Jud's Comprehensive Pro-Hormone User Guide: Vol.1

[J2jud]

PRO-HORMONES/DESIGNER STEROIDS. By: Judson Clemons "J2jud"

These are compounds called Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS). Don't be fooled into thinking that just because they are labeled as such, the compound is nothing less than that of an actual steroid. Some have speculated that they are separated into classes based upon their ability to bind or not to bind to androgen receptors. I on the other hand have found otherwise. William Llewellyn says "Such classification only, and upon reasonable investigation are clearly invalid." Just in case you are wondering what classifications these compounds may be speculated to fall under, I will define them according to that belief. "Pro-hormone," is a term thrown around in forums quite often and is misleading to the everyday workout enthusiast, bodybuilder, and teenager looking to gain muscle. This term gives individuals the ignorant "ok," based on its legality and label of being a pro-hormone and not steroid. When an individual succumbs to this way of thinking there can be dire consequences. This article is a compilation of my beliefs from research that are more than likely shared by many others. The purpose of my efforts in writing this is to inform and educate new users and those who might have some questions regarding pro-hormones. I hope everyone who reads this finds it of some use.

FIRST TIME USERS GUIDE
First time users (21 and older) of pro-hormones should not be tempted by the use of the more potent AAS. It's good to start out with a "mild" type of pro-hormone. By starting out with a mild compound, this allows individuals to get their feet wet in the world of AAS. Never stack two or more compounds on your first cycle as you are just getting started, and don't want to cause any unnecessary side-effect occurrences. I personally recommend H-Drol as the sides are very mild to nonexistent in most users. Although, some users may not experience any associated sides, this does not mean that you are in the clear. Users are still highly advised to plan for PCT and use a SERM, as you can still be shutdown. SERM is referred to as Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, used to control estrogen. I will explain it's importance later on. Shutdown is the result of high amounts of exogenous hormones (testosterone) being administered, which results in your body hindering (to stop) the production of its own testosterone. This is commonly associated with testicular atrophy. Highly aromatizing androgens (or easily converted to estrogen) are going to cause this easier than non-aromatizing anabolics.

Cycle Length:
Cycles with methylated PHs should last no longer than 4-5 weeks at the recommended dosage. Limiting your cycle to this time period will relieve the stress being put on your liver from the methylated compounds. Temptation of running the pro-hormone past a period of 4-5 weeks should be avoided by new users, as gains are most likely to plateau around week 4.5. New users that continue to cycle past the suggested time frame should only expect side effects to heighten or become more exaggerated. Advanced users can quite possibly lengthen their methylated cycle to 6 weeks on certain compounds. This is not recommended for compounds with high toxicity risks such as Superdrol. None-methylated compounds can be cycled for 8-10 weeks without the risking liver toxicity.
Novice users:
* Limit cycle length to 4-5 weeks.
* Take the recommended dosage.
* Advanced users can cycle up to 6 weeks.
Non-Methylated Prohormones
Compounds without a methyl attachment are called non-methyls. These compounds are not as effective as methylated compounds on a milligram to milligram basis. However, these compounds are very effective when dosed at the correct amount and period of time. BOLD is a good example of non-methyl that will produce amazing gains without the risk of liver stress. BOLD's effectiveness should not be underestimated as individuals can experience the same side effects as methylated pro-hormones. Since there is a low to zero chance of liver toxicity from these compounds, cycle lengths can be ran to a period of 8 weeks. There have been some individuals who go over 8 weeks and into 10 weeks, but I believe this to be considerable among users who have experience with past cycles. New users or advanced users that want a liver friendly cycle will enjoy both steady strength and muscle gains that are comparable to four week methyl cycles if ran at the appropriate dose.
o EX: Non-Methylated Prohormones:
o - BOLD
o - Propadrol
o - Furazadrol
o - Tren, Trenaplex, Trenadrol
PCT (Post Cycle Therapy)
PCT is a used practice when coming off of a cycle of AAS (Anabolic Androgenic Steroids) to regain homeostasis of testosterone and estrogen and keep the gains of your cycle in tact. This will be the most important part of keeping gains made "on cycle." If performed improperly, you risk losing gained muscle/strength and libido (not good). A very common occurrence when PCT is neglected is the formation of breast tissue around the nipples, called "gynecomastia." The use of a SERM is the best choice for accomplishing the prevention of breast tissue in PCT. A SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) should be the foundation of your PCT. Never start a cycle before obtaining all the necessary components of your PCT, and never leave your SERM out of the equation. You don"t want to be without SERM when your cycle ends or you could run into some estrogen related sides. Adding a SERM to your PCT is the most important recovery tool that is neglected by many users and usually ends up with a bundle of problems that could have been solved with the use of a SERM. Users may want to add a Natural Testosterone booster into PCT to bring sex drive/libido up to par if need be. Cortisol Controllers are not an essential either, but many believe in their use for fighting the catabolic effects one would see in PCT. Creatine (in my belief) should be an essential part of ones PCT to keep muscle hydrated and strength levels high. Creatine is also a very useful anti-catabolic tool in PCT efforts. Dieting during PCT should be the same as "on cycle." With the newly acquired muscle there is a higher caloric intake that you must meet in order to retain new muscle mass. I cannot stress this fact enough to everyone; if you don't eat and diet properly then you will be more than likely to lose gains, fast!

Aromatase Inhibitors:
Aromatase Inhibitors, inhibit/stop the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. The use of over the counter AIs (Aromatase Inhibitors) are sometimes used in place of a SERM for mild cycles or when one is unavailable. Although, some are very effective at eradicating estrogen, their use should not be used in PCT as the foundation for recovery. The use of O.T.C AI's is considered by most; inefficient at accomplishing the goal of PCT and is not recommended for fully recovering from a cycle. AI's can be used during cycle to prevent gynecomastia from aromatizing androgens such as testosterone and Dianabol. Individuals using Cycles in which a mild compound is involved such as H-Drol/halodrol, an O.T.C AI + natural testosterone booster could quite possibly accomplish the task of recovering from a mild PH cycle. Even though I say this, one should always have a SERM on hand while using O.T.C. products for recovery.

SERM
SERMs inhibit estrogen like actions in certain tissues of the body/ regulate estrogen to a manageable level in PCT. A SERM cannot and should not be a question when dealing with anything more than the suggested "mild" pro-hormones. Aromatase Inhibitors should only be used for the suggested "mild" PH's and never for compounds which are given a characteristic that is considered more than mild. Some will tell you that taking an O.T.C type PCT is ok, where an AI such as: "Novedex-XT," is the foundation for their Superdrol cycle. This is simply not true and is very misleading. To believe an individual will fully recover with a O.T.C product like Novedex-XT is ridiculous. Here are some general PCT plans for both mild and advanced compounds:
Sample PCT for mild PH cycle:
o AI (6-OXO/Formestane/ATD)
- Taper from max dosage week by week (4 weeks total)
o Natural Testosterone Booster (Blue-Up/STOKED)
- Run throughout the beginning of PCT.
o Liver care (Anabolic Innovations: Cycle Support)
o **optional** Cortisol control ( SNS: Reduce-XT)
o Creatine

Sample PCT for Advanced PH cycle:
o SERM (Nolvadex)
---( 40mg/40mg/20mg/20mg)
0 Natty Testosterone Booster
0 Liver Care
0 **optional** Cortisol Control
0 Creatine

Liver Support "All-In-One" (on cycle) Options:
- Anabolic Innovations: Cycle Support
- SAMe
- Liver Longer (Thermolife)
- Cycle Assist (Competitive Edge Nutrition)
- **There are many more, but these seem to be the most popular.

