Aromasin & Pramipexole

[NPCKnight]

While I would never argue against Dave's philosophies or say he is wrong...it has become increasingly apparent to me that Arimidex may be a sub par choice for an anti-e when compared to Aromasin. I know Dave advocates the use of Arimidex to all his clients and people seeking advice but it simply looks like, in time, better things have come along which in all honesty, Dave may or may not have ever had the chance to use/see the results of. So here I will create a intro and discussion.

Arimidex from what I gather can fall short when it comes to E2 levels and also effect your cholesterol levels. Aromasin has also shown to lower SHBG which could infact increase test levels.
The following is excerpts from a doctor/forum member named Macro/Macrophage69alpha at a couple other respectable boards on Arimidex vs Aromasin:
*Aromasin is generally much better tolerated and more effective (suppression profile wise) as compared to arimidex.
*dex is not particularly effective for drugs that tend to be subject to peripheral aromatization, methandrostanolone in particular. often a full 2mg daily of dex will still not stop dbol bloat and cramping.

aromasin on the other hand is very effective peripherally, highly suppressing what is generally E2 conversion.

arimidex is best at E1 suppression (tissue affinity, gonadal, adrenal, etc and because its a competitive inhibitor). it suppress e1 at even the lowest of doses, but takes rather high doses to see significant impact on peripheral aromatase (which if you have "issues" is generally where it is).

general reccomendation is aromasin as a base for most aromatic cycles with LETROZOLE on hand. Generally also reccomend a dopaminergic, at least on hand, cabaser tablets or pramipexole (liquid or tabs). prolactin is as involved in gynecomastia and testosterone suppression as estrogen.

--------------

Cabaser/Cabergoline has also been a popular choice as of late to fight off prolactin sides(in many users who use Nandrolone or Tren..possibly Anadrol as well). In reading, I have found that there may be a new item you guys might want to look into that very well may be superior. It is called Pramipexole.

[holyintellect]

I am a firm believer that in almost all circumstances that arimidex is the superior choice...the reason being is that anything else higher up the food chain usually works TOO well. I have had clients have horrible problems with femara, because it actually took their estrogen TOO low. Remember, these arent chemicals made for use in bodybuilding, and as such, sometimes things can work too well for our particular needs.

holy

[NPCKnight]

I am not talking about femara. I am talking about Aromasin.

[holyintellect]

I realize that....I was just using that as an example to illustrate my point...I also think aromasin works too well for most, and causes its own set of problems to deal with.

holy

[maxititer]

aromasin/exemestane more effective then others aromatase inhibitors like anastrozole/arimidex and letrozole, difference is that exemestane is irreversibly bind to aromatase enzyme and anastrozole is reversible binder. That means that anastrozol can deattach from aromatase molecule and conversion will still have place.

[NPCKnight]

Common dosages are 10-25mg/day for Aromasin. On my next bulk, I am going to use 12.5mg ED.

Prami I haven't tried yet but will be trying very soon. Probably at .25mg Does anyone use Pramipexole currently?

[NPCKnight]

WHY PROLACTIN is bad for you:

prolactin impairs libido
is a cause of erectile dysfunction
is highly linked to male breast and prostate cancer
impairs endogenous growth hormone levels
is a common cause of low blood sugar (prolactin spikes- usually from overheating)
is associated with depression and fibromyalgia

basically, for adult males its the devil. really provides no benefits (that normal gh levels cannot) and comes with a host of negative effects and its an aggravating factor in some of the worst male cancers.


ENTER PRAMIPEXOLE:
Pramipexole- somewhat similar to cabergoline, but with significantly more positive impact on libido and mood.

Also, cabergoline/cabaser has apparently been found to potentially have a negative side effect having to do with a heart valve. Apparently, Pramipexole has no affinity for said receptor.
'only dopamine agonists that bind to 5ht2b have this potential.'-Macro

Prami also apparently raises GH:
'pramipexole has very high affinity for d2 autoreceptor, which is why it increases GH production and suppresses prolactin so significantly. and just to be clear pramipexole suppresses prolactin more effectively than cabergoline. -Macro

There are claims that it can raise GH in healthy people 400%.

[NPCKnight]

well if you have any heart issues or mitral valve regurge, fibrosis, etc... then you should probably avoid cabergoline.


cabergoline is very effective prolactin suppressor. But then again so is pramipexole, mg/mg MUCH more effective.

