Some advices

[mr.genetics]

Hey guys. I am thinking about doing a cycle for the first time in June after I rebound from my first show here on April 4th. I am 20 years old and will be 21 by the time I do the cycle (I know it makes no difference, just info). I started my diet at 205lbs around 11% bodyfat, so I expect to get back to the same weight at a slightly lower bodyfat by june, if not heavier. My question is basically this: I want to know what you experienced users think would be the wisest dose and/or drugs for a first time user. I have run pro-hormones 3 years ago when Androtech M1T was available and Bulk Nutrition Superdrol was out. I got along well with those, but after doing research since, I see it unnecessary to use orals as a base drug. I was thinking on doing 5-6 hundred mg of test e/week, deca and/or dbol, mg?, and for a pct arimidex mg? Any input is appreciated. I am 5'8'' and have been training for nearly 5yrs.

[mr.genetics]

If my post is too wordy, I apologize. I just wanted to make sure I got all my facts out.

[Zetawill]

The best thing is trial and error, mix and match compounds, see what you get response off and then change it up. The body sometimes adapts quickly and sometimes slowly.

500mg of Test E or Cyp, 500-600 of Deca and Dbol is a great start. Even though it can have some harsh sides you really might consider Tren as it'll help lean you out solid. Start with acetate to see if you like it and the sides will be less on a shorter acting ester.

Armidex is fine for PCT, keep some clomid around as well. You may find HCG helpful to filling out your bean bag again.

[Johnny Phenomenon]

I'd personally go test cyp or ent at 500mg for 12 weeks, and toss dbol in at 20-30mg ed for the middle 6 weeks. HCG or clomid for PCT. I think that for most rec users test only first cycles are sufficient, but if you are competing I say giver. My only advice is stay away from anadrol and tren on your first cycle, they are too harsh.

[mr.genetics]

I have heard some horror stories on tren, and have been advised countless times not to take it until later on after a few cycles. I have a girlfriend I rather like too hahah, so tren is out. What would be the major benefit of taking test cyp over ent or vise versa?

[Wheels]

I have heard some horror stories on tren, and have been advised countless times not to take it until later on after a few cycles. I have a girlfriend I rather like to hahah, so tren is out. What would be the major benefit of taking test cyp over ent or vise versa?

No difference between cyp and ena other than cyp is 8 day ester, and ena is 7 day ester, iirc.

Also Tren is, I believe, 5 times more potent than testosterone. I know I won't include it in my first cycle. From what I've gathered, I would just run Test by itself, either enan or cyp. Two X weekly injections of 250mg, something like Mon/Thurs.

[mr.genetics]

Alright sounds good. That's basically what I thought, but thought maybe there was something else I didn't know about. So in essence, run 500mg test a week (shots on what days is best?) and the middle 6 weeks run 20-30mg of d bol. For a pct run clomid and hcg.

[mr.genetics]

Also, has anyone ever used Cycle Support by anabolic innovations?

[BoneBz]

monday/thursday works for pinning with a longer ester. For PCT you can run HCG for 2-3 weeks after last shot of test. Followed by Clomid. Some people opt for Nolva over Clomid but it tends to be a matter of personal preference.

[Jacquester]

250mg Test-E or C 2x/wk with 100 or 200mg Deca 2x/wk all for 12wks. I would mix the test and deca in the same shot for less pinning. Adex .5mg 2-3x/wk only if gyno is coming on. No need to wait. Start after your contest to take advantage of the rebound with the extra hormones. You'll be able to eat more at that time without dealing with bodyfat and possibly get better results.


The PCT protocal I used was developed by Dr.s at the Program for Wellness Restoration specifically to recover normal hormonal functioning following steriod therapy.

HCG 2500iu eod for 16days
Clomid 50mg 2x/day for 30days
Novadex 20mg/day for 45days

The hcg seems high because you really have to kick start it and you can only go a short time at that level before it messes up your sensitivity.
Clomid will keep it going after the hcg is up
nova controls the effects of estrogen through out and a short time after until you normalize You could take Adex instead .5mg eod instead and it would be more effective but it's more expensive and the nova will do the job.

This is more than a lot of guys will do but you get to keep more of your gain from your cycle. It's kind of like a cycle after your cycle. You'll feel strong but if you don't tone down your workouts during this recovery period it is easy to get an injury. This is how I messed up my shoulder- not on cycle but while coming down. It might seem like a large investment up front but you're investing in your gains. A good book is William Llewellyn's Anabolics 9th edition.

[chucksm00th]

your gonna grow like a weed regardless of your first cycle. 500mgs of test will do you jsut fine, youll most liekly put on 20-30lbs doing so, (so long as diet is good).

Furthermore, wait 6-8wks after your show to start since your going to grow from your rebound anyway. get what you cna get naturally after the show then start your cycle. You'll pack on some serious weight doing so.

For PCT use Daves Protocol

start PCT 14days after last inj.

