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TPT
03-18-2009, 06:57 PM
recently, chris aceto suggested that increased cortisol might aid in decreases in body fat. sounds counterintuitive right? what do others think about this? below are some of the commentary from his personal thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Aceto http://forums.rxmuscle.com/images/okay/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?p=108243#post108243)
Thanks; I hope to be writing some good stuff here and likely in Muscle Mag in the near future. Ok Cortisol. My view; its got a bum rap. It's a fat burner. Elevated cortisol levels allow for the maximum effect of both growth hormone and adrenaline. GH and adrenaline stimulate the body to break down body fat. If cortisol levels are elevated; you breakdown more fat then if they are not elevated. Cortisol also stimulates fat cell breakdown independent of GH and adrenaline levels. In other words, even if your body did not spike up asdrenaline levels or GH levels, cortisol can potentially tear down fat cells. What else? Cortisol stimulates ketone formation in the liver and ketones are STRONGLY anti-catabolic. They protect the muscles against muscle tissue breakdown. So; you could expect that elevated cortisol levels will make adrenaline and GH work better and kick up the production of ketones which will save muscle tissue. Wont find that in FLEX; until someone copies it :). Now my blazen plug; (hope its ok John R) I have my own product that is , at its core, a stimulant. It's called Nordrenalean HSL and it increases adrenaline which, in turn targets fat cells to be broken down as fuel. By the way, the best results I think I saw with stimulant based fat loss products was the real Fastin (which is no longer available by a presciption) also known as phentermine. I saw folks (not bodybuilders) lose huge amounts of weight and body fat with it back in the late 1980's.

Originally Posted by ThePhysicalTherapist http://forums.rxmuscle.com/images/okay/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?p=108454#post108454)
i see. you might be referring to out fight or flight response. in the presense of an aversive conditon (i.e., stressful situation) corticotropin-releasing hormone signals our autonomic nervous system to "get ready to fight." appetite and our digestive system are depressed. as you suggested cortisol and adrenalin are released to mobilize carbs and fat as an energy source. (light bulb! lol) hence, reductions in body fat?!

but chris, that is the initial cascade of fight or flight. how does one maintain these elevated adrenaline and cortisol levels once "stress" discipates? how could we counter the chronic longer term effects of "stress induced" cortisol and body fat?

thank you. look forward to more of nordrenalean hsl and the ingredient profile.
Well thats where the diet is important; If you go high carbs, for most people, that will shut down the productive effects of the fight of flight fat burning hormones. I guess the answer; its in the diet. However, to reiterate, from a fundamental view; cortisol is part of the fat burning mix
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Dr Pangloss
03-18-2009, 08:04 PM
He can hand-waive all he wants. it just doesnt jive with the data.

gman
03-18-2009, 10:51 PM
it doesn't jibe, either.

BigJD69
03-19-2009, 05:22 PM
The hormone cortisol is produced in the adrenal cortex in response to adrenal cortical stimulating hormone (ACTH) produced in the pituitary gland. Cortisol plays an important role in regulating blood sugar, energy production, inflammation, the immune system and healing. If you have too little cortisol, you may suffer from fatigue, chronic fatigue, exhaustion and a disease of the endocrine system called Addison's disease. If your adrenal glands are producing too much cortisol, you may develop conditions such as weight gain, especially around the abdomen, depressed immune function with all of the consequences, accelerated aging and stomach ulcers.
Recently, a lot of attention has been directed to the effects of excess cortisol on weight gain and on the difficulty in losing weight. Collectively, the various diet plans being promoted by a long list of diet gurus have a failure rate of approximately 93 to 97 percent. There are several reasons for this. One is clearly the difficulty in achieving behavioral modification in the face of easy availability of the wrong kind of foods, inherently sedentary lifestyles, and intense media programming. Another reason is that our hormones work against us, in the weight loss perspective. High cortisol levels is one of the culprits.