Natural Testosterone Support Options:
- Anabolic Innovations: Post Cycle Support
- MASS-FX
- Stoked
- Activate Xtreme
- Blue-UP
- Universal Animal Stak
- HumanaTEST
- Testabolan
- (many more)

[J2jud]

STACKING: PRO-HORMONES/DESIGNER STEROIDS
In my belief pro-hormones should be classified by methylation. You should never stack a methyl with another methyl due to the increased risk of liver stress/damage. However, some may stack two methylated compounds at lower dosages without too much risk but should be limited to a brief period. Before actually stacking certain compounds together I recommend cycling with each individual compound before stacking. When stacking one compound foreign to you with another that has been cycled before, you may have an undesired side effect from that compound not yet cycled. Cycling two compounds unfamiliar to your body is dangerous and can result in a very unpleasant experience for you and your body. Cycling each compound exclusively allows for the assessment of your tolerance to a specific compound and the expected results/effects of that compound. When putting together a cycle based on experience and research, you will have certain side-effects to expect and gains to expect while "on cycle." Also, a user might want to assess the PCT required for a cycle of this magnitude as opposed to non-stacked cycles.

When deciding upon a stacking scheme you must take in account that it is better to stack methyls with non-methylated compounds. This can greatly reduce the risk of liver damage/failure. Example: Phera + BOLD is a methyl + a non-methylated compound and has a lower risk of side effects associated with using high amounts of methylated compounds. Superdrol + Havoc, is an example of a methyl + methyl that will surely end up in disaster. In my belief only users that have many proper cycles under their belt could consider stacking two methyls or bridging them at the appropriate milligram to milligram ratio. Even with methyls being introduced at a specific ratio; I think it's still idiotic to say the least. I do however, believe that non-methyls like BOLD are a much better choice to go with when stacking compounds. The given examples lack dosage protocol simply because there are too many people that have different needs/experiences and giving my thoughts of dosage wouldn?t be relevant for many, due to weight and experience. Novice users should follow normal dosages recommended by product label for the most part.



Suggested Example Stacks:


- P-Plex + BOLD
o Weeks 1-3
---- BOLD (only)
o Weeks 4-8
---- BOLD + P-Plex

- Havoc/Epi + BOLD or Trena
o- **Run the same way as P-Plex + BOLD.**
TIME OFF:
Taking time off from the use of pro-hormones/AAS is very important for continuing ones growth and health. Individuals need this time off from using hormonal substances to regain normal hormonal levels in your body. This allows your body time to fully recover from the hormonal havoc you've bestowed upon it for a period of time. During this time you should feel free to use NHA's (Non Hormonal Anabolics). Time off should be equal to the cycle length plus PCT.

Sample Time Off:
Cycle length = 4 weeks
PCT Length = 4 weeks
Total time off = 8 weeks

COMMON ASSOCIATED SIDE EFFECTS:
- Acne
- Aggression
- Anaphylactic Shock
- Birth Defects
- Blood Clotting Changes
- (rare) Cancer
- Cardiovascular Disease
- Depression
- Gynecomastia
- Hair Loss
- Headaches
- High Blood pressure/Hypertension
- Immune System Changes
- Kidney Stress/Damage
- Liver Stress/Damage
- Prostate Enlargement
- Sexual Dysfunction
- Stunted Growth
- Testicular Atrophy
- Water and Salt Retention
- Virilization (women only)


** If you are interested in seeing the common gains, and side effects, and specifics of compounds: please visit**
1.)Xc (http://www.prohormoneforum.com/showthread.php?t=3296321)
2.)Superdrol for Dummies (http://www.prohormoneforum.com/showthread.php?t=519245)
3.)M1T (http://www.prohormoneforum.com/showthread.php?t=420872)
4.)Iforce: BOLD (http://www.prohormoneforum.com/showthread.php?t=3498341)
5.)1AD (http://www.prohormoneforum.com/showthread.php?t=421298)
6.)11-OXO (http://www.prohormoneforum.com/showthread.php?t=106428581)
7.)Ratings (http://www.prohormoneforum.com/showthread.php?t=4300443)
8.)Profiles (http://www.prohormoneforum.com/showthread.php?t=4658363)
9.)Patrick Arnold: norandrostenedione (http://www.prohormoneforum.com/showthread.php?t=106444821)


Theoretical Class I:

MADOL (Desoxymethyltestosterone/DMT)
- (Phera Plex/P-Plex)
- Compound: 17a-Methyl-etioallocholan-2-ene-17b-ol

METHEPITIOSTANE
- (Havoc/Epistane)
- Compound: 2a-3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

BOLDENONE
(1,4AD & BOLD)
-Compound: 1,4-androstadiene-3,17-dione

PROGESTINE
(Trenadrol & Trenaplex)
- Compound (Trenadrol): 17b-Methoxy-Trienbolone (Trenadrol)
- Compound (Trenaplex): Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione
- Compound (Trena): 19-Norandrosta 4, 9 Diene 3, 17 Dione
- Compound: 19-Norandrostenedione


TESTOSTERONE
(M1T)
- Compound (M1T): 17alpha methyl- 17beta-hydroxy- androst-1-ene-3-one

Theoretical Class II:

MASTERONE
(Superdrol & Clones)
- Compound: 2a, 17a dimethyl-5a- androstane- 17b-ol-3-one

ORAL TURINABOL
(Halodrol-50 & Clones)
- Compound (Halo): 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3,17-diol

CLOSTEBOL
(Chlorodrol & Oxyguno)
- Compound (Chlorodrol): 4-chlorodehydromethylandrost-4ene-3,17b-diol
- Compound (Oxyguno): 4-chloro-17 -methyl- etioallochol-4-ene- 17 -ol-3,11-dione

STANOZOLOL
(Winztrol, Orastan-A, Furaguno & Clones)
- Compound (winztrol/Prostanozol): [3,2-c]-pyrazole-5alpha-etioallocholane-17beta-tetrahydropyranol
- Compound (Furaguno): 5a- androstano[2,3-c]furazan-17b-tetrahydropyranol
- Compound (Orastan-A): [3,2-c]5alpha-androstanol-furazan-17beta-tetrahydropyranol

PROGESTERONE
(Revolt, Propadrol)
- Compound (Revolt): 13-ethyl-3methoxygona-2, 5(10)-dien-17-one
- Compound (Propadrol): 6-17 dihydroxyetiocholone-3-ol proponate-12-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-diene

DIANABOL
(M1,4ADD)
- Compound (M1,4ADD): Methyl-1,4 androstenediol

MIOTOLAN (FURAZABOL)
(Furazadrol)
- Compound (Furazadrol): 17-Methyl-5alpha-androstano[2,3-c]furazan-17beta-ol


SERM LIST

CLOMIPHENE CITRATE
- Clomid

RALOXIFENE
- Evista

TAMOXIFEN CITRATE
- Nolvadex

TOREMIFENE CITRATE
- Fareston

BAZEDOXIFENE

LASOXIFENE

ORMELOXIFENE
- Centchroman

PHARMACEUTICAL AROMATASE INHIBITORS:

ANASTROZOLE
- Arimidex

EXEMESTANE
- Aromasin

LETROZOLE
- Femara

OVER -THE- COUNTER AROMATASE INHIBITORS

ATD
- Novedex-XT

TRIONE
- 6-oxo (4-androstene-3,6,17-trione)

FORMESTANE
- Lentaron, Formadrol

6-BROMO
- Hyperdrol X2, Restore


Reference:
- William Llewellyn. _Anabolics 6th Edition 2007_. 6th. Jupiter, Fl 33458: Body of Science, 2007.

