switching to bikini

[tammyp]

alicia maria and jelena abbou are added to the list

[GirlyMuscle]

Ugh. I don't get why women are stepping backwards. What's the deal?

[Gaoshang Xiongshou]

:dunno:

[Ibarramedia]

Ugh. I don't get why women are stepping backwards. What's the deal?

Perhaps interviews are in order to get to the bottom of this.

[LIFTstudios]

Ugh. I don't get why women are stepping backwards. What's the deal?

Why would you say it's "stepping backwards"?

:dunno:

[GirlyMuscle]

Because if someone is already competing in bbing or figure they'd probably have to lose muscle in order to do good bikini. I'm not saying it's a step back socially but physically. In most cases the girl would have to lose muscle, something she's probably worked pretty damned hard for, to compete in bikini.

[Tuffgirl410]

I think its a good thing... it will help set the standard for bikini-- Jelena has such a beautiful body- sad to see her leave figure, but excited to see what she can do for bikini!

[Tre]

Let's see, you can do less work, for the same money, and still have a hot body...?

I'm thinking a good number of people would choose that option.

[GirlyMuscle]

Well, when you put it like that. :)

Still, I wouldn't be happy doing less work. It's just not how I'm wired.

[The Big Sexy]

Jalena's physique never really appealed to me in figure. Her butt always seemed a bit soft... I think she would be perfect for bikini, however. Or hell... who knows now... I can't tell some of the bikini athletes from the figure anymore.

[GirlyMuscle]

Jelena does have the tiniest waist I've ever seen.

http://www.figurerx.com/Photos/Forums/JelenaAbbou1a.jpg

[GirlyMuscle]

I'm guessing this is more her bikini look...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9vHBjgViiTQ/StzVER8J21I/AAAAAAAAFuA/onqK3ar53OA/s400/Jelena-Abbou-4.jpg

[Gerb]

Personally, I think it is BS that an IFBB athlete can crossover to a different category, in theory, a figure girl can decide she wants a different look, more jacked, and switch over to BBing. A girl can get a Bikini Pro card and then decide to move up to the Pro Figure ranks when she may never have even been able to earn the card in the first place on the National NPC level. None of that should be possible.

[sassy69]

Given the very fine line between the figure look and the bikini look, along w/ the continued BS in the figure competitive judging criteria, frankly Bikini is the only option that looks like "fun". And let's face it, its probably got a lot more mainstream opportunity and attraction than even Figure these days.

As far as crossing over, yea I'd like to see some really clearly defined criteria and rules about it so its not so freeking easy to just move around the different categories. If the lines are so fuzzy between them, the value of each just starts to diminish.

[sassy69]

I'm guessing this is more her bikini look...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9vHBjgViiTQ/StzVER8J21I/AAAAAAAAFuA/onqK3ar53OA/s400/Jelena-Abbou-4.jpg


She could go from the figure look to this bikini look by eating a couple HoHo's - a little water retention and hang out for a few days, and its there. She has the long lean body for it and would probably have a hard time bulking up to go "Up" instead of "Down".

[sassy69]

Ugh. I don't get why women are stepping backwards. What's the deal?


Spoken like a true BB! LOL Like Miss Haley - I WANNA GET BIG! :yep:

How do we measure ourselves? By size and strength. Its a TOTALLY different mindset for Bikini where the look is the driver, not the stuff behind the scenes at the gym. COmpletely different mindset (and completely foreign to some of us LOL!)

[Sandpig]

Let's see, you can do less work, for the same money, and still have a hot body...?

I'm thinking a good number of people would choose that option.

For sure, they won't have to diet as hard.

[~gymdiva~]

Given the very fine line between the figure look and the bikini look, along w/ the continued BS in the figure competitive judging criteria, frankly Bikini is the only option that looks like "fun". And let's face it, its probably got a lot more mainstream opportunity and attraction than even Figure these days.

THIS!!!!


As far as crossing over, yea I'd like to see some really clearly defined criteria and rules about it so its not so freeking easy to just move around the different categories. If the lines are so fuzzy between them, the value of each just starts to diminish.


crossing over doesn't bother me at all....you've worked hard for a pro card....go do what makes you happy! plus it's fun to try something different from time to time....

[ob205]

"It's a Man's world" - James Brown Sad, but true and unfortunately they set the standard and definition of what these categories should be regardless of what the women think or want. The whole female side seem exploitative to me, similar to the NFL making billions and paying cheerleaders $50 a game.

The men (organization) say "this is how it is, take it or leave it," and the women line up in droves to pay into this nonsense.

[Gerb]

THIS!!!!




crossing over doesn't bother me at all....you've worked hard for a pro card....go do what makes you happy! plus it's fun to try something different from time to time....

you don't see anything wrong with a girl getting a Bikini Pro card and then competing in Pro Figure instead?

[Tu Holmes]

It's just simple economics... They will probably make more money and have a larger fan base if they are bikini girls as opposed to female bodybuilders.

Let's say they have fans... perhaps websites... maybe they want to do magazine shoots.

Do you think there are more opportunities for them as bikini girls or female bodybuilders?

Maybe they want to get into acting... The bikini look will work a lot more for them and their potential financial future.

[~gymdiva~]

no not really....bad example since there's not much to compare with but I'd have no issues with a guy scaling down and crossing over to the 202 instead....very few men or women just waltz in and get a pro card in any division so it's always going to take hard work to get to that level....once they're there I say if they want to branch out and go a different direction then more power to them....as for bikini and figure specifically, that line is so beyond blurred right now I'm still asking what's the difference?

[Gerb]

no not really....bad example since there's not much to compare with but I'd have no issues with a guy scaling down and crossing over to the 202 instead....very few men or women just waltz in and get a pro card in any division so it's always going to take hard work to get to that level....once they're there I say if they want to branch out and go a different direction then more power to them....as for bikini and figure specifically, that line is so beyond blurred right now I'm still asking what's the difference?

that is cool, I can respect that, I disagree but I understand your point of view

[~gymdiva~]

same of your's....I used to have mixed feelings about fitness gals going to figure but then I was like well, if they're working through injuries, blah blah.....but Carla Salotti really changed my mind about crossing over when I heard her talk about doing a figure show even though she's a bbing pro....now since she was always a LW it's a little different than say, Iris crossing over! hahaha :D but she was so genuinely excited to just try a different form of training and presentation that I thought well, maybe crossovers aren't such a bad thing!

