Using T3 to bulk..

[NPCKnight]

It has recently been brought to my attention and a topic of interest which I have been researching. Low doses (i.e. 40mcg) of t3 used in conjunction with a bulking cycle to enhance cycle/muscle gains. While it may not be revelation to many, it certainly was to me as I had thought it was primarily/only a pre contest drug.
From what I can piece together, T3 enahnces uptake of all nutrients and therefor can speed/enhance protein synthesis.

[BIGGUY86]

i think its needs to be used at low dose... like 25mcg...

i wonder if t4, and 100mcg (equivalant to 25mcg t3) would yeild the same results... ???

[TaylorB]

basic idea...youve got it..

not just a slight nutrient partitioning agent, but also theoretically can speed up the pace at which your body can metabolise protein(buidl muscle)...as t3 is tied in to the rate of carb fat and PROTEIN metabolism..

but the question is = does this mean only a faster rate of protein turnover, or does it mean more than just that (faster rate of growth when coupled with adequate caloric intake) ?


ive tried it... i dont know if it helped me grow faster...one thing is for sure, it allowed me to use slin and go very high on the carbs intake so i could use it pre workout with no fear of goign hypo or getting fat...IMO best use for t3 is to combine with slin (when bulking)......

[maxititer]

T3 is catabolic hormone,why it can be good for bulking. If your purpose is to have good control over fat accumulation, then use GH Frags 176-191, Frags does not have negative effect of T3 on muscle's proteins breakdown and regulate lipid metabolism in very healthy way, less fats stored and more fats used. Frags will give you good control over your bulking cycle and more predictable result at the end.

[shredded08]

i run 50mcgs t3 when im bulking...a very smart razor man that was ripped suggested that to me one time lol

[Spauldo]

This is very intresting, I would have never thought about using T3 during a bulking phase

[NPCKnight]

T3 is catabolic hormone,why it can be good for bulking. If your purpose is to have good control over fat accumulation, then use GH Frags 176-191, Frags does not have negative effect of T3 on muscle's proteins breakdown and regulate lipid metabolism in very healthy way, less fats stored and more fats used. Frags will give you good control over your bulking cycle and more predictable result at the end.

come on bro...dont get off topic. there is a correct way to use t3 in a bulk and you are not following. Forget GH and GH frags for muscle growth. t3 can have a synergystic effect with anabolics and high caloric/protein intake.

[maxititer]

good to know that, looking forward to hear more about your experience with T3

[marcus300]

Yes, it helps when bulking for some guys but don't use alot. Not used it often when bulking but I do know a few who rate it and always include it.

[JamesWebb]

40 - 50 mcgs while bulking throughout the entire aas cycle is what has been recommended to me

[BigJD69]

I never heard of that, sounds like it would be counterproductive!!

[THUNDERGOD]

I have heard of people using it for bulking to ensure that they get lean gains, but I will have to agree with Max on this one.

If you are eating clean, training hard and doing just a little bit of cardio you shouldn't need T3. But then again, everyone is different.

[TaylorB]

I have heard of people using it for bulking to ensure that they get lean gains, but I will have to agree with Max on this one.

If you are eating clean, training hard and doing just a little bit of cardio you shouldn't need T3. But then again, everyone is different.
its not a question of "need" its a question of whats "optimal"...


and thats the question

[RazorRipped]

its not a question of "need" its a question of whats "optimal"...




Give that man a cigar!

[NPCKnight]

Some of you need to pay attention to the original post at the top. I said using t3 to enhance muscle gains. I didnt say ANYWHERE about using t3 to help stay lean during a bulk. You guys are coming up with your own reasons when the true reason for using it is stated in broad daylight.

[THUNDERGOD]

Actually, some of us have always been told to use it for getting lean, not for bulking. I was just passing along what I have been told. I would be interested in hearing how this works for you.

[NPCKnight]

I have always heard it that way too, hence why I made this thread. Its a new revelation to me.

[THUNDERGOD]

NPCKnight, we are in the same boat, it's new to us...LOL but I did some reading because of your thread. From what I have read, it DOES sound like it would be OPTIMAL to run T3 at a low dose during a bulk. Most of what I found was for precontest, and talked about running it up to 100mcg for no more than 6 weeks. So if you ran it at a low dose, 25mcg-50mcg for a little longer, say 8-10 weeks during a bulking cycle, you should see some good results. Since T3 helps increase the utilization of protein, fats and carbs, this might become a part of everyone's offseason bulk.