TPT
03-19-2009, 06:58 PM
The hormone cortisol is produced in the adrenal cortex in response to adrenal cortical stimulating hormone (ACTH) produced in the pituitary gland. Cortisol plays an important role in regulating blood sugar, energy production, inflammation, the immune system and healing. If you have too little cortisol, you may suffer from fatigue, chronic fatigue, exhaustion and a disease of the endocrine system called Addison's disease. If your adrenal glands are producing too much cortisol, you may develop conditions such as weight gain, especially around the abdomen, depressed immune function with all of the consequences, accelerated aging and stomach ulcers.
Recently, a lot of attention has been directed to the effects of excess cortisol on weight gain and on the difficulty in losing weight. Collectively, the various diet plans being promoted by a long list of diet gurus have a failure rate of approximately 93 to 97 percent. There are several reasons for this. One is clearly the difficulty in achieving behavioral modification in the face of easy availability of the wrong kind of foods, inherently sedentary lifestyles, and intense media programming. Another reason is that our hormones work against us, in the weight loss perspective. High cortisol levels is one of the culprits.




and what exactly is your point? i'd warn you to be careful when cutting and pasting from sites without providing a reference. though many do it all the time, it typically devalues what you are trying to express.

TPT
03-19-2009, 07:02 PM
He can hand-waive all he wants. it just doesnt jive with the data.


please elaborate your thoughts.

Curt James
03-19-2009, 07:23 PM
All I know (but don't really know) is that cortisol was indicted related to fat gain associated with beer drinking.

I turned 45 and stopped drinking to keep my cortisol level, uh, level. And to banish the beer gut.

Aceto had success with Jay Cutler and ex-wife Laura Creavalle, right?

Dunno about his cortisol commentary, but always interested in learning new things related to physique improvement.

Thanks for creating this thread, PT.

Dr Pangloss
03-19-2009, 07:56 PM
please elaborate your thoughts.


well, first of all he provides zero facts. Only reasoning. everything on cort says its catabolic, and yet he reasons that cort-stimulated ketogenesis in the liver somehow changes that? Please, show me some fucking evidence.

i did not even look into the fat-burning stuff because his first argument about cort not being catabolic falls in the face of overwhelming evidence.

gman
03-19-2009, 08:24 PM
I have low normal am blood levels of cortisol, and plenty of midsection body fat.

I always heard high cortisol helped cause that (along with eating too much), so I seem to fit the o/p better.

Dr Pangloss
03-19-2009, 08:36 PM
Again, i did not check the validity of elevated cort in fat burning. I will probably look into it, but the assertion that elevated cort is good falls in the face of overwhelming evidence that its catabolic.

TPT
03-19-2009, 08:45 PM
All I know (but don't really know) is that cortisol was indicted related to fat gain associated with beer drinking.

I turned 45 and stopped drinking to keep my cortisol level, uh, level. And to banish the beer gut.

Aceto had success with Jay Cutler and ex-wife Laura Creavalle, right?

Dunno about his cortisol commentary, but always interested in learning new things related to physique improvement.

Thanks for creating this thread, PT.


curt, thank you. so it's the increased cortisol and not all the empty calories from alcohol that causes beer bellies? we would never want that sort of "distended abdomen" either. lol.

TPT
03-19-2009, 08:47 PM
I have low normal am blood levels of cortisol, and plenty of midsection body fat.

I always heard high cortisol helped cause that (along with eating too much), so I seem to fit the o/p better.


gman, yes this is quite counterintuitive. thus, the exploration is interesting.

TPT
03-19-2009, 08:59 PM
Again, i did not check the validity of elevated cort in fat burning. I will probably look into it, but the assertion that elevated cort is good falls in the face of overwhelming evidence that its catabolic.



i am not sure if the question should be whether cortisol is anabolic or catabolic. in body fat reduction, we would want some catabolic effects right? of course the preference would be the breaking down of fat and not muscle tissure.

as i mentioned to aceto, cortisol levels should rise in response to fight or flight situations. thus, energy sources must be utilized from somewhere. however, the elevated cortisol is not chronic in this situation and likely could not be sustained.

Dr Pangloss
03-19-2009, 09:07 PM
i am not sure if the question should be whether cortisol is anabolic or catabolic. in body fat reduction, we would want some catabolic effects right? of course the preference would be the breaking down of fat and not muscle tissure.

as i mentioned to aceto, cortisol levels should rise in response to fight or flight situations. thus, energy sources must be utilized from somewhere. however, the elevated cortisol is not chronic in this situation and likely could not be sustained.


perhaps i misunderstood, but what i thought he was suggesting was that, while being fat-burning, cort would also be muscle sparing (by producing anti-catabolic ketone bodies), albeit with transient elevations...

