HPTA upregulation during BLAST and CRUISING..

[mr intensity]

hi guys,

i need to learn the proper protocol for HPTA upregulation while conventional blasting and cruising ie
for example blast 12 weeks with test and some anabolic.
cruise 8 weeks with low doses of test.
and then repeat

there is a lot of information moving around... bit confusing
stuff like 1000iu HCG/week for the whole duration
use of clomid during the cruise period along with Adex and stuff like that.
or the use of naloxone

wud appreciate your input
thank you

[s2h]

PM Heavyiron..

[mr intensity]

ok , i found out the DC HPTA upregulation protocol... its something like

Blast week (1 to 4) ; Test + Some anabolic
Blast week (1 to 4) : 0.5mg Arimidex
last 10 days 1000iu HCG/day
Cruise week (5 to 6) 50mg test p eod
Cruise week (5 to 6) 0.5mg Adex
Cruise week (5 to 6) clomid 300mg -day1, 200mg - day2, 150mg-day2, 100mg for rest of the cruise period.

the repeat the blast and the cruise.
then when you completely come off do a full PCT.

try to gain 5 pounds each blast.

heavyiron recommends;
while on cycle 500iu HCG x 2/week + 10mg Aromasin/day

PCT
2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG eod.)

100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3)

20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

10g creatine daily


Big A recommends: 5000iu HCG every 4 weeks ( 1000iu HCG/day shots for 5 days) or clomid 50mg everyother day while on then when totally coming off use GAIN KEEPERS FORMULA.

PoWeR PCT protocol

HCG 2500iu eod for day 1 to day 16
Clomid 100mg everyday/form day 1 to day 30
Nolvadex 20mg every day/ from day 1 to day 45

however william L is not worried much about LH levels he says that LH levels are restored to normal within 3 weeks after the cessaton of the drug.
he is more concerned about Testicular Atrophy, therefore he recommends bombarding the testis with a lot of HCG which will lead to rapid restoration of the testicular mass.
However the combined use of 2 antiestrogens which will continue to foster LH release as testosterone levels start to go back up.

he assures that normal hormonal fuctions were achieved in all the pts within 45 days..... as per Anabolics 2009


Dave Palumbo PCT protocol

- HCG: 2000mg every second day for two weeks
- Clomid: (start 2 weeks after conclusion of cycle) 50mg two times per day for two weeks
- Aromatase Inhibitor: Arimidex (.5mg every other day)

[mr intensity]

Posted bt Restless on Cuttingedgemuscle



Opioid antagonists and HPTA function
I just heard about the possible effect of opioid antagonists in LH secretion in another board and went to pub med looking for studies on this hoping I could generate some discussion here.

This is the post that started this:

"Now for the most important piece of the post cycle recovery puzzle that you never hear bodybuilders talk about because they usually have no idea. The opioidergic regulation of testosterone. Without going to great lengths in explaining opioids and their effects on hormones and the brain, natural opiates are released in response to the increase in LH by the use of estrogen inhibitors. So you've got increased LH and increased natural opiate levels. Now when the estrogen inhibitors are taken away the LH is greatly reduced and you're back to square one. So your natural opiate levels are still high. LH will not be stimulated until it comes back down. That is in a sense why HCG and estrogen inhibitors are only so affective at stimulating testicular function and restoring the HPT axis. So since opiates suppress gonadotropin secretion i.e. testosterone secretion using opiate antagonists can help bodybuilders completely recover. REVIA is the most popular. Read all you can on the subject because it really is the missing link of post cycle recovery. Later!"

He doesn't provide any references so I went to check it out and did found some stuff (see below). I didn't find anything about the increase in endogenous opioids from LH increases, but I haven't searched yet (anyone knows anything about this?).

Study number found a significant impact on LH levels after naxolone treatment (in goats....).

Second one has this bit that intrigues me:

"Administration of specific opiate antagonists decreases luteinizing hormone (LH) release and increases the frequency and amplitude of the LH pulses"

If I'm not mistaken number 3 shows that naloxone is effective in stimulating LH relese in obese patients, nut not in normal individuals.


Number 4 shows a positive effect in LH and testosterone levels from two different antagonists and some stuff about LH and prolactin pulse sinchrony that is probably meaningless for our purposes.

