Glucophage

[NPCKnight]

Do any of you believe in any protocols using glucophage to bulk? Manipulating ingestion times before meals & intra workout shakes so it can act slightly like slin possibly could?

[TaylorB]

i dont believe it has any good use for a bodybuilder.


except to take before loading up on junk food to limit fat storeage.



it doesnt work on slin receptors like what you will normally hear. the main way in which it acts is just by drastically slowqing down glucose absorption in the dgestive tract

[Jello]

I tried it but didn't notice any real benefits from it.

[BigJD69]

I asked the same ques. back on MD for Dave. it doesn't work like insulin does. I thought it would as well. I have been on it since the summer for my Type2 Diabetes, have noticed some weight loss, mostly fat, but I have also been dieting and doing 1 hr of cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. B4 my cardio sessions I am taking L-Carnitine(Liquid), CLA, Chromium, and Vanadyl Sulfate. Try that combo on top of your bulking agents!

[TaylorB]

i would not use carnitine unless it was an injectable carnitine mixed with insulin........prettty sure its useless (doesnt increase carnitine in muscle) unless used in that fashion

[RazorRipped]

I asked the same ques. back on MD for Dave. it doesn't work like insulin does. I thought it would as well. !


It's best used WITH slin. Pre WO I might add.

[RazorRipped]

This wouldn't heighten the insulin response though, right? I'm guessing you advocate a carb sipping protocol throughout the workout to avoid the hypo feeling onset?

Metformins actions are different than slin. They actually complement one another.

You need to be sipping on some sort of intra workout concoctions. Whether it be a basic carb drink, to something more complex like Milo's cocktail. Or even mine.

[BigJD69]

I have always had good success with L-Carnitine, have never tried the injectable. Is the Injectable worth it???

[RazorRipped]

I have always had good success with L-Carnitine, have never tried the injectable. Is the Injectable worth it???

Both are BS, in my opinion. I tried the injectable about 2 yrs back. Didn't notice a fucking thing, except more holes in my skin.

[RazorRipped]

RR,

Regarding insulin use pre-workout: what dosing protocol is the norm?

The idea behind slin pre WO is for intra workout feedings of muscular tissue. With that said, the dose doesn't need to be that high. You really should only be taking in around 35-40 g of carbs with pre WO meal, so maybe 7-8 iu's tops. Carbs need not be high in the intra workout drink, and carbs PWO can be very limited.

That's how lean gains are accrued.


How come your forum leaders don't know this shit?

[RazorRipped]

Interesting. So then the pwo hypo waves that occur with pwo insulin usage are inevitablely lessened I presume even a few hours pwo. I'm alluding to using Humalog which I know to be your insulin of choice.


By the time your done your PWO meal, the slin shouldn't be active any longer. So you won't get that sleepy feeling PWO

[Bigsteak]

By the time your done your PWO meal, the slin shouldn't be active any longer. So you won't get that sleepy feeling PWO
Razor, can you give an example of a number to shoot for carb wise during the workout(you said high) and what post would be(moderate) if using slin pre? Thx in advance.

[RazorRipped]

Razor, can you give an example of a number to shoot for carb wise during the workout(you said high) and what post would be(moderate) if using slin pre? Thx in advance.

I said need NOT be high

Depends on how much slin you use,and how many carbs you consume with your pre WO meal.

[TaylorB]

most people will use 20 iu pre workout.


razor using metformin with insulin is opretty dangerous... as metformin slows down the guts ability to absorb glucose.. if one starts to go hypo, metformin slows the process of digesting the carbs ingested.. that spells trouble.

[Bigsteak]

I said need NOT be high

Depends on how much slin you use,and how many carbs you consume with your pre WO meal.
My bad i miss read. I usually do 4iu humalog before with my preworkout carb intake of 50g, then about 40g during(gatorade or vitargo mixed with eaa, bcaa, then 50g post(vitargo or dextrose) Should you hit another say 40-50g carbs with ppwo meal? This is the only time I consume carbs during the day is centered around my training. Thx again.

