels, etc and enjoy the good life? Diana is struggling financially and hoping to get some manna from heaven or a sponsor to be able to do the NY Pro. Maybe she should start doing sessions? Oh, she can because her ex would screw her over on being able to be with her children if she did anything of that nature.
So I guess the advantage is to the sex workers and Tracy, Diana & yes Tammy P should just be thankful these gals are doing what they do so that there are shows. :yep::no::yep::no: And people think it is crazy to thank the bikini girls, lol.




Pretty much. The arguments "for" or "against" porn activities by competitors within the IFBB - if they enforced it, the entire IFBB would probably not exist - all sexes, all categories. Or a very large % of it.

And any activities while at the amateur level would preclude your ability to actually earn a pro card, even if you did win an overall at a national show.

Musclepapa John
03-01-2010, 12:11 AM
BTW I do get what you are saying, but trying to look at it from another angle. Well 1700 views and a few hundred posts for the thread this weekend. It went well. Happy Monday Sassy Lady:hmn:


I already have less than hopeful feelings about what Bikini is doing to "serious women's athletics" if you wanted to include figure & BB as "serious women's athletics". As always, I'm not dissing the girls who train for those competitions, but the competitions themselves as I have yet to hear any male say anything about bikini competitors that has anything to do w/ quality of physique.

Pretty much. The arguments "for" or "against" porn activities by competitors within the IFBB - if they enforced it, the entire IFBB would probably not exist - all sexes, all categories. Or a very large % of it.

And any activities while at the amateur level would preclude your ability to actually earn a pro card, even if you did win an overall at a national show.

sassy69
03-01-2010, 12:15 AM
I guess my point is that I don't see a clear black & white argument here. Everything that is currently part of physique competition, w/ all its weirdness, is essentially integral to the sport. Regardless of what we'd like it to be - that's the reality.

Ibarramedia
03-01-2010, 12:31 AM
Ibarr, I admire your addition of logic to that thread.

I was going to add that the IFBB should punish women for pornography. Then the IFBB would fail, something I would like to see, because they have been meddling with women's bodybuilding far to much, and judging to many events based on politics and their skewed view on marketing.
I have said it once, and I'll say it again. FBB's shouldn't be on a pedestal just because we admire and support them. I was a cable guy, and I would get hit on by women with the misconception that I was a guy at their house, and in good shape, so those horny housewives or whatever approached me for sex. When I was in uniform as a soldier, same issue, in management, same issue(ever heard the expression women trying to sleep to the top) ect ect. Those things made me uncomfortable, but I also installed cable in city-projects, been in firefights, and had the thread of losing my job due to politics and manipulation. The image of sex was FAR from my concern, and TBH, I would rather have the threat of sex than death. These women need to look around at the real world, and be thankful that they have PORNOGRAPHY as a problem.

Very good points.

sassy69
03-01-2010, 12:42 AM
I was going to add that the IFBB should punish women for pornography. Then the IFBB would fail, something I would like to see, because they have been meddling with women's bodybuilding far to much, and judging to many events based on politics and their skewed view on marketing

Just to keep it equal opportunity, if you want the IFBB to punish women for pornography, everyone should be punished for pornography. Not just women. And not just FBBs.

Curt James
03-01-2010, 12:53 AM
If the IFBB didn't have moral restrictions as they do in their Constitution relative to this subjective sport maybe you could merely give blow jobs sufficient in number along with so-called "full service" as credits toward higher placings. How could there be a task force based on a "guess?" Oh yea, probable cause. The girls masturbating on those full-nude muscle-cam sites are scheduled to be at the hotel doing sessions with regular clients.

If you believe Rory Leidelmeyer, that's what happened at the 1983 Nationals. :hypno:


You are using steroids to justify porn. You realize this, don't you?

Almost as odd as drawing a parallel between murder and "G4P porn"?


I for one, consider this a sport... and try to maintain a certain dignity when it comes to things I would expect reflect poorly on it (getting into fights, DUI, murder, G4P porn, etc.)


So you had to resort to name calling.

SessionGal, Lou would never stoop to something as banal as name cal...

Oh, wait.


BTW - I just want to say - there isn't any animosity between Sean and I - we talked at the Phoenix Pro and it seems he has heard from people that I have it out for him, or that I am starting drama... probably Curt and MsGuns because they are typical shit stirring fucks you know... drama seekers. Anyway - I cleared it up with him that I thought this sort of thing would be good for RX, bring out participation and what not.

My bad. Carry on.


I knew you would eventually as your arguments are weak and from the heart instead of from logic.

He's a passionate fellow! :)


How did you get a moderator position?

Shhh. It's best not to ask questions like that.

tammyp
03-01-2010, 06:09 AM
You don't sign a contract with the IFBB when you get your membership card? My bad then... I thought athletes signed something in the form of an agreement.

yes we do.

Musclepapa John
03-01-2010, 07:58 AM
Brian Moss said in an interview last year that the only part that is truly sport is what occurs on stage, which made a bit of sense. To say that G4P, sessions and associated porn and prostitution are "integral to the sport" surely is problematic on numerous levels.


I guess my point is that I don't see a clear black & white argument here. Everything that is currently part of physique competition, w/ all its weirdness, is essentially integral to the sport. Regardless of what we'd like it to be - that's the reality.

Musclepapa John
03-01-2010, 08:07 AM
Not sure where this post originated from, but to address fbbcrazy's experience did he embrace the opportunity to have sex with those who urged him to and what of the relationship of politics to threats of losing job, manipulation etc that he points to? We are talking about physique sports not firefights yes? In that context I can't imagine why women would be "thankful" that they have pornography and the opportunities for other such things as he described associated with it. Guys complaining about women wanting to have sex with them reminds me of the adage us guys have when some youngster reports having sex with a pretty female teacher. Oh the horrors of child abuse.



Originally Posted by fbbcrazy

Ibarr, I admire your addition of logic to that thread.

I was going to add that the IFBB should punish women for pornography. Then the IFBB would fail, something I would like to see, because they have been meddling with women's bodybuilding far to much, and judging to many events based on politics and their skewed view on marketing.
I have said it once, and I'll say it again. FBB's shouldn't be on a pedestal just because we admire and support them. I was a cable guy, and I would get hit on by women with the misconception that I was a guy at their house, and in good shape, so those horny housewives or whatever approached me for sex. When I was in uniform as a soldier, same issue, in management, same issue(ever heard the expression women trying to sleep to the top) ect ect. Those things made me uncomfortable, but I also installed cable in city-projects, been in firefights, and had the thread of losing my job due to politics and manipulation. The image of sex was FAR from my concern, and TBH, I would rather have the threat of sex than death. These women need to look around at the real world, and be thankful that they have PORNOGRAPHY as a problem.

Very good points.

Musclepapa John
03-01-2010, 08:14 AM
Agreed, and this from my vantage point isn't so much about "punishment" as it is about protection of those men and women that don't want to be a part of that so-called integral element of the sport:p If it were in fact integral and acceptable as such then maybe it should be sanctioned specifically by the sport and listed on the entry forms. Possibly a requirement for certain activities prior to going on stage. Invite the adult industry professionals back stage to mine talent etc.


Just to keep it equal opportunity, if you want the IFBB to punish women for pornography, everyone should be punished for pornography. Not just women. And not just FBBs.

RDFinders
03-01-2010, 09:54 AM
Check this out for FIT/FIG


http://fitnessmanagementgroup.com/
isn't that run by JM Manion or his son?

debbiebramwell
03-01-2010, 09:56 AM
yes we do.

we pay for our pro card each year and send in a contract for a particuliar show.