cancelling of Pro shows

[MsGuns]

ladies,
have you written Betty or Jim Manion and voiced your concerns?
How do you get sponsors to cover your shows?
What does it take?

[~gymdiva~]

well Betty and Ed canceled two of those (the Europa shows) so I'm not sure she's the right person to be emailing even though she's the fbb rep :(


no clue about Jim...I'll let the pros weigh in on that one...

[mr.genetics]

Honestly, and I mean this without disrespect, but it's hard to get people to watch female bodybuilding. As great as I think it is, it's unnatural for most people (even bodybuilding fans) to watch. Women who are that muscular just don't appeal to the masses, and that's why sponsors won't put money out to pay for these shows. They don't benefit or make money from it. The market for most supplements are aimed at men, so why sponsor women's events? I am not on board with all of this, but I understand it, and from a business standpoint, until women look more like women, there won't be a market big enough to sustain it. All the best to you guys and all the respect in the world for all the women on here that are competing.

[~gymdiva~]

most of these shows getting axed were in conjunction with other pro events though...tampa bay I think maybe the exception? so I think they have two open shows now? that's ridiculous...hate to say it like this but all figure pro shows don't fill seats either...I think we need some all women shows with fbb/fitness/figure all in one night...that way you get the best of all worlds!

[MsGuns]

well Betty and Ed canceled two of those (the Europa shows) so I'm not sure she's the right person to be emailing even though she's the fbb rep :(


no clue about Jim...I'll let the pros weigh in on that one...

I only said Betty cause she's the rep and she can fwd it to JM.
Well Isabelle just called the office and spoke to JM and thanked him for her evite to the O.


Honestly, and I mean this without disrespect, but it's hard to get people to watch female bodybuilding. As great as I think it is, it's unnatural for most people (even bodybuilding fans) to watch. Women who are that muscular just don't appeal to the masses, and that's why sponsors won't put money out to pay for these shows. They don't benefit or make money from it. The market for most supplements are aimed at men, so why sponsor women's events? I am not on board with all of this, but I understand it, and from a business standpoint, until women look more like women, there won't be a market big enough to sustain it. All the best to you guys and all the respect in the world for all the women on here that are competing.

Thx Mr. Genetics thats what I was lookin for but wanted to hear it from the promoters or sponsors but I guess they can say that, huh?

I mean when a promoter puts on a show do the sponsors say I ONLY sponsoring the men and figure??/

[MsGuns]

most of these shows getting axed were in conjunction with other pro events though...tampa bay I think maybe the exception? so I think they have two open shows now? that's ridiculous...hate to say it like this but all figure pro shows don't fill seats either...I think we need some all women shows with fbb/fitness/figure all in one night...that way you get the best of all worlds!

i was talk to a Pro and we were wonderin why isnt it a package deal...
You sponsor all the WOMEN...
But I guess you cant tell the sponsors where to put there money.

[mr.genetics]

Honestly, I don't know if that will work. A lot of the attendance at the women's shows now, is from the men's show. I'm not saying that in a mean or bad way, but it's true. I think what women's body sports needs to do is market itself better. If people understood it more, I think they would accept it more.

[MsGuns]

Honestly, I don't know if that will work. A lot of the attendance at the women's shows now, is from the men's show. I'm not saying that in a mean or bad way, but it's true. I think what women's body sports needs to do is market itself better. If people understood it more, I think they would accept it more.

We were wondering that too...
MEN really come out to see MEN...wow
I thought MEN were attracted to WOMEN but I guess not women w/ more muscle than them, huh?

[mr.genetics]

Speaking from experience it's not like that at all. Women's bodybuilding doesn't have the same attraction as men's for most of us. The reason is because we are in the gym trying to attain what a lot of these guys have physically, and it's something you don't see all the time. The problem with figure is that there are too many fucking rounds. It gets boring. There are beautiful women everywhere and when you have to sit through seeing the same girls do 5 different rounds for 2 hours, the novelty wears off. Like I said before. There has to be more of a innovative approach to women's physique sports, or I'm afraid it might die.

[MsGuns]

Speaking from experience it's not like that at all. Women's bodybuilding doesn't have the same attraction as men's for most of us. The reason is because we are in the gym trying to attain what a lot of these guys have physically, and it's something you don't see all the time. The problem with figure is that there are too many fucking rounds. It gets boring. There are beautiful women everywhere and when you have to sit through seeing the same girls do 5 different rounds for 2 hours, the novelty wears off. Like I said before. There has to be more of a innovative approach to women's physique sports, or I'm afraid it might die.

Thx for your insight...
So are there women out there that wanna look like the top 5 from the Arnold?

[mr.genetics]

I don't know how many women want to look like a bodybuilder. Here's the thing; Men have an admiration for muscle. That's why when you are a little boy, you love super hero's. They are big, strong, and have powers. When men grow older, they want to look like that whether it is subconscious, or whatever. Men always want to be bigger or leaner than they are for the most part. Women want to be fit. They want to be shapely, but in shape. Women's bodybuilding is like a woman, with a man's mindset as far as muscularity. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but for the masses, it's not going to be understood. Do you kind of see what I am getting at?

[MsGuns]

I don't know how many women want to look like a bodybuilder. Here's the thing; Men have an admiration for muscle. That's why when you are a little boy, you love super hero's. They are big, strong, and have powers. When men grow older, they want to look like that whether it is subconscious, or whatever. Men always want to be bigger or leaner than they are for the most part. Women want to be fit. They want to be shapely, but in shape. Women's bodybuilding is like a woman, with a man's mindset as far as muscularity. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but for the masses, it's not going to be understood. Do you kind of see what I am getting at?

Yup
When I 1st started I told my trainer I didnt want to get BIG n BULKY...
I like how I looked (feminine w/ muscles) and when people ask me what I do- they think I still run track n then I tell them know Im a bodybuilder and they still look at me funny cause they are like WOW you dont look like the typical bodybuilder...

[Mufasa]

I asked this on the other thread, and is something I've been wondering about for a while:


One the earliest and largest supporters of FBB was Jan Tana.


What became of her "Jan Tana Classic"?

Was it the same set of issues? (i.e. sponsorship?)


Also...what is meant by an "open" show? (I'm guessing that its one where anyone can compete as opposed to one where one is invited?)