[Bacon Boy]

Really nicely done! Hopefully will get the sticky status soon!

[J2jud]

Really nicely done! Hopefully will get the sticky status soon!

Thank you. Feel free to post questions in the forum and I will answer them.

[huge285]

This is great info!

[Aaron Singerman]

Nice post Jud! Welcome to the team!

[J2jud]

This is great info!


Nice post Jud! Welcome to the team!

Thanks guys. I'm glad to be here and help. Hopefully my next volume will be just as useful than this one, if not more. I've been working on it for quite some time now... mostly due to colleges demands. I'm hoping I'll be able to devote time to finishing what I started and let everyone see what I've been working on.

[Hardcore]

One of the best DS articles I have read. Good one mate!

[Hardcore]

Do you think delayed Gyno is a myth?

[robert da strongman]

liking it!


so what is out there that is worth anything?

loved the old 1AD

[J2jud]

One of the best DS articles I have read. Good one mate!

Thank you! Much appreciated!


Do you think delayed Gyno is a myth?

No, I don't believe it's just a myth. There's been a lot of evidence and cases of onset of delayed gyno. Most of what I've seen has to deal with overuse and abuse of aromatase inhibitors on cycle and after. This is accomplished through an overcompensation of the hormonal axis by the endocrine system to try and shift the "problem" it's being subjected to, in turn, when coming off of PCT sometimes the onset of delayed gyno occurs.


liking it!


so what is out there that is worth anything?

loved the old 1AD

There are a couple to name. For adding mass, my favorite compound would be Phera and it's clones. I experience good increases in lean mass and strength without much noticable side effects. For cutting/recomp purposes, I will always go with either Halo or Havoc. I usually respond very well to Halo which is why I continue to use it.

On the non-methylated side of things, I have been very fond of Adrenosterone (11-OXO/Super 11-Test) which is a very good stacking compound. BOLD, is another non-methyl thats of significant value if one is considering to bulk. The only downside to it's use is the price tag it carries. I've yet to use BOLD simply because of this reason. Adrenosterone is no different, nor are the rest of the non-methylated compounds. These compounds are best used in a stacking scheme as opposed to using them on their own.

[Prince]

nice work.

[Rodzilla]

you don't see a problem with incorporating a divanil product (which could lower total test) at the start of PCT? I've heard you should gereally wait 2 weeks.

[robert da strongman]

thanks!!

[J2jud]

you don't see a problem with incorporating a divanil product (which could lower total test) at the start of PCT? I've heard you should gereally wait 2 weeks.

Actually, I do hold this opinion. I've talked about this many times on other forums as I believe that the incorporation of divanil should be used either during the last phase of PCT or after PCT when testosterone levels are at least in your "normal" range.

I include the names of some products that contain divanil, but I don't really recommend their use in an OTC PCT, but leave that up to the user. I've left out this topic of interest, in hopes of discussing it in my next volume.

[ZacharyKane]

Really informative post, nice work

[J2jud]

Really informative post, nice work

Thank you very much. I'm very pleased everyone likes it.

[spasatel]

Great info , i learned a lot from your post !
THANKS !!!

[J2jud]

Great info , i learned a lot from your post !
THANKS !!!

You're welcome. If you ever have any questions, please ask.

[robert da strongman]

Jud,
what is out there that is good for strength?

[TheJackHammer]

great info man. his should be helpful in the long run.

[J2jud]

Jud,
what is out there that is good for strength?

Compounds like 19-Nor/"tren" clones are usually good for strength. Some methylated compounds like Phera, SD, and Dymethazine (new DS) are good for adding some strength. But most power lifters will usually go with 19-Nor to add some good strength. If I were going to use 19-Nor, I probably stack it with either Phera or Dymethazine.


great info man. his should be helpful in the long run.

Thanks. I hope so :)

[TheJackHammer]

Thanks. I hope so :)

hey where did you learn all this stuff about pro-hormones? i would love to read up on it and learn as much as i can, cause it just really interesting.

[bigdaddyd]

What I have not seen anywhere (and maybe I just missed it) was if BOLDwill elevate your blood pressure. Do you have any idea about that? I did look but oddly enough I haven't found anything on that so I don't know if its just me or what.....

[robert da strongman]

Compounds like 19-Nor/"tren" clones are usually good for strength. Some methylated compounds like Phera, SD, and Dymethazine (new DS) are good for adding some strength. But most power lifters will usually go with 19-Nor to add some good strength. If I were going to use 19-Nor, I probably stack it with either Phera or Dymethazine.


thanks for that info.

[musclempire]

I have run bold for 8 weeks at 800 mgs multiple times and always have slight increases in blood pressure but never enough of an increase to take me out of the normal range for a man my age..I have heard a few people freak out about bp while taking bold but they dont usually post numbers so im not sure how high their bp actually gets or are they just scared of even a small increase

[bigdaddyd]

I have run bold for 8 weeks at 800 mgs multiple times and always have slight increases in blood pressure but never enough of an increase to take me out of the normal range for a man my age..I have heard a few people freak out about bp while taking bold but they dont usually post numbers so im not sure how high their bp actually gets or are they just scared of even a small increase

I didn't measure my BP but I could tell it was up. I am only at 400mgs just to make sure I am tolerating it. I am bumping up to 600mg tomorrow and 800mg the day after and next week adding hdrol. Anyway, I could tell it was up but did not measure it.

Thanks for the follow up

[bigdaddyd]

So, I just found a couple of threads elsewhere "(NOT MD...LOL)about the blood pressure rise being a side affect. Any suggestions on what might counteract this? Anything that will not affect the original usage of BOLD?

[J2jud]

So, I just found a couple of threads elsewhere "(NOT MD...LOL)about the blood pressure rise being a side affect. Any suggestions on what might counteract this? Anything that will not affect the original usage of BOLD?

I always recommend using garlic at about 2x the recommended dosages. I use garlic as a staple in my diet. When "on cycle" I'd recommend taking a serving with each meal. This has always kept my BP at a very manageable levels and never get out of hand. It won't effect your cycle, but may actually improve it.

[DOIT]

fantastic thank you

[bigdaddyd]

I always recommend using garlic at about 2x the recommended dosages. I use garlic as a staple in my diet. When "on cycle" I'd recommend taking a serving with each meal. This has always kept my BP at a very manageable levels and never get out of hand. It won't effect your cycle, but may actually improve it.

Great! I am currently taking 1000mg of garlic per day (one dose). I will up that to twice a day and see what happens. As far as the 800mg for BOLD, is this all at once? spread evenly throughout the day? I have seen it run the gamut as far as what and when. your advice? Thanks

[musclempire]

1 cap 4 times a day inbetween meals not with them..this is suggested by many who take illegal orals and also in ANABOLICS

[J2jud]

Great! I am currently taking 1000mg of garlic per day (one dose). I will up that to twice a day and see what happens. As far as the 800mg for BOLD, is this all at once? spread evenly throughout the day? I have seen it run the gamut as far as what and when. your advice? Thanks


1 cap 4 times a day inbetween meals not with them..this is suggested by many who take illegal orals and also in ANABOLICS

Actually with non-methylated hormones there is a need of fat to cause good absorption of the compound. Around 10g of fat is perfect with each dose.

Divide the dosages as even as you can throughout the day and take like I previously suggested with a substantial amount of fat. EVOO is a good source.

[knine110]

I see that you recommend Tren. I have taken Tren Xtreme by Americell and got great results in both size and strength. The last time I stacked it with HMG and used HyperTEST and Estro Xtreme for PCT. Do you think this was correct or should I go with something else for PCT.