[Suzanne]

It's just simple economics... They will probably make more money and have a larger fan base if they are bikini girls as opposed to female bodybuilders.

Let's say they have fans... perhaps websites... maybe they want to do magazine shoots.

Do you think there are more opportunities for them as bikini girls or female bodybuilders?

Maybe they want to get into acting... The bikini look will work a lot more for them and their potential financial future.

it is a mindset no one who is a bber at heart will scale down to bikini to get a fan base

the bbers i know do it for one reason themselves because they love it and finds passion in the training, making improvements.

[Tu Holmes]

it is a mindset no one who is a bber at heart will scale down to bikini to get a fan base

the bbers i know do it for one reason themselves because they love it and finds passion in the training, making improvements.

Well, I can understand where you're coming from... but let's be honest.

Do you try to become a "pro" bodybuilder just because you like to lift?

Hell no... you become a "pro" to be a "PROfessional" which means to get paid.

I'm not saying that money is the only reason, but you can't tell me that it's got nothing to do with it.

After some amount of time, people feel they need to eat... So they do what they have to.

[sassy69]

THIS!!!!




crossing over doesn't bother me at all....you've worked hard for a pro card....go do what makes you happy! plus it's fun to try something different from time to time....


Not to be a shit, but I think people don't work all that hard for a bikini pro card and work harder for a figure pro card. That's telling me that all pro cards are equal (and we know that's not true in terms of investment of time & money, bikini to figure to fitness to BB).

I guess my point is that if they are trying to make these distinct classes, make them distinct classes.

But also since I'm just some dork on the internet, my opinion ain't going to change things, so cross over to your heart's content :)

[Aaron Singerman]

When I read the title of this thread I though it must be a joke... Tammy switching over to Bikini?!?!

[sassy69]

Well, I can understand where you're coming from... but let's be honest.

Do you try to become a "pro" bodybuilder just because you like to lift?

Hell no... you become a "pro" to be a "PROfessional" which means to get paid.

I'm not saying that money is the only reason, but you can't tell me that it's got nothing to do with it.

After some amount of time, people feel they need to eat... So they do what they have to.

I think FBBs have pretty much come to understand that there's no money in becoming a pro unless you're the top of the top - the money you'll spend getting there will 99% for sure, never be recouped. At least for FBB, PRO CARD means the pinnacle of the sport, at least to those within the sport. Outside the sport it is more perceived as you've traded in your ticket in the audience of a freakshow, to become part of the freak show.

[Tu Holmes]

I think FBBs have pretty much come to understand that there's no money in becoming a pro unless you're the top of the top - the money you'll spend getting there will 99% for sure, never be recouped. At least for FBB, PRO CARD means the pinnacle of the sport, at least to those within the sport. Outside the sport it is more perceived as you've traded in your ticket in the audience of a freakshow, to become part of the freak show.
Doesn't seem like a great use of time to do a show then.

:/

[Ibarramedia]

Not to be a shit, but I think people don't work all that hard for a bikini pro card and work harder for a figure pro card. That's telling me that all pro cards are equal (and we know that's not true in terms of investment of time & money, bikini to figure to fitness to BB).

I guess my point is that if they are trying to make these distinct classes, make them distinct classes.

But also since I'm just some dork on the internet, my opinion ain't going to change things, so cross over to your heart's content :)


I have no problem with competitors switching divisions or classes provided they present the appropriate physique. I do have a problem with competitors entering multiple divisions or classes at the same contest. Now that is crazy and inconsistent. No one is a chameleon that can change their physique in minutes. And it is not a matter of them just putting on their transparent heels. I have read somewhere here that some competitor entered a bikini,figure and fbb competition in the same contest. :dunno: A big WTF?!?!

[Suzanne]

Well, I can understand where you're coming from... but let's be honest.

Do you try to become a "pro" bodybuilder just because you like to lift?

Hell no... you become a "pro" to be a "PROfessional" which means to get paid.

I'm not saying that money is the only reason, but you can't tell me that it's got nothing to do with it.

After some amount of time, people feel they need to eat... So they do what they have to.

actually no money has zero to do with why i compete

even the top FBBers like Iris don't make much. So no the possibilibly of winning $3000-6000 at a show has nothing to do with fuck i pay well more than that prepping, traveling, shit makeup alone is $350 for the weekend

No i do it for the achievement and self satisfaction :)

If i get a pro card it is all about accomplishing going form significantly overweight to bikini look to starting to compete and to have worked hard enough to be a pro fbber and then i will compete as a pro for the love of it and to bring my best every time. Sure i ABSOLUTELY want to win but $ never crossed my mind

[Suzanne]

Not to be a shit, but I think people don't work all that hard for a bikini pro card and work harder for a figure pro card. That's telling me that all pro cards are equal (and we know that's not true in terms of investment of time & money, bikini to figure to fitness to BB).

I guess my point is that if they are trying to make these distinct classes, make them distinct classes.

But also since I'm just some dork on the internet, my opinion ain't going to change things, so cross over to your heart's content :)

When there are so few bbing pro cards given out no one should be able to compete in bbing unless that is how you got your card

[tiramisu]

I'm guessing women are crossing over to bikini because they think they can be competive and because they prefer the look.

Pretty much the same reason women cross over into any of the other disciplines.

[MsGuns]

Good for them...
I luv when the men come in and tell us why its not fair...lol

[sassy69]

When there are so few bbing pro cards given out no one should be able to compete in bbing unless that is how you got your card


That would be interesting to see tho .. Bikini pro this week, FBB pro next week. I can just see the Case Study publication in the New England Medical Journal.

[Suzanne]

That would be interesting to see tho .. Bikini pro this week, FBB pro next week. I can just see the Case Study publication in the New England Medical Journal.

i was tiny like bikini when i first started out prepping in 2002 for first show :hypno:
I just didn't have the boobs then or pretty face and great hair lol

but even tiny i was a bber at heart :yep:

[MsGuns]

I believe competitors can compete in the different divisions...I didnt think so but was corrected either here or on MD in another bikini/figure discussion.

[Gerb]

Good for them...
I luv when the men come in and tell us why its not fair...lol

it is out of my respect for the hard work that FBBers put into their sport and the extreme level of dediction required to achieve a Pro Card via FBBing that I disagree with the crossover rule. I am not telling women what is fair, the IFBB tells you that and currently they say it is fair. I am simply stating my opinion that it cheapens the hardwork of the higher level discipline by allowing a lower level discipline to crossover.