[RazorRipped]

most people will use 20 iu pre workout.


razor using metformin with insulin is opretty dangerous... as metformin slows down the guts ability to absorb glucose.. if one starts to go hypo, metformin slows the process of digesting the carbs ingested.. that spells trouble.

Most in Cali maybe. On the east coast we do things a tad differently.:)

It's all about timing. If you know what you're doing it's very safe. It's about using the right amount of slin with metformin, coupled with the right kind of carbs.

It certainly isn't something newbie should be doing. Hence the reason I'm avoiding giving out EXACT protocols:) I don't even do that on my board

[TaylorB]

the thing with using insulin..... we wana get super phisioligcal levels of slin... or else why take it? and if ya do a bit of research onn the topic.. youll find out that the body can easily release the equivelant of 20iu or more of slin at one tme ( think about dextrose + amino acids drinks... these will have a huge slin release equivelent to more than 20iu humalog)....so takin slin is tricky to talk about..i agree...because an effective dose is pretty fucking high and i dont wanna be responsible for putting anybody in a coma..lol..

[Bigsteak]

Taylor you say 20iu(roughly) in general would you use the rule of what is it like 10g carb per iu? That is a shit load of carbs mang!

[TaylorB]

Taylor you say 20iu(roughly) in general would you use the rule of what is it like 10g carb per iu? That is a shit load of carbs mang!
hey bro. im nt advising anybody ot use any amount. but i do know ive tried that doseage and i know plenty of other dudes use ti too. its the prescribed doseage for pre workout by a top insulin guru. you know who im tALKING ABOUT IF YOU THINK OF WHO IS THE TOP SLIN GURU.

anyway, yeah, 10g per iu to start out. if your doing pre workout, then do more at first. over time you can lower carb intake down as far as you can safely go. carb levels vary from person to person. i know a guy who gets by on 5 g per iu, and another who has to do 20g per iu.



dont worry about getting fat from the carbs with slin, worry about getting fat from fat with slin. do not consume ANY fat ! i suggest just sticking to whey isolate and dextrose.

[RazorRipped]

the thing with using insulin..... we wana get super phisioligcal levels of slin... or else why take it? and if ya do a bit of research onn the topic.. youll find out that the body can easily release the equivelant of 20iu or more of slin at one tme ( think about dextrose + amino acids drinks... these will have a huge slin release equivelent to more than 20iu humalog)....so takin slin is tricky to talk about..i agree...because an effective dose is pretty fucking high and i dont wanna be responsible for putting anybody in a coma..lol..

Well, I'll have to disagree with you. You need not 20 iu's of slin to get a great response. Possibly that is what Milo's has his monsters doing, but the more average BBer doesn't need that amount to push glucose intramuscularly. I use a glucometer on my trainee's to find there sweet spot, so to speak. Contraire to what you might think, I do know a thing or two.

Lastly,you might have you own ways, or simply copy others. And that's all well and fine. Myself, I'm been working with athletes for countless years,and I've developed my own protocol that work great. To you, they might sound unsafe. But again, I think suggesting 20 iu's is far more dangerous that lower dose slin coupled with some metformin, and proper nutrient uptake.

[TaylorB]

yes, to each their own...

i agree lower doses are beneficial , but they just dont get in super physioloigical range..

[NPCKnight]

the mention of 20iu is borderline irresponsible. that being said we are all grown ass men and hopefully smarter than diving into anything like this without knowing WTF is going on. i think you can get into 'super(did you mean SUPRA) physiological' range with less than 20 damn IU's.

Razor are you suggesting that the administration of slin is actually done before the pre workout meal(assuming 1+ hr before any sort of workout) and then the intra workout drink is taken while its still active(during workout) so you dont crash? then post workout meal and all of the carbs in these 3 feeding are off one administration of slin?

