Metformin anyone?

[juice232]

anyone have experience with this drug used for diabetes in the the bodybuilding community? for fat-loss properties and/or getting into ketosis quicker?

[nitrous]

ive heard its just not worth it but maybe someone else can chime in

[JamesWebb]

it can push you into ketosis rapidly. i know that some people who do keto will use it after a large cheat meal to make sure they stay in ketosis. never used it personally though.

[Bryan Hildebrand]

use search. there is a very indepth post about it within the past 6 months.

[ivan drago]

ive heard its just not worth it but maybe someone else can chime in

Sadly, I have also only been given the same poor or lackluster feedback... on paper it seems to be a miracle drug that would allow bodybuilders to accumulate more muscle glycogen and more efficiently dispose of excess glycogen without being converted into fat; but I have read and heard anecdotal reports that it is not a worthy additive to any protocol and can even negatively affect overall circulating testosterone.

I wish all the reports were wrong though... because it also happens to be extremely inexpensive. I will stick to Vanadyl sulfate and na-R-ala for insulin modulation.

[ivan drago]

PS: As far as using it solely as a post-splurge 'relief' type of supplement, I would be more interested in this, as my weekly cheat meal can exceed a couple thousand calories in one sitting... but I just don't know if any supplement could avoid 300+ grams of simple sugars from pizza and ice cream causing some adipogenesis, haha!! Sign me up if it can ;)

[Bigbench1]

I have used it several times and I thing its a great supp to add in to your regimen. At 1000-1500mgs on my refeed, I will be back in Keto the following morning no problem at all. I will even use it at other times along with my postworkout meals in a similar manor to slin. The fullness brought about by it will be very noticeable and can help keep glycogen levels high in a carb depleted state

[ivan drago]

I have used it several times and I thing its a great supp to add in to your regimen. At 1000-1500mgs on my refeed, I will be back in Keto the following morning no problem at all. I will even use it at other times along with my postworkout meals in a similar manor to slin. The fullness brought about by it will be very noticeable and can help keep glycogen levels high in a carb depleted state

So it produces great muscle pumps and tissue volume when used in conjunction with high carb meals? I'm interested now, because the reviews of this have been so severely mixed over the years I've been reading about it. Do you time it 15-30min before your carbohydrate meals in order to have it already active in your system?

I am by no means looking for a key to unlock the ability to eat sloppy or cheat daily, but for those once-a-week 'gluttonous' massive carbohydrate intakes of pizza and some cookies, I wonder if this would allow for a heightened ability for glycogen to be more favorably directed into muscle cells/fibers, rather than stored in the liver or converted to fat?

[Anthony]

I have used it several times and I thing its a great supp to add in to your regimen. At 1000-1500mgs on my refeed, I will be back in Keto the following morning no problem at all. I will even use it at other times along with my postworkout meals in a similar manor to slin. The fullness brought about by it will be very noticeable and can help keep glycogen levels high in a carb depleted state

How should it be taken - before/after/during meal? Any issues taking near sleep like slin?

[jacshelb]

Interesting. I've only heard the negatives up till now as well. But, then again, who knows if a person what getting bad results due to bad timing, use etc. I think there are a lot of supplements that are "worthwhile" when used correctly, but seem to not be worth anything if just thrown in willy nilly.

[apex23]

I use to think it was worthless but I have been 500mg 2 x day with a higher carb meal and can honestly say that it works when dieting. No, I do not do the low carb type diet.

I can honestly tell that with cardio and weighttraining that my body is even leaner. I also like Acarbos( Glucobay). I know a few bb in my area that use either one and love it.

Do NOT use after a work-out...Metformin blunts IGF-1 levels in the liver.

[apex23]

Forget these so called GDA's...I think Vanadyl is worthless. I know that there are guys that swear by it....but where is the science?

ALA might be legit, but I have read that you have to take 900 mg or higher....

[BigJD69]

Can it be taken before cardio on an empty stomach to aid in fat loss???

[apex23]

NO WAY....You always take it with a carb meal. IT is not a fatburner.

[apex23]

Here is some information. By the way I did not write this and I am not sure who did or I would give credit.

People should understand that metformin's primary mode of action is activation of AMPK. AMPK is like a very sensitive cellular fuel gauge. The higher the level of AMPK, the stronger the signal of "empty." The result of increasing AMPK is that energy producing pathways are promoted and energy consuming pathways are inhibited.

The good news is along the lines of energy producing pathways. AMPK increases insulin sensitivity, enhances glucose uptake, increases fatty acid oxidation, and stimulates insulin-independent glucose uptake (i.e. glucose uptake that doesn't require insulin). The downside is that energy consuming pathways are also inhibited. This includes protein synthesis. AMPK directly inhibts mTOR, which is one of the most downstream signaling proteins regulating protein synthesis.

