Drug Testing Question

[joelster]

I was pondering what organizations could do about better catching non-natural athletes within their contests, and I thought of something that we do in the car racing scene that MAY have value.

In certain car racing events there are things called protest fees. Basically, if you feel one of your competitors is cheating, you can pay the protest fee (usually $250), and the tech inspectors will tear down whatever area you think he/she is cheating on right after the race. If the car is indeed illegal, you get your money back, and the person is disqualified. If the car passes, the other person keeps your $250 for their troubles.

Most orgs only do a urinalysis right after a show. A urinalysis only detects certain things, we all know this. Cheaters can go on certain steroids amongst other things and stop use 1.5 weeks out and test 100% clean with a urinalysis. A blood test is much better.

Imagine a protest fee at a bodybuilding show. You think a competitor is cheating so you pay up $250 or whatever and they draw a sample of blood the day of the show. Something like this would deter a cheater in a big way. A positive sample would ban a competitor for 5+ years or whatever the org wants to do.

The only problem is that I have no idea what a blood test actually costs, lol. Maybe it's over a grand, I really don't know. Also, there would be no way for the person paying the fee to get their money back since the money would have to go to acually paying for the test itself. I think that an athlete thats wins a natural show that passes a urinalysis and also a blood test would get a lot of respect.

Anyone know how much a blood test costs? It wouldn't be looking for much, just specific esters of testosterone, etc, etc...

[NATURAL-1987]

AVBG will have a good answer for this. I believe Australia is working on this or already has something similar in place. I hear it is the best way to detect things going back a far distance. However, if your already paying for an organization membership, entry fee into the show, travelling expenses, and a polygraph I don't feel many people would pull out money for a protesting fee. If it is done by the promoter instead of a U/A. I think it would work very well.

[AVBG]

I don't know the cost but I do know for a fact that the INBA in Australia are leading the way with blood testing and also taken on a HGH test through their WADA affliliation..

The best way to catch a drug cheat is to do surprise out of season testing of the people who placed in the top three of the show the prev calandar year. No point testing someone who came 5th in their class.

[AVBG]

I like the idea of the protest fee. If you have nothing to hide, you will have nothing to fear by subjecting yourself to the test.

[joelster]

AVBG will have a good answer for this. I believe Australia is working on this or already has something similar in place. I hear it is the best way to detect things going back a far distance. However, if your already paying for an organization membership, entry fee into the show, travelling expenses, and a polygraph I don't feel many people would pull out money for a protesting fee. If it is done by the promoter instead of a U/A. I think it would work very well.

It all depends on the cost of the blood test. I honestly don't know what it is. I mean, they aren't testing for EVERY compound known to mankind, they are just looking for testosterone based things, so the test shouldn't be as comprehensive as say someone going to the doctor for a check-up. I hear what you are saying for someone who is doing a show with all sorts of expenses and whatnot, but most guys I know that do a show have a support group of at least 10+ people with them. 10 people pitching in $25 sounds easier to do. If I went to a show and saw someone during pre-judging who looked rather suspicious and I had friends competing in that show, I would have NO PROBLEM putting up a few bucks.

[NATURAL-1987]

I don't know the cost but I do know for a fact that the INBA in Australia are leading the way with blood testing and also taken on a HGH test through their WADA affliliation..

The best way to catch a drug cheat is to do surprise out of season testing of the people who placed in the top three of the show the prev calandar year. No point testing someone who came 5th in their class.
Exactly, there has to be a registered testing pool and federation needs to follow through on checking in on the athletes all the time.

[joelster]

I don't know the cost but I do know for a fact that the INBA in Australia are leading the way with blood testing and also taken on a HGH test through their WADA affliliation..

The best way to catch a drug cheat is to do surprise out of season testing of the people who placed in the top three of the show the prev calandar year. No point testing someone who came 5th in their class.
Exactly, there has to be a registered testing pool and federation needs to follow through on checking in on the athletes all the time.

What about for someone who is doing a natty show for the first time? A long time steroid user who has never competed before? I'm talking about local shows not national level shows.