Thanks

[v1hyp]

Great Info,, Thanks for posting it.

[bigdaddyd]

Actually with non-methylated hormones there is a need of fat to cause good absorption of the compound. Around 10g of fat is perfect with each dose.

Divide the dosages as even as you can throughout the day and take like I previously suggested with a substantial amount of fat. EVOO is a good source.


Thanks again, I will give it a try.

[BigJD69]

Dude AWESOME POST!!! This should be a Sticky!!!

[J2jud]

I see that you recommend Tren. I have taken Tren Xtreme by Americell and got great results in both size and strength. The last time I stacked it with HMG and used HyperTEST and Estro Xtreme for PCT. Do you think this was correct or should I go with something else for PCT.

Thanks

Hypertest isn't exactly the best testosterone booster, but should be fine. I would consider using CLOMID if you can get a hold of any. OTC methods are very costly and sometimes lead to a loss in gains... depending on your endocrine system. If you must go OTC, I might suggest using 6-BROMO + DRIVE and ALCAR if you go OTC again.

[SonOfPluto]

Awesome post, thank you very much!

[cardiomommy]

I'm cardiomommys husband and I have a question. can I take Furazadrol if I'm on medication for a seizure disorder? I was not born with this disorder and have not had one in about ten and a half years, or maybe I can try a natural test booster? I've been training for awhile and I'm looking for alittle boost.

[J2jud]

I'm cardiomommys husband and I have a question. can I take Furazadrol if I'm on medication for a seizure disorder? I was not born with this disorder and have not had one in about ten and a half years, or maybe I can try a natural test booster? I've been training for awhile and I'm looking for alittle boost.

I would honestly look into a test booster like ACtivaTe Xtreme, Drive, or Stoked before looking into cycling AAS. If you do decide to go hormonal, have things cleared with your doctor. Something you shouldn't use would be any Phera clones or 19-Nor based compounds, as these will certainly elevate your BP in a bad way. This might induse a bad reaction that you don't want. Maybe something mild, like Super 11-TEST/11-OXO, HALO, or Furazadrol. These would be your best bet for avoiding any nasty reactions.

But my best piece of advice would be to talk to your doctor as I don't know your health history, medications or what caused/causes your seizures. Talk to him about elevated hormonal supplementation and the interaction with your medications.

[cardiomommy]

Thank You for the advice. I take dilantin. The seizure disorder I have is a result from an accident where I hit my head. I'm just asking because I wanted to know what to expect from my doctor when I pose the same question to him, he's old fashioned.
Thank You for the answer to my question.

[Greg0ry]

J.... whens this V.2 coming out?!?

[InfinityCrisis6]

Wow impressive. "Thank You for the info!!

[BigD]

I have been lifting for the past 4 years now, and am doing good as far as muscle gains and maturity, but i know in the future i will take some kind of enhancement supplements, im trying to get more knowledgeable about steroids and try to read but always get lost and loose interest... what would be a good way to learn about all the different kinds of drugs and not overwhelm myself ?

[J2jud]

I have been lifting for the past 4 years now, and am doing good as far as muscle gains and maturity, but i know in the future i will take some kind of enhancement supplements, im trying to get more knowledgeable about steroids and try to read but always get lost and loose interest... what would be a good way to learn about all the different kinds of drugs and not overwhelm myself ?

First, I would say to learn and understand my guide as it is filled with the basics of cycling prohormones and designer steroids. Then you might want to research specific compounds and see if you can find any that match your goals.

[v1hyp]

Week four (40mg)of a havoc cycle, How long would I be able to go with this until I start my PCT. Right now, I plan on going for six weeks and upping to around 50-60mg for the last two weeks. what are your thoughts?

[J2jud]

Week four (40mg)of a havoc cycle, How long would I be able to go with this until I start my PCT. Right now, I plan on going for six weeks and upping to around 50-60mg for the last two weeks. what are your thoughts?

I would be careful about how long you run EPI/Havoc as it is suppressive to estrogen levels if you plan on using an AI for PCT (which I don't recommend). You could experiment with the compound if you like, but usually there are no reported "increased" gains past 45-50mg. Be sure to use Clomid as it's the least anti-estrogenic of SERMs, this will reduce your chances of have the onset of delayed gyno that is commonly reported with high dosages/long cycles of this compound. Mainly due to long durations of estrogen suppression.

[v1hyp]

I would be careful about how long you run EPI/Havoc as it is suppressive to estrogen levels if you plan on using an AI for PCT (which I don't recommend). You could experiment with the compound if you like, but usually there are no reported "increased" gains past 45-50mg. Be sure to use Clomid as it's the least anti-estrogenic of SERMs, this will reduce your chances of have the onset of delayed gyno that is commonly reported with high dosages/long cycles of this compound. Mainly due to long durations of estrogen suppression.

This is what I plan on using for my PCT;
Reversitol
SAME
and maybe some 6-oxo

Thanks for your responce bro.

[J2jud]

This is what I plan on using for my PCT;
Reversitol
SAME
and maybe some 6-oxo

Thanks for your responce bro.

See, this is what I was talking about. 6-OXO & Reversitol are all AI's (3 AIs to be exact). I can almost guarantee that you will not like the outcome during PCT and post-PCT. Especially combining 3 AI's. You don't want to run these compounds after EPI. Like I mentioned before, EPI suppresses estrogen and then combine that with an AI (especially 3) you are probably going to experience delayed onset of gyno. Your body doesn't want estrogen to be suppressed for long periods of time, because eventually your body will start to fight you. Upregulation of E2 receptors is a very common result when long periods of E2 are suppressed. Go with a SERM.

[v1hyp]

See, this is what I was talking about. 6-OXO & Reversitol are all AI's (3 AIs to be exact). I can almost guarantee that you will not like the outcome during PCT and post-PCT. Especially combining 3 AI's. You don't want to run these compounds after EPI. Like I mentioned before, EPI suppresses estrogen and then combine that with an AI (especially 3) you are probably going to experience delayed onset of gyno. Your body doesn't want estrogen to be suppressed for long periods of time, because eventually your body will start to fight you. Upregulation of E2 receptors is a very common result when long periods of E2 are suppressed. Go with a SERM.

Thanks, I don't know if this makes a difference but I had Gyno way back when and had to have them surgically remover along with the glands. Thanks for your responce.

[hulkish808]

What's a good cutting cycle along with the PCT after that? Also, is it safe to take something like Xenadrine while on a cutting cycle?

[DaPulse]

Jud

Have you seen any feed back on Primadrol's new 1-T product? It's a transdermal and very expensive but if it's legit it would be great to stake with a Methyl front loaded for a kick start. Also do you have any idea what is in Kilo Sports new OxAnavar?

[hulkish808]

Where can I buy clomid from? WebMD says it's a fertility drug for women...?

[mindfcuk]

J2
I love the super tren mg, so you are saying it could be used for 8 weeks safely? And what doses are good for a guy WHO LOVES TREN but hates to pin ED and currently 235lbs?
Also could it cause the mythed prolactin nips that tren and deca can cause?

[mindfcuk]

Jud

Have you seen any feed back on Primadrol's new 1-T product? It's a transdermal and very expensive but if it's legit it would be great to stake with a Methyl front loaded for a kick start. Also do you have any idea what is in Kilo Sports new OxAnavar?

Oxanavar: Its epistane thats all...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260355990159&SID=P11S2005i

[DaPulse]

Oxanavar: Its epistane thats all...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260355990159&SID=P11S2005i

That sucks, thanks anyway. :(

[J2jud]

What's a good cutting cycle along with the PCT after that? Also, is it safe to take something like Xenadrine while on a cutting cycle?

