Crystal DNP

[THE_MANN]

Im about to begin a DNP run in roughly 6 weeks.

My source says that he has 200mcg tabs which are crystallized.

How can i most accurately tell how much actual DNP i am getting? If they are capped with 25mcg of filler per 100mcg then each tab will actually have 150mcg of DNP in it.

How can i verify its 25mcg crystal and nothing more or less? If i mesure them to be 210mcg then is there more or less of the DNP or filler in there?

Besides the half life being shorter with crystal is there any other fundamental differences between the two? Any at all in terms of effectiveness? I khow the impurities will not cause any damage anyway.

[jacshelb]

Well, it's mg not mcg with dnp. Not to be a prick, but for the sake of measurement. As I understand it, crystal causes it to be 25-30% less actual dnp than powder. If the half life is shorter, then it shouldn't build up in the system as much either. But, I wouldn't count on a big difference there. If they are 200 mg tabs, they should be 150 mg of actual dnp per. Remember not to take so much you "feel" it working. Stick with each dose for 5 days to let it build up and test tolerance and proceed up slowly is my advice!

[THE_MANN]

I wil do mate, thats for the advise.

So 200mg actually equates to 150mg? I'm pretty sure I read Concil. posting that the filler should account for 25mg per 100mg....

Is there a way I would be able to tell how much is in there? I want to calculate exactly how much im taking in, and as you said build up very slowly - Or will i be fine just treating 200mg as 20mg :P

Side note: How long have you run DNP mate? Im planning for 20-30 days (sides permitting) low dose 200mg maybe 400 for the last couplde of days (again, if everything goes well)

[jacshelb]

AT first I used a digital scale and basically thought of it as, if I'm taking in 200 mg of powder, then I'm taking 200 mg of dnp. I knew this probably wasn't true, it was more like 100 mg, but I wanted to be absolutely safe. There is likely going to be filler and no way to know for sure, but if you want to be extra safe, you could use my method.

I basically took 150 mg per day for 5.5 weeks with good results, not crazy results, but plenty noticeable. I was using powder. I've been back on for a week and just working "up to" the same dose. It will build in my system over a week or so, so I'm still extra careful. I am going to run it for another 5 weeks or until I run out, whichever comes first :)

If you are not in a hot climate, 200 mg of actual dnp should be well tolerated. One way you could approach it is to take 2 x 150 mg (actual dnp, minus the crystal component) one day and the next take just 1. It'll average out that way. But, I'd just do the one capsule for the first week and see how you tolerate it. If the sides start getting bad, drop it back down to 1 capsule. Everyone has different tolerance. A friend of mine couldn't stand 100 mg/day! I don't even notice that amount.

[THE_MANN]

.. 2 x 150 mg (actual dnp, minus the crystal component) ...

Sorry for my ignorance, do you mean is 2 x 200mg capsule - which has 150mg of actual DNP per capsule. 50mg accounting for filler correct?

OR 150mg capsule which would have something like 112.5mg(~25% filler) of DNP in there?

Thanks for the heads up, ill try the slow and steady approach :yep:

[jacshelb]

Sorry for my ignorance, do you mean is 2 x 200mg capsule - which has 150mg of actual DNP per capsule. 50mg accounting for filler correct?

OR 150mg capsule which would have something like 112.5mg(~25% filler) of DNP in there?

Thanks for the heads up, ill try the slow and steady approach :yep:

Yeah, I'm saying to take 2 of the 200 mg caps accounting for 50 mg of crystal component to the dnp in each cap. The filler is actually going to make the capsule weigh even more. Likely, when you put it on the scale it'll break down like this: capsule itself empty= 90 mg, crystal dnp itself= 200 mg, filler= between 100-200 mg.

I know it's kind of confusing, but, when dnp is pure powder it is 100% dnp or near it. When it is crystalized it will be 75% dnp and 25% crystal. It's kind of like the difference between straight test (water based) and test enanthate. Because of the longer acting ester attatched to the enanthate there is slightly less actual testosterone- though it's not as big of a difference as with the dnp vs crystal dnp. Clear as mud? :)


So, yeah, your 200 mg crystal dnp caps will be 150 mg of actual potent dnp.