2000 iu's every 3rd day for a total of 5 shots
after last hcg shot take 100mg clomid ED for 3 wks (split doses am and pm)
***during entire PCT take .5mg A-dex ED***

[militantmuscle]

Hey guys. I am thinking about doing a cycle for the first time in June after I rebound from my first show here on April 4th. I am 20 years old and will be 21 by the time I do the cycle (I know it makes no difference, just info). I started my diet at 205lbs around 11% bodyfat, so I expect to get back to the same weight at a slightly lower bodyfat by june, if not heavier. My question is basically this: I want to know what you experienced users think would be the wisest dose and/or drugs for a first time user. I have run pro-hormones 3 years ago when Androtech M1T was available and Bulk Nutrition Superdrol was out. I got along well with those, but after doing research since, I see it unnecessary to use orals as a base drug. I was thinking on doing 5-6 hundred mg of test e/week, deca and/or dbol, mg?, and for a pct arimidex mg? Any input is appreciated. I am 5'8'' and have been training for nearly 5yrs.

Your first time, I'd start off test only, or test and deca, or test and dbol. No need to get fancy first time, especially with a bulking cycle.


I'd personally go test cyp or ent at 500mg for 12 weeks, and toss dbol in at 20-30mg ed for the middle 6 weeks. HCG or clomid for PCT. I think that for most rec users test only first cycles are sufficient, but if you are competing I say giver. My only advice is stay away from anadrol and tren on your first cycle, they are too harsh.

You want both HCG and Clomid, because HCG only maintains LH/FSH levels, it doesn't initiate production, like Clomid does.

[BoneBz]

For PCT use Daves Protocol

start PCT 14days after last inj.

2000 iu's every 3rd day for a total of 5 shots
after last hcg shot take 100mg clomid ED for 3 wks (split doses am and pm)
***during entire PCT take .5mg A-dex ED***


That PCT is way aggressive for a guy who is gonna be using a half gram of test IMO.

[mr.genetics]

your gonna grow like a weed regardless of your first cycle. 500mgs of test will do you jsut fine, youll most liekly put on 20-30lbs doing so, (so long as diet is good).

Furthermore, wait 6-8wks after your show to start since your going to grow from your rebound anyway. get what you cna get naturally after the show then start your cycle. You'll pack on some serious weight doing so.

For PCT use Daves Protocol

start PCT 14days after last inj.

2000 iu's every 3rd day for a total of 5 shots
after last hcg shot take 100mg clomid ED for 3 wks (split doses am and pm)
***during entire PCT take .5mg A-dex ED***

Sound advice and really what I was planning for. Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far.

[chucksm00th]

That PCT is way aggressive for a guy who is gonna be using a half gram of test IMO.

You have mentioned in another thread your doing your first cycle so how would you know its too agressive anyway? Ive tried doing the one shot of HCG and other protocols and wasnt happy w/ the results, even when i used 500g of test it works excellent. Im speaking from experience, not from what ive just read or heard.

Once you shut down your natural levels your body doesnt say "hmm my balls feel like 500mgs of test Vs 750mgs of test" they are goin to be shut down regardless and need "Proper PCT" as written above in my previous post. the only thing you can achieve using sub-par levels of PCT is longer down time from natural production which will result in more muscel loss from lack of testoterone, so why would someone want to chance that? I did on a previous experience and found out the hard way.

[BoneBz]

Alright Chuck. I hear where you are coming from, you got years over me. That's fine. I just feel that 10,000IU of HCG in 14 days is a lot for a relatively light cycle. But like you mentioned it was trial and error for you. And we're all open to opinion here. Personally I would do this

Week 1-12 Test E or C 500mg(Monday and Thursday)
Week 13+14 HCG 250IU EOD
Week 15-17 Clomid 100/50/50
Week 18-21 A-dex .5mg EOD (if available)

[mr.genetics]

Alright then it's pretty much been established that Tests E or Cyp is going to be the best choice along with Dbol or Deca in the middle 6 weeks. Most of you have said that HCG will also be beneficial, so that is going on. I was thinking on taxing arimidex because I was told that it doesn't mess with your GH levels like Nolva does. Any truth to this or is it so minute that it wouldn't matter anyway?

[chucksm00th]

Alright then it's pretty much been established that Tests E or Cyp is going to be the best choice along with Dbol or Deca in the middle 6 weeks. Most of you have said that HCG will also be beneficial, so that is going on. I was thinking on taxing arimidex because I was told that it doesn't mess with your GH levels like Nolva does. Any truth to this or is it so minute that it wouldn't matter anyway?

I dont know of the Novladex messing w/ GH levels but i do know that A-dex would be a better choice rather than Novladex for the reason A-dex blocks the aromatase enzyme (which is the primary enzyme in the conversion of testosterone to estrogen). Novladex blocks the estrogen receptor. The a-dex eliminates it from producing estrogen, and the novla merely blocks it. The only downfall is its more expensive however its worth the money.