Number 5 shows a 50% increase in cortisol. Not so good.

Number 6 shows a positive impact in sexual function even without any noticeable changes in hormone levels.


I am not sure this is actually worth trying during PCT, but I'd love to hear people's opinions on this. These drugs have some unpleasant side effects but I think I'm willing to give it a try if I'm convinced there may be something to it.

Thoughts please?



1-Effect of naloxone on the plasma levels of LH, FSH, prolactin and testosterone in Beetal bucks.

Singh B, Dixit VD, Singh P, Georgie GC, Dixit VP.

Department of Animal Production Physiology, CCS Haryana Agricultural University, 125004, Hisar, India

Ten adult male Beetal goats were used for the study to elucidate the modulation of gonadotrophin, prolactin and testosterone secretion by endogenous opioid peptides. An indwelling catheter was placed in the jugular vein of each buck 20h before the onset of the experiment. Bucks were divided randomly into two groups: Group I (n=5) received naloxone at a dose rate of 1mg/kg body weight (BW) and Group II (n=5) received naloxone at a dose rate of 2mg/kg BW intravenous. Blood samplings were done from 2h before treatment until 2h after treatment at 15min intervals. Blood samples were quantified for plasma LH, FSH and prolactin concentration using a heterologous double antibody radioimmunoassay (RIA) and testosterone concentration was quantified by coat-a-count RIA kit. The mean plasma LH levels during pretreatment phase were 0.41+/-0.03ng/ml in Group I and 0.44+/-0.02ng/ml in Group II which significantly (p<0.05) increased to 0.91+/-0.05ng/ml in Group I and 1.53+/-0.07ng/ml in Group II. The mean plasma FSH levels did not show a difference in pre- and post-treatment animals in both groups. A significant (p<0.05) increase in plasma testosterone concentration was observed in both groups after naloxone treatment, whereas, a decrease (p<0.05) was observed in plasma prolactin levels after naloxone treatment. Thus, it can be concluded that endogenous opioids do play an important role in modulating plasma LH, prolactin and testosterone concentrations in male goats.

2-[Interaction of endogenous opioid peptides with the function of the hypothalamo-hypophyseal-testicular axis]

[Article in Spanish]

Pedron Nuevo N.

Unidad de Investigacion Medica en Biologia de la Reproduccion. Division de Investigacion Biomedica. IMSS, Mexico, D.F.

Since the discovery of endogenous opioid peptides and opioid receptors in the brain, their has been considerable interest in their possible role in a variety of physiological and pharmacological processes. The endogenous opioids and opiate active substances have been clearly implicated in the regulation of male reproductive function. It has been demonstrated that opioid peptides inhibit gonadotropin and TSH secretion and enhance PRL, GH and ACTH. It is believed that opioids elicit their action at the hypothalamic level, most likely by modulating the liberation of hypothalamic releasing or inhibiting factors. In healthy male adults the endogenous opioid peptides (EOP) produce a decrease in serum levels of gonadotropins. Administration of specific opiate antagonists decreases luteinizing hormone (LH) release and increases the frequency and amplitude of the LH pulses. The effects of EOP and specific opiate antagonists are altered in some hypothalamic-hypophysis-testis axis pathologies.

3-Endogenous opioids and hypogonadism in human obesity.

Blank DM, Clark RV, Heymsfield SB, Rudman DR, Blank MS.

Yerkes Regional Primate Research Center, Emory University, Atlanta, GA 30322.

Massively obese males often show symptoms of hypogonadism, but the mechanism for this is unclear. Increased endogenous opioid inhibition of the hypothalamic GnRH pulse generator resulting in insufficient stimulation of the pituitary gonadotroph has been proposed as a possible mechanism. If this hypothesis is correct, obese males should be more sensitive to the LH-elevating effects of the opiate antagonist, naloxone, than men of normal weight and gonadal status. This study investigated the etiology of obesity-related hypogonadism by examining luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) responses to gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) and to infusions of saline or naloxone. Subjects were five obese (201 +/- 14% IBW) and five normal weight (control) (97 +/- 4% IBW) males. Before treatment, obese males had significantly (p < 0.05) lower testosterone levels than control subjects (307 +/- 72 vs. 597 +/- 49 ng/dl), whereas estradiol, androstenedione, and dehydroepiandrosterone levels were not different between the two groups. Both groups showed equivalent elevations in LH (fourfold to sixfold) in response to GnRH stimulation, but obese patients had significantly lower basal (p < 0.05) and GnRH-stimulated (p < 0.01) FSH levels. Infusions of naloxone (but not saline) led to significant (p < 0.01) increases in LH above preinfusion baseline levels (20.5 +/- 2.8% in obese and 28.6 +/- 6.3% in controls). In control subjects, integrated LH levels during naloxone infusion were not significantly elevated above those found during saline infusion, while obese subjects exhibited a 43% augmentation of integrated LH (31.0 +/- 5.3 ng/ml during naloxone vs. 21.7 +/- 1.8 ng/ml during saline, p < 0.05).(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