[TaylorB]

the mention of 20iu is borderline irresponsible. i guess we are all entitled to our own opinion. may i ask why you think this is iresponsible ?




i think you can get into 'super(did you mean SUPRA) physiological' range with less than 20 damn IU's.
actually you porbably need quite a bit more than 20iu to get above a level of insulin that your body can release on its own.

drinking whey isolate an hour prior to working out the drinking dextrose during your workout will give you your maximum amount of insulin in your blood during your workout...which its quite possible will be equivelant to quite a bit more than 20iu of humalog.

[RazorRipped]

drinking whey isolate an hour prior to working out the drinking dextrose during your workout will give you your maximum amount of insulin in your blood during your workout...which its quite possible will be equivelant to quite a bit more than 20iu of humalog.

Do you have any legitimate medical research to back your claim?

THNX

[militantmuscle]

Talking about insulin without mentioning bodyweight dependent dosages is kind of... not smart.

Not everyone should take 20iu of insulin, especially not at once.

I'd recommend breaking up your dosages, the more the better, at least once upon waking up (ingest a high carb/protein meal) roughly 15 min or less prior to the administration, and then post-workout, so long as the interval is roughly seven hours apart. Also, taking insulin right before bed can potentially put you in a coma, so that is DEFINITELY not advised.

[militantmuscle]

Glucophage (metformin) is great with insulin in a mass phase under proper supervision and maintenance, it increases insulin receptor site sensitivity and actual number of receptors, which would lead to less actual insulin needed to get increased results.

And actually, TaylorB's explanation of why metformin is dangerous is a counter argument against himself. It actually makes insulin usage SAFER.

Glucophage can also be used in unique precontest scenarios to decrease the negative effects dieting has on IGF-1 production endogenously.

[RazorRipped]

We see eye to eye,but you're incorrect about 1 thing. But it's minor really if caution is taken


Glucophage (metformin) is great with insulin in a mass phase under proper supervision and maintenance, it increases insulin receptor site sensitivity and actual number of receptors, which would lead to less actual insulin needed to get increased resultsCorrect
And actually, TaylorB's explanation of why metformin is dangerous is a counter argument against himself. It actually makes insulin usage SAFERExactly
Glucophage can also be used in unique precontest scenarios to decrease the negative effects dieting has on IGF-1 production endogenouslyHere's where you're off. Metformin has been shown in medical studies to lower IGF while its in its active state. This is why I'm an advocate of metformin pre WO. There's a precise time line to use Metformin pre WO, even before introdcing slin.
HGH counters this issue as well
~RR

[TaylorB]

Glucophage (metformin) is great with insulin in a mass phase under proper supervision and maintenance, it increases insulin receptor site sensitivity and actual number of receptors, which would lead to less actual insulin needed to get increased results.

And actually, TaylorB's explanation of why metformin is dangerous is a counter argument against himself. It actually makes insulin usage SAFER.

Glucophage can also be used in unique precontest scenarios to decrease the negative effects dieting has on IGF-1 production endogenously.
where are you getting these "facts" about metformin ? :confused:

[Bigsteak]

hey bro. im nt advising anybody ot use any amount. but i do know ive tried that doseage and i know plenty of other dudes use ti too. its the prescribed doseage for pre workout by a top insulin guru. you know who im tALKING ABOUT IF YOU THINK OF WHO IS THE TOP SLIN GURU.

anyway, yeah, 10g per iu to start out. if your doing pre workout, then do more at first. over time you can lower carb intake down as far as you can safely go. carb levels vary from person to person. i know a guy who gets by on 5 g per iu, and another who has to do 20g per iu.



dont worry about getting fat from the carbs with slin, worry about getting fat from fat with slin. do not consume ANY fat ! i suggest just sticking to whey isolate and dextrose.
I understand you are not recommending any amount of slin I'm grown and can make my decisions based on the info you provide. So hit the whey iso and dextrose, shoot slin number depending on individual, sip intra workout drink then finish with whey iso and dextrose again, followed with maybe a solid meal containing no fat? Am I on the right track here? Thx for the help.