Basically, when you take metformin, not only are you improving glucose uptake, you're mimicking the cellular signal for "empty," which inhibits things that consume energy, including protein synthesis.

[BigJD69]

Here is some information. By the way I did not write this and I am not sure who did or I would give credit.

People should understand that metformin's primary mode of action is activation of AMPK. AMPK is like a very sensitive cellular fuel gauge. The higher the level of AMPK, the stronger the signal of "empty." The result of increasing AMPK is that energy producing pathways are promoted and energy consuming pathways are inhibited.

The good news is along the lines of energy producing pathways. AMPK increases insulin sensitivity, enhances glucose uptake, increases fatty acid oxidation, and stimulates insulin-independent glucose uptake (i.e. glucose uptake that doesn't require insulin). The downside is that energy consuming pathways are also inhibited. This includes protein synthesis. AMPK directly inhibts mTOR, which is one of the most downstream signaling proteins regulating protein synthesis.

Basically, when you take metformin, not only are you improving glucose uptake, you're mimicking the cellular signal for "empty," which inhibits things that consume energy, including protein synthesis.
Does that mean that while on metformin protein intake needs to be increased??

[ivan drago]

Forget these so called GDA's...I think Vanadyl is worthless. I know that there are guys that swear by it....but where is the science?

ALA might be legit, but I have read that you have to take 900 mg or higher....

There are many published peer reviewed and clinical controlled studies available regarding Vanadyl Sulfate and its many iterations. Much of the research, aside from some purported poor bio-availability and gastric distress of the sulfate version, seems to be positive and encouraging. I am not swayed either way at this point in time to be honest, but overall if I was forced to make a judgment call at this point in time I would say Vanadyl Sulfate is effective in as much as the dosage remains high (10mg for every 30g carbohydrates as a bare minimum) and it is taken at least 15min prior to ingesting the carbohydrates. I believe slin-sane, Glycobol, i-Load from Art Atwood's company, and a few others are very interesting and should be given some attention and dissected more carefully before shrugging them off to the side.

Also, concerning Metformin, I am also riding the fence on this compound - because for years now, I have heard pretty severe and clearly divided feedback from its users, some claiming it isn't worth the time of day and might actually even lower testosterone and negatively affect your insulin sensitivity and ability to dispose of glucose efficiently over the long run (years), and some say it is like oral insulin in that it allows for a much greater muscle-glycogen loading and uptake capacity, which leads to an overall fuller more vascular physique and lowers the amount of carb conversion to fat tissue after a massive cheat meal...

[ivan drago]

Interesting. I've only heard the negatives up till now as well. But, then again, who knows if a person what getting bad results due to bad timing, use etc. I think there are a lot of supplements that are "worthwhile" when used correctly, but seem to not be worth anything if just thrown in willy nilly.

Also, not as a knock on anyone directly on this forum since I am new and not familiar with anyone, but as a 'big picture' type of observation, feedback is only as good as the person/athlete offering it. Many gym-rats are not personally interested or vested into ongoing research, reading, and applied sciences, and can barely (if at all) articulate anything pertaining to physique enhancement science over-and-above curls and bench presses... so feedback from these sources is not reliable and should be taken with a massive slab of salt.

I usually try to stick with the scientific literature, the free on line journals, MD articles, and by simply using Google when I am trying to do further research. Also, many forums (including this one I'm sure) have mods and members with high post counts who have demonstrated over long periods of time, that they can be relied upon for solid information and direction.

All of this leads me to believe Metformin, especially being a prescription drug created for the expressed purpose of modulating and enhancing glucose favorably in the body, would have to hold some type of worthy cause within the truly calculated and dedicated well-versed and learned bodybuilder who has the education to properly implement this drug to experience its full efficacy.

[ivan drago]

I use to think it was worthless but I have been 500mg 2 x day with a higher carb meal and can honestly say that it works when dieting. No, I do not do the low carb type diet.

I can honestly tell that with cardio and weighttraining that my body is even leaner. I also like Acarbos( Glucobay). I know a few bb in my area that use either one and love it.

Do NOT use after a work-out...Metformin blunts IGF-1 levels in the liver.

Hey Apex, thanks for the great feedback.

Are you able to get your supply from a diabetic friend, or do you order through online suppliers approved on other forums Western Union etc?

At any rate, I'm glad to hear from someone using it, and wonder if you could share more about the Glucobay, I have not heard of it as I have not done research in this specific area for a while?