A good cutting cycle would be Straight 11-TEST + Epi or a more experienced user could use Straight 11-TEST + EPI + 19-Nor. PCT should be Clomid + Creatine + L-Carnitine. During cycle you really should add in 2000mg of garlic extract 2-3x a day to keep BP at bay, along with liver care.



Jud

Have you seen any feed back on Primadrol's new 1-T product? It's a transdermal and very expensive but if it's legit it would be great to stake with a Methyl front loaded for a kick start. Also do you have any idea what is in Kilo Sports new OxAnavar?

Not much on 1-T, as it's too new and havent heard much chatter. But given the compound and it's transdermal delivery, it should be quite good. Just remember with transdermals, you need to apply them to extremely clean areas. I recommend exfoliation before applying for maximum absorption and not bringing in external chemicals.


Where can I buy clomid from? WebMD says it's a fertility drug for women...?

It's a SERM. It's given to women for the reason you stated, but it's action within males is a little different than with women. It's use for PCT is due to it's ability to restore the hormonal axis to normal levels after a cycle of AAS. Clomid is also my SERM of choice as it restores LH and FSH levels quite quickly when compared to Nolva. I cannot tell you where to purchase this product from.


J2
I love the super tren mg, so you are saying it could be used for 8 weeks safely? And what doses are good for a guy WHO LOVES TREN but hates to pin ED and currently 235lbs?
Also could it cause the mythed prolactin nips that tren and deca can cause?

This "version" of Tren is more apt to aggravating gyno. So, the higher the dosages the more likely you are to develop progestin related gyno. But my recommendations for you would be around 120mg, possibly higher depending on your response to the compound. It's quite subjective. It can be used for 8 weeks safely, and I reccomend it's use to be stacked with a methylated compound for optimal gains for 5-6 weeks.

[mindfcuk]

Thank you I appreciate the answer, so I know some cabeser would be an order if I choose to employ the higher doses.

[J2jud]

Thank you I appreciate the answer, so I know some cabeser would be an order if I choose to employ the higher doses.

Yes, you could use it but be very cautious with your dosages. I might suggest that you use vitex + p-5-p before using caber.

[TheJackHammer]

what is this compound and what is it best for Diandrone, Trans-4-Hydroxy-3-Methoxycinnamic Acid 200m thanks

[CichirelloMagnet]

Hey Jud,

Have you used Post Cycle Therapy from Anabolic Innovations? It seems to be sold with the Cycle Therapy powder. What would it take the place of?

[J2jud]

what is this compound and what is it best for Diandrone, Trans-4-Hydroxy-3-Methoxycinnamic Acid 200m thanks

Oh, I see you found SARM-X? DHEA (diandrone) + ferulic acid..... not a SARM. We all know what DHEA does.... but ferulic acid? Well, it has been shown to have very good antioxidant, and anti-infammatory properties (reduces prostaglandins). Not much else can be said other than it's marketing is quite good, especially when you give a fancy name to DHEA and then make ferulic acid look like a pro-hormone. :rolleyes:


Hey Jud,

Have you used Post Cycle Therapy from Anabolic Innovations? It seems to be sold with the Cycle Therapy powder. What would it take the place of?

No. I've not used it at all. But it is a good addition to any solid PCT. This product would be best used at a test booster and mild estrogen management product.

[CichirelloMagnet]

Jud,

How does this look for a first cycle, novice user.

Here's what I'm thinking for the cycle:

h-drol: Week 1: 25 mg
Week 2: 25 mg
Week 3: 50 mg
Week 4: 50 mg

pct: 6-OXO: 300mg/300mg/200mg/100mg
Blue-up
Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support
Lean Xtreme
Creatine Mono

[J2jud]

Jud,

How does this look for a first cycle, novice user.

Here's what I'm thinking for the cycle:

h-drol: Week 1: 25 mg
Week 2: 25 mg
Week 3: 50 mg
Week 4: 50 mg

pct: 6-OXO: 300mg/300mg/200mg/100mg
Blue-up
Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support
Lean Xtreme
Creatine Mono

Actually, it sounds pretty good, but you could extend the cycle to 5-6 weeks with this particular compound as most of the gains come within the 2-3rd week, as this varies from persons to person. Halo is quite easy on the liver, but precautions should still be made as everyone reacts to compounds somewhat differently. This should be an excellent cycle.

Sample:
Week1: - 25mg (first 2 days) 50mg the rest of week
week2: - 50mg
week3: - 50mg
week4: - 50mg
week5: - 75mg
week6: - 75mg

[newbie]

I was thinking about using H-Drol...

I am a Male 33yrs old, 257lbs, 5'-11", decently strong, bit flabby for my taste, used to lift a ton of weight (power lift style) until I had shoulder surgery, still can put up decent weight, but I just don't go heavy anymore, I go more for the pump, feel, tired of being strong and not looking appealing. I did do a couple of cycles of Andro back in the day (10 years or so ago) and it felt like I was superman when I was on it. To block estrogen I just used Chrysin...is that not choice anymore? Or was I just a moron? I would like not to be a moron anymore, thank you for your write-up btw. :)

Normally I take a B-Complex, E-Complex, Zinc-Complex, Lecithin (I do it for liver), Omega-3, Multi, Caffine (200mg first thing in morning), White Willow Bark. [Was thinking the Lecithin and anti-oxidants would support my liver enough not to have to take additional things you call for.] Beta-Alanine before and after workout, muscle milk throughout the day. Was going to re-introduce ECA back into my supplements, because I just found out that I can buy it...

Since many supplements love to use names that confuse I want to be clear in what I want to do:

Cycle
H-Drol by FastAction
Week 1-25mg (first two days) 50mg day 3-7
Week 2-50mg
Week 3-50mg
Week 4-50mg

PCT
Revive T by FastAction
1 tablet each day for 28 days

[you call for more things on PCT, does Revive T take care of all of this?]

Off
56 days.

[Mass Construction]

jud can you tell me what you think about this m-drol first cycle plz

M-drol
Week 1 : 10 mg+4 caps liv 52
Week 2 : 20 mg+4 caps liv 52
Week 3 : 20 mg or 30 mg+caps liv 52

PCT : clomid 100-50-50

[Pikis Kolis]

Jud,

I was thinking of taking the following cycle:

Week 1: H-Drol 2 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 2: H-Drol 2 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 3: H-Drol 2 caps per day; E-Stane 3 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 4: H-Drol 2 caps per day; E-Stane 3 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 5: E-Stane 3 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 6: E-Stane 3 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 7: PCT Assist 2 Caps 2x per day (two AM, two PM) Inhibit E 3 caps per day (1 in morning, 2 at night).

Week 8: PCT Assist 2 Caps 2x per day (two AM, two PM) Inhibit E 2 caps per day (1 in morning, 1 at night)

Week 9: PCT Assist 2 Caps 2x per day (two AM, two PM) Inhibit E 2 caps per day (1 in morning, 1 at night)

Week 10: PCT Assist 2 Caps 2x per day (two AM, two PM) Inhibit E 1 Cap prior to bedtime.


Or another Brand/Product stack that you would recommend?

[v1hyp]

looking for a good non-meth to stick in between two meht for my next cycle. Right now I have p-plex and M-drol want to stick something in between these two. Any thoughts anyone?

[J2jud]

I was thinking about using H-Drol...