4-The effect of nalmefene on pulsatile secretion of luteinizing hormone and prolactin in men.

Graves GR, Kennedy TG, Weick RF, Casper RF.

Division of Reproductive Sciences, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Luteinizing hormone (LH) and prolactin are released in pulses which are relatively synchronous in the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle in women. The concordance of LH and prolactin pulses in normal men has not been reported. The objectives of this study were firstly to determine whether LH and prolactin pulses are synchronous in men, and secondly to examine the effects of naloxone and a new orally active opiate antagonist, nalmefene, on LH and prolactin release in men. Three groups of normal male subjects received saline infusion (control n = 5), naloxone infusion (2 mg/h; n = 5) or nalmefene (10 mg p.o.; n = 6). Blood samples were collected every 15 min for 2 h before and 6 h after study medication for determination of LH, prolactin and testosterone by radioimmunoassay. Both naloxone and nalmefene resulted in a significant increase in LH pulse frequency and in mean serum LH and testosterone concentrations with no change in LH pulse amplitude, prolactin pulse frequency or amplitude. In controls, 61% of LH pulses were synchronous with prolactin pulses. There was a decrease in concomitance of LH and prolactin pulses with naloxone (48%) and nalmefene (24%; P < 0.025) administration. In contrast, 52% of prolactin pulses were concomitant with LH pulses in controls, while naloxone (100%) but not nalmefene (67%) resulted in a significant (P < 0.01) increase in pulse synchrony. The difference observed between naloxone and nalmefene on prolactin--LH pulse synchrony is probably due to differential opioid receptor activity at the pituitary and hypothalamic level.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

5-Different effects of aging on the opioid mechanisms controlling gonadotropin and cortisol secretion in man.

Coiro V, Passeri M, Volpi R, Marchesi M, Bertoni P, Fagnoni F, Schianchi L, Bianconi L, Marcato A, Chiodera P.

Cattedra di Clinica Medica, Universita di Parma, Italia.

The present study was undertaken in order to assess the influence of aging on the endogenous opioid control of gonadotropin and adrenocorticotropin/cortisol secretion in man. For this purpose, the capability of the opioid antagonist naloxone to increase circulating levels of luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and cortisol was tested in male subjects of different ages. Thirty normal men were randomly chosen and divided into 3 groups by age: group I = 22-40 years (n = 10); group II = 41-59 years (n = 10); group III = 62-80 years (n = 10). Since the men of group III showed higher basal serum gonadotropin concentrations than the subjects of group I and group II, we selected from a large population a fourth group of elderly men with normal basal LH and FSH levels: group IV = 61-82 years (n = 7). All subjects were tested for 120 min during the intravenous administration of naloxone (4 mg given in an intravenous bolus at time 0, plus 10 mg infused for 2 h). Control tests with normal saline instead of naloxone were performed in all groups. All subjects had similar blood testosterone and cortisol levels, whereas LH and FSH concentrations were significantly higher in group III than in groups I, II and IV. Naloxone increased plasma cortisol concentrations by 50% in all groups. The cortisol secretory response followed a similar pattern regardless of age.(


6-Endorphins in male impotence: evidence for naltrexone stimulation of erectile activity in patient therapy.

Fabbri A, Jannini EA, Gnessi L, Moretti C, Ulisse S, Franzese A, Lazzari R, Fraioli F, Frajese G, Isidori A.

Institute of V Clinica Medica, University of Rome La Sapienza, Italy.