Cabergoline's advantages are long half life (may also be considered a disadvantage, should side effects become an issue), relatively established dosing patterns (though there is not exactly board and certainly not internet wide agreement), side effects are generally low, even with higher doses. Lethargy, facial edema and dehydration/appetite suppression (thirst suppression too) are relatively common though mild sides. Tabs are pretty affordable from europe. Though otherwise, rediculously expensive. No liquid on market is really worthwhile (though suspension can be made that are stable, just none currently used are.)

Pramipexole (used for prolactin suppression) advantages. very potent, .5mg at night tends to be upper end dosing for this. Cheaper. Stable in solution. Available domestically. Side effects are low, if taken at night. Taking during the day and trying to too quickly escalate the dose can be unpleasant and annoying. generally say that nightime dosing is where to start, until higher doses are reached (if you do that==== AGAIN, higher doses are NOT necessary for prolactin suppression). at same dose per day, prolactin suppression will peak for dosage (though less difference as you approach) at about 2 weeks of the same dosage, or after that 3-5days from increase. it is much more likely to cause sedation, appetite suppression may be noticeable at low doses. well below 1mg. Note- Pramipexole has a host of benefits that
ccabergoline has no claim to. High level growth hormone spike, mood enhancement, libido enhancement to name a few.

[Bluestorm]

"prolactin sides(in many users who use Nandrolone or Tren..possibly Anadrol as well)."
Where is the proof that Nandrolone or Trenbolone cause an increase in prolactin? Scientific literature shows that androgens decrease prolactin. Estrogen is the root cause of gyno problems. I do know that it takes a high estrogen concentration to elevate prolactin levels. So when it comes to gyno, why not eliminate that?

[NPCKnight]

Estrogen and Prolactin are both factors which need to be controlled..and the prevention of gyno is ALWAYS more effective when both are supressed.
Most gyno is influenced by prolactin as well as estrogen.

[Formula94]

Common dosages are 10-25mg/day for Aromasin. On my next bulk, I am going to use 12.5mg ED.

Prami I haven't tried yet but will be trying very soon. Probably at .25mg Does anyone use Pramipexole currently?

I am using prami right now on a prop/ace cylce. I'm dosing .75mg/day. Make sure you slowly ramp up the dose, and if you plan on having a cocktail or two DO NOT TAKE the prami!!!!!
I had some pretty bad gyno when I started the cycle and of course it got worse while on (I know I should have taken care of it b4 hand, but live and learn) so I started running letro 2.5mg/day for 1.5 weeks and now I've dropped it down to .25mg ed along with the prami. Gyno is almost gone! and the joints aren't too sore from no estro.
The prami makes me super tired when dosed over .5mg so take it b4 bed.

[-BLP-]

one day i try prolactin my god i dont know if i was allergic but i felt like shit, like hardcore awful ,unberable, never again , i kinda like femera/letro

[kratos47]

hey npcknight do u think the aromasin would be affective enough at 12.5 milli eod or e3d during cycle just to keep estogren in the normal range? im getting mixed reviews on this everywhere. im told that my gains with suffer. i know that estro is as important as testosterone for muscle growth but cant it do its job at a normal range? not elavated from the aromatize of the testosterone but not completly gone from say the letro. what are your thoughts on this bro?

[NPCKnight]

well 5mg-12.5mg is what i consider a low dose. I think normal dosing is about 25mg a day. Low end normal dosing I would say is 12.5mg. Dosing EOD might be adequate for someone who doesnt have serious estrogen issues, but E3D is too long in between to really be effective and controlling IMO. It should be dosed ED as I understand, but I'd be willing to be EOD can be gotten away with in many cases.

12.5-25mg of Aromasin as I understand, DOES NOT get rid of ALL estrogen, it just keeps it in control.

[kratos47]

alright bro thanks. do u think 12.5 ed would effect gains?

[NPCKnight]

I dont even think 25mg would effect gains. But if 12.5 works well enough...why use 25? You really are going to have to gauge it to see how sensitive you really are. I have become a believer in the fact that everyone should always use an AI when running test. It keeps you healthier on the 'inside' even if you feel you aren't getting any sides on the outside.