Mufasa
http://forums.rxmuscle.com/images/okay/statusicon/user_online.gif http://forums.rxmuscle.com/images/okay/buttons/report.gif (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/report.php?p=106817) http://forums.rxmuscle.com/images/okay/buttons/quote.gif (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=106817)

[mr.genetics]

Jan Tana was losing money on the event, and decided to cancel it.

[MsGuns]

I asked this on the other thread, and is something I've been wondering about for a while:


One the earliest and largest supporters of FBB was Jan Tana.

Also...what is meant by an "open" show? (I'm guessing that its one where


What became of her "Jan Tana Classic"?

Was it the same set of issues? (i.e. sponsorship?)
anyone can compete as opposed to one where one is invited?)



Mufasa
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I dont know...you would have to ask Jan Tana.
yes, open means the shows besides the Arnold and the O
There is only 2 this yr...was 4 but the Europa and now Tampa has been cancelled.

[Mufasa]

Jan Tana was losing money on the event, and decided to cancel it.


That's what I thought, but I just wasn't sure.

Thanks, G.



Mufasa

[mr.genetics]

No problem

[sassy69]

I don't know how many women want to look like a bodybuilder. Here's the thing; Men have an admiration for muscle. That's why when you are a little boy, you love super hero's. They are big, strong, and have powers. When men grow older, they want to look like that whether it is subconscious, or whatever. Men always want to be bigger or leaner than they are for the most part. Women want to be fit. They want to be shapely, but in shape. Women's bodybuilding is like a woman, with a man's mindset as far as muscularity. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but for the masses, it's not going to be understood. Do you kind of see what I am getting at?

So frustrating too... no one wants to look like a skeletal distance runner either, but plenty of people do it and are judged for their ability to perform as distance runners. Not very many people are interested in judging FBBs for the ability to perform as FBBs.

Even for guys who are "supposed" to want to be big & muscular, I bet a large subset of the male population would cut their goals short of BB when they realize competition involves prancing around on stage in a speedo & paint-on tan. But they are still judged for their ability to perform as BBs. FBBs don't get that same consideration because women are "supposed' to look fit and not muscular. Regardless of the whole point of this "sport" and being an "athlete".

Very frustrating.

[Mufasa]

So frustrating too... no one wants to look like a skeletal distance runner either, but plenty of people do it and are judged for their ability to perform as distance runners. Not very many people are interested in judging FBBs for the ability to perform as FBBs.

Even for guys who are "supposed" to want to be big & muscular, I bet a large subset of the male population would cut their goals short of BB when they realize competition involves prancing around on stage in a speedo & paint-on tan. But they are still judged for their ability to perform as BBs. FBBs don't get that same consideration because women are "supposed' to look fit and not muscular. Regardless of the whole point of this "sport" and being an "athlete".

Very frustrating.


Where does it go from here, Sassy?

(Maybe this is another thread entirely?)



Mufasa

[quadrablue]

ladies,
have you written Betty or Jim Manion and voiced your concerns?
How do you get sponsors to cover your shows?
What does it take?

Yes I have

[~gymdiva~]

get a response of any kind?

[quadrablue]

get a response of any kind?

Not yet. But I've heard that Betty got ill after the Arnold so maybe she's still not 100% yet. Eventually I will talk to her. I'm not letting it go lol And the reason I want to talk to her is not about the cancellation either, although I may ask about that as well.

[fitbody]

this whole thing is ludicris
are we back in the dark ages when women have to be told how they can and cannot look !!!!!!
has anyone ever watched the Olympics ????
it's amazing then to me if this is the attitude
how most of the womens sports there haven't been pulled at the Olympics
cuz alotta those women couldn't do a Figure show !!!
Sport is Sport
Down here on the front lines of the sport
there's more and more women getting into the sport all the time
I competed at Canadian Bodybuilding Nationals last year 2008
there was 13 masters in my class & 13 heavyweights
for every competitor their own friends & family support them
not to mention the female bodybuilding fans
i've been in this sport for over 25 yrs
and i get more people complimenting me than ever
more public acceptance to the sport
where years ago i've hear snide comments
nowadays i get compliments by men & women
As a full time personal trainer & coach
I'm training more female bodybuilders now that ever

[fitbody]

I think what should be looked at is how can the IFBB
bring back womens bodybuilding to it's former glory
the women are only doing what they have to do to WIN

[dvsness]

Speaking from experience it's not like that at all. Women's bodybuilding doesn't have the same attraction as men's for most of us. The reason is because we are in the gym trying to attain what a lot of these guys have physically, and it's something you don't see all the time. The problem with figure is that there are too many fucking rounds. It gets boring. There are beautiful women everywhere and when you have to sit through seeing the same girls do 5 different rounds for 2 hours, the novelty wears off. Like I said before. There has to be more of a innovative approach to women's physique sports, or I'm afraid it might die.

Interestingly, the Arnold Classic finals are done on 2 separate nights - Friday night was all women and Saturday was the men's show. I was fortunate enough to attend both. The women's night was sold out as well as the men's. However, many people left after the Fitness and Figure awards were presented, before FBB were. :(

[Sandpig]

However, many people left after the Fitness and Figure awards were presented, before FBB were. :(

That's sad.

[~gymdiva~]

Interestingly, the Arnold Classic finals are done on 2 separate nights - Friday night was all women and Saturday was the men's show. I was fortunate enough to attend both. The women's night was sold out as well as the men's. However, many people left after the Fitness and Figure awards were presented, before FBB were. :(

I noticed this, too...and at a show like that I think what brings the people out is fitness...those routines are just so kickass and the audience loves them...I say on a night like that to award figure, fbb, then fitness to keep the folks around...oh and bring back props for the fbb (and mbb for that matter)...let them put on a show! it makes for a good time...

[Suzanne]

MEN really come out to see MEN...wow


of course they do
Chase wants to compete in BBing so he watches the men

i watch the womens bb

i kinda assume we aren't watching physique events cuz we are "attracted" to the competitors but because we aspire to be that look and admire the dedication and level they have brought their physiques to

[Suzanne]

Thx for your insight...
So are there women out there that wanna look like the top 5 from the Arnold?

yes! well i guess i have to be a mini version since i am short :)

[Suzanne]

Yup
When I 1st started I told my trainer I didnt want to get BIG n BULKY...
I like how I looked (feminine w/ muscles) and when people ask me what I do- they think I still run track n then I tell them know Im a bodybuilder and they still look at me funny cause they are like WOW you dont look like the typical bodybuilder...