[MsGuns]

it is out of my respect for the hard work that FBBers put into their sport and the extreme level of dediction required to achieve a Pro Card via FBBing that I disagree with the crossover rule. I am not telling women what is fair, the IFBB tells you that and currently they say it is fair. I am simply stating my opinion that it cheapens the hardwork of the higher level discipline by allowing a lower level discipline to crossover.

Bikini gurls work hard too...I dont get why they dont get the credit.
You dont have to reply, I dont want this to turn into ANOTHER bikini bashing thread...SMH!

IMO Bikini gurls dont effect Fbbs, figure or fitness...they are all different divisions.

[The Big Sexy]

I like bikini ... they make the shows seem a lot more entertaining!!!!

[GirlyMuscle]

Good for them...
I luv when the men come in and tell us why its not fair...lol

I think Steve knows a little more than the average man. After all, he's married to and trains with an amazing female bodybuilder.

[Sledge]

Bikini is just going to be the next big bitch fest. The lines are already more blured than figure and look what a shitstorm that is. What happened to no capped delts, not even a year old and the judges cant stick to it. The IFBB and the judges have no idea what to look for in judging because their are no rules or guidelines that they are required to follow.

[Sledge]

Good for them...
I luv when the men come in and tell us why its not fair...lol

Yeah because bikini is for women not men....right. Give me a break, this class has as much to do with women as strip clubs. Men invented it, men run it, it's judged on what men like and the men will be funding it. And men will be deciding whats fair and whats not.

[MsGuns]

Yeah because bikini is for women not men....right. Give me a break, this class has as much to do with women as strip clubs. Men invented it, men run it, it's judged on what men like and the men will be funding it. And men will be deciding whats fair and whats not.

ok boss...lol

[Suzanne]

Bikini gurls work hard too...I dont get why they dont get the credit.
You dont have to reply, I dont want this to turn into ANOTHER bikini bashing thread...SMH!

IMO Bikini gurls dont effect Fbbs, figure or fitness...they are all different divisions.

we are talking about cross over. It is harder to qualify for national lever as a bber and they are significantly less pro cards given out for bbing so if you didn't earn it as a bber you should not be able to cross to bbing as a pro

I also don't think if you qualify as bikini, figure or bbing you should be able to do fitness. Part of getting fitness pro card was a routine that you did to EARN that fitness procard. Why should someone who didnt' have to do a routine suddenly be able to compete in fitness

keep them separate

[Sledge]

ok boss...lol

I like that attitude in a woman. Keep it up. :p

[MsGuns]

we are talking about cross over. It is harder to qualify for national lever as a bber and they are significantly less pro cards given out for bbing so if you didn't earn it as a bber you should not be able to cross to bbing as a pro

I also don't think if you qualify as bikini, figure or bbing you should be able to do fitness. Part of getting fitness pro card was a routine that you did to EARN that fitness procard. Why should someone who didnt' have to do a routine suddenly be able to compete in fitness

keep them separate

Now in fitness w/ the new rule they dont have to do any special moves...

[sassy69]

i was tiny like bikini when i first started out prepping in 2002 for first show :hypno:
I just didn't have the boobs then or pretty face and great hair lol

but even tiny i was a bber at heart :yep:


"Tiny" is not a word that has EVER been used to describe me.

[fitmomma3]

given the very fine line between the figure look and the bikini look, along w/ the continued bs in the figure competitive judging criteria, frankly bikini is the only option that looks like "fun". And let's face it, its probably got a lot more mainstream opportunity and attraction than even figure these days.

as far as crossing over, yea i'd like to see some really clearly defined criteria and rules about it so its not so freeking easy to just move around the different categories. If the lines are so fuzzy between them, the value of each just starts to diminish.exactly!!!

[fitmomma3]

you don't see anything wrong with a girl getting a Bikini Pro card and then competing in Pro Figure instead? I agree that the crossing over should NOT be allowed at the pro level at the very least make them a nationally qualified competitor and take it from there. Just because someone's an NFL star player doesn't mean they can just hop onto an MLB team... I know its not quite the same but still, sure they're probably VERY athletic, and even very good players, but one doesn't automatically transfer equally to the other. If you won a pro card in a division you should be a pro in THAT division period. Now I can't at all fault the athletes that switch because if the rules allow it they have every right to!

[The Big Sexy]

Now in fitness w/ the new rule they dont have to do any special moves...

Not at the NPC level - but in the IFBB they do. It's all a ruse to get people to enter at the NPC level. There is no chance those girls - no matter how much they shake it - will beat out a girl at the national level who is going to perform the mandatory moves.

You will get tons of girls entering to try and turn pro (with less competition) and still not do it. No way the IFBB will bring in pro fitness girls who cannot do the mandatory moves.

If they do - then the entire sport is shot... because that girl will get DQ'd at the pro level.

[fitmomma3]

it is a mindset no one who is a bber at heart will scale down to bikini to get a fan base

the bbers i know do it for one reason themselves because they love it and finds passion in the training, making improvements.sorry but when everyone's talking about their division its all butterflies and rainbows... last I checked they're are plenty of BBs that do it for promotion of their webcams/shmoe sites, business etc.

[The Big Sexy]

sorry but when everyone's talking about their division its all butterflies and rainbows... last I checked they're are plenty of BBs that do it for promotion of their webcams/shmoe sites, business etc.

Link for your shmoe site please...

[fitmomma3]

no not really....bad example since there's not much to compare with but I'd have no issues with a guy scaling down and crossing over to the 202 instead....very few men or women just waltz in and get a pro card in any division so it's always going to take hard work to get to that level....once they're there I say if they want to branch out and go a different direction then more power to them....as for bikini and figure specifically, that line is so beyond blurred right now I'm still asking what's the difference?
unfortunately this is not true anymore, with bikini many women waltz in to bikini and got pro cards right away I don't want to start singling people out because again they are simply playing by the rules but it's happened more than a handful of times this year. Even woman with great genetics have waltzed into figure and got them look at Andrea Watson (I feel comfortable using her because she looks freakin fabulous! lol)

[fitmomma3]

Link for your shmoe site please...ugggg... I would rather have my eye balls pecked out by pigeons! *too lazy to look for the vomit smilie*

[PJ BRAUN]

I think its a good thing... it will help set the standard for bikini-- Jelena has such a beautiful body- sad to see her leave figure, but excited to see what she can do for bikini!
I agree, I allways thought Jelena had such a gorgeous shape that just wasnt right for figure. I think she will Kick ass in bikini.