[-BLP-]

to rant species in here.. i thought somalyze did pretty good has a alternative option

[THE_MANN]

Top stuff RX Muscle Forums - View Profile: jacshelb@@AMEPARAM@@View Profile: jacshelb</title>@@AMEPARAM@@jacshelb!

Much appreciated!

[Conciliator]

It sounds like there's some confusion about how to calculate the actual DNP content of a capsule or tablet. Let my try my best to clarify. Before I do that, though, I want to avoid potential confusion. There are two chemical forms of DNP on the market, "powder DNP" and "crystal DNP." The difference between them is similar to the difference between testosterone suspension and testosterone prop. They're both testosterone, but in differnet forms. One is the parent hormone, or testosterone base, and the other is testosterone base attached to a propionate ester. In a similar way, "DNP powder" is the parent molecule, or DNP base. It's plain DNP. The other form, "crystal DNP," is street slang for what is known as the "sodium salt of DNP." It's the DNP base attached to a sodium atom, forming an ionic salt.

The street names for these two forms of DNP can cause confusion, because both "powder DNP" and "crystal DNP" come as powders. If I talk about having 100mg of DNP powder, it could be 100mg of "powder DNP" or 100mg of "crystal DNP." To avoid this confustion, I'm going to use "DNP base" to refer to "powder DNP". And if you see me talking about "DNP powder" it could be either form.

With that out of the way, there are two issues involved in the DNP content of a capsule or tablet. The first issue has to do with the amount of filler relative to DNP powder. The second issue is the amount of actual DNP contained in the DNP powder (base or crystal) that was used.

For the first issue, take a look at the following table on capsule sizes:
http://www.cap-m-quik.com/images/capsizes.jpghttp://www.cap-m-quik.com/images/dimensions.gif
As you can see, a common size 0 capsule holds roughly 680mg of total powder (depending on the density, which we won't get into here). A "filler" is just what it sounds like, something used to fill up the extra space. The technical term is "excipient." It could be corn starch, flower, creatine, sugar, whatever you want to use to take up space. In a tablet, the filler also contains a binder, which makes all the powders stick together. So in that size 0 capsule the 680mg could be made up of any ratio of DNP powder to filler powders. For example, you could have any of the following:

100mg of DNP base powder, 580mg of corn starch
100mg of crystal DNP powder, 580mg of corn starch
250mg of DNP base powder, 430mg of flour
500mg of crystal DNP powder, 40mg of corn starch, 40mg of flour

When DNP sources talk about the dose per cap or per tab, they're talking about the amount of DNP powder they included, as opposed to the filler. In the first exmaple above, the DNP source would say that he sells "powder DNP" and that each cap contains 100mg of DNP. In the second example above, the source would say that he sells "crystal DNP" and that each cap contains 100mg of DNP.

This leads us to the second issue, how much actual DNP is contained in the DNP powder (base or crystal) that was used? DNP base is essentially 100% actual DNP. It comes mixed with water (wetted) to prevent an explosive hazard, so initially a good portion of the weight is water, but it must be dried before capping. And after it's dried, DNP base is essentially all DNP. So in the first example above, the source included 100mg of DNP base in each cap and you get essentially 100mg of actual DNP.

Crystal DNP is different. It's not pure DNP since it's bound to sodium. After being injested, the sodium is cleaved from the molecule, leaving you with the same DNP base you get when you take "powder DNP." So you have to substract the weight of the sodium in order to see how much actual DNP it will yield. It's often been said that crystal DNP is 75% as strong as powder DNP (and that the sodium accounts for 25% of the weight). I've repeated this myself. But based on the actual chemical structures and molar masses, we see that crystal DNP is about 89% as strong as powder DNP. The molar mass is 184.106 for the base vs 206.088 for crystal. So in the second example above, if the source included 100mg of crystal DNP in each cap, that's essentially 89mg of actual DNP. The source will tell you that it contains 100mg of crystal DNP, which is correct, but you need to do the math to see how much actual DNP that will yield.

Not surprisingly, people have noticed that crystal DNP has fewer side effects than an equivalent dose of powder DNP (say 100mg crystal vs 100mg powder). That's because you're ingesting less actual DNP when you take the crystal form (89mg) compared to the powder form (100mg). With a lower actual dose, of course you'll have fewer side effects! You'll also have less fat loss. Now lets say you lowered the dose of powder from 100mg to 89mg. The effects should be nearly identical. According to Cutting and Tainer, who did the most research to date on DNP in humans, "the two forms are therapeutically indistinguishable as would be expected." In other words, once you account for the dose equivalency, there's no differece between the two in fat loss or side effects. One does not appear to be any faster acting than the other. Both are highly bioavilable.

