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JR
09-18-2010, 11:25 PM
Would 250mgs/wk of primobolan help relieve joint pain and/or speed recover from elbow tendinitis? I am trying to avoid bloat, so if primo works as well, or almost as well, as deca, I am inclined to go with primo. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

shorty9
09-19-2010, 01:14 PM
an interesting question. Ive never run primo bc of the typically high cost, but from my experience with other compounds-anything that aromatizes or even has some progentional activity seems to add some fluid around the joints. Currently im about 2wks in to pct after doing test cyp for a good stretch-had planned on running for 10wks at 600mg/wk but ended up lowering dose and going longer. anyway, starting about a wk ago my elbows in particular have been killing me(never experienced this prob before) so i feel your pain literally. hope someone else can give you a better answer from 1st hand experience.

-Ps just curious, why are u concerned with keeping excess water to a minimum?

Bryan Hildebrand
09-19-2010, 02:45 PM
Vanity. Or hiding the fact you are on from friends family etc are the typical reasons people want to avoid bloat. Really, 300-400mg per week with an appropriate amount of test will help and not bloat you... assuming you eat clean and do your cardio. As for primo providing joint assistance... it mah but at large doses which would be self defeating.

Gunners
09-19-2010, 03:15 PM
Would 250mgs/wk of primobolan help relieve joint pain and/or speed recover from elbow tendinitis? I am trying to avoid bloat, so if primo works as well, or almost as well, as deca, I am inclined to go with primo. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

not in a million years.

s2h
09-19-2010, 06:28 PM
if i was thinking of relieving joint pain...primo wont even cross my mind....

JR
09-20-2010, 12:08 AM
-Ps just curious, why are u concerned with keeping excess water to a minimum? Thanks for your input. I avoid bloat because it raises my blood pressure severely, which among other things, gives me nose bleeds and makes cardio difficult (not to mention putting a greater strain on the heart).


... Really, 300-400mg per week with an appropriate amount of test will help ...

Thanks for your help. I was on 500mg test/wk when the joint pain started.. :(


not in a million years.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that deca and primo were equally effective in terms of gaining mass and strength, just asking in terms of reducing joint pain.


if i was thinking of relieving joint pain...primo wont even cross my mind....I took 500mg primo previously when I had joint pain and it did wonders. It is expensive, though, so I was hoping that a lower dose might work, too.

Bryan Hildebrand
09-20-2010, 12:35 AM
500mg test: 250mg deca is more than fine. 1:2 or 1:2.5 IMO for joint relief.

JR
09-20-2010, 01:08 AM
500mg test: 250mg deca is more than fine. 1:2 or 1:2.5 IMO for joint relief.
Thanks. I am also worried about high blood pressure on deca. do you think that if I add aromasin that would take care of the bloat?

s2h
09-20-2010, 06:28 AM
Thanks for your input. I avoid bloat because it raises my blood pressure severely, which among other things, gives me nose bleeds and makes cardio difficult (not to mention putting a greater strain on the heart).



Thanks for your help. I was on 500mg test/wk when the joint pain started.. :(


Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that deca and primo were equally effective in terms of gaining mass and strength, just asking in terms of reducing joint pain.

I took 500mg primo previously when I had joint pain and it did wonders. It is expensive, though, so I was hoping that a lower dose might work, too.500mg;s that why it wont cross my mind.........

red rocket
09-20-2010, 12:01 PM
If your worried about too much bloat, npp is another option. Bloat is alot less.

However most bloat is mainly due to diet and water intake, not so much the gear itslef.

JR
09-20-2010, 12:18 PM
If your worried about too much bloat, npp is another option. Bloat is alot less.

However most bloat is mainly due to diet and water intake, not so much the gear itslef.


interesting, thanks for the suggestion. Does NPP help with joint pain like deca?

lartinos
09-20-2010, 01:32 PM
This post has been cut and pasted a bunch of times. One more time, lol.

While injecting test increases Protein (http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/store/Protein-Products-c28/) synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons (http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/store/Post-Cycle-Therapy-Support-Supplements/Forged-Joint-Repair-p8.html), bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons (http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/store/Post-Cycle-Therapy-Support-Supplements/Forged-Joint-Repair-p8.html) of a very old man.

winstrol (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/winstrol.html) increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons (http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/store/Post-Cycle-Therapy-Support-Supplements/Forged-Joint-Repair-p8.html). However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/winstrol.html). Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/winstrol.html), to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/winstrol.html) should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/winstrol.html) because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. tendons (http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/store/Post-Cycle-Therapy-Support-Supplements/Forged-Joint-Repair-p8.html) tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon (http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/store/Post-Cycle-Therapy-Support-Supplements/Forged-Joint-Repair-p8.html).

winstrol (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/winstrol.html), on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon (http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/store/Post-Cycle-Therapy-Support-Supplements/Forged-Joint-Repair-p8.html).