I find it a compliment when people ask if i am a bodybuilder :)

[dvsness]

I noticed this, too...and at a show like that I think what brings the people out is fitness...those routines are just so kickass and the audience loves them...I say on a night like that to award figure, fbb, then fitness to keep the folks around...oh and bring back props for the fbb (and mbb for that matter)...let them put on a show! it makes for a good time...


Fitness is absolutely the pursuit with the highest entertainment value!


yes! well i guess i have to be a mini version since i am short :)

:D


I find it a compliment when people ask if i am a bodybuilder :)

Absolutely!!

[Gerb]

In my opinion it is an image problem with FBB. Sponsors don't like the current image/product.

One solution for sponsors could be to hold invitationals rather than Opens. This would allow the promoters to guarrentee the sponsor of the type of product they are supporting. If you have an overly masculine look, if your voice sounds like a mans, if you aren't willing to focus on the stage presence then you aren't going to get the envite.

I know that might sound harsh, my wife is a FBB so I am a supporter of the sport, not a hater, but you can't get around the fact that FBB has an image issue. The product needs changing IF we want the sport to grow and recover. In the end, it is a business. In the business world, if the product doesn't sell, it is changed, modified, or canned. Based on recent judging at National level shows over the past couple years, it seems that a new look is coming. I personally am optimistic that we will see a rebirth over the next several years in FBB as more figure girls cross over to BB and the numbers increase again.

These are my opinions based on what I think could help the sport recover. I have a great deal of respect for all female athletes regardless of whether they fit into the new judging standards that are being applied to the sport.

[tammyp]

the new look IS being rewarded, BUT alot of girls that get a pro card never compete as a pro. why ???? i dont get it. look back over the years...alot of winner of national shows have never graced a pro stage.

[fitbody]

the new look IS being rewarded, BUT alot of girls that get a pro card never compete as a pro. why ???? i dont get it. look back over the years...alot of winner of national shows have never graced a pro stage.

that is so true for Canada !!!!

[Gerb]

the new look IS being rewarded, BUT alot of girls that get a pro card never compete as a pro. why ???? i dont get it. look back over the years...alot of winner of national shows have never graced a pro stage.

You are absolutely correct. This is a problem. Hopefully over the next few years these new pro's do start competing. I feel thou it is going to take better organization and representation of the FBBs.

This problems with FBB's lack of support vs BB is not unique. I am involved in cycling through my older daughters athletics. She competes at a very high national level and it is the same. Females always get the shaft. Men run that sport too. However, there are some positive steps taking place in the sport of female cycling and more opportunities are beginning to open up for the ladies at the national/pro level. It has required people to step up and really take charge. Organization is very important. I see very little if any organization among FBBing. While on the mens side this might not be too much of an issue, Men run the sport, but on the womens side, having organization is extremely important. Having a governing body that actually cares about the women as much as the men is very important. The women clearly need better reps at the top. People need to start thinking outside of the box. I go back again to the idea of offering an invitational. Invite all these new Pro's that have never competed, invite the girls that seem to truly care about the image of the sport. That is just one idea, it might be a crap idea but the women need to start thinking about their sport from a new point of view. I get that BB & FBB will never be mainstream but there was certainly a time when the Ms. O enjoyed the spot light too, she was on magazine covers, etc... . Dave P's idea of bringing back a classic female bodybuilding was a good example of thinking outside the box, it might not work but atleast it is an idea, something to think about. While BB has always been a sport about pushing the limits and boundarys of what people thought was possible, at some point, all sports must learn to conform to ensure their long term survival. MMA is a great example. It never went mainstream until they added in the rules; gloves, shorts, weight classes etc... yes, it had a hardcore following before but it wasn't nearly as accepted as it is today, it is still not mainstream, never will be, alot of people don't like seeing the blood and the brutal nature of fighting but because of the rules changes and the fact that the leadership conformed to a level that met some minimum standards, it is now thriving. MMA is not FBB, I get that, just an example though of leadership doing what was right for the sport to ensure it's health.

[5150]

it seems that a new look is coming. I personally am optimistic that we will see a rebirth over the next several years in FBB as more figure girls cross over to BB and the numbers increase again.


I cannot agree with this statement more. Although this is a sport the sponsors only look at it from a business point of view. I believe we will see softer less muscular women taking home the trophies in figure and the "drier, more muscular" women from figure crossing over to FBB and winning. Just as stated above, The very masculine look of some of the top FBB pro's right now just does not appeal to the masses and as much as that sucks it's affecting business, show's, sponsors money placement etc.

I was watching an MD vid of Ms. Giacomi and her BF Tim Corscadden (sp) train and as awesome as she looks, one of the first statements she made in the vid is that she is crossing over from figure to FBB because she was losing shows due to her muscualrity and conditioning..... To me she does not look big enough to be a BB but, I think that's a tell tale sign of what's to come.

[dvsness]

I cannot agree with this statement more. Although this is a sport the sponsors only look at it from a business point of view. I believe we will see softer less muscular women taking home the trophies in figure and the "drier, more muscular" women from figure crossing over to FBB and winning. Just as stated above, The very masculine look of some of the top FBB pro's right now just does not appeal to the masses and as much as that sucks it's affecting business, show's, sponsors money placement etc.

I was watching an MD vid of Ms. Giacomi and her BF Tim Corscadden (sp) train and as awesome as she looks, one of the first statements she made in the vid is that she is crossing over from figure to FBB because she was losing shows due to her muscualrity and conditioning..... To me she does not look big enough to be a BB but, I think that's a tell tale sign of what's to come.

Andrea competed as a HW last year and won the overall at the Gold's Classic.

[5150]

Andrea competed as a HW last year and won the overall at the Gold's Classic.

.......And placed 2nd in the NPC Eastern USA's.

What I was gettin' at is her look or more the future of FBB.

[K-Max]

I totally agree with what steve g said.

I think once more people in general appreciate the muscular female form there will eventually be a recovery of the FBB sport.

I think it's only been within the last 10 years that there has been more and more tolerance for the muscular look in women and that builds from the ground up from when people are kids.

FBB won't die in my opinion. But it's so darn hard to gain that look which is muscular but is still aesthetically pleasing (and marketable and profitable). Even if you do have the muscularity, you still need the lines, shape and femininity to win shows and lucrative deals.