[TaylorB]

the protocol you layed out is exactly how I do it when I do it, except I pin first, then startto sip on a shake, one big shake that last up to my trinaing, through my training, and a bit at the end of training. about 200-300g total carbs.

[RazorRipped]

.which its quite possible will be equivelant to quite a bit more than 20iu of humalog.

Do you have any legitimate medical research to back your claim?

THNX

[TaylorB]

Do you have any legitimate medical research to back your claim?

THNX
i didnt reaspond because you know as well as i do that no studies are done on this subject in relation to healthy individuals using exogenous insulin.

[Bigsteak]

the protocol you layed out is exactly how I do it when I do it, except I pin first, then startto sip on a shake, one big shake that last up to my trinaing, through my training, and a bit at the end of training. about 200-300g total carbs.
Interesting, so if your carbs are 200-300g in one big shake what is the protein at?

[militantmuscle]

where are you getting these "facts" about metformin ? :confused:



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^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-pmid16219720_31-0) Vigersky RA, Filmore-Nassar A, Glass AR (2006). "Thyrotropin suppression by metformin". J Clin Endocrinol Metab 91 (1): 225–7. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1210/jc.2005-1210 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1210%2Fjc.2005-1210). PMID 16219720 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16219720).
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^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-63g_33-0) Gjedde S, Christiansen A, Pedersen SB, Rungby J (2003). "Survival following a metformin overdose of 63 g: a case report". Pharmacol. Toxicol. 93 (2): 98–9. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1034/j.1600-0773.2003.930207.x (http://dx.doi.org/10.1034%2Fj.1600-0773.2003.930207.x). PMID 12899672 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12899672).
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^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-hd_35-0) Guo PY, Storsley LJ, Finkle SN (2006). "Severe lactic acidosis treated with prolonged hemodialysis: recovery after massive overdoses of metformin". Seminars in dialysis 19 (1): 80–3. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1111/j.1525-139X.2006.00123.x (http://dx.doi.org/10.1111%2Fj.1525-139X.2006.00123.x). PMID 16423187 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16423187).
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-Kirpichnikov_36-0) Kirpichnikov D, McFarlane SI, Sowers JR (2002). "Metformin: an update (http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/137/1/25.pdf)" (PDF). Ann Intern Med 137 (1): 25–33. PMID 12093242 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12093242). http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/137/1/25.pdf. Retrieved on 30 December 2008.
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^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-38) Towler MC, Hardie DG (2007). "AMP-activated protein kinase in metabolic control and insulin signaling (http://circres.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/100/3/328)". Circ Res 100 (3): 328–41. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1161/01.RES.0000256090.42690.05 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1161%2F01.RES.0000256090.42690.05). PMID 17307971 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17307971). http://circres.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/100/3/328.
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-Zhou_39-0) Zhou G, Myers R, Li Y, Chen Y, Shen X, Fenyk-Melody J, Wu M, Ventre J, Doebber T, Fujii N, Musi N, Hirshman M, Goodyear L, Moller D (2001). "Role of AMP-activated protein kinase in mechanism of metformin action (http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/108/8/1167#SEC4)". J Clin Invest 108 (8): 1167–74. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1172/JCI13505 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1172%2FJCI13505). PMID 11602624 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11602624). http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/108/8/1167#SEC4.
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-40) Kim YD, Park KG, Lee YS, et al. (2008). "Metformin inhibits hepatic gluconeogenesis through AMP-activated protein kinase-dependent regulation of the orphan nuclear receptor SHP (http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/57/2/306)". Diabetes 57 (2): 306–14. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.2337/db07-0381 (http://dx.doi.org/10.2337%2Fdb07-0381). PMID 17909097 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17909097). http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/57/2/306.
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-41) Zhang L, He H, Balschi JA (2007). "Metformin and phenformin activate AMP-activated protein kinase in the heart by increasing cytosolic AMP concentration (http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/293/1/H457)". Am J Physiol Heart Circ Physiol 293 (1): H457–66. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1152/ajpheart.00002.2007 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1152%2Fajpheart.00002.2007). PMID 17369473 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17369473). http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/293/1/H457.
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-42) Cheryl A. Collier,1 Clinton R. Bruce,1 Angela C. Smith,1 Gary Lopaschuk,2 and David J. Dyck1 (2006). "Metformin counters the insulin-induced suppression of fatty acid oxidation and stimulation of triacylglycerol storage in rodent skeletal muscle". Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 291 (1): E182-E189. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):http://sfx.hul.harvard.edu/sfx_local?__char_set=utf8&id=doi:10.1152/ajpendo.00272.2005&sid=libx%3Ahul.harvard&genre=article (http://dx.doi.org/http%3A%2F%2Fsfx.hul.harvard.edu%2Fsfx_local%3F__c har_set%3Dutf8%26id%3Ddoi%3A10.1152%2Fajpendo.0027 2.2005%26sid%3Dlibx%253Ahul.harvard%26genre%3Darti cle).
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-43) Bailey CJ, Turner RC (1996). "Metformin". N Engl J Med 334 (9): 574–9. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1056/NEJM199602293340906 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1056%2FNEJM199602293340906). PMID 8569826 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8569826).
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^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-45) Saeedi R, Parsons HL, Wambolt RB, et al. (2008). "Metabolic actions of metformin in the heart can occur by AMPK-independent mechanisms". Am J Physiol Heart Circ Physiol 294 (6): H2497–506. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1152/ajpheart.00873.2007 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1152%2Fajpheart.00873.2007). PMID 18375721 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18375721).
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-Heller_46-0) Heller, Jacqueline B. (2007). "Metformin overdose in dogs and cats (http://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/vetm0407_231-234.pdf?docID=11061)". Veterinary Medicine (April): 231–233. http://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/vetm0407_231-234.pdf?docID=11061.
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^ a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-RxList_48-0) b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#cite_ref-RxList_48-1) "Glucophage Side Effects & Drug Interactions" (http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/metformi_ad.htm). RxList.com. 2007. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/metformi_ad.htm. Retrieved on 2007-11-19.
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ENJOY:)