I am a Male 33yrs old, 257lbs, 5'-11", decently strong, bit flabby for my taste, used to lift a ton of weight (power lift style) until I had shoulder surgery, still can put up decent weight, but I just don't go heavy anymore, I go more for the pump, feel, tired of being strong and not looking appealing. I did do a couple of cycles of Andro back in the day (10 years or so ago) and it felt like I was superman when I was on it. To block estrogen I just used Chrysin...is that not choice anymore? Or was I just a moron? I would like not to be a moron anymore, thank you for your write-up btw. :)

Normally I take a B-Complex, E-Complex, Zinc-Complex, Lecithin (I do it for liver), Omega-3, Multi, Caffine (200mg first thing in morning), White Willow Bark. [Was thinking the Lecithin and anti-oxidants would support my liver enough not to have to take additional things you call for.] Beta-Alanine before and after workout, muscle milk throughout the day. Was going to re-introduce ECA back into my supplements, because I just found out that I can buy it...

Since many supplements love to use names that confuse I want to be clear in what I want to do:

Cycle
H-Drol by FastAction
Week 1-25mg (first two days) 50mg day 3-7
Week 2-50mg
Week 3-50mg
Week 4-50mg

PCT
Revive T by FastAction
1 tablet each day for 28 days

[you call for more things on PCT, does Revive T take care of all of this?]

Off
56 days.

Cycle seems to be a bit underdosed and short in length. I may suggest this:

Week1 - 50mg
week2 - 50mg
week3 - 75mg
week4 - 75mg
week5 - 75mg

PCT:
6-OXO (tapered)
PRIMAL MALE
Creatine
ALCAR

This should be enough for a good cycle and proper PCT.




jud can you tell me what you think about this m-drol first cycle plz

M-drol
Week 1 : 10 mg+4 caps liv 52
Week 2 : 20 mg+4 caps liv 52
Week 3 : 20 mg or 30 mg+caps liv 52

PCT : clomid 100-50-50

Cycle looks fine. Be carefull with the dosages as you start to notice an increase in sides around 30mg.

I wouldn't dose clomid that high. 75/50/50...25mg (if needed)


Jud,

I was thinking of taking the following cycle:

Week 1: H-Drol 2 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 2: H-Drol 2 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 3: H-Drol 2 caps per day; E-Stane 3 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 4: H-Drol 2 caps per day; E-Stane 3 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 5: E-Stane 3 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 6: E-Stane 3 caps per day; Cycle Assist 4 caps twice per day

Week 7: PCT Assist 2 Caps 2x per day (two AM, two PM) Inhibit E 3 caps per day (1 in morning, 2 at night).

Week 8: PCT Assist 2 Caps 2x per day (two AM, two PM) Inhibit E 2 caps per day (1 in morning, 1 at night)

Week 9: PCT Assist 2 Caps 2x per day (two AM, two PM) Inhibit E 2 caps per day (1 in morning, 1 at night)

Week 10: PCT Assist 2 Caps 2x per day (two AM, two PM) Inhibit E 1 Cap prior to bedtime.


Or another Brand/Product stack that you would recommend?

I say leave out the Epi compound and finish with Halo with 6 weeks. Replace those last two weeks of EPI with 75mg of halo. Two weeks of EPI isn't going to do much for you in terms of added benefit. I see more benefit with sticking with longer acting Halo.

PCT looks good.


looking for a good non-meth to stick in between two meht for my next cycle. Right now I have p-plex and M-drol want to stick something in between these two. Any thoughts anyone?

Going with something like Straight 11-TEST would be a great option. It's faster acting than BOLD and will notice a leaning effec if dosed properly. The best range of dosages on a daily per miligram is around 500-600mg. Another compound that might be worth a try is 3-AD. But If I were you I'd opt for the 11-OXO clone.

[Mass Construction]

Cycle looks fine. Be carefull with the dosages as you start to notice an increase in sides around 30mg.

I wouldn't dose clomid that high. 75/50/50...25mg (if needed)

thx,
will stay on 10-20-20then, and clomid 75/50/50.

[newbie]

6-oxo seems to be sold out everywhere, seems like product rotation or something, can I swap Novedex-XT for it? I know you said that they were different classes of AI's but wasnt sure why you were calling out 6-oxo explicitly. Are any of the brands more potent/less potent then others? or are they all about the same? They are what they say they are...

[J2jud]

thx,
will stay on 10-20-20then, and clomid 75/50/50.

You're welcome ;)


6-oxo seems to be sold out everywhere, seems like product rotation or something, can I swap Novedex-XT for it? I know you said that they were different classes of AI's but wasnt sure why you were calling out 6-oxo explicitly. Are any of the brands more potent/less potent then others? or are they all about the same? They are what they say they are...

6-OXO is an entirely different AI than whats found as the main steroidal AI in Novedex-XT. N-XT contains ATD which I think is a very poor AI for PCT for many reasons. I usually suggest 6-OXO, 6-Bromo, or Formestane as opposed to anyone considering ATD as part of their PCT. There are some good brands out there with a very decently packed product. You usually can't go wrong with AIs being sold by companies as they're cheap and one can usually tell if they are working or not.

[TheJackHammer]

is Methyl 1-D by Legal Gear any good. right now im taking spawn and its working great but in the future i was thinking about taking this cause i can get a good deal on it and didnt know if it was any good

[J2jud]

is Methyl 1-D by Legal Gear any good. right now im taking spawn and its working great but in the future i was thinking about taking this cause i can get a good deal on it and didnt know if it was any good

It's supposedly methylated DHEA......... + some other stuff. I wouldn't use it unless I were over 35 and were'nt wanting to use designer steroids.

[TheJackHammer]

It's supposedly methylated DHEA......... + some other stuff. I wouldn't use it unless I were over 35 and were'nt wanting to use designer steroids.

alrighty thanks thats what i needed to know

[PA Viking]

Which of the ph/ds compounds aromatize?

[v1hyp]

Whats the full name or brand name for trend,, trying to look it up on BB.C to order

[TheJackHammer]

hey jud i just got my clomid and nolvadex for my pct and i was wondering what time of the day is the best to take them or does it even matter? also is it better to take them at the same time or different times?

[TheJackHammer]

also i was wondering if clomid and nolvadex were suppose to taste horrible? cause the one that i have tastes like the medicine that u never wanted to take as a kid and i still dont want to take it as an adult. lol

[Steve56]

J2Jud

Check your Pm's bro I tried sending you one earlier I'm not sure if it went through!

Thanks bro

[J2jud]

Which of the ph/ds compounds aromatize?

Most of the designers available today are non-aromatizing. The only designers and prohormones that come to mind that could aromatize are: 4-AD (original), MAX LMG, amd propadrol come to mind.


Whats the full name or brand name for trend,, trying to look it up on BB.C to order

"Tren"?


hey jud i just got my clomid and nolvadex for my pct and i was wondering what time of the day is the best to take them or does it even matter? also is it better to take them at the same time or different times?

Take them at the same time. I've always either recommended using in the morning=afternoon and then late at night.


also i was wondering if clomid and nolvadex were suppose to taste horrible? cause the one that i have tastes like the medicine that u never wanted to take as a kid and i still dont want to take it as an adult. lol

It's supposed to taste like ass, there's a chemical compound in there. It's ok.


J2Jud

Check your Pm's bro I tried sending you one earlier I'm not sure if it went through!

Thanks bro

Will look.

[Womanthrower]

Why don't you recommend ATD for PCT?

[Diabetic Muscle]

I am wrapping up a cycle of Tren extreme. Good results but a little pricey. I was wondering what would be good for my next cycle? I have run the LG stack compounds: M-1d & Liquid masterdrol (Personal trainer at the time recommended it) and then this 6 week of just tren extreme.