In the present study we evaluated whether naltrexone administration could stimulate sexual function in 30 male patients, ages 25 to 50 years, with idiopathic impotence of at least one year's duration and not of organic etiology. The patients received naltrexone (50 mg/day) or placebo, on a random basis for two weeks. Sexual performance, expressed as the number of full coitus/week, was assessed before (time 0) and during (on days 7 and 15) each treatment. The naltrexone therapy significantly increased the number of successful coitus compared to placebo after 7 and 15 days of treatment: improvement of sexual performance was evident in 11 out of the 15 treated patients. All the patients experienced a significant increase in morning and spontaneous full penile erections/week. No significant side effects were reported. Endocrine studies revealed no significant modification of plasma LH, FSH or testosterone by naltrexone, suggesting that the positive effect of the drug on sexual behavior was exerted at a central level. A two-month follow-up, at which time patients were off treatment, erectile capacity had returned to baseline in 10 patients, while five reported complete recovery of their sexual ability. We hypothesize that an alteration in central opioid tone is present in idiopathic impotence and is involved in the impairment of sexual behavior.
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

[heavyiron]

ok , i found out the DC HPTA upregulation protocol... its something like

Blast week (1 to 4) ; Test + Some anabolic
Blast week (1 to 4) : 0.5mg Arimidex
last 10 days 1000iu HCG/day
Cruise week (5 to 6) 50mg test p eod
Cruise week (5 to 6) 0.5mg Adex
Cruise week (5 to 6) clomid 300mg -day1, 200mg - day2, 150mg-day2, 100mg for rest of the cruise period. Clomid dose is insane and not needed.

the repeat the blast and the cruise.
then when you completely come off do a full PCT.

try to gain 5 pounds each blast.

heavyiron recommends;
while on cycle 500iu HCG x 2/week + 10mg Aromasin/day

PCT
2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG eod.)

100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3)

20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

10g creatine daily


Big A recommends: 5000iu HCG every 4 weeks ( 1000iu HCG/day shots for 5 days) or clomid 50mg everyother day while on then when totally coming off use GAIN KEEPERS FORMULA. <-Sounds like a sales pitch to me

PoWeR PCT protocol
Protocol was never an actual study. They make it sound all scientific until you read the fine print and you discover recovery was never actually measured by labs.

HCG 2500iu eod for day 1 to day 16
Clomid 100mg everyday/form day 1 to day 30
Nolvadex 20mg every day/ from day 1 to day 45

however william L is not worried much about LH levels he says that LH levels are restored to normal within 3 weeks after the cessaton of the drug.
he is more concerned about Testicular Atrophy, therefore he recommends bombarding the testis with a lot of HCG which will lead to rapid restoration of the testicular mass.
However the combined use of 2 antiestrogens which will continue to foster LH release as testosterone levels start to go back up.

he assures that normal hormonal fuctions were achieved in all the pts within 45 days..... as per Anabolics 2009


Dave Palumbo PCT protocol

- HCG: 2000mg every second day for two weeks
- Clomid: (start 2 weeks after conclusion of cycle) 50mg two times per day for two weeks Clomid duration too short
- Aromatase Inhibitor: Arimidex (.5mg every other day)
This will work but aromasin will not allow estro rebound like adex does

See red

[mr intensity]

thank you heavyiron

[bad rad]

I posted a study showing that Nolva doesn't block testicular estrogen. This localized estrogen blunted the testes response to HCG, knowing that HCG causes testicular estrogen release by activating aromatase shows why an AI is a must with HCG. This is really in reference to the PoWeR PCT since it substitutes Nolva for an AI.

[mr intensity]

I posted a study showing that Nolva doesn't block testicular estrogen. This localized estrogen blunted the testes response to HCG, knowing that HCG causes testicular estrogen release by activating aromatase shows why an AI is a must with HCG. This is really in reference to the PoWeR PCT since it substitutes Nolva for an AI.

great point bro...thanks

[mr intensity]

Dante Trudel on HCG, Clomid, Aromatase Inhibitor ON cycle and How to go OFF cycle

Now i have to comment.....on something i dont like to comment about.

I think the worst thing someone can do is be continuously on year round in high amounts......but regardless...a great many of the top competitors and (hell) random Joe Blow gym rats are on year round.