[TaylorB]

Interesting, so if your carbs are 200-300g in one big shake what is the protein at?
two scoops of a true protien mix one hour prior to trainin, then two scoops of the same mix while training. my mix is 60%whey isolate+20%leucine+%20creatine monohydrate.

[militantmuscle]

We see eye to eye,but you're incorrect about 1 thing. But it's minor really if caution is taken

Razor,

Glucophage can be used while dieting to decrease glucose production in the liver and glucose absorption by the intestines, which brings about an increase in the body's dependence upon fat stores for energy requirements and simultaneously increases insulin secretion by the pancreas. So since insulin cell receptor sites become more sensitized, and since there is an existing cross-over stimulation between IGF-1 and insulin (and their opposing receptor sites) wouldn't that increase lean mass retention? And if yes, that would mean it would buffer the negative effects metaformin has on IGF-1 production, no?

I just want to make sure, because if I am wrong I do not want to be prescribing something incorrect to my clients that could detriment their gains or their health.

Thanks man!

[Bigsteak]

two scoops of a true protien mix one hour prior to trainin, then two scoops of the same mix while training. my mix is 60%whey isolate+20%leucine+%20creatine monohydrate.
Using dextrose as the carb source to cover the 200-300g?

[RazorRipped]

Razor,

Glucophage can be used while dieting to decrease glucose production in the liver and glucose absorption by the intestines, which brings about an increase in the body's dependence upon fat stores for energy requirements and simultaneously increases insulin secretion by the pancreas. So since insulin cell receptor sites become more sensitized, and since there is an existing cross-over stimulation between IGF-1 and insulin (and their opposing receptor sites) wouldn't that increase lean mass retention? And if yes, that would mean it would buffer the negative effects metformin has on IGF-1 production, no?

I just want to make sure, because if I am wrong I do not want to be prescribing something incorrect to my clients that could detriment their gains or their health.

Thanks man!