[Jello]

I have always thought of it as a cutter. I just might try this with my next bulking cycle to see what kind of difference it makes.

[NPCKnight]

for lack of a better thought or phrase right now.... ' YAAAAAAAAAA BUDDDDDDDDDDAYYY '

[NPCKnight]

I am thinking that a super caloric diet is needed...and this is one time that you can go over 1.5g of protein per lb(without it being excessive) to really see dramatic changes in physique.

[BigJD69]

Hey whatever works!

[JWolfe]

I know ALR talks about it in his building the perfect beast book.

[TaylorB]

I am thinking that a super caloric diet is needed...and this is one time that you can go over 1.5g of protein per lb(without it being excessive) to really see dramatic changes in physique.
i think you can go far over 1.5g per lb of body weight on protein intake whether on t3 or not or on gear or not.... but thats a totally different matter, lol..

anyway, your right on... when using t3 to bulk you need ALOT of calorie... in fact your probably gonna end up eating junk food on top of your regular diet. but, like snacking on things like fat free ice cream popsickles yogurts candies... etc.. fat free junk.. thats a good way to do it.

and the rate of growth isnt any kind of dramatic improvement. the most youll get is a bit better gains whiel staying lean. however, for alot of guys thats definitely worth using it.

i said it before... IMO the best use is combined with insulin.

[BigJD69]

Hey guys that's why we are hear to learn from each other!

[LittleChris]

hello,
i was actually on t3 at 25 mcg a day for about a year. i did not notice any thermogenic effects, or enhanced gains. i was also on testsoterone at the time. i wouldnt even mess with t3, whether it be for cutting or "Increasing ones nutrient uptake". my opinion is that being on androgens, we are shutting down our natural production of androgens. im not interested in messing with my thyroid as well. testosterone is good enough for staying anabolic, and if i need to lean out, i just watch my diet, do cardio and just keep it on point. i try to use as little performance enhancers as possible. slow and steady.

-LC

[militantmuscle]

T3 is used in a bulking strategy for those who have slow metabolisms, because the body efficiently utilizes nutrients (including protein synthesis) at a greater rate when metabolism is increased. That is as simple as you can get to understand T3 bulking strategy.

[RazorRipped]

T3 is used in a bulking strategy for those who have slow metabolisms, because the body efficiently utilizes nutrients (including protein synthesis) at a greater rate when metabolism is increased. That is as simple as you can get to understand T3 bulking strategy.


That, plus 25 mcg is a tad low for the purpose we are discussing here.

[Aaron Singerman]

It has recently been brought to my attention and a topic of interest which I have been researching. Low doses (i.e. 40mcg) of t3 used in conjunction with a bulking cycle to enhance cycle/muscle gains. While it may not be revelation to many, it certainly was to me as I had thought it was primarily/only a pre contest drug.
From what I can piece together, T3 enahnces uptake of all nutrients and therefor can speed/enhance protein synthesis.

I have used 25mcg of t3 during several off-seasons. Of course I was taking other stuff, but I felt that it did help me stay leaner. It also causes a faster conversion of carbohydrates, proteins, and fats. It’s the increased conversion and absorption of nutrients that increases the results of your bulking cycle when you use it with a bulking cycle. I have never seen anything but good things come from the addition of t3 (low dosage) to a bulking cycle.

[NPCKnight]

What kind of low dosages are we talking about? Originally I had read and planned on 40mcg. But i thought all pills were 25mcg...so 40 could be hard to dose. Is 50mcg teetering on almost/borderline too much Razor? Or would you perhaps site 50mcg as a dose that shouldnt be exceeded for this application?

[Foreman Rules eats White Dog poo]

Interesting idea.

[militantmuscle]

NPCKnight, start out with 50mcg/d, take it in the morning and see your tolerance. One way to gauge the effectiveness of the T-3 (You should ideally be utilizing hGH and insulin as well, they work synergistically together) is how fast you recover between workouts, since metabolic increase will also dictate rate of recovery. You can then gauge your tolerance and if necessary bump dosages to 75mcg/d. The reason you are using T-3 is to increase the metabolic rate of the extra nutrients you are consuming because of your insulin intake, plus GH inhibits the conversion of T-4 to T-3.