[~gymdiva~]

Just because someone's an NFL star player doesn't mean they can just hop onto an MLB team... I know its not quite the same but still, sure they're probably VERY athletic, and even very good players, but one doesn't automatically transfer equally to the other.


well then you don't know Bo :p

[fitmomma3]

well then you don't know Bo :pWHAT THE HELLLL is going on in your AVI?!?!?!:drool:

[~gymdiva~]

:lmao: um, me having fun with the webcam :D

[fitmomma3]

oh well... have fun!! carry on... nice back/waist/bum ratio going on there!!! holy hottness!

[fitmomma3]

and not to get off track you distracted me... BO was one of a kind I'm pretty sure we will be safe to not have that CALIBER that can cross so easily in the IFBB I could eat those words, but I THINK I"m safe. Again it's no disrespect to the pros who switch if its allowed its all good, I think the federation is allowing it because its a privilege to be a pro and they feel they have the right once they earn that card. But I do feel maybe with the addition of bikini there may be some type of separation rule... who knows.

[~gymdiva~]

(Deion did it, too)




ok I'll stop ;)

[MsGuns]

MJ did it too...bb to baseball...

[fitmomma3]

ok come on but you can name them, how many MAYBE 10 if your lucky over how many years and they were usually never as good at the second sport no? I can name at least 20 in IFBB that have crossed over and its a MUCH SMALLER scale.

[~gymdiva~]

ok fine, I'll get back on topic....since so many seem defensive in regards to fbb, who has crossed over to it? not being a smartass about it....I just genuinely can't think of someone who has crossed over to bbing after earning a procard in another division....

[Gerb]

ok fine, I'll get back on topic....since so many seem defensive in regards to fbb, who has crossed over to it? not being a smartass about it....I just genuinely can't think of someone who has crossed over to bbing after earning a procard in another division....

I got a name ... give me a moment, she competed at the Tampa Pro last year, I got to find it.

[Gerb]

Nicole Acker I believe

[fitmomma3]

not many cross over to FBB I don't think usually, I know of one competitor that did a few years back and people loss there minds about it I wanna say her last name started with a Z cute little thing... its usually some not a ton from FBB to figure... lately its been from bikini to figure or figure to bikini or even fitness to figure or from bikini to fitness... my main issue is the numbers game alone.

Lets take fitness for instance now logic would tell you fitness is the hardest with the routine physique etc, but in actuality many girls try for there pro card in figure for years and it's not until they cross over do they get it in fitness, the added creativity/performance factor boosts their scores and then the number of competitors in fitness for a while was far less than figure. So pro card in fitness, and then cross over to figure and drop the routine, does that seem fair? Or lets take bikini, the numbers starting out where MUCH smaller, and the division was new, so pro card in bikini and then cross over in figure voila or even fitness for fun... doesn't seem right to me... again NOT the athletes faults it is what it is. BUt you have the Pamela Sopers, the Chrissy Burtons, ummmm I'm out of the loop kind of but the girls who had been top level for years being passed by by new bikini pros... again now I'm not gonna say names because I'm not a fan of singling people out.

Now in regards to this particular thread Jelena and Alicia come on I AM 100% positive that they would smoke any national bikini comp so its not really an issue, but if they do make it a rule it has to be across the board.

[MsGuns]

Alicia Marie was suppose to compete in the Culver City Muscle Contess Pro show...let me check the results.

[sassy69]

My point on cross-overs w/ pro cards- a pro card was earned in a certain category. Women's physique has enough trouble keeping a clear definition of the categories as it is, so the "brand" value is diminishing and the whole thing is becoming this bucket of "women's physique" and within it, the weird looking FBBs who everyone ignores or stares at, the Figure girls who are now told to come in "softer" and the new and exciting Bikini girls who are only missing the stripper pole. If you want to bother w/ any of it make the definitions and judging criteria clear.

If it doesn't matter what category you came into then, goddammit, if I get a pro card, I'm gonna cross over to the men's 202 category.

I personally like clearly delineated lines, but that's just me. The primary point is money and getting new entrants at the amateur level. It just feels like a free-for-all w/ new categories that aren't completely defined and all this arguing about who "deserves" a pro card. I'm sorry but you CANNOT tell me a bikini girl works harder to meet the judging criteria than an FBB. Its not 16 weeks, its friggen years of building and THEN 16 weeks. But no one really cares because, despite the 30 yrs of mens & 20 yrs of history in bodybuilding that is the history & heritage of the "IFBB Pro Card", the association remains but it doesn't really represent the pinnacle of a sport that is a lifelong pursuit anymore. So... whatev.

I really don't know what is the point of any of the arguments because its only the federation(s) that can make any change actually come about, and if they have no motivation (i.e money) to do so, why bother? It be what it be.

And why do FBBs do it all for no money? I can't speak for others, but for me its one available outlet for me to focus the training that I'd be doing anyway, and have been doing for nearly 30 yrs. Its a contrived measure of something that indicates "competition" for "something" that gives me a reason to step up my focus. Its a chance to share what is a very private pursuit with others who have a common passion, its a chance to do something different w/ your physique and present it, some degree of physical expression (via posing & routine). Ocassionally you get to do something fun w/ it, make a few bucks or whatever. That's about the size of it. Its an interesting conversation starter.

[Gerb]

My point on cross-overs w/ pro cards- a pro card was earned in a certain category. Women's physique has enough trouble keeping a clear definition of the categories as it is, so the "brand" value is diminishing and the whole thing is becoming this bucket of "women's physique" and within it, the weird looking FBBs who everyone ignores or stares at, the Figure girls who are now told to come in "softer" and the new and exciting Bikini girls who are only missing the stripper pole. If you want to bother w/ any of it make the definitions and judging criteria clear.

If it doesn't matter what category you came into then, goddammit, if I get a pro card, I'm gonna cross over to the men's 202 category.

I personally like clearly delineated lines, but that's just me. The primary point is money and getting new entrants at the amateur level. It just feels like a free-for-all w/ new categories that aren't completely defined and all this arguing about who "deserves" a pro card. I'm sorry but you CANNOT tell me a bikini girl works harder to meet the judging criteria than an FBB. Its not 16 weeks, its friggen years of building and THEN 16 weeks. But no one really cares because, despite the 30 yrs of mens & 20 yrs of history in bodybuilding that is the history & heritage of the "IFBB Pro Card", the association remains but it doesn't really represent the pinnacle of a sport that is a lifelong pursuit anymore. So... whatev.