[chucksm00th]

Alright Chuck. I hear where you are coming from, you got years over me. That's fine. I just feel that 10,000IU of HCG in 14 days is a lot for a relatively light cycle. But like you mentioned it was trial and error for you. And we're all open to opinion here. Personally I would do this

Week 1-12 Test E or C 500mg(Monday and Thursday)
Week 13+14 HCG 250IU EOD
Week 15-17 Clomid 100/50/50
Week 18-21 A-dex .5mg EOD (if available)

I wasn't insinuating "i know more because, ive been doing it longer", because ppl can do shit wrong for years b4 realizing they were making mistakes. I made those mistakes, and the PCT i suggested was from Dave himself, which happens to work perfectly and he recommends those amounts regardless of what you run.

If you dont want to follow that, fine by me. Im not pressuring anyone to do what i suggest, im just speaking from experience and mainly the recommendations i was given by Dave himself.:cool:

[BoneBz]

You seem like an alright dude Chuck. I respect what your saying and your opinion. Lots of people do lots of things differently, and if you ask me that is part of what makes this fun.

[Chris the Swede]

Doing HCG after cycle seems strange to me since it does shut you down. Hcg mimics lh, so your body wont begin producing its own lh, which is what you would strive for post-cycle. I know Dave advocates this and I have the outmost respect for him, he´s wery knowledgable. I just don´t agree on this.
I would do HCG on-cycle , to have the testes in shape then opt for clomid and perhaps nolva post. Bonebz has good advice, I would do it this way though:

Week 1-12 Test E or C 250mg EW, Your first cycle, you don´t need more. Add 200 mg Deca if you feel you need something more.
Week 11 -14 HCG 250IU EOD
Week 15-17 Clomid 100/50/50
Week 18-21 A-dex .5mg EOD

[mr.genetics]

I honestly don't think 250mg of test is going to cut it bro. I am going be around 215 by the time I hit this after my show. Thanks for your input don't get me wrong, I appreciate it and the rest was useful. I just don't think 250mg of test is going to do a whole lot to be honest.

[BoneBz]

The way I have that cycle set up, you are running HCG while the longer ester test is still working in your system. You are still "on" just no longer performing the injections. Again this is just my logic, to each their own.

[Jacquester]

Doing HCG after cycle seems strange to me since it does shut you down. Hcg mimics lh, so your body wont begin producing its own lh, which is what you would strive for post-cycle. I know Dave advocates this and I have the outmost respect for him, he´s wery knowledgable. I just don´t agree on this.
I would do HCG on-cycle , to have the testes in shape then opt for clomid and perhaps nolva post. Bonebz has good advice, I would do it this way though:

Week 1-12 Test E or C 250mg EW, Your first cycle, you don´t need more. Add 200 mg Deca if you feel you need something more.
Week 11 -14 HCG 250IU EOD
Week 15-17 Clomid 100/50/50
Week 18-21 A-dex .5mg EOD

I see your logic here.

From what I've read, if you were trying to start your own production with just Clomid to start producing the LH, that isn't always enough to "awaken" the testes (your body may not produce quite enough LH at first). The HCG at the right amount should kick them awake- allowing your own LH to take over when you remove the HCG. In my previous post the HCG, Clomid and Nova/ Adex is started all at the same time. The logic I see in that is that there is no delay in getting your LH up before the HCG is out- it'll be up and running by that time. And with the Nova/ Adex going the whole time you're Estro. levels will be in check.

It may be overkill but it makes sense to me. Is there logic in this guys?:)

[Jacquester]

The way I have that cycle set up, you are running HCG while the longer ester test is still working in your system. You are still "on" just no longer performing the injections. Again this is just my logic, to each their own.

You're right and I've done this a few time at first. What I've found is that I turn right on and it adds to the T is still have in my system; that's great for overall T levels, but.. the high level keeps influencing your system to shut down so you'll have to take it a little longer. Waiting 2 weeks allows you're overall level to get down so when you turn yourself back on it isn't so much to tell your system to turn off.

[mr.genetics]

Thanks for all the info guys. I think I will take the advice of waiting a period of time afterward to do the HCG. I was talking to a few buddies of mine that have competed for years and they said that's what they do, so I think HCG and Arimidex are going to be staples. Has anyone here used Cycle Support by Anabolic Innovations?

[shredded08]

simple first cycle and you'll fucking grow

test cyp 500 mgs-12 weeks
pct- nolvadex 40/20/20/20

if ya wanna throw in dbol/anadrol the last 4 weeks then go ahead...why people say you shouldnt use anadrol bc its "so harsh" blows my mind....i can take anadrol with little sides except for a little water retention while if i take a low dose of dbol my blood pressure fucking blows up...its trial and error...some ppl react badly to dbol while some react badly to anadrol

[BoneBz]

Well yo, no matter who's advice you take. Or if you use a little of this guys knowledge and a little of that guys. It is good to see that you are taking time to plan things out and not just jump into something blindly. Props for that and good luck with your cycle bro.;)

[mr.genetics]

Thanks again guys. I am taking a little bit of what everyone is saying, researching it some more, reading about all the drugs, and seeing what I think will work best for me. I really appreciate all the advice and if anyone else wants to chime in and give their opinion, please feel free. I am open to all ideas.