[Skeptic]

I am SOOOO confused about the state of the women's side of the sport.

I want to try to find a way to make heads or tails of it all, but I don't even know what questions to ask.

It just SEEEEEEMS to me like, after you boil it all down, after you strip away all of the post-modern rhetoric, what the women are faced with, that the men are not, is that male-female sexual attraction is partially dictating the direction of a sport.

There. I said it. I'm glad I said it. It is probably irrelevant to the specifics of this particular cancellation. But I needed to say it. There.

[MsGuns]

Thx gals n guys...
So how do women get the sponsors interested?
Or are fans will to pitch in and put on a show for the women?

[Gerb]

Thx gals n guys...
So how do women get the sponsors interested?
Or are fans will to pitch in and put on a show for the women?

There must be a fee that goes to the IFBB or something that is causing shows to get cancelled, right? The promoter won't put up the fee without a sponsor. ANyone know what the fee is? Is there a fee. I heard a $10k number some place but not sure if that is true. Anyone know the deal?

[MsGuns]

There must be a fee that goes to the IFBB or something that is causing shows to get cancelled, right? The promoter won't put up the fee without a sponsor. ANyone know what the fee is? Is there a fee. I heard a $10k number some place but not sure if that is true. Anyone know the deal?

yes, there is a saction fee of $4000 plus they have to cover prize money.
Better yet do you have all that money? I dont think the promoters do thats why they get sponsors.

[Gerb]

yes, there is a saction fee of $4000 plus they have to cover prize money.
Better yet do you have all that money? I dont think the promoters do thats why they get sponsors.

I am flattered you would like steve g to start bailing out the FBB industry.:rolleyes: I'll have to chat with my wife on that one.:p

4k is not that much. I am amazed promoters can not come up with that. In fact, I call BS. The money is there, but it takes away from the promoters profit so unless they have a specific sponsor, they won't put on the show. prize money can always be lowered. i am pretty sure FBBs are in it for the coin.

this is where the lack of organization and leadership specifically for FBBing is contributing to the problem. who is representing you? no one. If you all had a governing body or organization that was actively seeking to market the product and set the standards, I feel a come back could be made much quicker and a product/standards developed with some staying power. all FBB Pro's need to get together and form some sort of organization outside the IFBB and address the problem head on. Obviously it will take some hard work by a few but given the current state the sport, an endeavor like this is long over due. In the long term, until female bodybuilders get proper respresentation in a sport run by men, they will always get the shaft.

[Curt James]

I think what should be looked at is how can the IFBB
bring back womens bodybuilding to it's former glory
the women are only doing what they have to do to WIN

With that in mind, would anyone like to comment on the Arnold Amateur?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/BB/hml.jpg
L-R: Maria Rita Bello, Elena Shportun (Overall), Johanna Dejager

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/BB/elenashportunandcassandrafloyd.jpg
Elena Shportun and Cassandra Floyd

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/BB/elenashportun.jpg
Shportun

[Gerb]

Uh, what the heck does that have to do with Cancelling Pro shows Curt?

... the heavyweight was robbed, if they wanted to send a message, they should have gave it to the LW like they did at Junior Nats ... now get back on topic.:p

[Curt James]

Uh, what the heck does that have to do with Cancelling Pro shows Curt?

... the heavyweight was robbed, if they wanted to send a message, they should have gave it to the LW like they did at Junior Nats ... now get back on topic.:p

Hey, Boss! I believe it's directly related to canceling shows.

fitbody stated, "I think what should be looked at is how can the IFBB
bring back womens bodybuilding to it's former glory the women are only doing what they have to do to WIN"

Maybe what they have to do to "WIN" is to adapt to the seemingly new judging standards. :(

The heavyweight was huge and ripped, however is she what is best for female bodybuilding given the current economic environment?

What I mean by that is, if the sponsors are not anteing up then perhaps they need a reason to do just that.

A new paradigm.

Elena Shportun. An Anja Langer for the modern era perhaps.

Give me Annie or give me death, okay? But I'm not trying to put a Pro FBB competition together. I'm not trying to get sponsors on board and forking over that suitcase o' dough necessary to put on a top flight production.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/46289088.jpg

[Gerb]

Hey, Boss! I believe it's directly related to canceling shows.

fitbody stated, "I think what should be looked at is how can the IFBB
bring back womens bodybuilding to it's former glory the women are only doing what they have to do to WIN"

Maybe what they have to do to "WIN" is to adapt to the seemingly new judging standards. :(

The heavyweight was huge and ripped, however is she what is best for female bodybuilding given the current economic environment?

What I mean by that is, if the sponsors are not anteing up then perhaps they need a reason to do just that.

A new paradigm.

Elena Shportun. An Anja Langer for the modern era perhaps.

Give me Annie or give me death, okay? But I'm not trying to put a Pro FBB competition together. I'm not trying to get sponsors on board and forking over that suitcase o' dough necessary to put on a top flight production.



Ok, I conceed, you have a very valid point actually. - Boss:D

[Curt James]

Ok, I conceed, you have a very valid point actually. - Boss:D

Is there an organization that rewards the more massive women?

I'm not looking to "win" an argument. I'd love for all the women to feel that they have a place to compete and a chance at succeeding or achieving their goals while being rewarded or recognized for those achievements.

I was happy with Shportun as the Overall at the Arnold Amateur, but agree that Maria was incredibly conditioned.

Ed Pariso just came on the show. It was January 26, 2009.

Pariso graduated from H.S. in Orlando. His sister lives there. Eighty percent done. Vendors, custom car show, a mirror show.

Foundation of bodybuilding with Gaspari, VPX, etc. there but Pariso is bringing MMA and more to the show to increase foot traffic.

"In these economic times" Ed Pariso stated he's afraid to hold a stand alone bb show.

Romano asks, "Why no fbb show?"

Ed Pariso quotes or partial quotes. Listen to the show because I'm not ffwd and rewinding.

"Also no 202. Never planned to have women's bb at the first Orlando show.

"Dallas show was a problem. Women's bb paid out of pocket for five years.

"Some of the women were great to us but others didn't seem to appreciate us," according to Ed Pariso.

"A little bit of a thank you. And that's what we feel that we really didn't get."