I really don't know what is the point of any of the arguments because its only the federation(s) that can make any change actually come about, and if they have no motivation (i.e money) to do so, why bother? It be what it be.

And why do FBBs do it all for no money? I can't speak for others, but for me its one available outlet for me to focus the training that I'd be doing anyway, and have been doing for nearly 30 yrs. Its a contrived measure of something that indicates "competition" for "something" that gives me a reason to step up my focus. Its a chance to share what is a very private pursuit with others who have a common passion, its a chance to do something different w/ your physique and present it, some degree of physical expression (via posing & routine). Ocassionally you get to do something fun w/ it, make a few bucks or whatever. That's about the size of it. Its an interesting conversation starter.

great post, reps after I spread them

[The Big Sexy]

MJ did it too...bb to baseball...

Other notable NFL/MLB players was Deon "Prime Time" Sanders and DJ Dozier (not very well known but played for the Vikings/Lions and the NY Mets)

Also - many don't know this but Danny Ainge played for the Toronto Blue Jays before going on to win a championship with the Boston Celtics.

[Gerb]

http://www.hofmag.com/content/view/1256/60/

[GirlyMuscle]

ok fine, I'll get back on topic....since so many seem defensive in regards to fbb, who has crossed over to it? not being a smartass about it....I just genuinely can't think of someone who has crossed over to bbing after earning a procard in another division....

Karen Zaremba. IFBB figure pro. Once she had her pro card crossed over to bbing. She's tiny...wasn't very sucessful.


Edit: Turned pro at 2005 Nationals Figure, finishing second in Class A. Competed as a lightweight BBer, at the 2007 Europa, finishing 8th.

[fitmomma3]

thank you GM I knew it started with a Z lol

[Suzanne]

sorry but when everyone's talking about their division its all butterflies and rainbows... last I checked they're are plenty of BBs that do it for promotion of their webcams/shmoe sites, business etc.

what exactly does webcam have to do with what i was answering? which is bbers do not go for pro card to make a living on prize money, modeling etc since there is no money to be made as a pro bber. I was adressngn this is response to the claim that people may go to bikini for more opportunities modeling, magazine, contest money. That these were not why most people who are body builders go into the sport

First- you don't have to be a pro to do webcam
Second-i highly doubt anyone said to themselves hmmm if i just put on a shitload of muscle i can make money doing webcam

webcam has nothing to do with why someone would pursue a pro card

I am pretty sure for those who do it it came after deciding they wanted to have muscle

[Suzanne]

My point on cross-overs w/ pro cards- a pro card was earned in a certain category. Women's physique has enough trouble keeping a clear definition of the categories as it is, so the "brand" value is diminishing and the whole thing is becoming this bucket of "women's physique" and within it, the weird looking FBBs who everyone ignores or stares at, the Figure girls who are now told to come in "softer" and the new and exciting Bikini girls who are only missing the stripper pole. If you want to bother w/ any of it make the definitions and judging criteria clear.

If it doesn't matter what category you came into then, goddammit, if I get a pro card, I'm gonna cross over to the men's 202 category.

I personally like clearly delineated lines, but that's just me. The primary point is money and getting new entrants at the amateur level. It just feels like a free-for-all w/ new categories that aren't completely defined and all this arguing about who "deserves" a pro card. I'm sorry but you CANNOT tell me a bikini girl works harder to meet the judging criteria than an FBB. Its not 16 weeks, its friggen years of building and THEN 16 weeks. But no one really cares because, despite the 30 yrs of mens & 20 yrs of history in bodybuilding that is the history & heritage of the "IFBB Pro Card", the association remains but it doesn't really represent the pinnacle of a sport that is a lifelong pursuit anymore. So... whatev.

I really don't know what is the point of any of the arguments because its only the federation(s) that can make any change actually come about, and if they have no motivation (i.e money) to do so, why bother? It be what it be.

And why do FBBs do it all for no money? I can't speak for others, but for me its one available outlet for me to focus the training that I'd be doing anyway, and have been doing for nearly 30 yrs. Its a contrived measure of something that indicates "competition" for "something" that gives me a reason to step up my focus. Its a chance to share what is a very private pursuit with others who have a common passion, its a chance to do something different w/ your physique and present it, some degree of physical expression (via posing & routine). Ocassionally you get to do something fun w/ it, make a few bucks or whatever. That's about the size of it. Its an interesting conversation starter.

excellent post!

[tammyp]

i think everyone needs to find the look they want to project and go with it. bikini i wouldnt say is a lazy way out...it is perhaps the look the person wants. they may liketo be smaller or do it to do more modeling. theres room for all of us :)

[The Big Sexy]

My point on cross-overs w/ pro cards- a pro card was earned in a certain category. Women's physique has enough trouble keeping a clear definition of the categories as it is, so the "brand" value is diminishing and the whole thing is becoming this bucket of "women's physique" and within it, the weird looking FBBs who everyone ignores or stares at, the Figure girls who are now told to come in "softer" and the new and exciting Bikini girls who are only missing the stripper pole. If you want to bother w/ any of it make the definitions and judging criteria clear.

If it doesn't matter what category you came into then, goddammit, if I get a pro card, I'm gonna cross over to the men's 202 category.

I personally like clearly delineated lines, but that's just me. The primary point is money and getting new entrants at the amateur level. It just feels like a free-for-all w/ new categories that aren't completely defined and all this arguing about who "deserves" a pro card. I'm sorry but you CANNOT tell me a bikini girl works harder to meet the judging criteria than an FBB. Its not 16 weeks, its friggen years of building and THEN 16 weeks. But no one really cares because, despite the 30 yrs of mens & 20 yrs of history in bodybuilding that is the history & heritage of the "IFBB Pro Card", the association remains but it doesn't really represent the pinnacle of a sport that is a lifelong pursuit anymore. So... whatev.

I really don't know what is the point of any of the arguments because its only the federation(s) that can make any change actually come about, and if they have no motivation (i.e money) to do so, why bother? It be what it be.