[LAGear]

Great thread. I have a question about PCT for h-drol. Running 5 weeks 50/50/75/75/75.

Since h-drol aromatizes do I need to use an AI if I have Torem?

First post says that for mild compounds you can use an AI instead of a SERM. Does that apply to h-drol since it doesn't aromatize?

Also, does h-drol require anti-cortisol?

Thanks!

[JustLuke]

6-OXO is an entirely different AI than whats found as the main steroidal AI in Novedex-XT. N-XT contains ATD which I think is a very poor AI for PCT for many reasons. I usually suggest 6-OXO, 6-Bromo, or Formestane as opposed to anyone considering ATD as part of their PCT. There are some good brands out there with a very decently packed product. You usually can't go wrong with AIs being sold by companies as they're cheap and one can usually tell if they are working or not.


I think that 6-oxo is the best AI on the OTC market currently, how ever I believe ATD is superior to 6-bromo. I like the fact that ATD is a suicide inhibitor for aromatase. I believe 6-bromo binds weakly to aromatase and can unbind and let aromatase go back to converting test to estrogen. I have seen people that have never used hormonal products and wanted to use something like an AI to boost testosterone get "ichy nipples" from 6-bromo. the down side to ATD is that it can compete with androgens for receptor sites, but I still believe that to be better than higher estrogen conversion.

[cal62887]

Yo, Jud!!


What the fawk are you doing over here?! :p

[J2jud]

Yo, Jud!!


What the fawk are you doing over here?! :p

:wavey:

Ya know, just shootin tha shit.

[hulkish808]

Jud, I took your recommendations in a Straight 11 Test, and Straight Epi for a cutting cycle...how many pills of each should I be taking a day?

[killercuda426]

hello j2jud

hows it going i was thinking of getting my feet wet with bold its my frist time .But i seen on the side effects there could be some blood clotting .I take a babby asprin in the moring every day.I have something called lupus anti coagulant which means my blood can clott quickly. for the side effcts that you listed is it for some one who has a problem with not clotting or for some one like me and i should maybe stay away thanks bob

[juggernaut]

how long should I wait after a 4 week mdrol + pct (nolva/adex) cycle has been completed to restart; what with androgen receptors and getting the vitals back to normal. I think I am under the guise of time on/time off. Correct?

[IronCrusher]

how long should I wait after a 4 week mdrol + pct (nolva/adex) cycle has been completed to restart; what with androgen receptors and getting the vitals back to normal. I think I am under the guise of time on/time off. Correct?


Yes sir.

A 4 weeks + PCT (of 4 weeks) means taking 8 weeks AFTER PCT is done to start again.

[juggernaut]

ok thanks

[killercuda426]

hello j2jud

hows it going i was thinking of getting my feet wet with bold its my frist time .But i seen on the side effects there could be some blood clotting .I take a babby asprin in the moring every day.I have something called lupus anti coagulant which means my blood can clott quickly. for the side effcts that you listed is it for some one who has a problem with not clotting or for some one like me and i should maybe stay away thanks bob

[Dr.Natural1988]

What would you consider a good prohormone that is non-methylated for bulking? Also, what is you opinion on 3-AD by anabolic xtereme?

[Dr.Natural1988]

Sorry one more question, what are the negative factors to non-methylated prohormones in terms of side effects?

Thanks

[IronFlex]

What would you consider a good prohormone that is non-methylated for bulking? Also, what is you opinion on 3-AD by anabolic xtereme?
Bold would be a good non methyl PH, it takes a bit to kick in but you should be able to pack on some good lean mass.

[IronFlex]

Sorry one more question, what are the negative factors to non-methylated prohormones in terms of side effects?

Thanks
There are much less sides to a non methylated PH than a methylated one. A non methyl needs to be run at a higher dosages but the sides are a lot less except with a product like tren.

[JustLuke]

Bold would be a good non methyl PH, it takes a bit to kick in but you should be able to pack on some good lean mass.
the problem with bold is that its so under dosed and you have to run it for a longer time. the cost is too high in my opinion.

[IronFlex]

the problem with bold is that its so under dosed and you have to run it for a longer time. the cost is too high in my opinion.
I completely agree. You basically have to run it at 800mg ed for like 8-12 weeks to get the full effect. realistically running something thats a 19nor tren would be better for 4 weeks.

[juggernaut]

CEL H-Drol or Primordial topical Tren-1 might be useful.

[IronFlex]

Hdrol is methylated but i have heard that Tren-1 is good to go.

[Dr.Natural1988]

Awesome thanks guys. Ya the Bold stuff is a little out of my price range considering how much you have to take. any opinions on 11-test? i dont necessarily know the correct doseto take, but it seems more with in my price range. thanks for the help guys

[IronFlex]

never heard of 11-test....what product are you talking about? are you asking about 1-test?

[Dr.Natural1988]

its from black china labs... the ingredient in it is adrenosterone

[Dr.Natural1988]

One more question again (sorry i dont know much about this stuff yet) what would be needed as pct for bold?

Thank you guys again

[IronFlex]

thats basically the same as 11oxo, needs to be ran at a higher dosage.

[IronFlex]

One more question again (sorry i dont know much about this stuff yet) what would be needed as pct for bold?

Thank you guys again
some novadex xt would suffice for bold, its not so potent that a serm would be neccessary.

[Dr.Natural1988]

Thank you again, just to clarify something...you wouldnt need a liver cleanse since bold is not methylated correct? And would you consider the gains more or less perminent since it works at a slower rate?

[IronFlex]

Gains would be more perminet since it would be slower going. Not so dramatic gains are easier to maintain and keep. Yes you also wouldnt need a liver support since its not methylated.

[Dr.Natural1988]

Thank you i appreciate all the help

[Dr.Natural1988]

http://www.tfsupplements.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1394

This stuff claims to be the same as Bold 200 by iforce...but is waaaay cheaper. Scam?

[Built]

Are there any prohormones that might be okay for women to use? I was looking for one of the 19-nors, but the ones that out seem to be tren precursors.

[IronFlex]

most the 19nors out there are tren precursors.

[JustLuke]

Are there any prohormones that might be okay for women to use? I was looking for one of the 19-nors, but the ones that out seem to be tren precursors.
19-nor is pretty androgenic, not a good one for women. The only one I can think of that might be light enough for a female is 1,4,ad(bold). I know women that have run a lower dose of equipoise and had good results with low side effects. This is purely speculation, it just stands to reason for me that if Bold is a precursor to injectable EQ then it might be an option.

[Built]

Cool, thanks.

Any idea on the dosing the women you knew of ran for the EQ?

[s2h]

with women stay with anavar and primibolan,EQ is bad news for females even in small doses if you want to maintain a femine look!

[Built]

Right, and thank you for that, but this is a thread about prohormones, which is why I was asking.

[juggernaut]

jud can you tell me what you think about this m-drol first cycle plz

M-drol
Week 1 : 10 mg+4 caps liv 52
Week 2 : 20 mg+4 caps liv 52
Week 3 : 20 mg or 30 mg+caps liv 52

PCT : clomid 100-50-50 stay with 20 on the third week. Prolactin gyno hit me when I raised the bar to 30. It's great stuff, but the back pumps were a bitch. Also, you might want to run a low dose of arimidex at .5 mg throughout the cycle duration + pct.

[juggernaut]

I'm considering doing Primordials topical 1t-tren for gains in muscle. Anything to stack along with that to make it more effective? Or would you go another route? Since the mdrol and the prolactin gyno, I wan to steer clear of that type of PH.