So here is the thing....the decisions you need to make

1) do you want to have kids some day? if the answer is yes, then I would be as sure as hell to send signals to the HPTA at predetermined intervals
2) do you want to be healthy? Im talking hematocrit, kidney health, cardiomyopathy, etc etc etc then you better as sure as hell take being on "year round" into account as it pertains to your health.
3) do you want to suffer muscle tears (low endo testosterone), low sex drive, lethargy, and disintegrate muscle size wise when you do FINALLY GET OFF......then you better sure as hell send signals to the HPTA at predetermined intervals.

Do you want to do one cycle a year and then be clean the rest of the year? Well that changes everything doesnt it? And my "supposed" 'HPTA upregulation whateverthingamajiggy above really wouldnt make sense now would it? Again it drives me absolutely bonkers when things I say get taken out of a context and I have no idea what that context was.

Do you want to do 2 eight week cycles this year and be off the other 36 weeks? Well that changes the whole equation totally also doesnt it?

This is all about personal choices. And when i comment on this stuff its in regarding the personal choice someone has made concerning their own BEING ON usage.

My opinion?

You tell me.......

Some of you guys hit every show as fans.....YOU TELL ME!

February = Ironman Pro bodybuilding championships
Did any pro's or top ams you saw at this show look alot smaller or soft to you?
March = Arnold classic
Did any pro's or top ams you saw at this show look alot smaller or soft to you?
May = NY pro show
Did any pro's or top ams you saw at this show look alot smaller or soft to you?
July = USA championships
Did any pro's or top ams you saw at this show look alot smaller or soft to you?
September = Olympia
Did any pro's or top ams you saw at this show look alot smaller or soft to you?
November = Nationals
Did any pro's or top ams you saw at this show look alot smaller or soft to you?

Throw in the Europa, Houston pro, all the guest posings year round, all the appearances, all the photo shoots, all the boothwork at expos!!!!!
Did any pro's or top ams you saw at this appearance look alot smaller or soft to you?

They aint getting off.

So you want my opinion....I'll give it to you below

Whats better?

Stay on year round and drive your HPTA into dormancy so fargone that you destroy any chances of having kids, drive your endo testosterone levels so low that you go into andropause at 32 years of age (when you TRY to maybe clean out for a little bit but panic because you feel so g'damn shitty so you go back on)......and if you do get off you disintegrate and muscle mass falls off you like its dead skin?!?!?!

or

(and ive caught more shit for this over the last decade than anything Ive ever talked about.....but ohhhhh I kind of proved my points over time and it actually DID WORK DIDN'T IT!).....Yes I will be the first to tell you I have a bug up my ass at the arguments i used to get into with this stuff with people telling me I was full of shit below

(sorry rant there) or

Is it better to send intermittent signals to the HPTA so there isnt a gigantic dormancy period?

Trust me on this......intermittent signals is the way to go. Every single one of my former trainee's can, will and/or have kids......including myself. My wife got pregnant in our 2nd month of trying when we decided to have kids and i have yet another one on the way in 2 months.

Now i had these huge huge huge arguments with people online many years back saying sending signals to the HPTA while on or having any tiny bit of outside source of testosterone in your body would do absolutely nothing.

I knew better. And I couldnt prove it until.....

---------------------------------------------------------------

The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate.

Tenover JS, Matsumoto AM, Plymate SR, Bremner WJ.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.

Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration. Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Look at the bold=normal healthy men with normal testosterone levels. So there isnt a need for an increase in total T and non-SHBG-bound levels but it happens anyway with the administration of clomid. That told me alot....and I knew i was on the right path with this stuff years ago. So all those people for all these years who have argued vociferously with me that PCT does absolutely nothing if testosterone is present whether endogenous or exogenous, got a big foot in the mouth with this study.

You dont need a total test level of 75 to 180 ng for clomiphene to work....it works regardless....and increased normal testosterone levels above by 100 to 304%.........signals to the HPTA Work!

So let me run thru some of my opinions here on all this and again this all comes down to choices.