And why do FBBs do it all for no money? I can't speak for others, but for me its one available outlet for me to focus the training that I'd be doing anyway, and have been doing for nearly 30 yrs. Its a contrived measure of something that indicates "competition" for "something" that gives me a reason to step up my focus. Its a chance to share what is a very private pursuit with others who have a common passion, its a chance to do something different w/ your physique and present it, some degree of physical expression (via posing & routine). Ocassionally you get to do something fun w/ it, make a few bucks or whatever. That's about the size of it. Its an interesting conversation starter.

I'd rep you, but I have to spread.

[Tu Holmes]

"Tiny" is not a word that has EVER been used to describe me.

This made me giggle... I have no idea why.

All I can think of is Chris Rock saying, "Oh yeah... Oh yeah... Well can ya' kick MY ass?!"

[Gaoshang Xiongshou]

I'd rep you, but I have to spread.


Tried to get her for you. Denied.

[sassy69]

i think everyone needs to find the look they want to project and go with it. bikini i wouldnt say is a lazy way out...it is perhaps the look the person wants. they may liketo be smaller or do it to do more modeling. theres room for all of us :)

Of course everything we talk about in this sport is relative because we have no clearly defined framework. Me, standing as a BB, of course I'm gonna LMAO when I hear about "OMG I WORKED SO HARD!".. but its true that we are all devoting a lot of time in those 16 weeks to dial in, but the difference is the foundation (i.e. muscle base) that you're working from so how are you measuring "how hard I worked'? But (most) bikini girls will be taking an approach that is still going to be much more focused than Joe Avg.

So to the point of the mindset as GM called out way early in this thread - as a BB it is a BUILD focus, and the knowledge that you can't just diet down & expect to do well in bodybuilding - but you can in bikini. Different mindset, different goals, and frankly different set of judging criteria. Itsi comparing apples and elephants. But when you stick all of that under the umbrella of an IFBB Pro card, its a relative thing again.

Dros wrote a great article that sort of amounts to why are we all fighting each other within the sport? I think its a little strange among the guys because at least they're all being judged by the same standards. But women are so divided up, not just on the criteria, but also on the one hand, on their implied fimininity (fuckability) and on the other (the competitors) on how much work they put in. Its all over the place. Because each has a different treatment by the mainstream, by the industry, by each other, there's all sorts of conflict within, almost by definition. I don't know if it woudl fix things, but I still think if there were clearly delineated criteria, distinct categories, consistent judging, and probably better criteria in general (i.e. like more to it than just quarter turns. half turns & T&A), it might be easier to talk about people within those categories instead of putting up a picture and really going straight to people's personal definition of 'fuckable', and people are compared on an individual scale instead of within a category.

Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I know I'm rambling, but there are so many poorly defined delineations that its really hard to talk about any absolutes because it is all relative in every aspect from wherever any one person is standing. At the end of the day I think we all respect and applaud any female who finds a passion to improve her body and her spirit in the gym. The rest is where the breakdown starts to happen.

[Tre]

Bikini is just going to be the next big bitch fest. The lines are already more blured than figure and look what a shitstorm that is. What happened to no capped delts, not even a year old and the judges cant stick to it. The IFBB and the judges have no idea what to look for in judging because their are no rules or guidelines that they are required to follow.

They know what they like and it varies from show-to-show, as the panels vary.

In general, though, don't the same people who judge bodybuilding also judge bikini?

[Tre]

actually no money has zero to do with why i compete

even the top FBBers like Iris don't make much. So no the possibilibly of winning $3000-6000 at a show has nothing to do with fuck i pay well more than that prepping, traveling, shit makeup alone is $350 for the weekend

No i do it for the achievement and self satisfaction :)

If i get a pro card it is all about accomplishing going form significantly overweight to bikini look to starting to compete and to have worked hard enough to be a pro fbber and then i will compete as a pro for the love of it and to bring my best every time. Sure i ABSOLUTELY want to win but $ never crossed my mind

Gotta back Suzanne up on this statement, Tu Holmes.

While there have been a tiny handful who've progressed through the ranks thinking that IFBB Pro status automatically equalled paydays, most understand the reality and although you may hear complaints about the discrepancy in prize money from time-to-time between men and women, VERY few women quit bodybuilding because of that.

Most female bodybuilders who are pursuing IFBB Pro status want to win, and to be known as one of the best in the world. It's a special title and should remain that way.

[Ibarramedia]

Gotta back Suzanne up on this statement, Tu Holmes.

While there have been a tiny handful who've progressed through the ranks thinking that IFBB Pro status automatically equalled paydays, most understand the reality and although you may hear complaints about the discrepancy in prize money from time-to-time between men and women, VERY few women quit bodybuilding because of that.

Most female bodybuilders who are pursuing IFBB Pro status want to win, and to be known as one of the best in the world. It's a special title and should remain that way.

Quoted for truth. x2 :beerbang:

[fitmomma3]

what exactly does webcam have to do with what i was answering? which is bbers do not go for pro card to make a living on prize money, modeling etc since there is no money to be made as a pro bber. I was adressngn this is response to the claim that people may go to bikini for more opportunities modeling, magazine, contest money. That these were not why most people who are body builders go into the sport

First- you don't have to be a pro to do webcam
Second-i highly doubt anyone said to themselves hmmm if i just put on a shitload of muscle i can make money doing webcam

webcam has nothing to do with why someone would pursue a pro card

I am pretty sure for those who do it it came after deciding they wanted to have muscle
my response to this quote
it is a mindset no one who is a bber at heart will scale down to bikini to get a fan base

the bbers i know do it for one reason themselves because they love it and finds passion in the training, making improvements. was so because you make it sound like all BB are only in it for themselves, nothing more nothing less and all bikini and figure are in it for money and fame and its just not true.

Maybe there is more media put on the figure/bikini end but you can't tell me all BBs do not care about that side. That's what I was saying... maybe initially someone gets in for the love of muscle but then starts enjoying the attention from fans, the requests for signed photos, the requests for other things that will then involve money, and they can become just as pulled into that in BB. You make it sound like bodybuilders are this elite group that only care about is self improvement, hardcore goals, and figure and bikini don't, it's just a very one sided blanket statement.

Many BBs do care very much so about the monetary value and the business side, as you often see threads even on here wishing there were more sponsorships for BBS, more media opportunities, magazine coverage etc. And then you have many that have turned to make their money through paysites, schmoe site, personal training, contest prep, etc.

Lets be real, getting into BB and seeing a Melissa D, a Lauren Powers or a Roxy Rain and thinking hmmmm I want to look like that, and I can make money and choosing that route to supplement your hobby is somehow less jaded than picking up an Oxygen magazine with Alicia Marie on the cover and thinking I'd like to look like that, I'd like to follow in her footsteps?