[IronFlex]

the tren is what could give you prolactin if its in fact a 19nor. mdrol wont give you prolactin just possibly gyno and bad back pumps.

[juggernaut]

Think it would help if I run a low dose of adex next time to prevent (any) gyno?

[IronFlex]

adex would be good for prolactin but if its not prolactin then nolva for sure. but yes runnind low dosages of adex or caber would help prevent prolactin gyno.

[Conversion]

Garlic does work wonders for blood pressure. Hawthorne berry and Garlic combination actually contends as a natural bp regulator.

[wolverine565]

I just got The One by applied nutracuticals. It is supose to be a DHT based. I took it for 3 weeks and put on 10lbs. I didn't have any hair loss or no prostate problems. They only problem I had was that I was overheating alot. My question is, what are the down sides to dht based supps? Why don't more people use dht?

[JustLuke]

I just got The One by applied nutracuticals. It is supose to be a DHT based. I took it for 3 weeks and put on 10lbs. I didn't have any hair loss or no prostate problems. They only problem I had was that I was overheating alot. My question is, what are the down sides to dht based supps? Why don't more people use dht?

I think the one is similar to a phera plex. most of the Ph's on the market are DHT. superdrol, phera, epi, halodrol, prostanozol...

[powrowse]

Hi, im going to try a PH for the first time, been looking around and researching for a while now and decided to go with CEL x-tren, was going to run it for 4 weeks and now not so sure what to do for PCT, i was thinking about Nolvadex, would this be ok or would ATD be fine? thanks :dunno:

[juggernaut]

Hi, im going to try a PH for the first time, been looking around and researching for a while now and decided to go with CEL x-tren, was going to run it for 4 weeks and now not so sure what to do for PCT, i was thinking about Nolvadex, would this be ok or would ATD be fine? thanks :dunno:
First time? Whats your age?

[powrowse]

First time? Whats your age?
23, would ATD be the way to go or should i use nolva, or somthing else? anyother tips?

[juggernaut]

If thus is your first time, MDrol would be a solid choice. Less sides. should also have liver support.

Don't know about atd. Got a link?

[juggernaut]

Sorry meant to type HDrol-TOTALLY different and mdrol is not recommended for a newb

[powrowse]

Sorry meant to type HDrol-TOTALLY different and mdrol is not recommended for a newb
Im going with x-tren because its no estro convert, i just need to know what to take for PCT because everywere i look i cant find a solid answer :hypno:

EDIT: not so sure i want to start with superdrol

[juggernaut]

Possibly because you don't want to answer questions. I asked you if this is your first PH?

[Con]

Hi Jud.
Are there any pro hormones that you could take during a period of time off AAS that would not inhibit natural hormone production and would be kind on lipid/blood work?
Basically is there a magic pill i can take to stay anabolic with no side effects while being "clean" lol.

Oh i posted this in the wrong thread sorry about that!

[HammerStrength12]

Hi Jud.
Are there any pro hormones that you could take during a period of time off AAS that would not inhibit natural hormone production and would be kind on lipid/blood work?
Basically is there a magic pill i can take to stay anabolic with no side effects while being "clean" lol.

Oh i posted this in the wrong thread sorry about that!

None of them will have zero impact on the hpta, but the easiest on it are generally furazadrol and 11-oxo. That's basically it. Everything else I can think of will significantly shut you down.

[J2jud]

Hi Jud.
Are there any pro hormones that you could take during a period of time off AAS that would not inhibit natural hormone production and would be kind on lipid/blood work?
Basically is there a magic pill i can take to stay anabolic with no side effects while being "clean" lol.

Oh i posted this in the wrong thread sorry about that!

Without too much detail, pro-hormones are essentially "AAS" that require activation via enzymatic processes. In short, there's really nothing available that will provide substantial gains with minimal effect on the HPTA. DHEA is a pro-hormone, but it's not quite the ideal ph we'd want to be looking at to make those slightly above average gains.

However, I have been recommending some of the guys I help train to use a cocktail of supps that I would consider quite effective for those who don't use gear and those, like yourself, are looking for a mild boost.

D-Aspartic Acid - 4-6g
DHEA - 75-100mg
7- Keto DHEA - 100mg
L-Carnitine L-tartrate- 500mg-1g
Indole-3-Carbinole(light AI) - 400mg
Chrysin (light AI) - 400mg

Add that to your pre-workout drink and you might notice some drive and intensity. Some of the guys I have running this are reporting some very nice strength gains along with libido and pumps. It's not going to be comparable to a cycle of AAS. Though, it might help you add some intensity and strength gains.

[apex23]

Jud,

I really enjoy your post. I was curious as to why you recommend 7-keto DHEA, since is non-hormonal?

[apex23]

without too much detail, pro-hormones are essentially "aas" that require activation via enzymatic processes. In short, there's really nothing available that will provide substantial gains with minimal effect on the hpta. Dhea is a pro-hormone, but it's not quite the ideal ph we'd want to be looking at to make those slightly above average gains.

However, i have been recommending some of the guys i help train to use a cocktail of supps that i would consider quite effective for those who don't use gear and those, like yourself, are looking for a mild boost.

D-aspartic acid - 4-6g
dhea - 75-100mg
7- keto dhea - 100mg
l-carnitine l-tartrate- 500mg-1g
indole-3-carbinole(light ai) - 400mg
chrysin (light ai) - 400mg

add that to your pre-workout drink and you might notice some drive and intensity. Some of the guys i have running this are reporting some very nice strength gains along with libido and pumps. It's not going to be comparable to a cycle of aas. Though, it might help you add some intensity and strength gains.

bump

[J2jud]

Jud,

I really enjoy your post. I was curious as to why you recommend 7-keto DHEA, since is non-hormonal?

Hello Apex,

Thank you. I'm glad you've found the above post of some use. '7-Keto DHEA' has been used for quite some time for a few reasons. One reason that I include the supplement into that specific stack is due to it's ability to increase resting metabolic rate by supporting thyroid hormone(s)/function and decreasing cortisol levels to some degree. There may also be some evidence to suggest 7-Keto DHEA may increase insulin sensitivity. To what degree, I'm not quite sure. However, I have seen some significant improvements in body composition when added to supplement ones diet without making changes to the diet and or exercise program.

[apex23]

I have always used 200mg or more of 7-keto...I have read it has a poor bioavailability..not sure how true this may be. How much do you normally use while dieting?

By the way, I plan on using Custom Capsules to create more own formula. Thanks for the info...

[J2jud]

I have always used 200mg or more of 7-keto...I have read it has a poor bioavailability..not sure how true this may be. How much do you normally use while dieting?

By the way, I plan on using Custom Capsules to create more own formula. Thanks for the info...

It's bioavailability isn't that poor, but it's not amazing by any means. I've seen guys use up to 1400-2000mg for a period of 6-8 weeks. I used roughly 700mg-1000mg when I was dieting.

[kindom-muscle]

J2JUD : THINKING OF RUNNING HAVOC CYCLE,IM A NEWBIE TO PH/DS, CAUSE ITS MY FIRST TIME DO YA THINK 10MG PER DAY FOR FIRST WEEK,20 FOLLOWING 2 WEEKS AND 30 LAST WEEK,or should i just do 20/20/20/20. thinkin of test charge as pct,the company i get my supps off told me this is would be perfect,no need for a serm but i would like your opinion on this seen as u know ur stuff.

[kindom-muscle]

or maybe dianabol/nolvadex . dbol :20/20/30/30 nolvadex: 10/15/15/10

[darrell67]

great informative info bro..thanks