Hope that helps.

[blacktaboo]

as t4 is less catabolic tha t3 can this b used in bulking also?

[RazorRipped]

as t4 is less catabolic tha t3 can this b used in bulking also?

To me, T4 is useless. T4 has to make the conversion to T3 anyway, so why not just use T3?

T3 at low dose (especially on drugs) isn't catabolic. I'm afraid you're suffering from over analyzation syndrome.:)

[militantmuscle]

Theoretically yes... but T4 is only 20% as effective as T3 is, so it will have a nominal effect.

[HANEYCOLEMAN]

you know i here alot of mis-information and trying to re-invent the wheel here. yes studies show that t3 can be beneficial and dave palumbo has suggested that t3 should never be used alone; rather combine it with clen and test but do so with this combination only when dieting.

As for t3 while bulking; yes some pros and everyday gym rat has incorporated this in their drug protocol; and suggest that their is an uptake of nutrients. Although studies do show that thyroid fuctions bounce back and are never permanently shut down is a myth. I would highly suggest that yes one could infact experiment and incorporate t3 in their bulking regimen. But i would suggest folks should take Bodyweight,Bodyfat,and Measurements prior to starting this offseason regimen so that one could later after have the results as proof if their is in fact a change.

I would say that their may be in fact some benefit to this; But still have reserves about it being a waist ; And still stand by the theory that t3 should be used when trying to keep bodyfat levels at bay; Otherwise their would be no benefit to include t3 in a bulking cycle since one would assume that bulking if to put on added size and your diet should be that source for one to stay relatively lean or keeping your bodyfat in check. H.C

[jacshelb]

That, plus 25 mcg is a tad low for the purpose we are discussing here.

Wouldn't that depend on the person?

(this is a general question, not just directed at RR)- What kind of insulin use are we talking about here? Is using humalog at 5 IU or less pw going to factor in this at all? If not, is there a benefit to using insulin more often? Just how does this all fit together?

And, for the record, I'm not asking this so I can be a reckless noob. I have some experience, but using t-3 for this purpose is new territory. I'm currently trying to put on as much mass as humanly possible over the next 10 weeks (2 weeks in already) and want to "optimize."

[militantmuscle]

you know i here alot of mis-information and trying to re-invent the wheel here. yes studies show that t3 can be beneficial and dave palumbo has suggested that t3 should never be used alone; rather combine it with clen and test but do so with this combination only when dieting.

As for t3 while bulking; yes some pros and everyday gym rat has incorporated this in their drug protocol; and suggest that their is an uptake of nutrients. Although studies do show that thyroid fuctions bounce back and are never permanently shut down is a myth. I would highly suggest that yes one could infact experiment and incorporate t3 in their bulking regimen. But i would suggest folks should take Bodyweight,Bodyfat,and Measurements prior to starting this offseason regimen so that one could later after have the results as proof if their is in fact a change.

I would say that their may be in fact some benefit to this; But still have reserves about it being a waist ; And still stand by the theory that t3 should be used when trying to keep bodyfat levels at bay; Otherwise their would be no benefit to include t3 in a bulking cycle since one would assume that bulking if to put on added size and your diet should be that source for one to stay relatively lean or keeping your bodyfat in check. H.C

There is a definite and real application for T-3 in a specialized mass gain setting, used synergistically with HGH and insulin. I think that is the key thing to remember, most individuals see T-3 + bulking and make assumptions that that is all to it, but it is a multi-dimensional process. First off, metabolism does not only govern how fast you burn fat, but nutrient assimilation and protein synthesis. In other words, the higher the metabolism, the more potential for faster muscle growth through this pathway. Secondly, growth hormone inhibits the conversion of T-4 to T-3. So by taking growth hormone, you are already inhibiting the natural production of T-3. So we know now that T-3 is anabolic, provided that enough calories and nutrition is provided, as well as proper training stimulus. Insulin helps to further this synergistic action by making nutrient absorption even more efficient.

As previously stated, using T-3 as a stand-alone component of your bulking strategy withough HGH and insulin is not a good idea, because you are not getting the synergistic effect. So unless you are using HGH and insulin, T-3 should not really be considered as part of your bulking cycle.