"Ten trophies for the women and the trophies were still standing there at the end of the show.

"Miscommunication...

"We were frustrated.

"If you're not going to support....

"It's coming out of my pocket...

"If you guys don't get it, we do."

"I still love (women's bodybuilding), but...

"We didn't get any thank-yous."

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1413/140/

It's in there. A very clear statement by Ed Pariso as to why he and his wife, apparently, chose not to go forward with the women's bb shows.

Starts about 3/4 of the way into the show. Maybe a little more than 3/4.

[Gerb]

Is there an organization that rewards the more massive women?

I'm not looking to "win" an argument.

Curt, bro (or should I say, knucklehead!) ... I was saying that I see your point of view and that you had a valid reason to post the Arnold pics.

hence: "I conceed, you have a very valid point actually"

[Curt James]

Curt, bro (or should I say, knucklehead!) ... I was saying that I see your point of view and that you had a valid reason to post the Arnold pics.

hence: "I conceed, you have a very valid point actually"

No, no, I understood that, Steve.

But I won't disagree with knucklehead as a nickname ever. lol

:beerbang:

[Gerb]

On Ed, he cares about the money. If he cared about the sport he would have FBB in his shows. It is really very simple.

If the ladies pissed them off (which obviously they are pissed about it)then they could easily let all of them know they are not welcome back in 09 and send out invites to a whole bunch of other IFBB Pros who have never even competed or didn't do the show. Let others know they are welcome and let the 08 crew know why they aren't. Then if all goes well, invite them all back in 2010.

As a (very part-time, I have been a part of 5 events promoting them) cycling promoter, I'd never host an event without female racing cause I care about the sport of female cycling, however, I could easily make sure certain females did not show up to my event. Why punish All!?!

[BigAl33]

On Ed, he cares about the money. If he cared about the sport he would have FBB in his shows. It is really very simple.

If the ladies pissed them off (which obviously they are pissed about it)then they could easily let all of them know they are not welcome back in 09 and send out invites to a whole bunch of other IFBB Pros who have never even competed or didn't do the show. Let others know they are welcome and let the 08 crew know why they aren't. Then if all goes well, invite them all back in 2010.

As a (very part-time, I have been a part of 5 events promoting them) cycling promoter, I'd never host an event without female racing cause I care about the sport of female cycling, however, I could easily make sure certain females did not show up to my event. Why punish All!?!

Been reading the posts.. Good point why punish everyone? I agree. And yes, Curt is a knucklehead:D

[Curt James]

On Ed, he cares about the money. If he cared about the sport he would have FBB in his shows. It is really very simple.

If the ladies pissed them off (which obviously they are pissed about it)then they could easily let all of them know they are not welcome back in 09 and send out invites to a whole bunch of other IFBB Pros who have never even competed or didn't do the show. Let others know they are welcome and let the 08 crew know why they aren't. Then if all goes well, invite them all back in 2010.

As a (very part-time, I have been a part of 5 events promoting them) cycling promoter, I'd never host an event without female racing cause I care about the sport of female cycling, however, I could easily make sure certain females did not show up to my event. Why punish All!?!

Maybe Betty, as female rep, doesn't have that luxury or option. :( I don't know, but your suggestion sounds like a lawsuit.

And Pariso said he paid for the women's show out of his pocket for five years. If he was all about the Benjamins then why do it even twice?

It does seem like a shame to punish all the female competitors but I'm betting a lawyer's attached to that part of it.

Kudos to you on including both the men and women always.

[Curt James]

Been reading the posts.. Good point why punish everyone? I agree. And yes, Curt is a knucklehead:D

It's unanimous.

Uh, well, among us three anyway. :wavey:

(Jerk. :mad:)

:D

[Gerb]

Maybe Betty, as female rep, doesn't have that luxury or option. :( I don't know, but your suggestion sounds like a lawsuit.

And Pariso said he paid for the women's show out of his pocket for five years. If he was all about the Benjamins then why do it even twice?

It does seem like a shame to punish all the female competitors but I'm betting a lawyer's attached to that part of it.

Kudos to you on including both the men and women always.

Can the ladies not invited to the Ms International file suit? No. It's an inventational, right? There are ways around it. The only way he paid out of his pocket is if he has lost money the last 5 yrs. It is just fuzzy accounting. All money goes into one pot; sponsor dollars, entry fees, ticket sales, I promise you, Ed doesn't have a different check book for each aspect of the show. It is not unusual for a for one part of an event to carry another in other sports. He just needs to say it is about the coin, that is the truth. Maybe in the past when they felt respected, they didn't mind the extra expense but now they do mind the extra expense. It still comes back to the money.

[Curt James]

Can the ladies not invited to the Ms International file suit? No. It's an inventational, right? There are ways around it. The only way he paid out of his pocket is if he has lost money the last 5 yrs. It is just fuzzy accounting. All money goes into one pot; sponsor dollars, entry fees, ticket sales, I promise you, Ed doesn't have a different check book for each aspect of the show. It is not unusual for a for one part of an event to carry another in other sports. He just needs to say it is about the coin, that is the truth. Maybe in the past when they felt respected, they didn't mind the extra expense but now they do mind the extra expense. It still comes back to the money.

Agreed!

[Mufasa]

I've got to add something here, guys.

When you have an "Expo" like the Pariso's put on; each event becomes a "cost center". It makes sense, because you have to know which event makes you money; those that lose you money; and those that merely break even. Examples of those cost centers may be powerlifting; MMA demo; car show; Men's Bodybuilding; Women's Bodybuilding, etc.

Each "cost center" (event) will have a sponsor and/or sponsers; and some will have things like entry fees, etc. Each event (cost center) can then be evaluated as to whether it makes you money or cost you money.

AND THIS IS IMPORTANT IN THIS DISCUSSION:

OVERALL a promotor may make a profit; but when one of those cost centers LOSES money, the promotor, in fact, DOES pay "out of their pocket" because of that events inablity to pay for itself. (As a minimum).

Ed points out that FBB did not get the sponsor support and therefore did not pay for itself.

(Regrettably, something similar happened to Tim Gardner and the Tampa show).


These events are buisnesses, guys...they are not "not-for-profit" foundations.



Mufasa

[HeavyDutyGuy]

We were wondering that too...
MEN really come out to see MEN...wow
I thought MEN were attracted to WOMEN but I guess not women w/ more muscle than them, huh?