Metformin chronically activates AMP-activated kinase (AMPK). AMPK slows liver glucose output by down-regulating expression of glucose-6-phosphatase and phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase; in skeletal muscle, it boosts the efficiency of insulin-stimulated glucose uptake by increasing expression of GLUT-4. These effects mandate a down-regulation of insulin secretion.

The resulting reduction of liver insulin activity will suppress liver production of IGF-I while boosting that of IGFBP-1, thereby decreasing plasma free IGF-I.

Stimulation of AMPK with Metformin also interferes with the Ras–Raf–MEK–ERK pathway of IGF-I signaling by inhibiting the ability of IGF-I to activate ras and its downstream targets.

Stimulation of AMPK with Metformin also blocks the ability of the PI3K-Akt pathway to activate mTOR.

Since the Ras–Raf–MEK–ERK cascade, as well as mTOR and its downstream targets, are key mediators of IGF-I’s ability to increase hypertrophy a systemic increase in AMPK activity as brought about by Metformin will hinder the potential for hypertrophy not only by diminishing plasma levels of insulin and free IGF-I, but also by intervening in the post-receptor intracellular pathways mediated events which bring about these bodybuilding effects.

Attached is a chart to give you a better understanding of my scientific mumbo jumbo ( which I hate using, but was necessary here).

My point (in laymens terms) is metformin is fine for dieting, and even bulking. While metformin is active, you aren't in a 100% anabolic atmosphere.

[RazorRipped]

i didnt reaspond because you know as well as i do that no studies are done on this subject in relation to healthy individuals using exogenous insulin.

Then why are you making outrageous statements in regards to insulin?

[BigJD69]

I am currently taking 500 mgs of Glucophage 2x a day. My Nutritionist that I see for my Type 2 Diabetes recommended to me to take 1 tab with dinner and the other at bedtime. Is there another way of me taking it that would aide me in more efficent fat burning? I currently do 1 hr of cardio first thing in the am upon waking(empty stomach)and train with weights at 3pm. I apologize if I have this all messed up, I have never truly understood how the bennefits of Insulin and or poss. Glucophage in aiding in fat loss. PLEASE RazorRipped you sound like you know what you are talking about I would appreciate any help.

[militantmuscle]

Metformin chronically activates AMP-activated kinase (AMPK). AMPK slows liver glucose output by down-regulating expression of glucose-6-phosphatase and phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase; in skeletal muscle, it boosts the efficiency of insulin-stimulated glucose uptake by increasing expression of GLUT-4. These effects mandate a down-regulation of insulin secretion.

The resulting reduction of liver insulin activity will suppress liver production of IGF-I while boosting that of IGFBP-1, thereby decreasing plasma free IGF-I.

Stimulation of AMPK with Metformin also interferes with the Ras–Raf–MEK–ERK pathway of IGF-I signaling by inhibiting the ability of IGF-I to activate ras and its downstream targets.

Stimulation of AMPK with Metformin also blocks the ability of the PI3K-Akt pathway to activate mTOR.

Since the Ras–Raf–MEK–ERK cascade, as well as mTOR and its downstream targets, are key mediators of IGF-I’s ability to increase hypertrophy a systemic increase in AMPK activity as brought about by Metformin will hinder the potential for hypertrophy not only by diminishing plasma levels of insulin and free IGF-I, but also by intervening in the post-receptor intracellular pathways mediated events which bring about these bodybuilding effects.

Attached is a chart to give you a better understanding of my scientific mumbo jumbo ( which I hate using, but was necessary here).

My point (in laymens terms) is metformin is fine for dieting, and even bulking. While metformin is active, you aren't in a 100% anabolic atmosphere.

I am going to try to break this down this weekend and verify what you told me, thanks for the explanation!

[TaylorB]

Using dextrose as the carb source to cover the 200-300g?
yeah..used malto in the past but dextrose is sweeter so i prefer it

[TaylorB]

Then why are you making outrageous statements in regards to insulin?
could you direct me to the outrageous statements i made ?

[RazorRipped]

could you direct me to the outrageous statements i made ?