[fitmomma3]

Tried to get her for you. Denied.
Ditto!! Sassy's got all my stuff :)

[fitmomma3]

And the whole $$$$ talk even in figure and bikini needs to be put into reality... have you ever talked to these girls that grace the covers or do spreads? Now I'm not talking Jelena, Alicia Marie, Lindsay Messina, that have regular paid contracts. I'm just saying your average have a spread, grace a cover models. You be lucky if it'd pay your mortgage! It's more of a goal/privilege than a monetary thing.

Seriously... even girls who are sponsored, the amount helps them continue to compete, it's not usually quit your day job change. Everyone across the divisions for the most part will have competitors who love it for the PASSION of it, if "money" is the driving goal then chances are they are green and just don't know the scoop yet. I mean look at Dawn Butterfield she was doing Fitness America back when it was on ESPN regularly, I still remember her Minnie mouse routine, and up until a few years ago she was still plugging along competing... she's a stay at home that just loves it, nothing more, nothing less. Maggie Blanchard( not sure of her name now) but she's been competing for over like 15 years before she got her pro card, just passion, she makes her money now making suits. Heidi Fletcher, Wendy West, Mia Finnegan!!... I remember going to camps with Wendy West after she won all these fitness shows and was in magazines and she would joke how she would go back to work and people would just be like... oh how was your weekend? was your show fun? great... back to the grind.

[Suzanne]

my response to this quote was so because you make it sound like all BB are only in it for themselves, nothing more nothing less and all bikini and figure are in it for money and fame and its just not true.

Maybe there is more media put on the figure/bikini end but you can't tell me all BBs do not care about that side. That's what I was saying... maybe initially someone gets in for the love of muscle but then starts enjoying the attention from fans, the requests for signed photos, the requests for other things that will then involve money, and they can become just as pulled into that in BB. You make it sound like bodybuilders are this elite group that only care about is self improvement, hardcore goals, and figure and bikini don't, it's just a very one sided blanket statement.

Many BBs do care very much so about the monetary value and the business side, as you often see threads even on here wishing there were more sponsorships for BBS, more media opportunities, magazine coverage etc. And then you have many that have turned to make their money through paysites, schmoe site, personal training, contest prep, etc.

Lets be real, getting into BB and seeing a Melissa D, a Lauren Powers or a Roxy Rain and thinking hmmmm I want to look like that, and I can make money and choosing that route to supplement your hobby is somehow less jaded than picking up an Oxygen magazine with Alicia Marie on the cover and thinking I'd like to look like that, I'd like to follow in her footsteps?

wrong again I NEVER said bikini/fig/fit were in it for the money
I was addressing someone else who said maybe some switch to bikini for money
and then they went on to say the reason to be PRO is for money
that is what i was answering by saying there is no money (as in prize, modeling, magazines etc which was brought up for the other categories ) for bbing so that cannot be the reason to be pro
obviously you twisted my words to how you wanted them be

i also never said we wouldn't like more prize money, more shows, for a chance at prze money etc I said the state of how things are now money is not the primary reason for a fbber to desire to obtain her pro card

did i ever say those who want to model are doing something wrong? no
i never said anything against the other catagories
maybe you ought to reread what i have said without assuming what you think you want me to mean

and by the way if you look at the models on webcam sites many many many are smaller more figure sized than bbers but again it really has zero to do with the conversation at hand and zero to do with any of my responses

[fitmomma3]

it is a mindset no one who is a bber at heart will scale down to bikini to get a fan base

the bbers i know do it for one reason themselves because they love it and finds passion in the training, making improvements.
Suzanne I have no interest in twisting your words or having a pointless pissing match, you said no one who is a bber at heart will scale down to bikini to get a fan base... Carla Salloti scaled down to try figure. Does that make her not a BB at heart? and then...

i was tiny like bikini when i first started out prepping in 2002 for first show :hypno:
I just didn't have the boobs then or pretty face and great hair lol

but even tiny i was a bber at heart :yep:So how does that change if you decide you want to take a different progression other than pro BB? Let's put it this way, lets say you did have the boobs, the pretty face, the package, lets say you looked like Jelena... how differently do you think your progression through the divisions would have turned out?

I'm sure Jelena and you started out roughly the same size on stage and had different goals based on where you fit... there is still a common ground love of training and dieting that I think people are overlooking because these girls take different avenues. Jelena went from her first year competing to Covers of magazines, to bowflex commercials, to Farenheit commercials, infomercials and the list goes on. I hate sounding like cheerleaders for these girls but it bothers me when someone says take a step back when they are simply following paths the federations are laying out for them and navigating their careers.

I will add and this is just to the thread in general... Starting out my goal was always BB AT FIRST, I did camps and clinic with Nancy Andrews who is a 4X Natural world BB champ, she has always done BB, but wholeheartedly supports the other divisions as a promoter and encourages girls to follow their strengths. My first show she told me flat out, if you want to do BB do BB, but I will tell you right now there will be many more opportunities for you in figure, and she was a BB herself. It is what it is... honest advice. The opportunities are not what drive me, hell I am a baby maker, this is a passion/hobby... but the best way I can say competitors can "find their place" in terms of divisions is look at the top level competitors in each division and which would you most aspire to emulate? The reason, I believe, girls are crossing over and switching so much now is because top of bikini and top of figure look SO SIMILAR, bikini is new, its added spunk, different suits, why not?

[Melissa]

First of all, I agree that, with so many divisions available for women to choose from, there's definitely room for everyone to find their niche.

One reason why it seems a switch from figure to bikini might be considered going backwards is because it's not exactly a secret that trying to build muscle is difficult. People spend years trying to build muscle and trying to find tricks and tools to make it happen faster. It's like searching for the holy grail. So when an athlete purposely chooses to switch from a division that requires her to lose some of that hard-earned muscle in order to be successful, it's no wonder it's looked at as her "going backwards." Then again, some people's body types just work better in different divisions. For example, as much as I loved figure, I switched to bb because I didn't feel that I had the right shape to do well in figure. I had a lot less control over my success. While I still lack certain major structural advantages for bb, I feel that I have much more control over my success because I can build more muscle to fill out my frame in the offseason and do whatever necessary cardio and manipulations to my diet to get the conditioning that I want during prep.