Imagine a disclaimer at the bottom of the entry form for a natural show

*polygraph testing is required prior to entry into the show. Upon request, athletes may be selected for a blood test on the day of the show. Failure to comply will result in immediate disqualification*

[NATURAL-1987]

Honestly, sounds like most natural shows but urine test is switched with blood test. Whatever works is fine in my books.

[Mongdog]

I am not a natty nor will compete as one but have many clients that are. I am curious do natty shows only test overall winners, or class winners? I think top 5 in every class would be ideal but probably expensive. Polys are a waste of time and it would be better to spend that money on urine testing more athletes.

[joelster]

I am not a natty nor will compete as one but have many clients that are. I am curious do natty shows only test overall winners, or class winners? I think top 5 in every class would be ideal but probably expensive. Polys are a waste of time and it would be better to spend that money on urine testing more athletes.

Most local level natty shows do a simple polygraph test beforehand. This is mandantory. The test is usally bullshit anyways. The overall winners who are to be awarded pro cards have to take a urinalysis right after the show. Again this is on a local level.

[Mongdog]

That is shit. So a non natural could beat everyone in their class but as long as they do not win overall, they are good to go. What about the poor bastard that could have took their class but was beaten out by a cheat? I say top 5 in each class gets tested.

[THEVMAN]

I have another suggestion - to me it is quite obvious if drugs are involved at some point. There is a different look - the turkey neck look of the skin, maybe acne, blown blood vessels / varicose veins, hair loss, and of course - MASS - If I am 5' 10", 250 lbs and 3% bf, there is a good likely hood that something un natural has occurred. Yet there are folks with naturally high test levels and lots of discipline, so it is a tough debate. Oh and then there is the BIG BELLY --- I think the Judges can spot a suspect in two seconds. I saw it at this years Team Universe show, but no point in naming names. You will always have liars and cheats, so maybe you have a test based on some profile - but in the end I think there is a great culture in Natural Bodybuilding. We know when there is a cheater among us - usually you cant see much detail in the muscles - just shear SIZE from growing so fast - and even stretch marks. There is always the genetics argument - where some natural folks just grow fast as hell, responding to the right training. Plateaus then growth spurts, etc. So one thing to consider is establishing a cluture for these natural shows - and discuorage them from attending through the way they are judged. Just like some - unmentioned - clubs that judge where size is king, have conditioning be king, and reward it more than size - and if the high/weight ration is way off, be suspect - and judge more harshly. We dont want to be trophy hunters but if we want to get cheaters out - have them go to untested shows and let them know that the Judges will not take kindly to trophy stealing trophy hunters. I know of untested shows that certainly reward drug use based unnatural size - why not do the same for the naturals and encourage Good behavior rather than putting a blind eye to bad behavior. There will always be tests and new ways to get around them - so we can test and I think it is great to do it. But catching someone after the show is too late - the family of the folks that came to the show and saw the natural work hard and lose cant get the moment back from a trophy in the mail later - it is about the experience, not the title or trophy - so it needs to stop by show time, or it is not worth the catching of folks after the fact.

[Mick]

I actually think that currently happens here. At an INBA event I have seen another competitor ask for his fellow competitor to be tested and be told if he was clean he would be up for the costings. I am not sure if its a regulated and implemented program. But i have seen it..??

[Sledge]

I'm not sure about the USA. But here in Australia blood tests are unenforceable. Urine is fine as long as privacy and chain of custody is strictly adhered too. Even making a blood test a condition of entry would not be possible because of the legal implications because you can't make a contract that contravenes Australian law, and a blood test is an invasive medical procedure.

Something else I've always wondered about the federations in Australia naming the people who fail urine tests. This would be a clear violation of the privacy act (they are considered medical information). I often wonder what kind of legal advice these federations get before implementing the rules. An organisation's controlling body would be legally accountable if someone, who's results were released, wanted to push the issue.

Out of season testing would also be hard depending on the country involved. For testers from an organisation to roll up at your home, place of work, private business (gym) and ask for a urine sample is just ludicrous and you would be well within your rights to tell them no and they would not have the right to any ramifications, in fact I think you would have grounds for legal action against the organisation if they expelled you

[Mick]

I'm not sure about the USA. But here in Australia blood tests are unenforceable. Urine is fine as long as privacy and chain of custody is strictly adhered too. Even making a blood test a condition of entry would not be possible because of the legal implications because you can't make a contract that contravenes Australian law, and a blood test is an invasive medical procedure.