[chriswhat]

Definitely ease into the Pramipexole. It is some powerful stuff. Makes me groggy and edgy during the day and if I take it too close to bedtime I toss and turn all night. Takes forever to come during sex too. In fact night before last I never did.:confused:

[NPCKnight]

Prami should be dosed starting at .25. Work your way up to .5 etc. Also should be dosed 2 hrs before bed. If it ends up making you sleepy, you should move it closer to your bedtime.

[Mudpro69]

Hey NPC,

Great thread. I am Just curious, what is your thought doing AI only, no TRT? I want to try to decrease my Estrogen with some type of AI but I don't really know where to begin in selection and dosage. If I understand correctly I don't want to complete eliminate my E-levels. I've also, read something else interesting....



Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don?t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin.

Can you dummy this down for me? Why would the preferred AI be Adex and not Aromasin? Also, What is the script name for Aromasin?

Thanks for the help....

[thepump]

Nolvadex Arimidex IS MY STACK BLOCKER AND KILLER. GREAT THREAD GETS THE MIND GOING.

[NPCKnight]

Hey NPC,

Great thread. I am Just curious, what is your thought doing AI only, no TRT? I want to try to decrease my Estrogen with some type of AI but I don't really know where to begin in selection and dosage. If I understand correctly I don't want to complete eliminate my E-levels. I've also, read something else interesting....



Can you dummy this down for me? Why would the preferred AI be Adex and not Aromasin? Also, What is the script name for Aromasin?

Thanks for the help....

The script name for aromasin is Exemestane. I have no experience with AI only, however, at the proper dosage (not too much) it should eliminate some estrogen and perhaps increase test. Aromasin is said to also lower SHBG which was what everyone says proviron does. I think it would be much safer to use OTC estrogen blockers like Dave's Testostolyze or 6oxo or Novadex to battle estrogen as a natural/AI only.

Aromasin does not eliminate E levels, so I do not know what you want me to dummy down. Ofcourse using too much and supressing too much estrogen can always happen if you are not mindful of your dosages.
I have used arimidex before, and I feel aromasin is the better, more effective, & healthier AI.

[NPCKnight]

Macro: recommends that you give pramipexole a try, find very few that dont "like" it better. from a bb'er and physique standpoint the GH increases alone are significant pluses, but from a QOL standpoint the mood and libido benefits are far and away better.

caveat (there always is one): pramipexole can enhance underlying self gratification traits and compulsive behaviors, so its not for everyone (at least at higher doses). Cabergoline and all dopaminergics do have this potential, how much will vary. typically dose related and at 1mg or less with pramipexole occurance/extent is rare/mild.

[jacshelb]

Good post, man! I totally agree on this. I know it doesn't look like I have much experience, but I've been all around when it comes to these ancilliaries and I'd say you are right on the money. Aromasin is my favorite and Letro really helped when things got out of hand at one point.

I agree with BLP on what he said too. When I tried Cabergoline for some tren issues once, I couldn't stand it either. Some argue about this, but I believe it really fucked up my sleep- crazy repetitive dreams, almost no quality sleep etc. But everyone reacts a bit differently. Some told me it was the Tren, but it happened only when on Cabergoline.



While I would never argue against Dave's philosophies or say he is wrong...it has become increasingly apparent to me that Arimidex may be a sub par choice for an anti-e when compared to Aromasin. I know Dave advocates the use of Arimidex to all his clients and people seeking advice but it simply looks like, in time, better things have come along which in all honesty, Dave may or may not have ever had the chance to use/see the results of. So here I will create a intro and discussion.

Arimidex from what I gather can fall short when it comes to E2 levels and also effect your cholesterol levels. Aromasin has also shown to lower SHBG which could infact increase test levels.
The following is excerpts from a doctor/forum member named Macro/Macrophage69alpha at a couple other respectable boards on Arimidex vs Aromasin:
*Aromasin is generally much better tolerated and more effective (suppression profile wise) as compared to arimidex.
*dex is not particularly effective for drugs that tend to be subject to peripheral aromatization, methandrostanolone in particular. often a full 2mg daily of dex will still not stop dbol bloat and cramping.

aromasin on the other hand is very effective peripherally, highly suppressing what is generally E2 conversion.

arimidex is best at E1 suppression (tissue affinity, gonadal, adrenal, etc and because its a competitive inhibitor). it suppress e1 at even the lowest of doses, but takes rather high doses to see significant impact on peripheral aromatase (which if you have "issues" is generally where it is).

general reccomendation is aromasin as a base for most aromatic cycles with LETROZOLE on hand. Generally also reccomend a dopaminergic, at least on hand, cabaser tablets or pramipexole (liquid or tabs). prolactin is as involved in gynecomastia and testosterone suppression as estrogen.