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

deca (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/deca-durabolin.html), Equipoise, anavar (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/anavar-oxadrin.html), and primobolan (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/primobolan.html) will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone (http://www.drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/testosterone-cypionate.html) will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons (http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/store/Post-Cycle-Therapy-Support-Supplements/Forged-Joint-Repair-p8.html) due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase Joint (http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/store/Post-Cycle-Therapy-Support-Supplements/Forged-Joint-Repair-p8.html)/tendon (http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/store/Post-Cycle-Therapy-Support-Supplements/Forged-Joint-Repair-p8.html)/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like eq (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/equipoise.html), deca (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/deca-durabolin.html), anavar (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/anavar-oxadrin.html), or primo (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/primobolan.html) as the base of your cycle. testosterone (http://www.drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/testosterone-cypionate.html) and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/equipoise.html), deca (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/deca-durabolin.html), anavar (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/anavar-oxadrin.html) and primo (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/primobolan.html) will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone (http://www.drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/testosterone-cypionate.html) is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

deca (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/deca-durabolin.html) @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/deca-durabolin.html) is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

primobolan (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/primobolan.html), @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/deca-durabolin.html) and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/deca-durabolin.html).

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle Clomid (http://www.rxhealthdrugs.com/brand/287/41/clomid-clomiphene) use. Here they are:

deca (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/deca-durabolin.html): 15 days Equipoise: 14 days primobolan (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/primobolan.html): 10.5 days

anavar (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/anavar-oxadrin.html) has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH (http://www.whatyouneedtoknowabouthgh.com/) is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, HGH (http://www.whatyouneedtoknowabouthgh.com/) at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

eq (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/equipoise.html), primo (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/primobolan.html), anavar (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/anavar-oxadrin.html), and deca (http://drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/deca-durabolin.html) are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH (http://www.whatyouneedtoknowabouthgh.com/) just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone (http://www.drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/testosterone-cypionate.html) doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone (http://www.drugsprofiles.com/anabolic-androgenic-steroids/testosterone-cypionate.html), but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.

Bryan Hildebrand
09-20-2010, 01:40 PM
thats always a great read and refresher for those who havent seen it.

mikemn230
10-05-2010, 06:56 PM
That article is giving me some questions.

What was factored into the "testosterone reducing tendon strength"? Dose? Ester length? AI's used?

The guys I know who are on HRT at a higher end dose, or those who cruise on a lower dose of test, say 250mg EW, or a longer acting ester that converts more easily into Estradiol (E2) I would think should have rather strong tendons.

Is it dose dependant? I could easily see a situation where above a certain dose things get wonky, and the body starts to rob Peter to pay Paul in the collagen department.

What of the guys at the top of the physiological range? Or just mildy supra-physiologic? I would think those guys had tendons like steel cables. :dunno:

I have no idea at what doses that testosterone was causing the tendons to weaken, OR the duration of the ester, or if it was faster in and out like suspension, or prop.

From what I understand the longer working ester would convert more readily into E2 and thus the user should get some degree of tendon strength increase I would think.

If the ester is shorter, then in many cases it is in and out of the body before much gets converted to E2.

Also I do not know if any of the guys on testosterone were also using AI’s and dropping their E2 very low. Likely not all that uncommon for AAS users to run an AI while on cycle.

I would not be shocked if it was keeping E2 too low, rather than testosterone itself reducing collagen synthesis.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on E2 keeping tendons strong. This read seemed to indicate it does: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18927264

I always have avoided AI's unless its an absolute 100% needed thing. I do not mind a little water retention, and never had gyno. So long as my BP stays under 140/80 (mildly high) I do not reach for the AI's, and I have a scrpit for a fairly high dose of TRT, at 200mg EW.

MrOXY
10-05-2010, 07:25 PM
low dose deca . 250 mg per week and thats it

s2h
10-05-2010, 09:46 PM
That article is giving me some questions.

What was factored into the "testosterone reducing tendon strength"? Dose? Ester length? AI's used?

The guys I know who are on HRT at a higher end dose, or those who cruise on a lower dose of test, say 250mg EW, or a longer acting ester that converts more easily into Estradiol (E2) I would think should have rather strong tendons.

Is it dose dependant? I could easily see a situation where above a certain dose things get wonky, and the body starts to rob Peter to pay Paul in the collagen department.

What of the guys at the top of the physiological range? Or just mildy supra-physiologic? I would think those guys had tendons like steel cables. :dunno:

I have no idea at what doses that testosterone was causing the tendons to weaken, OR the duration of the ester, or if it was faster in and out like suspension, or prop.

From what I understand the longer working ester would convert more readily into E2 and thus the user should get some degree of tendon strength increase I would think.

If the ester is shorter, then in many cases it is in and out of the body before much gets converted to E2.

Also I do not know if any of the guys on testosterone were also using AIís and dropping their E2 very low. Likely not all that uncommon for AAS users to run an AI while on cycle.

I would not be shocked if it was keeping E2 too low, rather than testosterone itself reducing collagen synthesis.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on E2 keeping tendons strong. This read seemed to indicate it does: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18927264

I always have avoided AI's unless its an absolute 100% needed thing. I do not mind a little water retention, and never had gyno. So long as my BP stays under 140/80 (mildly high) I do not reach for the AI's, and I have a scrpit for a fairly high dose of TRT, at 200mg EW.get your BW and let it determine your E2...not possible sides.....