Something else I've always wondered about the federations in Australia naming the people who fail urine tests. This would be a clear violation of the privacy act (they are considered medical information). I often wonder what kind of legal advice these federations get before implementing the rules. An organisation's controlling body would be legally accountable if someone, who's results were released, wanted to push the issue.

Out of season testing would also be hard depending on the country involved. For testers from an organisation to roll up at your home, place of work, private business (gym) and ask for a urine sample is just ludicrous and you would be well within your rights to tell them no and they would not have the right to any ramifications, in fact I think you would have grounds for legal action against the organisation if they expelled you

Some good points Sledge..

However in Australias case doesnt ASADA themselves publically announce all violations through the media outlet on their site? Wouldnt then that be a case of breaching of privacy act?

[VinceRKG]

I am applying for the Fire Dept, they test for everything, I am looking at getting some of the online detox deals, do those really work or is there something I can look at getting to clear my body? If I event can....This one says it cleans your system within 4 days.....Thanks guys

[DUKE56]

Since your on the subject of drug testing I have a question. I have to take blood pressure med's and one of them is hydrochlorothiazide. Do I need to stop taking it before I compete in any bb competitions ? If I do how long would you suggest before competition?

[danieleslinger02]

Since your on the subject of drug testing I have a question. I have to take blood pressure med's and one of them is hydrochlorothiazide. Do I need to stop taking it before I compete in any bb competitions ? If I do how long would you suggest before competition?
There is no Sanctioning body that can over ride a Precription from a Medical Physician in the United States. This is mandated by the Surgeon General. Hence why a Baseball player given HGH to heal from an injury can not be suspended or even talked about in public. HIPAA Laws are nothing to mess with. As long as the meds are not prescribed in the manor to not enhance ones performance, but for medical necessity, you are good to go.:yep:

[danieleslinger02]

I am applying for the Fire Dept, they test for everything, I am looking at getting some of the online detox deals, do those really work or is there something I can look at getting to clear my body? If I event can....This one says it cleans your system within 4 days.....Thanks guys
Bro, that detox doesnt work on Blood..... If for urine purposes drink the hell out of Distilled water. You can Dilute your piss to where its unreadable. Old trick when I was in the military.

[Forrest]

I'm not sure about the USA. But here in Australia blood tests are unenforceable. Urine is fine as long as privacy and chain of custody is strictly adhered too. Even making a blood test a condition of entry would not be possible because of the legal implications because you can't make a contract that contravenes Australian law, and a blood test is an invasive medical procedure.

Something else I've always wondered about the federations in Australia naming the people who fail urine tests. This would be a clear violation of the privacy act (they are considered medical information). I often wonder what kind of legal advice these federations get before implementing the rules. An organisation's controlling body would be legally accountable if someone, who's results were released, wanted to push the issue.

Out of season testing would also be hard depending on the country involved. For testers from an organisation to roll up at your home, place of work, private business (gym) and ask for a urine sample is just ludicrous and you would be well within your rights to tell them no and they would not have the right to any ramifications, in fact I think you would have grounds for legal action against the organisation if they expelled you

Interesting points raised. I'm not sure how different it is over in Australia compared to North America. It seems quite simple here, that if you're not willing to submit to an off-season test, you get punted from the organization. Seems fair.

[DUKE56]

There is no Sanctioning body that can over ride a Precription from a Medical Physician in the United States. This is mandated by the Surgeon General. Hence why a Baseball player given HGH to heal from an injury can not be suspended or even talked about in public. HIPAA Laws are nothing to mess with. As long as the meds are not prescribed in the manor to not enhance ones performance, but for medical necessity, you are good to go.:yep:
Thats a load off of my mind.:excited: Thanks for the info.

[THEVMAN]

Can you use Epherida or Novedex XT in the NGA - I dont want to take it 1st and then be messed up - I wish someone had a list of what supplement products are acceptable by which Natural federations. It would make this a lot easier to figure out. Any help would be appreciated.