--------------

Cabaser/Cabergoline has also been a popular choice as of late to fight off prolactin sides(in many users who use Nandrolone or Tren..possibly Anadrol as well). In reading, I have found that there may be a new item you guys might want to look into that very well may be superior. It is called Pramipexole.

[NPCKnight]

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2203276&rendertype=figure&id=fig04

[PAGAN]

Would there be any issues running aromasin for extended periods eg 16 -20 weeks ? my current cycle is due to run 16 weeks and I was intending to run aromasin for the duration.

[The Big Sexy]

This is a great read... excellent.

[NPCKnight]

Pagan...should be no problems. If you can find a sweet spot where you suppress enough, but not too much estrogen, you should be able to run it for long periods of time. Think...if it doesnt effect your cholesterol levels like Arimidex would, what other reason would you stop using it before/during/after cycle?

[jdroks]

"prolactin sides(in many users who use Nandrolone or Tren..possibly Anadrol as well)."
Where is the proof that Nandrolone or Trenbolone cause an increase in prolactin? Scientific literature shows that androgens decrease prolactin. Estrogen is the root cause of gyno problems. I do know that it takes a high estrogen concentration to elevate prolactin levels. So when it comes to gyno, why not eliminate that?

actually, in practical use, the opposite is true. All androgens increase prolactin with extended exposure due to the excessive dopamine production and release that they cause. all the studies that people look at in this respect are acute, which is why so many people seem to adhere to a belief that is not scientifically supported.

But the proof is in the pudding, because when I have had gyno and libido issues with tren or deca/npp, pramipexole has effectively eliminated them. Cabergoline has worked for me in the past but not nearly as effectively as pramipexole.


Estrogen does also raise prolactin. And you are right, androgens do raise dopamine and suppress prolactin, it just does not stay that way over time.

[apex23]

Doesn't Aromasin also raise IGF levels?

[apex23]

By the way, I am using ARomasin now and I love it.

[ANADROLicfreak]

what is the best way to take Aromasin?in water or juice or just straight?

[apex23]

I take it straight with water and with a meal that contains fat.

It taste bad but I have just taken it with nothing to wash it down with. You get over the taste.

[ANADROLicfreak]

would you start with 12.5 everday?

[apex23]

That is what I do and it works great for me.

I have used Arimidex before and like aromasin better. The better benefit is it does not mess with your cholesterol levels especially when we are already on gear.

[NPCKnight]

Started with 12.5ed....works very well. I take it with at least 10g of fat(meal) and have found that as horrible as it does taste...diet coke helps a lot as a chaser to rid the aftertaste.

[apex23]

Started with 12.5ed....works very well. I take it with at least 10g of fat(meal) and have found that as horrible as it does taste...diet coke helps a lot as a chaser to rid the aftertaste.


That is exactly what I do. where did you find the info that Pramipexole increases GH by 400%?

[apex23]

Bump

[davalex]

what about the parlodel stuff?

[NPCKnight]

parlodel stuff?

[davalex]

parlodel stuff?
it s a generic med we have here in my country to raise prolactin and parkinson but maybe you don t have in the us....and very cheap..

[babybull]

Started letro and prami 3 days ago...gyno has shrunk in half!

I think its due to the Prami becasue I was already taking Adex at .5ed and have used letro in the past without any results....ifthis keeps working Ill be gyno free by next weekend! I had some big lumps too..the size of ping pong balls boyz....Im thrilled!

[Judge]

I am using prami right now on a prop/ace cylce. I'm dosing .75mg/day. Make sure you slowly ramp up the dose, and if you plan on having a cocktail or two DO NOT TAKE the prami!!!!!
I had some pretty bad gyno when I started the cycle and of course it got worse while on (I know I should have taken care of it b4 hand, but live and learn) so I started running letro 2.5mg/day for 1.5 weeks and now I've dropped it down to .25mg ed along with the prami. Gyno is almost gone! and the joints aren't too sore from no estro.
The prami makes me super tired when dosed over .5mg so take it b4 bed.

what do you mean by saying "do not take prami"?
I think that 2,5mg Letro are WAY TOO MUCH! you eliminate your estrogen and I am sure you have NO LIBIDO!
I am using 0,625 mg Letro every 3 days and I find it hard too!