Read back in the thread.

You've stated more than once 20 iu's is needed to get into the Supraphysiological range. Well, how do you know without concrete evidence?:)

Where's you clinical proof to the comment below?:)

"dextrose + amino acids drinks... these will have a huge slin release equivelent to more than 20iu humalog".


How come you haven't adressed Elite316's post in regards to metformin? Don't answer that. We all know why.:)

[TaylorB]

Read back in the thread.

You've stated more than once 20 iu's is needed to get into the Supraphysiological range. Well, how do you know without concrete evidence?:)

Where's you clinical proof to the comment below?:)

"dextrose + amino acids drinks... these will have a huge slin release equivelent to more than 20iu humalog".


How come you haven't adressed Elite316's post in regards to metformin? Don't answer that. We all know why.:)

i havent bother to read his links and i dont care to prove physiological equivelants of insulin...

in a scenario where i am mistaken about the 20 iu thing... whats outrageous about that anyway ? thats still what is used by pro's under guidance... and thats under guidance, what they do on their own time probably exceeds that.... have you ever tried that amount ?

[BigJD69]

Should Glucophage be taken prior to cardio if one is looking to burn fat????

[TaylorB]

You would have to look at peak plasma levels and total insulin released (area under curve etc) and then check how something like Humalog compares to endo insulin (since it's like an analog).


if somebody wants to do this, id appreciate it. im sure others would like to know. i dont care if i was wrong.

[RazorRipped]

.............



i havent bother to read his links and i dont care to prove physiological equivelants of insulin... You've been challenged and shown your statements are false in regards to metformin.
That's why you haven't responded. You've been bobbing and weaving throughout this whole thread making erroneous claims.



in a scenario where i am mistaken about the 20 iu thing... whats outrageous about that anyway ? What's outrageous is your claim that 20 iu's is needed for optimal Supraphysiological levels

~RR

[RazorRipped]

Should Glucophage be taken prior to cardio if one is looking to burn fat????

I really think you need to step back and do some research on what metformin actually is,and does.

But to answer your question. No

[BigJD69]

Thanks Really appreciate that, Didn't mean to put you out!!!

[TaylorB]

well since i dont care t read the links and i dont care if what i said in regards to metformin wasnt absolutely true than ill accept that the links prove me 'wrong'... im here to learn and share like everybody else... i like to be wrong..it means fi learned soemthing

anyway

i didnt say 20iu was optimal... i think i claimed the body could release the equivelant of 20iu on its own... and that 20iu isnt even above phisiological levels.. above i posted directions t how one could figure out thebodyes capacity in relation to humalog... that would give us a definitive answer to what is above and below the bodies capability... and what would 'optimal' insulin dose be anyway ? ... i mean.. the most effective? is that 5iu?10iu?20iu? 50iu? youd have to find a way to figure that out in order to say whats opitmal

another issue is whether or not the body is releasing its own natural insulin in response to the carb/protein drinks when your using insulin.... if so, then even 1iu would be bumping your total insulin levels above what they would normally be...

[militantmuscle]

well since i dont care t read the links and i dont care if what i said in regards to metformin wasnt absolutely true than ill accept that the links prove me 'wrong'... im here to learn and share like everybody else... i like to be wrong..it means fi learned soemthing

anyway

i didnt say 20iu was optimal... i think i claimed the body could release the equivelant of 20iu on its own... and that 20iu isnt even above phisiological levels.. above i posted directions t how one could figure out thebodyes capacity in relation to humalog... that would give us a definitive answer to what is above and below the bodies capability... and what would 'optimal' insulin dose be anyway ? ... i mean.. the most effective? is that 5iu?10iu?20iu? 50iu? youd have to find a way to figure that out in order to say whats opitmal

another issue is whether or not the body is releasing its own natural insulin in response to the carb/protein drinks when your using insulin.... if so, then even 1iu would be bumping your total insulin levels above what they would normally be...


TaylorB,

My goal wasn't trying to prove you wrong, I wanted information to be clear for the members, because insulin is a tricky subject.