I know many people do not advocate certain additives directly post-workout, some even say to avoid carbohydrates as they slightly blunt the effects and circulation of growth hormone, and in regards to your comment about not using Glucophage (Metformin) post-workout due to negating the signaling/production of IGF-1, I am one to argue that these incidental and short-lived hormone stimulation events are not dramatic enough and also lack necessary duration, to truly induce an anabolic net-effect; so I would rather take the carbs and Metformin post-workout which DOES cause a dynamic shift and subsequent measurable and validated massive potential for accruing new muscle fiber/hypertrophy.

What are your overall thoughts?

[ivan drago]

NO WAY....You always take it with a carb meal. IT is not a fatburner.

true, it doesn't impart lipolysis directly as other beta-antagonists or stimulants might do, it only produces a more favorable blood glucose/sugar index and potential for carbohydrate conversion and storage to be directed toward muscle cells/tissue primarily opposed to simply replenishing liver stores and being converted to new fatty tissue.

I have never been a fan of purposefully lowering blood sugar in order to elicit fat loss though, since I can't stand the dizzy light-headed feeling followed by head aches and fatigue/lethargy.

PS: I forgot to ask Apex, you mentioned ALA earlier in your Vanadyl post... I agree and also believe it has exhibited staying power in the industry and the scientific community as a worthy and effective nutraceutical. What are your overall feelings about ALA, and do you feel or are you referring to a version that works better than others, r-ala, potassium bound ala (k), or the newer stabilized sodium (Na) ALA?

As far as 900mg+ being the only effective dose, I agree... and would also say it isn't all bad news, because ALA powders can be found if sought out hard enough online, especially the 'bio-active' stable sodium bound version. Nutra Planet, Bulk Nutrition, and perhaps even Custom Nutrition Warehouse have bulk powder available if I'm not mistaken or out of date.

[ivan drago]

Here is some information. By the way I did not write this and I am not sure who did or I would give credit.

People should understand that metformin's primary mode of action is activation of AMPK. AMPK is like a very sensitive cellular fuel gauge. The higher the level of AMPK, the stronger the signal of "empty." The result of increasing AMPK is that energy producing pathways are promoted and energy consuming pathways are inhibited.

The good news is along the lines of energy producing pathways. AMPK increases insulin sensitivity, enhances glucose uptake, increases fatty acid oxidation, and stimulates insulin-independent glucose uptake (i.e. glucose uptake that doesn't require insulin). The downside is that energy consuming pathways are also inhibited. This includes protein synthesis. AMPK directly inhibits mTOR, which is one of the most downstream signaling proteins regulating protein synthesis.

Basically, when you take metformin, not only are you improving glucose uptake, you're mimicking the cellular signal for "empty," which inhibits things that consume energy, including protein synthesis.


:(

Ha... great blurb, very interesting. I am not sure if there is a way to implement Metformin into a protocol, and somehow avoid the decreased protein synthesis side-effect. The biggest issue is that since protein synthesis trumps carbohydrate metabolism in the scheme of building muscle and improving the physique, Metformin is a hard pressed drug to include.

It would be akin to having a Mustang GT parked next to a Ferrari F-50... until you see the Ferrari you might giggle like a school girl at the new freshly waxed Ford muscle car glistening in the sun, but you soon forget about that pony once you glance to the right and see one of the most marvelous and powerful artistic automobiles ever conceived. Protein v. Carbs, Protein wins... and if Glucophage truly lowers synthesis and as a result new muscle formation, without knowing HOW MUCH it inhibits or lowers synthesis and without being given a method to avoid this unfortunate effect, I'd say I am now convinced Metformin is not useful.

[apex23]

There are many published peer reviewed and clinical controlled studies available regarding Vanadyl Sulfate and its many iterations. Much of the research, aside from some purported poor bio-availability and gastric distress of the sulfate version, seems to be positive and encouraging. I am not swayed either way at this point in time to be honest, but overall if I was forced to make a judgment call at this point in time I would say Vanadyl Sulfate is effective in as much as the dosage remains high (10mg for every 30g carbohydrates as a bare minimum) and it is taken at least 15min prior to ingesting the carbohydrates. I believe slin-sane, Glycobol, i-Load from Art Atwood's company, and a few others are very interesting and should be given some attention and dissected more carefully before shrugging them off to the side.

Also, concerning Metformin, I am also riding the fence on this compound - because for years now, I have heard pretty severe and clearly divided feedback from its users, some claiming it isn't worth the time of day and might actually even lower testosterone and negatively affect your insulin sensitivity and ability to dispose of glucose efficiently over the long run (years), and some say it is like oral insulin in that it allows for a much greater muscle-glycogen loading and uptake capacity, which leads to an overall fuller more vascular physique and lowers the amount of carb conversion to fat tissue after a massive cheat meal...


I have heard good things about the supplement Glycobol. I believe the form of vanadyl is supposed to be a absorbed...BMOV is the form. I know they have a few others forms.