It isn't about SEX for guys (at least straight ones) who go to shows. Its about seeing the physiques-either for inspiration, if they're way ahead such as pros, or to see how you stack up, or just being a fan. Sex isn't even on the radar unless were walking around the lobby scoping out fitness babes. For most guys, womens bodybuilding is an add on. More muscle? I have yet to see a cut up 20" arm on a woman. I think guys either support, tolerate or ignore the womens rounds. I watch usually cause their presentation is usually interesting. However, one round of figure and I'm bored and out to the lobby in search of freebies..

[Mandla]

On Ed, he cares about the money. If he cared about the sport he would have FBB in his shows. It is really very simple.

If the ladies pissed them off (which obviously they are pissed about it)then they could easily let all of them know they are not welcome back in 09 and send out invites to a whole bunch of other IFBB Pros who have never even competed or didn't do the show. Let others know they are welcome and let the 08 crew know why they aren't. Then if all goes well, invite them all back in 2010.

As a (very part-time, I have been a part of 5 events promoting them) cycling promoter, I'd never host an event without female racing cause I care about the sport of female cycling, however, I could easily make sure certain females did not show up to my event. Why punish All!?!

I think Steve makes a very good point. Although, I believe it's a bit harsh to say that Ed does not care about FBB, I understand the idea that Steve will always have female cycling because that promotes cycling for women and young girls. If you present an opportunity to women, in a previously traditional "male" sport, it shows women that this particular sport is also for them and there will always be a place and support for them in the sport. My perspective w/regards to the Parisos dropping FBB from their current list of shows is that they simply are siding with the economics over their love for FBB. Taking a hit out of your pocket for 5 yrs is tough to take. And, this speaks to the cost center idea; some of the more profitable events(cost ctrs) should be used to support the less profitable events. But, I agree with Steve. Don't punish all, invite new blood, re-up with "problem" athletes in the year after next.

I'll also side with Curt on the Annie or death concept. I think he's addressing bb limits in the sport as they pertain to gender. That's a difficult concept to get a handle on sometimes but that's a bigger conversation.

I think some of the sponsorship issues for FBB are a result of a cultural history that FBB is not a part of. Money comes from sponsors who are generally equipment, supplement companies or magazines(who get their money from supplement companies). All of these entities are driven by and replenished by the consumer:Male. MBB is rooted in the Charles Atlas scenario(although it goes back further I'll use Charles Atlas since everyone knows the comic). The Insult that Made a Man out of Mac, bully kicking sand in the face, the 97lb weakling, all these come out of that Charles Atlas scenario that promotes young boys towards BB and the like. For the young male the issues are the same now as it was in the past. Problems w/bullies at school, wanting to be better at sports, getting the girl, etc etc still goes on today for young males. Young men go to "Charles Atlas", supplement companies etc to deal with these problems. So, for instance, supplement companies have a continuously replenishing supply of customers. The young male. The more young boys, the greater the customer base for supplement companies>therefore greater money made. That supplement product will help me to solve my problems therefore I buy it. This is rooted in our male culture.

Women, & especially young girls, don't have this issue as such. They are not told that taking a supplement will make them better at sports( of which there had been very little opportunity), they aren't seeking to prevent sand getting kicked in their face by the bully, etc. So, droves of young women and girls are not running out to buy supplements each year. This results in a lesser customer base for supplement companies>therefore lesser money made.

Supplement companies don't send sponsorship dollars toward FBB, by and large, because that's not their customer(read $) base. Now, I will say that these companies could do a better job marketing to women and developing better products for them to help them with their fitness and BB journey. I believe women would take advantage of these products if these companies had spokeswomen that were respected promoting products. But I think this is at the heart of the lack of sponsorship for FBB. So, therefore, other sponsorship possibilities need to be investigated. These would have to establish an appeal to young girls since they would be the ones who would continue to build the sport.

One thing we can do is drop the reins when it comes to FBB posing routines. It should be more of a professional production and in line with fitness routines, like others have said. Props, lighting, costumes, there should be no holds barred because the free posing routine is the most entertaining aspect of the show. It should be very theatrical. I think Paul Dillett is doing this kind of thing with his federation in Canada.

With regards to mainstream appeal, I'm not so interested in that. Lisa Auckland made a reference to that in saying she likes that BB is kind of its own world. I would agree. BB, for the most part is thriving. Local shows get sold out. FBB competitors are growing. We need to offer more opportunities and make it worthwhile for the Brit Millers, Kristy Hawkinses and Cindy Phillipses of the world greater incentives to compete. We need to offer FBB more opportunities to do what they love doing.

Sorry this is such a long f***ing read.

[Skeptic]

I follow professional cycling. Women's cycling has had a very tough time globally over the last 25 years. There have been years where the women's version of the Tour de France was cancelled due to lack of sponsorship.

Currently, it is much healthier.

And women's soccer, in North America, was a zero sport 25 years ago. Now it's vibrant. Kids brought up in a sport support a sport.

Curt MAY be a knucklehead but I gotta thank him for posting the Arnold amateur pics. Just wow! That Russian is something else! Like freaky-ass wow!

[Skeptic]

Women, & especially young girls, don't have this issue as such. They are not told that taking a supplement will make them better at sports( of which there had been very little opportunity), they aren't seeking to prevent sand getting kicked in their face by the bully, etc. So, droves of young women and girls are not running out to buy supplements each year. This results in a lesser customer base for supplement companies>therefore lesser money made.



I believe this WAS true. OTC fat burners sell mostly to women and make up a HUGE part of the industry. Read any copy of Oxygen magazine (and try not to lose your lunch reading the drivel) and see the ad space given over the fat burners.

[Gerb]

On Ed, he cares about the money. If he cared about the sport he would have FBB in his shows. It is really very simple.




I think Steve makes a very good point. Although, I believe it's a bit harsh to say that Ed does not care about FBB, I understand the idea that Steve will always have female cycling because that promotes cycling for women and young girls. If you present an opportunity to women, in a previously traditional "male" sport, it shows women that this particular sport is also for them and there will always be a place and support for them in the sport. My perspective w/regards to the Parisos dropping FBB from their current list of shows is that they simply are siding with the economics over their love for FBB. Taking a hit out of your pocket for 5 yrs is tough to take. And, this speaks to the cost center idea; some of the more profitable events(cost ctrs) should be used to support the less profitable events. But, I agree with Steve. Don't punish all, invite new blood, re-up with "problem" athletes in the year after next.