Usually, it's not about right or wrong, not that simple, more like what is optimal, benefit/cost ratio, individual's preferences, etc.

Big props to you for admitting what you did, and I challenge and encourage you to post more often, and don't be afraid to explain your theories and personal experiences, we are definitely here to learn and help each other, and no one is 'better' or 'smarter' than anyone else bro.

Same thing goes for being right or wrong, if we are all striving for knowledge and truth, then we are all RIGHT.

[TaylorB]

I wanted information to be clear for the members

yeah, besides learning for my own benefit, its a good feeling to think your helping others experience improvements in their physiques as well.

[aragorn1500]

No one has mentioned any sides from Metformin? I took it for a month and it gave me horrible diarrhea.

I would think that after four weeks my body would have gotten accustomed and stopped but it didn't, so I stopped. Anyone else have this happen?

Thanks.

[RazorRipped]

No one has mentioned any sides from Metformin? I took it for a month and it gave me horrible diarrhea.

I would think that after four weeks my body would have gotten accustomed and stopped but it didn't, so I stopped. Anyone else have this happen?

Thanks.


Yes, I've had a few trainee's have gastrointestinal issues with metformin.
Some stopped using it for a few weeks and when they resumed they had no issues. Others just needed to use it only when really warranted

[TaylorB]

if i recall correctly, metformin has a quite substantial negative impact on testosterone levels for the natural bodybuilder. that would be one nasty side effect.

[hilly]

Razor,

Glucophage can be used while dieting to decrease glucose production in the liver and glucose absorption by the intestines, which brings about an increase in the body's dependence upon fat stores for energy requirements and simultaneously increases insulin secretion by the pancreas. So since insulin cell receptor sites become more sensitized, and since there is an existing cross-over stimulation between IGF-1 and insulin (and their opposing receptor sites) wouldn't that increase lean mass retention? And if yes, that would mean it would buffer the negative effects metaformin has on IGF-1 production, no?

I just want to make sure, because if I am wrong I do not want to be prescribing something incorrect to my clients that could detriment their gains or their health.


Thanks man!

elite i am dieting at the moment using a keto diet. could i still use glucophage and if so what dose/protocol would you suggest i try?

[ANABOLIC1]

I have never used glucophage but a friend of mine has. He told me that he would take it and then eat 2 king size snickers and literally feel the fullness swell in his muscles and vascularity appear out of nowhere.

Hearsay of course as I hate to comment on what others have told me and not what I have experienced but tempting to say the least.

[RazorRipped]

elite i am dieting at the moment using a keto diet. could i still use glucophage and if so what dose/protocol would you suggest i try?

I'm not ELITE, but I did stay at a Holiday INN last night.

Depends on what type keto diet you are using. If it's Dave diet, you have no need for Metformin since he only allows one cheat meal per week. Other keto diets that allow carbs PWO ,and a refeed once weekly. Metformin can be a useful tool.

[TaylorB]

I'm not ELITE, but I did stay at a Holiday INN last night.
bwahahaha

[hilly]

thnks razor

[xdime00]

Could metformin be used as a less effective although safer substitute to insulin in a protocol similar to that of Milos? (i know without insulin, it wont be his protocol, but maybe use 500mg pre-wo, and 500mg before the end of the workout?)

[Jasoon]

i would not use carnitine unless it was an injectable carnitine mixed with insulin........prettty sure its useless (doesnt increase carnitine in muscle) unless used in that fashion

i am pretty sure liquid carnitine works well as long as your mixing it with a fast absorbing carbohydrate i cant exactly remember how my friend explained it to me, but i use it with vitargo and have noticed quite a bit of fat loss in 2 months time just buy including that in my post workout shake

[BigJD69]

As far as Glucophage and stomach issues try switching over to the slower acting Glucophage (Generic is Metformin HCL ER), much better on the stomach. Can someone explain to me how taking a dose before cardio on an empty stomach won't assist my body in burning more bodyfat???