I want to point out that underdosing and inconsistent dosing seem to be common problems among DNP sources. There are only a couple of sources I trust. An example of underdosing would be if a source says each capsule contains 250mg of cystal DNP when it was actually formulated to contain 200mg (and being crystal, the actual DNP content would be 89% of that). Inconsistent dosing occurs when a source doesn't take measures to control for the amount of powder going into one batch of capsules to the next. "D", a popular source who does 250mg crystal caps, is guilty of this by his own admission (based on the method of capping he descibed using). If anyone would like more information about this, I can elaborate.

To end, I want to point out that there's really no way for you to tell how much DNP is in a capsule beyond expensive laboratory testing. For example, if you're buying crystal DNP tabs, you can't weigh one of your tabs and conclude that 89% of it is actual DNP. That's because because the tablets are not pure crystal DNP. They also contain fillers. You have no idea how much of it is crystal DNP and how much is filler. And you can't take 89% to calculate actual DNP until you know the quantity of crystal DNP. All you know is what the souce claims it contains. Smae goes for powder DNP. It's essentially all DNP, but a capsule that weighs 700mg might contain 650mg of filler and only 50mg of DNP powder.

The fact that you don't know how much a capsule contains doesn't really matter though. Because when it comes to DNP, you can't plan out the doses of your cycle like you do with a cycle of steroids. That's because there's just too much variation in individual sensitivity to DNP to be able to plan your doses. One person may need only 300mg/day, while another person needs 800mg/day, all for the same fat loss effect. The only thing you can plan on with DNP is staying at each dose for 4-5 days (no matter what the dose might actually be) and increasing the dose by the lowest increment you have (again, whatever that might be) only if your temperature is under 99.1 and the side effects don't feel excessive.


Hope that helps,
Conciliator

[jacshelb]

That's what I was trying to say, but this post is very complete! Thanks again Conciliator! I've read a lot of your posts on a lot of boards researching dnp and your info has been invaluable again and again.


It sounds like there's some confusion about how to calculate the actual DNP content of a capsule or tablet. Let my try my best to clarify. Before I do that, though, I want to avoid potential confusion. There are two chemical forms of DNP on the market, "powder DNP" and "crystal DNP." The difference between them is similar to the difference between testosterone suspension and testosterone prop. They're both testosterone, but in differnet forms. One is the parent hormone, or testosterone base, and the other is testosterone base attached to a propionate ester. In a similar way, "DNP powder" is the parent molecule, or DNP base. It's plain DNP. The other form, "crystal DNP," is street slang for what is known as the "sodium salt of DNP." It's the DNP base attached to a sodium atom, forming an ionic salt.

The street names for these two forms of DNP can cause confusion, because both "powder DNP" and "crystal DNP" come as powders. If I talk about having 100mg of DNP powder, it could be 100mg of "powder DNP" or 100mg of "crystal DNP." To avoid this confustion, I'm going to use "DNP base" to refer to "powder DNP". And if you see me talking about "DNP powder" it could be either form.

With that out of the way, there are two issues involved in the DNP content of a capsule or tablet. The first issue has to do with the amount of filler relative to DNP powder. The second issue is the amount of actual DNP contained in the DNP powder (base or crystal) that was used.

For the first issue, take a look at the following table on capsule sizes:
http://www.cap-m-quik.com/images/capsizes.jpghttp://www.cap-m-quik.com/images/dimensions.gif
As you can see, a common size 0 capsule holds roughly 680mg of total powder (depending on the density, which we won't get into here). A "filler" is just what it sounds like, something used to fill up the extra space. The technical term is "excipient." It could be corn starch, flower, creatine, sugar, whatever you want to use to take up space. In a tablet, the filler also contains a binder, which makes all the powders stick together. So in that size 0 capsule the 680mg could be made up of any ratio of DNP powder to filler powders. For example, you could have any of the following:

100mg of DNP base powder, 580mg of corn starch
100mg of crystal DNP powder, 580mg of corn starch
250mg of DNP base powder, 430mg of flour
500mg of crystal DNP powder, 40mg of corn starch, 40mg of flour

When DNP sources talk about the dose per cap or per tab, they're talking about the amount of DNP powder they included, as opposed to the filler. In the first exmaple above, the DNP source would say that he sells "powder DNP" and that each cap contains 100mg of DNP. In the second example above, the source would say that he sells "crystal DNP" and that each cap contains 100mg of DNP.