On Ed specifically, you are right, that was too harsh. I am sure he does care of the sport. However, as a promoter, he cares more about the money which is what 99.9% of all promotors who are not a 5013C are also going to care about.

I guess what rubbed me the wrong way is I felt their response was kinda like kicking someone when they are down. To say, we simple do not have a sponsor to cover the costs this year so we aren't putting on a FBB show (like Tim G did is one thing, very upfront). IMO, to take a sport like FBB which is going through some very rough times and then say, that the reason you aren't going to support it is because the women are despectful and therefore did not deserve it (effectively IMO what they said) is not right, the reality is, it was simply a money issue, just say it. This of course all brings us back to the main point, how do FBBers come together and revitalize the sport? That is the question that needs debating.

All good posts above and valid points of view.

[MsGuns]

Been reading the posts.. Good point why punish everyone? I agree. And yes, Curt is a knucklehead:D

BigAl Im w/ you...why punish all 40 ladies when only 2-3 were really disrespectful.

We need to hear from Betty because the ladies were given the option to come back at a later time. Apparently hubby didnt know this.

Also we need to find Big Al the expeditor...is this you Big Al???
He can confirm they were given an option of coming later.

This has been said over and over again by pros who were told they had an option of 1:30 or 3:30.

[MsGuns]

Thx for the dicussions...
Some very good points...
I believe Betty can clear some things up for us...

[Big J1]

I follow professional cycling. Women's cycling has had a very tough time globally over the last 25 years. There have been years where the women's version of the Tour de France was cancelled due to lack of sponsorship.

Currently, it is much healthier.

And women's soccer, in North America, was a zero sport 25 years ago. Now it's vibrant. Kids brought up in a sport support a sport.

Curt MAY be a knucklehead but I gotta thank him for posting the Arnold amateur pics. Just wow! That Russian is something else! Like freaky-ass wow!


yes but there is NO women's pro soccer league in the US

Big J1

[Curt James]

I think Steve makes a very good point.(snip)
Sorry this is such a long f***ing read.

Long but interesting. I read every word.

Women may not have to deal with sand being kicked in their face, but all women want to look good in jeans.

If advertisers would showcase bodybuilding's transformative (izzat a word?) powers then perhaps more women would pursue the iron.

Isn't anemia a problem for many women? Perhaps some play on words related to a physique being "iron-poor".

Uh, okay, I'll be quiet now. :o

[Skeptic]

yes but there is NO women's pro soccer league in the US

Big J1

Interestingly there IS a women's soccer league in.......... Iran. They have to wear their head covers and no men can be in the stadium.

Look at how long it took women to get a pro basketball league. And why is it that men have Olympic decathlon but women have heptathlon?

But I digress....

[Gerb]

yes but there is NO women's pro soccer league in the US

Big J1

really?

http://www.womensprosoccer.com/

[Skeptic]

really?

http://www.womensprosoccer.com/

Schweeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

[Gerb]

Schweeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

... off topic but this league looks like it has some staying power, they have a solid TV contract with Fox Sports and are expanding in 2010 adding several new teams. Teams are also coast to coast too so it isn't just local to a region. It is great to see as there are alot of ladies out there playing college soccer and this league will hopefully give them a place to continue their competitive careers

[MsGuns]

back to bodybuilding...

READ this article written by a FBB Carolyn Bryant...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/other44.htm

What do you think after you read this?

Will FBBs ever get a chance?

[jasons805]

back to bodybuilding...

READ this article written by a FBB Carolyn Bryant...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/other44.htm

What do you think after you read this?

Will FBBs ever get a chance?
I saw she posted that in the Tampa topic on sc not a bad read I guess.

[Mandla]

Long but interesting. I read every word.

Women may not have to deal with sand being kicked in their face, but all women want to look good in jeans.

If advertisers would showcase bodybuilding's transformative (izzat a word?) powers then perhaps more women would pursue the iron. :o

My sentiments exactly. Fitness advertisers are not taking advantage of the benefits of what throwing around some iron & pushing supplements will do for women.
I'd be interested in how effective Cathy Lefrancois(BB), Tanji Johnson(fitness) and Marzia Prince(bikini) are with the female market for Gaspari Nutrition, as they are spokeswomen for the company.

[Femphysiquefan]

I think that another thing that may help prevent the cancellation of pro FBB shows is if the secret fan base starts making itself known in force. I don't know if most FBBs realize this, but you ladies have a MUCH larger fan base among guys than actually lets on. From what I have seen there is a fairly sizable number of guys who literally are secret admirers of female bodybuilders. They very much are fans of the sport, but they are fans living in fear, fear of what their friends and families might think of their admiration of you ladies. I have seen this time and time and time again online--in chatrooms, on forum boards, and in MySpace and Facebook groups. I know this fan base exists, because I was one of these secret fans for 22 years. No one, not even my own family, knew of my fandom for FBB until 2007. If more of these secret admirers were to make themselves known, come out of hiding and start attending shows and expos, I believe it would be of considerable help, and you would start to see more shows. It may not be the cure-all for pro FBB's woes, but I think it would definitely help the current situation.

[HeavyDutyGuy]

Certainly female atheletes deserve competitive venues. I can't help thinking of an older quote in "Pumping Iron 2", it went something to the effect of "this is good, and interesting, but there's no female archetype for this.." And he may have nailed it. Unless you think of the Amzon myths, there really isn't one.. Could a new archetype evolve and be valid? Possibly. But not by just sitting back and expecting it to happen. Mens bodybuilding evolved over a 100 years- and the historical antecedents went back thousands. Even with that, there were years of struggle, often painful abuse "they're just musclebound freaks." It took Eugene Sandows often heroic efforts, the sometimes comical, but often inspirational Charles Atlas, the Hercules movies of Reeves and Park, til finally a charismatic character with a world beating physique named Arnold to finally crash the cultural barriers and make way for the Ferrignos, the Zanes, the Mentzers, the Haneys, all of whom had their own unique ways of bring the sport along and more acceptable. The reason its backslid has been that subsequent Mr O caliber champions lacked their popularizing gifts. The women did have Cory Everson who helped promote it to a wider audience, but again, subsequent Ms O caliber champions lacked the ability to continue the trend. Not to single out, but can anyone cite the mass appeal of Iris Kyle for example?. None of this is to put down the competitors as atheletes or physiques, male or female, as many have been awesome or downright formidable. To elucidate, without a base,a pyramid falls, or fails....