[apex23]

NO I do not have a diabetic friend or family member...I just know where to find it.

You can obtain Acarbose(Glucobay) as a research product for your diabetic rat. Iron-Dragon is legit.

[ivan drago]

I have heard good things about the supplement Glycobol. I believe the form of vanadyl is supposed to be a absorbed...BMOV is the form. I know they have a few others forms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8781301 this study demonstrated a 20% serum level blood sugar decrease with two daily doses of 50mg each (which would be about 5 capsules of almost all currently available VS products) after four weeks of administration.

Just yesterday I actually did find a study that focused on the other versions of VS which are believed to be more tolerable and absorbed over basic VS, such as the versions used in VPX's NP-Shotgun, and Anabolic Innovation's Glycobol (and Twinlab's Super Vanadyl Fuel uses trace amounts as well). BMOV is touched on more in-depth here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12597338 (but uses rats, in stead of humans)

[ivan drago]

NO I do not have a diabetic friend or family member...I just know where to find it.

You can obtain Acarbose(Glucobay) as a research product for your diabetic rat. Iron-Dragon is legit.

I ordered from ID a couple years ago for my research studies on my rats, because my rats just weren't responding well to AG Guys (for reasons we now understand).

I truly appreciate the help - thanks so much. I am heading over there now.

PS: Repped :)

[ivan drago]

The ID site is blocked due to a firewall proxy at my place of work, but I found some info here (http://www.life-extension-drugs.com/glucobay.html (http://www.life-extension-drugs.com/glucobay.html)) looks like it would actually work well in conjunction with Metformin, rather than as a replacement, am I correct or no? Glucobay would steady the spike and overall levels and Metformin would enhance the utilization and absorption into the muscle cell acting as a 1-2 punch to attenuate fat gain (?)

[THE_MANN]

Ivan I have used both Metformin and R-ALA. I bumped metformin to 2.5g spread throughout the day and honestly couldn't tell the difference between when I was using ALA at 800-1000mg prior to my 3 main meals. ALA made my piss smell worse and the metformin made me more sleepy after meals to be honest. Both gave very nice pumps and vascularity, even at my currently high-ish body fat level.

PERSONALLY I will be going with high doses of Na-ALA roughly 2.5-3g (Na being the superior one i belive, i was getting good effects with R so the Na should be even better) per day instead of Metformin even though I have a large supply of metformin left over, because of the protein synthesis and testosterone lowering effects. I remember Conciliator mentioning something about its protein synthesis interruption as well. And for those using the CKD for muscle/strength gains then you want to maximize protein synthesis and make the glycogen super compensationperiod as anabolic as possible, metformin may hinder this from what i have gathered.

[ivan drago]

Ivan I have used both Metformin and R-ALA. I bumped metformin to 2.5g spread throughout the day and honestly couldn't tell the difference between when I was using ALA at 800-1000mg prior to my 3 main meals. ALA made my piss smell worse and the metformin made me more sleepy after meals to be honest. Both gave very nice pumps and vascularity, even at my currently high-ish body fat level.

PERSONALLY I will be going with high doses of Na-ALA roughly 2.5-3g (Na being the superior one i belive, i was getting good effects with R so the Na should be even better) per day instead of Metformin even though I have a large supply of metformin left over, because of the protein synthesis and testosterone lowering effects. I remember Conciliator mentioning something about its protein synthesis interruption as well. And for those using the CKD for muscle/strength gains then you want to maximize protein synthesis and make the glycogen super compensationperiod as anabolic as possible, metformin may hinder this from what i have gathered.

Absolutely awesome information, I'll take feedback like this from experienced users all day long. Thank you so much. I assume you're going with the Na-ALA powder in bulk at those dosages? Very good points coming back to the testosterone interference and lethargy brought about by Metformin, not to mention the protein synthesis negative effects.

It is seldom I find something truly efficacious in the OTC realm... but this far, I can say over all the years I have become a true believer in b-alanine, l-leucine (BCAAs to a greater degree), GPLC, and Creatine monohydrate... I will stay positive and hope to eventually add Na-ALA to that list.

[ivan drago]

I use to think it was worthless but I have been 500mg 2 x day with a higher carb meal and can honestly say that it works when dieting. No, I do not do the low carb type diet.

I can honestly tell that with cardio and weighttraining that my body is even leaner. I also like Acarbos( Glucobay). I know a few bb in my area that use either one and love it.

Do NOT use after a work-out...Metformin blunts IGF-1 levels in the liver.