This leads us to the second issue, how much actual DNP is contained in the DNP powder (base or crystal) that was used? DNP base is essentially 100% actual DNP. It comes mixed with water (wetted) to prevent an explosive hazard, so initially a good portion of the weight is water, but it must be dried before capping. And after it's dried, DNP base is essentially all DNP. So in the first example above, the source included 100mg of DNP base in each cap and you get essentially 100mg of actual DNP.

Crystal DNP is different. It's not pure DNP since it's bound to sodium. After being injested, the sodium is cleaved from the molecule, leaving you with the same DNP base you get when you take "powder DNP." So you have to substract the weight of the sodium in order to see how much actual DNP it will yield. It's often been said that crystal DNP is 75% as strong as powder DNP (and that the sodium accounts for 25% of the weight). I've repeated this myself. But based on the actual chemical structures and molar masses, we see that crystal DNP is about 89% as strong as powder DNP. The molar mass is 184.106 for the base vs 206.088 for crystal. So in the second example above, if the source included 100mg of crystal DNP in each cap, that's essentially 89mg of actual DNP. The source will tell you that it contains 100mg of crystal DNP, which is correct, but you need to do the math to see how much actual DNP that will yield.

Not surprisingly, people have noticed that crystal DNP has fewer side effects than an equivalent dose of powder DNP (say 100mg crystal vs 100mg powder). That's because you're ingesting less actual DNP when you take the crystal form (89mg) compared to the powder form (100mg). With a lower actual dose, of course you'll have fewer side effects! You'll also have less fat loss. Now lets say you lowered the dose of powder from 100mg to 89mg. The effects should be nearly identical. According to Cutting and Tainer, who did the most research to date on DNP in humans, "the two forms are therapeutically indistinguishable as would be expected." In other words, once you account for the dose equivalency, there's no differece between the two in fat loss or side effects. One does not appear to be any faster acting than the other. Both are highly bioavilable.

I want to point out that underdosing and inconsistent dosing seem to be common problems among DNP sources. There are only a couple of sources I trust. An example of underdosing would be if a source says each capsule contains 250mg of cystal DNP when it was actually formulated to contain 200mg (and being crystal, the actual DNP content would be 89% of that). Inconsistent dosing occurs when a source doesn't take measures to control for the amount of powder going into one batch of capsules to the next. "D", a popular source who does 250mg crystal caps, is guilty of this by his own admission (based on the method of capping he descibed using). If anyone would like more information about this, I can elaborate.

To end, I want to point out that there's really no way for you to tell how much DNP is in a capsule beyond expensive laboratory testing. For example, if you're buying crystal DNP tabs, you can't weigh one of your tabs and conclude that 89% of it is actual DNP. That's because because the tablets are not pure crystal DNP. They also contain fillers. You have no idea how much of it is crystal DNP and how much is filler. And you can't take 89% to calculate actual DNP until you know the quantity of crystal DNP. All you know is what the souce claims it contains. Smae goes for powder DNP. It's essentially all DNP, but a capsule that weighs 700mg might contain 650mg of filler and only 50mg of DNP powder.

The fact that you don't know how much a capsule contains doesn't really matter though. Because when it comes to DNP, you can't plan out the doses of your cycle like you do with a cycle of steroids. That's because there's just too much variation in individual sensitivity to DNP to be able to plan your doses. One person may need only 300mg/day, while another person needs 800mg/day, all for the same fat loss effect. The only thing you can plan on with DNP is staying at each dose for 4-5 days (no matter what the dose might actually be) and increasing the dose by the lowest increment you have (again, whatever that might be) only if your temperature is under 99.1 and the side effects don't feel excessive.


Hope that helps,
Conciliator

[jacshelb]

to rant species in here.. i thought somalyze did pretty good has a alternative option

Do you feel, by way of your results, that Somalyze really worked that well? I'm not second guessing you, just seriously asking as I've wondered about it. To be honest, so far I've had little bad to say about dnp as I've kept my doses very reasonable.