[MsGuns]

I think that another thing that may help prevent the cancellation of pro FBB shows is if the secret fan base starts making itself known in force. I don't know if most FBBs realize this, but you ladies have a MUCH larger fan base among guys than actually lets on. From what I have seen there is a fairly sizable number of guys who literally are secret admirers of female bodybuilders. They very much are fans of the sport, but they are fans living in fear, fear of what their friends and families might think of their admiration of you ladies. I have seen this time and time and time again online--in chatrooms, on forum boards, and in MySpace and Facebook groups. I know this fan base exists, because I was one of these secret fans for 22 years. No one, not even my own family, knew of my fandom for FBB until 2007. If more of these secret admirers were to make themselves known, come out of hiding and start attending shows and expos, I believe it would be of considerable help, and you would start to see more shows. It may not be the cure-all for pro FBB's woes, but I think it would definitely help the current situation.

attending shows and expos wont do it...
they need sponsors b4 hand to foot the bill...attending shows and expos come after...

[Curt James]

attending shows and expos wont do it...
they need sponsors b4 hand to foot the bill...attending shows and expos come after...

If customers are all over "the store" then the "shop keeper" will spend money on the product they're demanding.

Just saying that it's a chicken versus egg scenario, imo. Iow, attending shows and expos couldn't hurt, right?

[MsGuns]

If customers are all over "the store" then the "shop keeper" will spend money on the product they're demanding.

Just saying that it's a chicken versus egg scenario, imo. Iow, attending shows and expos couldn't hurt, right?

Curt they do that now...
hello no sponsors to sponsor the women...
its not enuff and i dont think attending shows n expos will help..just my 2c...smile

[Curt James]

Curt they do that now...
hello no sponsors to sponsor the women...
its not enuff and i dont think attending shows n expos will help..just my 2c...smile

No, no, no. I meant "attend" as in show up in force, seething, rampaging, demanding that you get more women's bodybuilding or there will be blood flowing in the aisles!

[/i]What?[/i]

It could happen.

:)

Well, it could.

:mad:

[MsGuns]

No, no, no. I meant "attend" as in show up in force, seething, rampaging, demanding that you get more women's bodybuilding or there will be blood flowing in the aisles!

[/i]What?[/i]

It could happen.

:)

Well, it could.

:mad:

oh that would be amazing...but they are all in hiding...smile
Can you hold a meeting?

[Curt James]

oh that would be amazing...but they are all in hiding...smile
Can you hold a meeting?

Let me sharpen my axe.

[Femphysiquefan]

No, no, no. I meant "attend" as in show up in force, seething, rampaging, demanding that you get more women's bodybuilding or there will be blood flowing in the aisles!

[/i]What?[/i]

It could happen.

:)

Well, it could.

:mad:

Not EXACTLY what I had in mind, but you did get the gist of it. :D Everyone seems to keep coming back to the same thing: lack of demand or market for FBB. In reality, there IS a demand but a tacit one, since several fans aren't acting on it for fear of being labeled freaks by others in their lives. If they would get over their fear and started coming out in considerable numbers, then the demand would increase, and the federations would then take steps to meet that demand. Again, not promising the next Golden Age of FBB, but it would still help matters.

[Gerb]

Not EXACTLY what I had in mind, but you did get the gist of it. :D Everyone seems to keep coming back to the same thing: lack of demand or market for FBB. In reality, there IS a demand but a tacit one, since several fans aren't acting on it for fear of being labeled freaks by others in their lives. If they would get over their fear and started coming out in considerable numbers, then the demand would increase, and the federations would then take steps to meet that demand. Again, not promising the next Golden Age of FBB, but it would still help matters.

With complete respect for your opinion, in my opinion, the "fans" are not the solution, it is the lack of #1 organization, a governing body or whatever) of/and for FBBers #2 lack of leadership at the top; what are the ladies at the top of the sport doing to help promote/support the sport #3 complete failure by the IFBB to market the product and control the direction of the sport (IFBB double speak, flip flopping judging standards etc... )

I'll say it for the last time and then shut up.

The women of the sport, the actual FBBers need to step up and get organized, it will obviously take outside help from others than just the FBBers but it starts with them.

[Curt James]

The women of the sport, the actual FBBers need to step up and get organized, it will obviously take outside help from others than just the FBBers but it starts with them.

r3qDHErFdZc

"I think sometimes you'd like to see a little less muscle... the sport has evolved."

She mentions that figure and fitness is much more appealing.

Friend of foe of women's bodybuilding? She seemed fairly even. I've watched this video more than once and I go back and forth so far as my impression or response goes to this piece.

[MsGuns]

Not EXACTLY what I had in mind, but you did get the gist of it. :D Everyone seems to keep coming back to the same thing: lack of demand or market for FBB. In reality, there IS a demand but a tacit one, since several fans aren't acting on it for fear of being labeled freaks by others in their lives. If they would get over their fear and started coming out in considerable numbers, then the demand would increase, and the federations would then take steps to meet that demand. Again, not promising the next Golden Age of FBB, but it would still help matters.

J the fans cant change it...
If there was a demand then the sponsors would be on the bandwagon...
Where are you getting this from that its ALL ABOUT the fans?

[Mufasa]

I agree with Guns.

Fans may bring buisness to the hotels. restaurants, etc; and to some of the ladies individual session/posing/domination buisnesses...

But a Contest/Expo is dependent on sponsorships in order to be economically viable. In other words, the fees paid by sponsors forms the economic foundation. Entry fees from the contestants; attendance fees; etc. amount to a small percentage of the total revenue needed to cover an event.


Mufasa

[MsGuns]

I agree with Guns.

Fans may bring buisness to the hotels. restaurants, etc; and to some of the ladies individual session/posing/domination buisnesses...

But a Contest/Expo is dependent on sponsorships in order to be economically viable. In other words, the fees paid by sponsors forms the economic foundation. Entry fees from the contestants; attendance fees; etc. amount to a small percentage of the total revenue needed to cover an event.


Mufasa

Thats what I wanted to say...Right on Mufasa