Hey Apex/others,

I was wondering if you have been using this on a continual basis and could share some more feedback and/or specific dosing and timing protocols with us? What is the time until peak activity after oral ingestion, and do you dose according to carbohydrate content and load of a specific meal (ex: 1 500mg tab for a normal 30-50g carb meal, or 1-1,500mg 3 tabs for a massive cheat meal of pizza and ice cream?)

[ivan drago]

I have used it several times and I thing its a great supp to add in to your regimen. At 1000-1500mgs on my refeed, I will be back in Keto the following morning no problem at all. I will even use it at other times along with my postworkout meals in a similar manor to slin. The fullness brought about by it will be very noticeable and can help keep glycogen levels high in a carb depleted state

So you feel it has a great repartitioning effect as many of the current OTC GDA (over the counter glycogen disposal agents) purport to have or achieve? When you say re-feed, are you speaking about a very planned and calculated/weighed methodical meal, or a cheat meal? I am interested in the overall positive effects Metformin has on keeping blood sugar from spiking to the dramatic point that it imparts fat accumulation (and of course how efficient it is as directing those nutrients and glycogen toward and into the MUSCLE cells, rather than adipocytes) - I would like to look up more studies regarding the percentage of blood glucose lowering or insulin sensitivity enhancement it offers, so I can compare those numbers to the current offering of clinicals pertaining to na-r-ala, banaba (corosolic acid) etc


Forget these so called GDA's...I think Vanadyl is worthless. I know that there are guys that swear by it....but where is the science?

ALA might be legit, but I have read that you have to take 900 mg or higher....

ALA (or the much more powerful, active, and digestible version(s) of r-ala and na-r-ala) does seem to be extremely well tolerated and received by anecdotal reports and a growing lengthy list of validated university research studies.

Vanadyl however seems to have this massive divide among athletes who fall into one camp of thought, either claiming it is a toxic and worthless mineral that will cause cramping and has never been demonstrated as efficacious, or... there are those that cite other studies showing it as safe (in 6-8 week cycles) and can actually lower serum glucose levels by 20% (in a journal publication I linked to earlier in this thread)


I have heard good things about the supplement Glycobol. I believe the form of vanadyl is supposed to be a absorbed...BMOV is the form. I know they have a few others forms.

Actually yes Glycobol is very good and has been the recipient of a multitude of rave reviews and user feedback across many forums... and as much as I also personally submit my own thumbs up regarding this product, I will also say I don't believe any meaningful or controlled relevant studies have ever been conducted on the type of vanadyl included in Glycobol's proprietary blend. I know it is perhaps absorbed better and does not cause any associated gastric distress, but I am unaware of any conclusive human research as been done, especially the type of research that matters most but is seldom performed: 20-40 year old trained healthy non-diabetic males with balanced and healthy hormonal levels


NO I do not have a diabetic friend or family member...I just know where to find it.

You can obtain Acarbose(Glucobay) as a research product for your diabetic rat. Iron-Dragon is legit.

Does Glucobay have any of the associated negatives attributed to Metformin (testosterone interference, IGF buffering and down regulation, lowering of protein synthesis)?


Ivan I have used both Metformin and R-ALA. I bumped metformin to 2.5g spread throughout the day and honestly couldn't tell the difference between when I was using ALA at 800-1000mg prior to my 3 main meals. ALA made my piss smell worse and the metformin made me more sleepy after meals to be honest. Both gave very nice pumps and vascularity, even at my currently high-ish body fat level.

PERSONALLY I will be going with high doses of Na-ALA roughly 2.5-3g (Na being the superior one i belive, i was getting good effects with R so the Na should be even better) per day instead of Metformin even though I have a large supply of metformin left over, because of the protein synthesis and testosterone lowering effects. I remember Conciliator mentioning something about its protein synthesis interruption as well. And for those using the CKD for muscle/strength gains then you want to maximize protein synthesis and make the glycogen super compensationperiod as anabolic as possible, metformin may hinder this from what i have gathered.

Hey Mann, I sent you a PM/reputation for your response - very informative and intriguing. Your feedback is particularly interesting because you have perspective, the ability to compare the realized effects of BOTH Metformin and ALA, the top-offering from the pharmaceutical side and the nutraceutical side. Have you been going through the cycle since you last visited this thread, and would you be able to expand on your thoughts or let us know if you ended up going the higher dosed na-r-ala route (which I'm assuming you'd have purchase from Nutra Planet, Superior Nutraceuticals, Bulk Nutrition, etc unless you're exceedingly wealthy, haha)?


*I wanted to revisit this entire thread and polish some of the finer and more applicable points for what we are all trying to accomplish - which is muscle and strength gain and fat loss. I believe honing in the ability to better utilize your nutrients and actually mastering the ability to direct those nutrients toward the intended tissues to increase endurance, muscle fullness, vascularity, strength etc without the usually associated side-effects of hormonal manipulation, is the most exciting and promising prospect we are presented with.