1) I believe in 250-500IUS of HCG done 2x a week, done on the day before shots.....and believe this is one of the most important things any bodybuilder can do for himself to keep himself as "normalized as possible"....this is Swales recommendation and kudo's go to his work.....dont credit me in the least on this...because its 100% Swale
2)Clomid is a very hard compound for people to take, it makes alot of guys depressed, anxious and absolutely irritable....want to know what its like for your girlfriend/wife on her period? Thats clomid by 5x. It also works very well if you can hack it (alot of people cant)
3)This is just personal opinion and nothing more than that. I believe Letrozole is just too powerful. You need some estrogen for health reasons. Always remember homeostatis......if you drive your estrogen levels down to nothing, guess where your endo testosterone is going to go. And there is nothing more dangerous in my opinion than having seriously low testosterone levels, especially for endothelial/cardiac health. I would probably pick something like exemestane and use the least amount you can of it for an anti arom.
4) Nolvadex/tamoxifen i go back and forth on opinionwise as an anti est. Ive kind of soured on it again....
a) raises HDL
b) can raise LH, FSH and testosterone in some/most
c) can cause blood clots
d) can cause some retinal damage maybe in some
e) can potentially reduce IGF liberation

(yes Ive started to get to the opinion that steroids and testosterone are pretty safe but its all the ancillary stuff that people are using in large amounts that they think is like pez candy (but are in actuality pretty darn powerful) might be a big culprit in alot of the side effects (especially cardiovascular/lipid/clot wise) we are seeing.

so my opinions would be the following

while on, use the lowest amount of juice you can to make gains so you can always have something to go up to later. Ive seen LATS say this, Ive seen Evan C say this, and ive said this alot of the years......if you do 2 grams of test now when you are 205 pounds......what the hell are you going to have to use when you are 225 pounds and stuck? 4000-5000mg of test a week? What?!?!, till you get past your plateau or have a cardiovascular event?

while on

1) HCG 2x a week
2) if you must use an anti arom...then use exemestane at its lowest dose you can and maybe every 2nd or 3rd day.

always go 4 to 8 (maybe 12 weeks tops if you are still gaining) and then send signals to the HPTA.

Signals-

If i was someone who rarely or sporadically was on.....as I got off i would keep using HCG and exemestane (in the lowest dose possible).....along with clomid if i could hack it either cycled back and forth 2-3 weeks at a time with DAA (very excited by this compound, I think its going to be the one FINALLY EVERYONE HAS BEEN WAITING FOR) or with DAA concurrently (I dont know on that one...DAA is so new).....until the point I felt somewhat normalized....that might mean 1 month, 2 months, maybe even 3 months....depends on the individual......I would also use the lowest dose of clomid I could in that case also. Its all about getting back to normal endogenous testosterone wise. Getting back to normal solves everything....including longterm muscle mass retainment.
(If more people thought in the terms of "how can i get back to normal as quickly as possible after this cycle to keep all this muscle mass" instead of "how can i get get huge during this cycle, fuck what happens after"......there would be so many more happy and content bodybuilders around.....I digress

If I was someone who used year round, I would do everything in my power to keep my endo test levels as normalized as possible.

Every 4-12 weeks, I would try my best to either get completely off or very low dose testosterone (again depending on the individual and his own personal choices)......and use HCG, clom, exemestane and DAA to the best of my ability for 10 days to 3 weeks before getting back on again or raising the low dose testosterone back up...(but hey my opinion on low dose testosterone seems to be alot different than alot of people in this forum).....I am talking either completely off or pyramiding downward during the 10 days to 21 days or using a very low dose amount (25mg to 50mg every 4th day or so) during the 10 to 21 days......before going back up. Again my opinion of going back up means 500-750mg (maybe 1000mg for the big boys) and not the 2000mg and upwards of testosterone that it seems alot of 220 pounders use in this forum. Thats what I would do if I was using year round.

There I commented on something I didnt want to comment on because I felt I had to....LOL

[LookinFit75]

I am going to bump so I can read this later when I get back from work. Thanks to all involved for input.

[Defense]

Mr. Intensity & Heavy Iron:

Thanks for posting all this great info. I have been looking for the same info and now it's all in one place.

[heavyiron]

Keep in mind that many studies use between 25-100mg of Clomid daily. To use doses higher than this is likely not needed.

[LookinFit75]

Keep in mind that many studies use between 25-100mg of Clomid daily. To use doses higher than this is likely not needed.