[NPCKnight]

BUMP because its good for ya.

[Jack of All]

I took prami first time last night at .25mg. I took it about 8pm and tried to go to sleep at 10pm. I have never tossed and turned as much in my life as I did last night. It was almost as if I could not calm down. I hope that is a side that goes away!

[axioma]

one day i try prolactin my god i dont know if i was allergic but i felt like shit, like hardcore awful ,unberable, never again , i kinda like femera/letro
I understand the hesitation with letrazole, however where gyno is concerned you sometimes have to bite the bullet. I developed a pea sized lump under a nipple and ran letro for 3 months off cycle, just using 300mg HRT a week. The lump disappeared for a year. I am finishing up a cycle of sust/tren and the lump has returned. I have been running 'zole throughout the cycle. I believe it is prolactin related. That said, should I bother with cabergoline now that I about done with cycle, or should I ride some letro during my off time and see if I get the same results?

[babybull]

I can say that this post was instrumental in me losing my gyno! I used Prami and letro in a combo and eliminated my 2 YR OLD gyno! I about shit....Ive had surgery once and it came back...but this took it away!

I was nothing short of amazed by how well it worked. The only side I had was a little elevated Cholesterol (im guessing from letro), and some wierd sleep patterns...overall I give this combo an A+ a total life saver!

[-BLP-]

adex easy to get in canada , aromasin might be good but it nowhere first,, and no one know about it yet...

[axioma]

I was hoping a mod would address the ? I posted or anyone with some insight?

[MrOXY]

where can i get this prami stuff? how does it look ? what is the dose per tab ? are there any ugl that makes them or is it just strictly human use [pharm grade?

[OMEGA]

Aromasen all the way

once you use the right dose for your needs there is NO going back to any other AI

[OMEGA]

ps Adex is only a "competitive inhibitor"

Exemestane ( aromasen) is "Suicidal inhibitor"

that tells you alot ;0

Also there is little to No perceptible E rebound With Exemestane

[Andrew732]

ps Adex is only a "competitive inhibitor"

Exemestane ( aromasen) is "Suicidal inhibitor"

that tells you alot ;0

Also there is little to No perceptible E rebound With Exemestane
That is what I LOVE about Aromasin.:hmn:

[Andrew732]

what is the best way to take Aromasin?in water or juice or just straight?
500mg ECGC and fats help aromasin to bind albumin.:yep:

[NPCKnight]

It is a good idea to take aromasin around/with a meal containing at least 10g of fat...

[MrOXY]

???

[NPCKnight]

It's liquid, not tabs. researchstop has it. there is a sticky on afboard and a thread on proM about how to use it. using prami does take some patience and mental fortitude.

[MrOXY]

thanks i think i may bennifet from its use as im rebound estrogen prone

[Jack of All]

It's liquid, not tabs. researchstop has it. there is a sticky on afboard and a thread on proM about how to use it. using prami does take some patience and mental fortitude.

Patience and mental fortitude is no joke. I am on my 5th night and ready to quit. I will give it some more time. The sleeplessness and the stuffy nose all night long are not fun.

[Andrew732]

Patience and mental fortitude is no joke. I am on my 5th night and ready to quit. I will give it some more time. The sleeplessness and the stuffy nose all night long are not fun.
Stuffy noses is very common with dopamergenics, it takes a couple days to get used to it, breath with your mouth open.

[OMEGA]

That is what I LOVE about Aromasin.:hmn:


:hmn: Hello! lol:p

[Jack of All]

breath with your mouth open.

really? you can do that:dunno:

problem is i snore when my mouth is open, then the wife is pissed. oh well, she is pissed all the time:yep:

[Andrew732]

really? you can do that:dunno:

problem is i snore when my mouth is open, then the wife is pissed. oh well, she is pissed all the time:yep:
LOL, I hear ya but that is the best way to cope with it, cuz dopamergenics do the same to me, do not stress over it, just work with, the less stress, the less pressure, it will take a bit but your body will get used of it, at least its working...;)