[THE_MANN]

Thanks Ivan, I didn't receive the PM strangely, if you re-send it I'll gladly give you my thoughts on the subject.

I have ordered my na-r-ala and it should be with me tommorow, I'm going to be running it over the next 12 days, in which my carbs will be gradually going up.

I have realized that when I come off keto (Strict keto, no flavorings, no PB etc, the only carb's I have during keto come from my 200g serving of spinach and 200g of broccoli which is mainly fiber) I am extremely susceptible to major bloat and fat gain. So this time I will be tapering my carbs from 1 apple in the morning to having 100g of carbs divided in the morning and post workout. During this 12 day transitional period I will be using the Na-r-ALA at only 300-600g/day, but after the 12 days I will have a 1 day clean carb up and will bump up the Na r-ala to roughly 900mg before each of my 3 main meals of the day. Ill then do a small depletion and move onto my next cutting phase.

This is all because, my theory is that the na-r-rala will help to avoid oversecretion of insuline and help to make my body respond better to the high influx of carbs than it was doing previously (before I was going from nearly 0carbs to approx 500g and I would swell up by almost 12lb).

EliteFitness have LOADS of good info on ALA, the one I find most interesting is the one below, pay attention to the posts made by rangerx83, I think he was the first to learn how to use ALA effectively and I'm trying to mimic his approach:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/ala-cutting-minimaze-fat-storage-119717.html

And a few more interesting ones, but there is tons more I am missing which are on EF if you search:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/r-ala-powerful-stuff-166238.html

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/r-ala-vs-ala-blood-glucose-impact-analisis-219737.html

Bear in mind that Na-r-ALA is more potent than the others so we should have good results.

One thing which may be worth nothing is this:
On one of CKD runs, during the carb up i used probably 2.5g of r-ALA that day. At 6pm I cut out food and stopped eating/drinking. Before bed I used a ketostick to measure the amount of ketones in my urine, I came up in the DEEP PURPLE section. I was really surprised and this is one thing I haven't been able to explain. I think its possibly due to 2 things:
1.) The enzymes which digest carbohydrates were not fully in gear (As explained in Lyle Mcdonals book) and take some hours to fully work, so my body may not have been processing the carbs in time and I came up as deep ketosis. Could have possibly been producing ketones even during the carb up because I was eating fat? Who knows...apparently you can still burn fat during the carb up.
OR
2.) The r-ALA worked bloody well! lol.

I don't know which of these it is, but I was SHOCKED when i saw dark purple on the keto stick after such a heavy carb day. I dont think r-ALA could shuttle ALL of the carbs(especially because I overate that night - But in saying that, if you eat a small amount of carbs, and the correct type coupled with high dosage of ALA, you may leave your liver un touched, and head into keto veryquickly/easily. Just a thought...) into the muscles and leave the liver in such a depleted state to produce ketones and get into ketones. Which leads me to believe it must have been option 1.)

I tried the same thing using Metformin(fairly high dosage, stopped eating at 6pm and keto test before bed) but the keto stick showed trace when I tested myself. I dont khow what I had done differently or wrong with the metformin so I cant attribute the previous keto stick solely to r-ALA.

But It was very strange, and I will be testing this on my next carb up. If anyone has the answer please do let me khow :D

For referance, I wont use Metformin anymore until someone shows me some info that it dosen't lower protein synthesis and free testosterone to a damaging extent, and It made me semi - 'crash' as I felt very lazy and tired after my meals - This may be due to me just being a little more insuline resistant.

I hope I have sparked some thought here :)



Hey Mann, I sent you a PM/reputation for your response - very informative and intriguing. Your feedback is particularly interesting because you have perspective, the ability to compare the realized effects of BOTH Metformin and ALA, the top-offering from the pharmaceutical side and the nutraceutical side. Have you been going through the cycle since you last visited this thread, and would you be able to expand on your thoughts or let us know if you ended up going the higher dosed na-r-ala route (which I'm assuming you'd have purchase from Nutra Planet, Superior Nutraceuticals, Bulk Nutrition, etc unless you're exceedingly wealthy, haha)?


*I wanted to revisit this entire thread and polish some of the finer and more applicable points for what we are all trying to accomplish - which is muscle and strength gain and fat loss. I believe honing in the ability to better utilize your nutrients and actually mastering the ability to direct those nutrients toward the intended tissues to increase endurance, muscle fullness, vascularity, strength etc without the usually associated side-effects of hormonal manipulation, is the most exciting and promising prospect we are presented with.