I request that he produce one paper that suggests or says that transient cort elevation is muscle-sparing.

forgive me, i dont suffer reasoning well without direct support...:)

Curt James
03-19-2009, 09:16 PM
curt, thank you. so it's the increased cortisol and not all the empty calories from alcohol that causes beer bellies? we would never want that sort of "distended abdomen" either. lol.

heh :p

Yes, I'm sure the empty calories contribute big time, however... somethingsomething.

What, I'm a food scientist?

http://www.google.com/search?q=cortisol%2C+alcohol%2C+fat


One of those chemicals, cortisol, or stress hormone, is a powerful appetite trigger. And guess what we crave for when we are stressed? Candy, ice cream, cookies, potato chips, etc. These foods provide carbohydrates and fat to replenish the calories used when we respond to stress. But when the same thing happens day after day, it becomes toxic and we gain weight," writes Dr Pamela Peeke in her best seller Fight Fat After Forty.


Dr Nalin Nag, Consultant in Internal Medicine, Inderprastha Apollo Hospital, New Delhi, agrees with Dr Peeke. "Cortisol causes your liver to make excess sugar that your body doesn't really need. As a result, you begin to feel hungrier and begin to eat more," he says. And what's worse is, as Dr Peeke found, the extra calories consumed by the cortisol appetite trigger are converted to fat deposits that gravitate to one area of the bodyŚthe waistline. To avoid gaining toxic pounds, she advises we keep cortisol below the appetite-stimulating threshold in our bodies. "And this is best done by learning to keep stress at low levels in our lives," adds Dr Nag.


Apart from the calorie-fest, drinking too much also reduces the number of fat calories you burn; plus it also increases your appetite. Here too, the culprit is the sameŚcortisol. Alcohol also tends to raise cortisol levels, sending fat to your belly.

From: http://www.intoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9944&sectionid=3&secid=15&Itemid=

Military Might
03-19-2009, 11:16 PM
There is actual evidence out there that reflect Cortisol stimulating fatty acid mobilization. It may also play a minor role in lipolysis. Sooooo, Basically, maybe our man Chris was right that cortisol helps in the formation of ketones and since ketones are anti-catabolic, IMO they will save more muscle tissue than cortisol will ever break down. Ponder that...

Dr Pangloss
03-20-2009, 08:59 AM
There is actual evidence out there that reflect Cortisol stimulating fatty acid mobilization. It may also play a minor role in lipolysis. Sooooo, Basically, maybe our man Chris was right that cortisol helps in the formation of ketones and since ketones are anti-catabolic, IMO they will save more muscle tissue than cortisol will ever break down. Ponder that...


I don't have to ponder it. You've just restated what the OP said, and he provided no evidence.

provide some evidence, and i will ponder it.

BigJD69
03-20-2009, 11:03 AM
I saw my Endo. the other day. We spoke about my issues with high cholesterol, blood pressure, and my Type 2-Diabetes. We also discussed how hard a time I have loosing weight esp. around my mid-section. She had my do a 24hr. urine test, which is going to determine my cortisol levels. She said if my levels are too high, this could be the main reason I am having issues with all of the above mentioned. I am finishing the urine test today and when I get the results from all my tests will keep you posted!!

Frosty
03-20-2009, 05:18 PM
I have low normal am blood levels of cortisol, and plenty of midsection body fat.

I always heard high cortisol helped cause that (along with eating too much), so I seem to fit the o/p better.

gman, that's just one test. Was it a saliva test? What were your levels throughout the rest of the day? Just morning won't give you the whole picture, especially if you have elevated evening cortisol levels.

The "mid section" fat is associate with different hormones depending on the area. Love handle area is related to carb intake, while umbilical skinfold is related to cortisol but also insulin.

However, these skinfolds are only meaningful in relation to the tricep skinfold. If you have a "high" skinfold around the belly or lovehandles, but they're the same measurement as your tricep, then you're just fat! lol :)

Frosty
03-20-2009, 05:21 PM
I saw my Endo. the other day. We spoke about my issues with high cholesterol, blood pressure, and my Type 2-Diabetes. We also discussed how hard a time I have loosing weight esp. around my mid-section. She had my do a 24hr. urine test, which is going to determine my cortisol levels. She said if my levels are too high, this could be the main reason I am having issues with all of the above mentioned. I am finishing the urine test today and when I get the results from all my tests will keep you posted!!