[HANEYCOLEMAN]

There is a definite and real application for T-3 in a specialized mass gain setting, used synergistically with HGH and insulin. I think that is the key thing to remember, most individuals see T-3 + bulking and make assumptions that that is all to it, but it is a multi-dimensional process. First off, metabolism does not only govern how fast you burn fat, but nutrient assimilation and protein synthesis. In other words, the higher the metabolism, the more potential for faster muscle growth through this pathway. Secondly, growth hormone inhibits the conversion of T-4 to T-3. So by taking growth hormone, you are already inhibiting the natural production of T-3. So we know now that T-3 is anabolic, provided that enough calories and nutrition is provided, as well as proper training stimulus. Insulin helps to further this synergistic action by making nutrient absorption even more efficient.

As previously stated, using T-3 as a stand-alone component of your bulking strategy withough HGH and insulin is not a good idea, because you are not getting the synergistic effect. So unless you are using HGH and insulin, T-3 should not really be considered as part of your bulking cycle.


Now this i totally agree with.

[Asmolenski]

First off, metabolism does not only govern how fast you burn fat, but nutrient assimilation and protein synthesis. In other words, the higher the metabolism, the more potential for faster muscle growth through this pathway.

I am not sure this is true. People with high metabolic rates tend to be skinny and have a hard time putting on mass. A slow metabolic rate may be a curse for a bodybuilder trying to get cut for a show, but when they are bulking they are the ones who can add mass (and fat) quickly.

[RazorRipped]

I am not sure this is true. People with high metabolic rates tend to be skinny and have a hard time putting on mass. A slow metabolic rate may be a curse for a bodybuilder trying to get cut for a show, but when they are bulking they are the ones who can add mass (and fat) quickly.


I don't think he's talking about people with hyperthyroidism.

[TaylorB]

I am not sure this is true. People with high metabolic rates tend to be skinny and have a hard time putting on mass. A slow metabolic rate may be a curse for a bodybuilder trying to get cut for a show, but when they are bulking they are the ones who can add mass (and fat) quickly.
in my opinion the idea that people have huge differences in metabolic rates (with lean body mass beign equal) is not that real... what is real is the differences in people appetite levels... the guys who say their hard gainers and ectomorphs most of the time are guys who also have very small natural appetites (and alot of times waste their limited appetites on junk food)...while the guys who say they are fat prone and endomorphs are most of the time guys with huge appetites and like to binge eat on a daily basis.

[NPCKnight]

Razor would you recommend for or against the use of low dose t3 on a mass regime for one of your trainees that was only using anabolics and androgens....no gh and or slin.

[RazorRipped]

Razor would you recommend for or against the use of low dose t3 on a mass regime for one of your trainees that was only using anabolics and androgens....no gh and or slin.

I have several trainee's that can't afford HGH. Others don't want to run slin

In either case, they are still making great progress without HGH or slin even though T3 is implemented. It's very noticable with athletes with slower metabolisms. I've had them run the same exact cycle with/without T3. Same diet as well. So I do have some data as to the differences between the two cycles.

[militantmuscle]

I am not sure this is true. People with high metabolic rates tend to be skinny and have a hard time putting on mass. A slow metabolic rate may be a curse for a bodybuilder trying to get cut for a show, but when they are bulking they are the ones who can add mass (and fat) quickly.

Asmolenki, I apologize, I am not referring to clinical hyperthyroidism, I am trying to outline the specific ideal situation that T-3 would be implemented in for maximum gains, this would be by incorporating it with insulin and HGH.

[collegelinebacker31]

Does anyone know the detection time of T3???

[chucksm00th]

there is no detection time...the only thing you would see is elevated tsh levels if you were running a high dose

[MartyMcFly]

this conversation is very interesting. i would want to hear more. but does it only help to stay leaner, or does it have a synergistic effect with aas?

[chucksm00th]

this conversation is very interesting. i would want to hear more. but does it only help to stay leaner, or does it have a synergistic effect with aas?


From what ive read, it does have synergystic effects at SMALL doses, since T3 speeds everything up in the body, making your cycle "technically" more effective.. then again Dave says its silly to take it when dieting..

I tried it and make exceptional gains this year..Only a small dose tho

[militantmuscle]

this conversation is very interesting. i would want to hear more. but does it only help to stay leaner, or does it have a synergistic effect with aas?

BOTH.