I wouldn't dream of using more than that. I've actually never used Clomid as I was always advised not to do so. Seems like most everyone else says it's is necessary so the next go I will use it for sure.

[Cooker]

I was always advised not to do so.

Just curious why not?

[LookinFit75]

Just curious why not?

I was told it was toxic, causes estro related problems, (mood swings, female pattern fat gain, etc.) vision problems, and generally unhealthy to use.

[THE-DET-OAK]

I was told it was toxic, causes estro related problems, (mood swings, female pattern fat gain, etc.) vision problems, and generally unhealthy to use.


this is because people frontload 300mg with it........as long as you keep your dose under 100mg you shouldnt have any major sides. ive never used more than 50mg and thats all i needed.

[mr intensity]

this is because people frontload 300mg with it........as long as you keep your dose under 100mg you shouldnt have any major sides. ive never used more than 50mg and thats all i needed.


bump

[Doggcrapp]

ok , i found out the DC HPTA upregulation protocol... its something like

Blast week (1 to 4) ; Test + Some anabolic
Blast week (1 to 4) : 0.5mg Arimidex
last 10 days 1000iu HCG/day
Cruise week (5 to 6) 50mg test p eod
Cruise week (5 to 6) 0.5mg Adex
Cruise week (5 to 6) clomid 300mg -day1, 200mg - day2, 150mg-day2, 100mg for rest of the cruise period.

the repeat the blast and the cruise.
then when you completely come off do a full PCT.

try to gain 5 pounds each blast.



Again....THAT AINT "THE DC PROTOCOL"....and its the reason I wrote the long post in bold recently above. That looks like something similiar to what I speculated upon, that I wrote on a message board back in 1999 (10 years ago!) when alot of people were proposing (I think it was Bill Roberts and others but dont quote me on that because its so damn long ago I cant remember) that frontloading clomid might be usefull..... a post from a decade ago.

[mr intensity]

Again....THAT AINT "THE DC PROTOCOL"....and its the reason I wrote the long post in bold recently above. That looks like something similiar to what I speculated upon, that I wrote on a message board back in 1999 (10 years ago!) when alot of people were proposing (I think it was Bill Roberts and others but dont quote me on that because its so damn long ago I cant remember) that frontloading clomid might be usefull..... a post from a decade ago.

do you know dante... every thing you write...becomes the "laws of bodybuilding" .... and after all who else can we bodybuilders follow other than great trainer like you...

i have a compilation of all your posts which i have read almost 40 times.

last time you handed me my ass .... for posting the above "DC protocol"...but i took at as a coach blasting on his student ( even though you dont train me personally or even know me.... but i have learnt a lot from you)..... and i have to thank you for that....

and i sincerely apologize for posting the above DC protocol...

[heavyiron]

Again....THAT AINT "THE DC PROTOCOL"....and its the reason I wrote the long post in bold recently above. That looks like something similiar to what I speculated upon, that I wrote on a message board back in 1999 (10 years ago!) when alot of people were proposing (I think it was Bill Roberts and others but dont quote me on that because its so damn long ago I cant remember) that frontloading clomid might be usefull..... a post from a decade ago.
Thanks for clarifying. It is common for changes in protocols when we discover new science. It sucks that internet material is not dated when copy and pasted so guys can tell when it was originally written.

[scottmcd]

do you know dante... every thing you write...becomes the "laws of bodybuilding" ....


and that drives him nuts lol.

I said something in a PM today about a training idea that I think is a fairly good idea but I'd be furious/confused to see it repeated years later as absolute fact recommendation to everyone in every situation.


I respect Dante more than just about anybody on these boards knowledge wise and like the fact that he wasn't afraid to throw some controversial things out there on what he tried with himself and other guys... you make it incredibly hard for him to do things like that anymore if he wanted to when you cut and paste it around the net.

Please... stop? lol

[mr intensity]

and that drives him nuts lol.

I said something in a PM today about a training idea that I think is a fairly good idea but I'd be furious/confused to see it repeated years later as absolute fact recommendation to everyone in every situation.


I respect Dante more than just about anybody on these boards knowledge wise and like the fact that he wasn't afraid to throw some controversial things out there on what he tried with himself and other guys... you make it incredibly hard for him to do things like that anymore if he wanted to when you cut and paste it around the net.

Please... stop? lol

of course...