I'd ask if you could get a saliva test that tests 4 different times during the day. This will give you an idea of your circadian rhythms of cortisol, not just total amount. Hell you could have "normal" total amounts but your circadian rhythms be back assward low in the morning and elevated at night. These tests are cheap and even if you paid totally out of pocket the 4 saliva test would run like $120-140.

Yolo
03-20-2009, 05:34 PM
This is a very interesting discussion:beerbang: and I think there might be some merit to what the op has posted. I'm not sure about the following though:


Dr Nalin Nag, Consultant in Internal Medicine, Inderprastha Apollo Hospital, New Delhi, agrees with Dr Peeke. "Cortisol causes your liver to make excess sugar that your body doesn't really need. As a result, you begin to feel hungrier and begin to eat more," he says.


First off, it's my understanding that the liver produces ketone bodies rather than sugar when cortisol is high. Furthermore, if the person were already ketogenic, this would be, basically, more of the same and thus maintain the status quo as far as nutrient partitioning in the blood.

Now if ketones are as muscle sparing as advertised (I've not seen anything to imply this but I confess I haven't spent much time researching it) then it would seem that the catabolic effects of cortisol will be targeted primarily at fat deposits.

As for the second part, I feel that for a disciplined individual feeling hungrier doesn't necessarily equal eating more.

Dr Pangloss
03-20-2009, 07:17 PM
i cant stand it anymore. someone post up the evidence that "ketone bodies" are anti-catabolic. in other words, anabolic.

tight booty
03-21-2009, 04:54 AM
Very interesting! I have always found that when I am stressed or worried about dropping bodyfat that my body tends to hold onto fat and I stop losing! When I am relaxed and not stressing about it, then it just falls off! This was the case when I competed....if I was freaking out that it wasn't coming off fast enough, then sure enough it wouldn't. Once I said "fuck it, I am doing everything I can" then it would fall off incredibly fast.

MikeS
03-21-2009, 06:30 PM
All the human physiology books I've read say that Cortisol does burn fat. However it also causes protein degradation (amoung other things) so you wont be building any muscle and will probably lose some.

Dr Pangloss
03-21-2009, 06:56 PM
All the human physiology books I've read say that Cortisol does burn fat. However it also causes protein degradation (amoung other things) so you wont be building any muscle and will probably lose some.


this is my point. Everything under the sun says its catabolic to muscle.

Frosty
03-22-2009, 01:48 AM
Very interesting! I have always found that when I am stressed or worried about dropping bodyfat that my body tends to hold onto fat and I stop losing! When I am relaxed and not stressing about it, then it just falls off! This was the case when I competed....if I was freaking out that it wasn't coming off fast enough, then sure enough it wouldn't. Once I said "fuck it, I am doing everything I can" then it would fall off incredibly fast.

I know this can be the case. Same goes with gaining muscle. Guys that are "hardgainers" that are always worried about gaining any muscle and are always talking about it MAKE themselves "hardgainers" often. Same with people worrying about losing fat, IMO. Carefree and happy is the way to get any of it done best.

Curt James
03-22-2009, 02:21 AM
this is my point. Everything under the sun says its catabolic to muscle.

Unfortunately, it seems I am catabolic to muscle. :p

:(

TPT
03-22-2009, 11:58 AM
Unfortunately, it seems I am catabolic to muscle. :p

:(



lol. curt, i bet you really aren't.

MikeS
03-22-2009, 06:10 PM
On the subject of Cortisol...I read one study that suggested 1g Vit C + 400iu vit E was good for controlling cortisol but I cannot find any other studies. Anyone got any info?

tight booty
03-22-2009, 07:29 PM
I think vitamin B would be really good for helping control cortisol, since it helps with the nervous system.

Dr Pangloss
03-22-2009, 07:40 PM
i can't believe you posted that in the "bodybuilding science," section...

SonOfPluto
03-23-2009, 02:03 AM
Years ago, when I was in college, I was an ephedrine/caffeine junkie. My body was constantly in a stimulated, somewhat agitated state, and I'm positive that my cortisol levels were sky high much of the time. I found that in that state, I quickly added fat to my stomach region, especially the sides or 'love handle' areas. I think Aceto is just spewing out nonsense in order to push his product.