You have to understand why and how things work. T3 is exogenous thyroid hormone. Every cell in the body depends upon thyroid hormones for regulation of their metabolism. What is metabolism? Simply the set of chemical processes that occur in the body, including protein synthesis (building of muscle tissue), and lipolysis (fat burning).

Knowing the definitions of those terms, basically T3 can raise the rate at which protein synthesis occurs. If you're building muscle faster, you have to provide more nutrients for MORE muscle growth. This is the oversimplified reasoning behind using T3 for bulking.

The T3 use for fat burning is a little bit more obvious, so I won't go into that.

I see this often, most guys are more concerned with the end result, then the pathways/processes. If you know how the stuff you are taking works and what it does, then you can make better decisions and reasoning on whether you should use EQ or not, or T3 or not, will anadrol get me big, etc.

[chucksm00th]

BOTH.

You have to understand why and how things work. T3 is exogenous thyroid hormone. Every cell in the body depends upon thyroid hormones for regulation of their metabolism. What is metabolism? Simply the set of chemical processes that occur in the body, including protein synthesis (building of muscle tissue), and lipolysis (fat burning).

Knowing the definitions of those terms, basically T3 can raise the rate at which protein synthesis occurs. If you're building muscle faster, you have to provide more nutrients for MORE muscle growth. This is the oversimplified reasoning behind using T3 for bulking.

The T3 use for fat burning is a little bit more obvious, so I won't go into that.

I see this often, most guys are more concerned with the end result, then the pathways/processes. If you know how the stuff you are taking works and what it does, then you can make better decisions and reasoning on whether you should use EQ or not, or T3 or not, will anadrol get me big, etc.


Well said:D

[RazorRipped]

Here's a few (of many) studies done, some in space, that suggest T3 on cycle is a great idea

Am J Physiol 1994 Oct;267(4 Pt 1):C926-31
In vivo upregulation of adipocyte alpha 2-adrenoceptors by androgens is consequence of direct action on fat cells.
Bouloumie A, Valet P, Dauzats M, Lafontan M, Saulnier-Blache JS.

(2) Eur J Pharmacol 1994 Sep 15;269(1):95-103
Adipocyte alpha 2A-adrenoceptor is the only alpha 2-adrenoceptor regulated by testosterone.
Bouloumie A, Valet P, Daviaud D, Prats H, Lafontan M, Saulnier-Blache JS.

(3) J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2002 Feb;87(2):630-4
Regulation of human adipocyte gene expression by thyroid hormone.
Viguerie N, Millet L, Avizou S, Vidal H, Larrouy D, Langin D.

[NPCKnight]

On a 16 week bulk/mass regime with just AAS....would running t3 @25-40mg(thats the right dosing for this correct?) the entire 16 weeks be unhealthy? If I planned to cut out NPP and EQ at week 14 should i Keep the t3 in with Test til wk 16?

[apex23]

How long do you guys like to run low dose of T-3 and how long are your breaks before continueing back on. I have take a month off and continue...when using low dosages.

[apex23]

Bump

[gabe_peterson]

Bottom line, with T3 you increase the amount of protein one can assimilate as it is responsible for PROTEIN SYNTHESIS, also like RR mentioned it requires more than 25mcg per day as at that low of a dose you are only shutting down your own T3 and simply replacing it. 40mcg is a good place to start.

If you don't have your diet in place and are not consuming enough protein, then yes you could lose muscle.

[NPCKnight]

40mcg is a good place to start..CHECK. 25mcg is too little...CHECK. hard to do 40mcg when they come in 25mcg pills. I dont trust liquid with mcg and suspensions. i see a lot of people take t3 75-100mcg for pre contest....so I wondered if you say 40mcg is a good place to START then where is a good idea to KEEP IT UNDER for bulking/muscle building purposes?

[TaylorB]

40mcg is a good place to start..CHECK. 25mcg is too little...CHECK. hard to do 40mcg when they come in 25mcg pills. I dont trust liquid with mcg and suspensions. i see a lot of people take t3 75-100mcg for pre contest....so I wondered if you say 40mcg is a good place to START then where is a good idea to KEEP IT UNDER for bulking/muscle building purposes?
you can go pretty high for bulking, but you need to get calories very high too, and also with high levels of t3 youll definitely want to use insulin alongside.

[apex23]

What is the longest any of you have run 40 mcg T-3?

Also how long of a break did you take before you ran it again?