[ivan drago]

THANK YOU so much for sharing all of that! :)

I didn't PM you, I checked and what happened was I repped you and in the comments box I asked you about the na-r-ala ;)

Have a great week and I'm going to digest all this great info


Thanks Ivan, I didn't receive the PM strangely, if you re-send it I'll gladly give you my thoughts on the subject.

I have ordered my na-r-ala and it should be with me tommorow, I'm going to be running it over the next 12 days, in which my carbs will be gradually going up.

I have realized that when I come off keto (Strict keto, no flavorings, no PB etc, the only carb's I have during keto come from my 200g serving of spinach and 200g of broccoli which is mainly fiber) I am extremely susceptible to major bloat and fat gain. So this time I will be tapering my carbs from 1 apple in the morning to having 100g of carbs divided in the morning and post workout. During this 12 day transitional period I will be using the Na-r-ALA at only 300-600g/day, but after the 12 days I will have a 1 day clean carb up and will bump up the Na r-ala to roughly 900mg before each of my 3 main meals of the day. Ill then do a small depletion and move onto my next cutting phase.

This is all because, my theory is that the na-r-rala will help to avoid oversecretion of insuline and help to make my body respond better to the high influx of carbs than it was doing previously (before I was going from nearly 0carbs to approx 500g and I would swell up by almost 12lb).

EliteFitness have LOADS of good info on ALA, the one I find most interesting is the one below, pay attention to the posts made by rangerx83, I think he was the first to learn how to use ALA effectively and I'm trying to mimic his approach:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/ala-cutting-minimaze-fat-storage-119717.html

And a few more interesting ones, but there is tons more I am missing which are on EF if you search:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/r-ala-powerful-stuff-166238.html

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/r-ala-vs-ala-blood-glucose-impact-analisis-219737.html

Bear in mind that Na-r-ALA is more potent than the others so we should have good results.

One thing which may be worth nothing is this:
On one of CKD runs, during the carb up i used probably 2.5g of r-ALA that day. At 6pm I cut out food and stopped eating/drinking. Before bed I used a ketostick to measure the amount of ketones in my urine, I came up in the DEEP PURPLE section. I was really surprised and this is one thing I haven't been able to explain. I think its possibly due to 2 things:
1.) The enzymes which digest carbohydrates were not fully in gear (As explained in Lyle Mcdonals book) and take some hours to fully work, so my body may not have been processing the carbs in time and I came up as deep ketosis. Could have possibly been producing ketones even during the carb up because I was eating fat? Who knows...apparently you can still burn fat during the carb up.
OR
2.) The r-ALA worked bloody well! lol.

I don't know which of these it is, but I was SHOCKED when i saw dark purple on the keto stick after such a heavy carb day. I dont think r-ALA could shuttle ALL of the carbs(especially because I overate that night - But in saying that, if you eat a small amount of carbs, and the correct type coupled with high dosage of ALA, you may leave your liver un touched, and head into keto veryquickly/easily. Just a thought...) into the muscles and leave the liver in such a depleted state to produce ketones and get into ketones. Which leads me to believe it must have been option 1.)

I tried the same thing using Metformin(fairly high dosage, stopped eating at 6pm and keto test before bed) but the keto stick showed trace when I tested myself. I dont khow what I had done differently or wrong with the metformin so I cant attribute the previous keto stick solely to r-ALA.

But It was very strange, and I will be testing this on my next carb up. If anyone has the answer please do let me khow :D

For referance, I wont use Metformin anymore until someone shows me some info that it dosen't lower protein synthesis and free testosterone to a damaging extent, and It made me semi - 'crash' as I felt very lazy and tired after my meals - This may be due to me just being a little more insuline resistant.

I hope I have sparked some thought here :)

[Conciliator]

Here is some information. By the way I did not write this and I am not sure who did or I would give credit.

People should understand that metformin's primary mode of action is activation of AMPK. AMPK is like a very sensitive cellular fuel gauge. The higher the level of AMPK, the stronger the signal of "empty." The result of increasing AMPK is that energy producing pathways are promoted and energy consuming pathways are inhibited.

The good news is along the lines of energy producing pathways. AMPK increases insulin sensitivity, enhances glucose uptake, increases fatty acid oxidation, and stimulates insulin-independent glucose uptake (i.e. glucose uptake that doesn't require insulin). The downside is that energy consuming pathways are also inhibited. This includes protein synthesis. AMPK directly inhibts mTOR, which is one of the most downstream signaling proteins regulating protein synthesis.

Basically, when you take metformin, not only are you improving glucose uptake, you're mimicking the cellular signal for "empty," which inhibits things that consume energy, including protein synthesis.I wrote that over on Pro Muscle. Glad to see it making rounds.

[Conciliator]

Does that mean that while on metformin protein intake needs to be increased??No, it means metformin may very well inhibit muscle growth. The same goes for other compounds that work by activating AMPK (at least in part), including AICAR, DNP, and ALA.