TPT
03-24-2009, 09:56 PM
so what of otc products to reduce cortisol? what of the utility of phosphatidylserine and are there any significant effects on cortisol thus, fat reduction? and yes i've read the studies. so some anecdote will be acceptable as well. lol

Frosty
03-24-2009, 11:47 PM
so what of otc products to reduce cortisol? what of the utility of phosphatidylserine and are there any significant effects on cortisol thus, fat reduction? and yes i've read the studies. so some anecdote will be acceptable as well. lol

I know Charles Poliquin uses it to reduce the umbilical skin fold measurement in his Biosignature Modulation program.

Dr. Joel Nathan
03-25-2009, 01:30 AM
As a New Yorkers, we all have high cortisol's (almost). I want to keep mine down to decrease truncal fat and to decrease muscle catabolism.

To decrease cortisol, consider massage, yoga or acupuncture.

There's a yoga studio and a Starbucks on most corners here in NYC!

Joel

Frosty
03-25-2009, 02:10 AM
As a New Yorkers, we all have high cortisol's (almost). I want to keep mine down to decrease truncal fat and to decrease muscle catabolism.

To decrease cortisol, consider massage, yoga or acupuncture.

There's a yoga studio and a Starbucks on most corners here in NYC!

Joel


One sinister side effect of lots of stress is reduced stomach acid production....which is terrible from a bodybuilding perspective.

Dr. Joel Nathan
03-25-2009, 08:59 AM
Speaking as a medical doctor, lower cortisol levels are healthier for the body. Increased cortisol levels will increase truncal body fat which will hide your muscle and will increase chances of heart attack.

However, if you still want to raise the level of cortisol consider the following. Licorice extract, which contains glycyrrhizin, raises adrenal hormone levels. It's the black licorice that has this effect.

Joel

TPT
03-25-2009, 10:41 AM
I know Charles Poliquin uses it to reduce the umbilical skin fold measurement in his Biosignature Modulation program.



thank you. i will look into the correlations between umbilical skin fold measures and cortisol. i'm always suspicious on whether cortisol is the controlling variable to abdomeninal fat deposit or other variables we're not discriminating.

Frosty
03-25-2009, 10:59 AM
Poliquin has collected enough data on his own to come up with his Biosignature Modulation. Apparently it's solid enough that he teaches it to medical doctors.

TPT
03-25-2009, 11:01 AM
As a New Yorkers, we all have high cortisol's (almost). I want to keep mine down to decrease truncal fat and to decrease muscle catabolism.

To decrease cortisol, consider massage, yoga or acupuncture.

There's a yoga studio and a Starbucks on most corners here in NYC!

Joel


lol. oh yes of course. i should know. but, did you mean elevated "stress" or elevated cortisol? they may not be functionally synomynous. your premise seems to be that massage, yoga, accupuncture are "relaxing" activities. thus, reduce "stress" and then cortisol. i'll look for some studies to support the notion. i do remember some stuff on ginko biloba and cortisol.

btw, recently yoga has been quite aversive for me! lol.

TPT
03-25-2009, 11:04 AM
One sinister side effect of lots of stress is reduced stomach acid production....which is terrible from a bodybuilding perspective.


please elaborate on stomach acid production.

Frosty
03-25-2009, 12:03 PM
I don't know the mechanisms that happens between high stress and the end result of reduced stomach acid. I'm just guessing that it has to do with stress hormones shutting down the digestive system to a degree. Either way having low stomach acid is very bad for guys trying to eat lots of food to bulk up....protein is useless unless digested. It can lead to other nasty things like GERD and food sensitivities, and vitamin and mineral deficiencies (which can make the problem worse). Betaine HCl as a supplement is very useful to help this, and very high stress people might need it all the time.

Dr. Joel Nathan
03-26-2009, 01:57 PM
To my knowledge increased stress causes increased cortisol levels to handle the stress.

Yoga ain't easy, but it can be a stress reliever for some. One size does not fit all.

Joel




lol. oh yes of course. i should know. but, did you mean elevated "stress" or elevated cortisol? they may not be functionally synomynous. your premise seems to be that massage, yoga, accupuncture are "relaxing" activities. thus, reduce "stress" and then cortisol. i'll look for some studies to support the notion. i do remember some stuff on ginko biloba and cortisol.

btw, recently yoga has been quite aversive for me! lol.