And to play devil's advocate, who's to say what hard work is for one person over another? Isn't that really a relative phrase? I mean, I think I train my ass off in the gym, but some other people might look at my training and say, "Damn, that girl is lazy."

[MsGuns]

First of all, I agree that, with so many divisions available for women to choose from, there's definitely room for everyone to find their niche.

One reason why it seems a switch from figure to bikini might be considered going backwards is because it's not exactly a secret that trying to build muscle is difficult. People spend years trying to build muscle and trying to find tricks and tools to make it happen faster. It's like searching for the holy grail. So when an athlete purposely chooses to switch from a division that requires her to lose some of that hard-earned muscle in order to be successful, it's no wonder it's looked at as her "going backwards." Then again, some people's body types just work better in different divisions. For example, as much as I loved figure, I switched to bb because I didn't feel that I had the right shape to do well in figure. I had a lot less control over my success. While I still lack certain major structural advantages for bb, I feel that I have much more control over my success because I can build more muscle to fill out my frame in the offseason and do whatever necessary cardio and manipulations to my diet to get the conditioning that I want during prep.

And to play devil's advocate, who's to say what hard work is for one person over another? Isn't that really a relative phrase? I mean, I think I train my ass off in the gym, but some other people might look at my training and say, "Damn, that girl is lazy."

This...

[MsGuns]

Suzanne I have no interest in twisting your words or having a pointless pissing match, you said no one who is a bber at heart will scale down to bikini to get a fan base... Carla Salloti scaled down to try figure. Does that make her not a BB at heart? and then...
So how does that change if you decide you want to take a different progression other than pro BB? Let's put it this way, lets say you did have the boobs, the pretty face, the package, lets say you looked like Jelena... how differently do you think your progression through the divisions would have turned out?

I'm sure Jelena and you started out roughly the same size on stage and had different goals based on where you fit... there is still a common ground love of training and dieting that I think people are overlooking because these girls take different avenues. Jelena went from her first year competing to Covers of magazines, to bowflex commercials, to Farenheit commercials, infomercials and the list goes on. I hate sounding like cheerleaders for these girls but it bothers me when someone says take a step back when they are simply following paths the federations are laying out for them and navigating their careers.

I will add and this is just to the thread in general... Starting out my goal was always BB AT FIRST, I did camps and clinic with Nancy Andrews who is a 4X Natural world BB champ, she has always done BB, but wholeheartedly supports the other divisions as a promoter and encourages girls to follow their strengths. My first show she told me flat out, if you want to do BB do BB, but I will tell you right now there will be many more opportunities for you in figure, and she was a BB herself. It is what it is... honest advice. The opportunities are not what drive me, hell I am a baby maker, this is a passion/hobby... but the best way I can say competitors can "find their place" in terms of divisions is look at the top level competitors in each division and which would you most aspire to emulate? The reason, I believe, girls are crossing over and switching so much now is because top of bikini and top of figure look SO SIMILAR, bikini is new, its added spunk, different suits, why not?

I agree...I rather look like gurls from the top of figure than bodybuilding if I was in the npc/ifbb...

People think Im a figure gurl anyway...they are surprised when I say Im a bodybuilder...

[HammerStrength12]

Suzanne I have no interest in twisting your words or having a pointless pissing match, you said no one who is a bber at heart will scale down to bikini to get a fan base... Carla Salloti scaled down to try figure. Does that make her not a BB at heart? and then...
So how does that change if you decide you want to take a different progression other than pro BB? Let's put it this way, lets say you did have the boobs, the pretty face, the package, lets say you looked like Jelena... how differently do you think your progression through the divisions would have turned out?

I'm sure Jelena and you started out roughly the same size on stage and had different goals based on where you fit... there is still a common ground love of training and dieting that I think people are overlooking because these girls take different avenues. Jelena went from her first year competing to Covers of magazines, to bowflex commercials, to Farenheit commercials, infomercials and the list goes on. I hate sounding like cheerleaders for these girls but it bothers me when someone says take a step back when they are simply following paths the federations are laying out for them and navigating their careers.

I will add and this is just to the thread in general... Starting out my goal was always BB AT FIRST, I did camps and clinic with Nancy Andrews who is a 4X Natural world BB champ, she has always done BB, but wholeheartedly supports the other divisions as a promoter and encourages girls to follow their strengths. My first show she told me flat out, if you want to do BB do BB, but I will tell you right now there will be many more opportunities for you in figure, and she was a BB herself. It is what it is... honest advice. The opportunities are not what drive me, hell I am a baby maker, this is a passion/hobby... but the best way I can say competitors can "find their place" in terms of divisions is look at the top level competitors in each division and which would you most aspire to emulate? The reason, I believe, girls are crossing over and switching so much now is because top of bikini and top of figure look SO SIMILAR, bikini is new, its added spunk, different suits, why not?

I agree...I rather look like gurls from the top of figure than bodybuilding if I was in the npc/ifbb...

People think Im a figure gurl anyway...they are surprised when I say Im a bodybuilder...

I'd rep you if I could, can't though. Nancy is awesome, she did a seminar at my gym once. Very nice person, really knows her stuff and a PHENOMENAL athlete.

[wenzel]

bikini dont even belong to the same stage than fbbs...

is there a arm floats class in a swimming competition ??
is there a stabilizer wheels class at the tour de france ??

[juliana]

I just checked out photos from Pittsburgh... wanted to figure out the diference between biquini Nathalia Melo and figure Heather Mae French if both were posing next to each other.

[MsGuns]

Juliana, that may have been a pic of them as the winners not in comparison.

[dvsness]

we are talking about cross over. It is harder to qualify for national lever as a bber and they are significantly less pro cards given out for bbing so if you didn't earn it as a bber you should not be able to cross to bbing as a pro

I also don't think if you qualify as bikini, figure or bbing you should be able to do fitness. Part of getting fitness pro card was a routine that you did to EARN that fitness procard. Why should someone who didnt' have to do a routine suddenly be able to compete in fitness

keep them separate

The IFBB was so free with Pro cards last year that there is now a Bikini Pro who got her card by placing 2nd of 2 in her class. She went on to compete in Fitness as a Pro this year. I don't fault her (don't recall the name) since the rules allow it, but 2nd of 2 is the same as last place...

[wenzel]

but 2nd of 2 is the same as last place...
no...its the glorious runner up...
and first is the last but one

[Michal11]

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[AnglicanBeachParty]

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