[BigJD69]

No, it means metformin may very well inhibit muscle growth. The same goes for other compounds that work by activating AMPK (at least in part), including AICAR, DNP, and ALA.
Thanks I repped cha!

[Bluestorm]

I've used metformin quiet a few times. At best it is good for dieting when you have unscheduled cheat meals. Glucose disposal and insulin sensitivity are the two perks I find it useful for. I've used it at times when going out with friends for lunch and the places they pick are horrible choices for anyone trying to avoid total crap!
I've never noticed any benefit of great pumps or anything of that caliber.
Metformins effects on insulin sensitivity are certainly noticeable when you come off of it. Fat gain is extremely easy when you are consuming carbs. My sensitivity to carbs is multiplied many times over.
For the most part, I would simply take one tab(500mg)right before a high carb meal. I'd have to look the info up, but I believe it stays active for 7 hours. If you have the XR(extended relief) form of Metformin, it's effects last a lot longer. I never felt the need to go any higher no matter if I had 2 or even 3 large carb meals in one day.

It does take a little time to adjust to it. Stomach upset and gas are pretty bad when I first start using Metformin. Around the second week, it usually goes away.

[apex23]

yeah, you will shit your brains out at first but then your body adjust to it.

I take 500 mg 2 x a day.

[Bigbench1]

The effects of Metformin on AMPK and test production are not anything to concern about. During exercise AMPK production is already present as ATP stores are lowered. At which point, protein synthesis is already inhibited even in the absence of Met or ALA. The body converts to replinishing its main energy stores which is glycogen. This rise in AMPK only lasts for up to one hour post workout (until glycogensis is complete) and then the shift back to increased protein synthesis due to teh activation of protein kinase B, mTOR, S6K1 and eEF2 occurs.
Also remember that the inhibition of protein synthesis is NOT the same as protein oxidation and therefore muscle is not being burned to replenish energy stores. It is merely "on hold". During this time, its almost irrelevant as protein digestion and absorption is occurring during this time period which will allow for aminos to be circulating during the time period of increased protein synthesis (1-48hrs pwo).
Also, because of its increase in glucose uptake and its inactivation of ACC, more fattty acids are broken down and transported to the bloodstream to be utilized for fuel. So, even after the ingestion of carbs, your body is still in a state that fat is its primary fuel source (for those who need to do cardio pwo).
And Ivan yes, I use this for my planned out refeed as EVERY meal is planned out, even if I go out to eat.
When using this (in particular with a keto diet) I find I am really never out of ketosis, yet at the same time, my muscles never lose fullness as muscle glycogen retention is maintained at a much better rate. Especially when adapting to a rep range that will stimulate hypertrophy without depleting glycogen stores to a large degree

[Conciliator]

The effects of Metformin on AMPK and test production are not anything to concern about. During exercise AMPK production is already present as ATP stores are lowered. At which point, protein synthesis is already inhibited even in the absence of Met or ALA. The body converts to replinishing its main energy stores which is glycogen. This rise in AMPK only lasts for up to one hour post workout (until glycogensis is complete) and then the shift back to increased protein synthesis due to teh activation of protein kinase B, mTOR, S6K1 and eEF2 occurs. This is not logical at all. You're arguing that since AMPK is transiently elevated during exercise, therefore it's of no concern to elevate it chronically with metformin. In other words, since exercise itself is anti-anabolic/catabolic, therefore it's not anything to be concerned about if you put yourself in that state around the clock? Are you kidding? Because that's what your argument is.

Also remember that the inhibition of protein synthesis is NOT the same as protein oxidation and therefore muscle is not being burned to replenish energy stores. It is merely "on hold". During this time, its almost irrelevant as protein digestion and absorption is occurring during this time period which will allow for aminos to be circulating during the time period of increased protein synthesis (1-48hrs pwo).It appears you're not aware that mTOR not only regulates protein synthesis, but also protein breakdown, or proteolysis. If you inhibit mTOR, you not only inhibit protein synthesis, you also increase protein breakdown.

So, even after the ingestion of carbs, your body is still in a state that fat is its primary fuel source (for those who need to do cardio pwo). What evidence do you have that elevating AMPK will make fat the primary fuel source even after the ingestion of carbs?

[spritz0]

I have used it several times and I thing its a great supp to add in to your regimen. At 1000-1500mgs on my refeed, I will be back in Keto the following morning no problem at all. I will even use it at other times along with my postworkout meals in a similar manor to slin. The fullness brought about by it will be very noticeable and can help keep glycogen levels high in a carb depleted state
Do you take it with your cheat meal or after? How many to achieve Keto? We probably have VERY similar cheat meals...:drool: