View Full Version : RAW vs. Equipped
This is NOT a thread to debate which one is more impressive, or takes more work etc.
With Ryan attempting to break Mendys 715 raw bench and Benni getting a new WR of 973.5 raw dead it seems like there is a bit more emphasis on raw lifting these days.
Would "most" people like to see more raw meets every year? It just seems that raw meets would bring more "recognition" to the sport as well as more competitors in general. Lets face it, it would be much easier to get the average gym guys to pause a bench and keep their ass down than it would be to get them into the latest shirt (and all the technique, form, time etc. that goes with it).
I am working with a couple guys at my gym right now that are doing the meet with me in Novemeber. I KNOW that if the meet were more about equipped (it has both divisions but a lot of raw guys), they would NOT have considered entering.
Raw seems "easier" to train for, not in regards to the effort you put in, but in the sense that you don't have to make such a production out of training. You don't need 2-4 guys to get you in your shirt/suit etc.
What do you guys think??
Should PL head back to more emphasis on RAW lifts?
Are things fine the way they are?
Would more RAW meets help build the sport more?
Ryan Bracewell
10-13-2010, 10:38 AM
The biggest problem with raw meets is its alot harder to find sponsorship. From what I have heard if you even have a raw division in your show one of the gear companies will not sponsor it. This leaves you with supplement companies that are already being pulled in 100 directions.
Whether your a beginner or an elite lifter I think it would be fun to compete raw(belt only) in a geared meet and see how many people you can outlift. Even if you came in 5th out of say 20, that means you outlifted 15 guys that were wearing suits and shirts.
PowerCoach
10-13-2010, 11:01 AM
I have several raw lifters who won't compete in the raw only meets for reasons as Ryan alluded to...they like to compete against the gear guys for fun.
They know they typcially won't win a 3 lift meet, but they also aren't concerned about the trophy...having said that, some of these guys (not including bench) are still qualifying for worlds, etc..or winning.
On the opposite spectrum, I do have one lifter who is raw only, tested only, and holds several state records, but I can't get him onboard with competing in anything other than those types of meets...much to my dismay..lol
In the end, I tend to view contests as competing against yourself, pushing beyond where you've been before to be your best, on that day....how you stack up against the others is icing on the cake.
rinse
10-13-2010, 11:33 AM
The name of this thread is what's wrong with powerlifting.
robert da strongman
10-13-2010, 11:53 AM
In the end, I tend to view contests as competing against yourself, pushing beyond where you've been before to be your best, on that day....how you stack up against the others is icing on the cake.
that's truth right there
so...
so far everyone is happy with the current "layout" of PL meets then?
robert da strongman
10-13-2010, 12:02 PM
so...
so far everyone is happy with the current "layout" of PL meets then?
the gear and numerous feds turned me away from pl'ing.
Diabetic Muscle
10-13-2010, 01:25 PM
the gear and numerous feds turned me away from pl'ing.
This to me is one of the biggest problems out there. I'm trying to find meets to lift in and the rules and memberships are so varied it's just dumb. I mean we do this for fun and I understand it cost money to put these meets on, I don't want to have to spend $250 to compete in 2 meets because they are different feds. I would also like to see more comps in general.
rinse
10-13-2010, 01:33 PM
The federation card thing you have in the US is dumb. The way PL is now in the US the meet promotors should just get a entry-fee and that's it. No fed cards and bullshit. International, atleast in the WPC this is how things work and it works pretty good.
Ryan Bracewell
10-13-2010, 02:21 PM
The federation card thing you have in the US is dumb. The way PL is now in the US the meet promotors should just get a entry-fee and that's it. No fed cards and bullshit. International, atleast in the WPC this is how things work and it works pretty good.
For almost every federation for every sport related to weight training is this way. You have to buy a federation card each year, and you have to pay a meet fee for every contest. Since is part of the reason why i have not done a PLing contest yet. With the exception of WABDL meets(which I dont like), there is only one meet a year in houston usually. Im not going to pay for a fed card, meet fee, then travel expenses just for fun.
crashcrew56
10-13-2010, 03:02 PM
Raw is much easier and cheaper, I think that's why that side of the sport is starting to grow again. I think a larger emphases on raw lifting will help the sport out on all sides, it'll help to bring more people into the sport. I even think it'll help the geared side grow too, because there will be some new guys being introduced into the sport, and then they might start to gain an interest into geared lifting too
As a gear whore, I am all for the growth of raw powerlifting.
I believe the reason there are 60 different feds goes far beyond the gear, if it were the only reason then we would only have the IPF, APF, and some raw federation. A lot of it comes from egos, and grudges. Ernie Frantz made a lot of enemies.
old man dave
10-13-2010, 03:10 PM
I enjoy raw lifting personally because i am a body building convert. The meets i have competed in have a good mix of raw and equipped lifters. I enjoy watching a 600+ shirted bench knowing that most of these guys cant push 405 in the gym raw.
If powerlifting would do away with all the different federations it might bring more credability to the sport. Amatuer bodybuilding with NPC seems to be doing fine. Look how much interest is on the boards about the Nationals this weekend, but if you set a world record in your powerlifting federation nobody knows.
100% agree about all the feds. (kinda the same topic)
PLing should be more like BBing in that regard. NPC then IFBB. I know there are a few other BBing feds out there but no where near what PLing is like. Then you break that down into weight classes, then even further into age groups (police and fire, military).... ugh!
I could get a record this weekend if I just find the right fed, equip, age, weight, oh yeah and I have blue eyes!
This really seems to be the largest deterrent in the game.
rinse
10-13-2010, 03:53 PM
For almost every federation for every sport related to weight training is this way. You have to buy a federation card each year, and you have to pay a meet fee for every contest. Since is part of the reason why i have not done a PLing contest yet. With the exception of WABDL meets(which I dont like), there is only one meet a year in houston usually. Im not going to pay for a fed card, meet fee, then travel expenses just for fun.
People in Europe has figure this out and I think federation cards is a thing in the past for every fed other than IPF. With the different feds the meet directors has just figured out that it will be better for the lifters but also for them(more people competing at their meets). I was actually surprise about this in a good way the first time I competed in the WPC.
Jon Buettner
10-18-2010, 11:00 PM
I am from the same town as Ryan Kennelly but dont live there anymore but have some mutual friends tell me that the reason why Kennelly has waited so long to go after the RAW world record was because their wasn't any money in it. He said he make more money lifting with shirt. Don't know if more money has come available recently but he said after this last meet went bad he is going to attempt the record again in early spring.
On a side note, the guy is a local legend in our home town up in washington. Imagine walking into the most corporate Gold's Gym around with elevator music playing in background and everytime you come to train they have a special bench for you in the corner and they change the music to loud death metal music ignoring all the old people bitching. That is what happens when he shows up to train each day. I have never seen a corporate gym like that cater to one person.
Ryan Bracewell
10-19-2010, 12:26 PM
What i dont get is why guys lift in tested meets when they use PED's? why not just lift in untested meets. By doing so your not admitting your using, your just lifting against the strongest guys in the world.
As for Raw meets, I think I am doing a raw APF meet in December if schedule permits. If so I will give some updates on training and the meet itself. I think i can break the raw 308 squat and deadlift record.
crashcrew56
10-19-2010, 01:42 PM
What i dont get is why guys lift in tested meets when they use PED's? why not just lift in untested meets. By doing so your not admitting your using, your just lifting against the strongest guys in the world.
As for Raw meets, I think I am doing a raw APF meet in December if schedule permits. If so I will give some updates on training and the meet itself. I think i can break the raw 308 squat and deadlift record.
I never understood that either, even they wanted to compete in single-ply, there are so many feds out there, it's not hard to find what your looking for. I guess that's the good thing about having so many feds.
I am from the same town as Ryan Kennelly but dont live there anymore but have some mutual friends tell me that the reason why Kennelly has waited so long to go after the RAW world record was because their wasn't any money in it. He said he make more money lifting with shirt. Don't know if more money has come available recently but he said after this last meet went bad he is going to attempt the record again in early spring.
On a side note, the guy is a local legend in our home town up in washington. Imagine walking into the most corporate Gold's Gym around with elevator music playing in background and everytime you come to train they have a special bench for you in the corner and they change the music to loud death metal music ignoring all the old people bitching. That is what happens when he shows up to train each day. I have never seen a corporate gym like that cater to one person.Cool info thanks!
rinse
10-19-2010, 03:36 PM
What i dont get is why guys lift in tested meets when they use PED's? why not just lift in untested meets. By doing so your not admitting your using, your just lifting against the strongest guys in the world.
As for Raw meets, I think I am doing a raw APF meet in December if schedule permits. If so I will give some updates on training and the meet itself. I think i can break the raw 308 squat and deadlift record.
What kind of records? The alltimes are pretty high...
Ryan Bracewell
10-19-2010, 04:08 PM
What kind of records? The alltimes are pretty high...
The world records are out of my reach, but the american records for APF are actually pretty low(assuming the list they have up is correct)
Full meet open 308 records
squat 572
bench 412.5
deadlift 638
total 1496
I was amazed at how low these are but im assuming its because most top lifters go geared. I dont own a shirt or squat suit so figured I would go all raw if I did the meet and im pretty sure I could break everyone of those records today if my shoulder held up.
Ryan Bracewell
10-19-2010, 04:16 PM
Doing some comparisons at powerlifting watch and APF site and there seems to be some discrepancy of records.
old man dave
10-21-2010, 01:40 PM
Hey Ryan i may be wrong but i think Jon Grove has squatted well over 800 raw in the APF. Not sure about a record.
Ryan Bracewell
10-21-2010, 02:32 PM
Not sure what to think, guess I need to call them to verify. I can not find Jon Grove on any record in any open division for APF. The one thing that makes me think the records I found are legit is because all the ones from my weight class are from this year.
http://www.worldpowerliftingcongress.com/
very bottom of the page click "records".
that opens up a new window and you can pick the fed: wpc, apf etc.
Ryan Bracewell
10-21-2010, 02:40 PM
http://www.worldpowerliftingcongress.com/
very bottom of the page click "records".
that opens up a new window and you can pick the fed: wpc, apf etc.
ya, that's where I have been looking and got the numbers I listed above. I did find the meet where Jon squat 810 raw but it was with the SPF, not APF. looks like he does most of his geared meets with APF. Whats odd is even SPF does not have his 810 raw squat listed on their records list.
and this is why I dislike the choice of 1000 federations...
old man dave
10-23-2010, 08:42 AM
You are correct about Jon. He is the APF state chairman so i thought his lifts were APF.
old man dave
10-23-2010, 08:45 AM
http://www.worldpowerliftingcongress.com/
very bottom of the page click "records".
that opens up a new window and you can pick the fed: wpc, apf etc.
These numbers are listed in KG not pounds.
Ryan Bracewell
10-23-2010, 10:00 AM
These numbers are listed in KG not pounds.
Not sure if that is a question or if you are just telling tjoe that, but you are correct.
The world records are out of my reach, but the american records for APF are actually pretty low(assuming the list they have up is correct)
Full meet open 308 records
squat 572
bench 412.5
deadlift 638
total 1496
I was amazed at how low these are but im assuming its because most top lifters go geared. I dont own a shirt or squat suit so figured I would go all raw if I did the meet and im pretty sure I could break everyone of those records today if my shoulder held up.wow..that is low...i'm pretty confident i can do 2 of those lifts myself.....
LilMendy
10-24-2010, 10:34 PM
People in Europe has figure this out and I think federation cards is a thing in the past for every fed other than IPF. With the different feds the meet directors has just figured out that it will be better for the lifters but also for them(more people competing at their meets). I was actually surprise about this in a good way the first time I competed in the WPC.
Just to let you know, the WPC/APF/AAPF are all one huge federation!
WPC-World Powerlifting Congress- World/National/International Meets
APF- American Powerlifting Federation(State Meets, Non Tested)
AAPF- Amateur American Powerlifting Federation.( State Meets, Tested)
When I promote meets, I promote APF/AAPF
Yes there are a lot of federations...we all have different rules. It would be easier if there was more consistency with in powerlifting, but people like to choose!
Shawna Mendelson
rinse
10-25-2010, 08:02 AM
Shawna: I know. But there's a lot of different feds in the US just to let you know... And in most if I'm not mistaken you have to buy a fed card to compete in comps under that particular fed.
It would be easier if there was more consistency with in powerlifting, but people like to choose!
Shawna MendelsonI agree, but the problem seems to come up when they have TOO MANY choices.
It would be great if there were 4 choices:
Raw - tested and non
Equipped - tested and non
That's it.
I don't even care for the age classes so much. I mean if it's a big meet and there is a strong 19 year old and strong 20 year old it seems crazy that they can both get 1st place.
Weight classes make sense to me though since the more weight anyones frame has the better the leverage and hopefully the more muscle he/she would be carrying.
I do not think it will ever change at this point though. There are SO MANY feds it would be like asking some of them to just go away or merge with others... Can't imagine the "heads" of those feds would like that idea so much.
Diabetic Muscle
10-25-2010, 09:27 AM
I agree, but the problem seems to come up when they have TOO MANY choices.
It would be great if there were 4 choices:
Raw - tested and non
Equipped - tested and non
That's it.
I don't even care for the age classes so much. I mean if it's a big meet and there is a strong 19 year old and strong 20 year old it seems crazy that they can both get 1st place.
Weight classes make sense to me though since the more weight anyones frame has the better the leverage and hopefully the more muscle he/she would be carrying.
I do not think it will ever change at this point though. There are SO MANY feds it would be like asking some of them to just go away or merge with others... Can't imagine the "heads" of those feds would like that idea so much.
I like this idea alot. Maybe a single ply and open division.
crashcrew56
10-25-2010, 02:43 PM
Here's something I don't really understand, the submasters class, there is really no need for a submasters
I like this idea alot. Maybe a single ply and open division.I wouldn't even go that far. I mean if you're going to use a shirt... find one that has a "good groove for you" and have at it. If you're going to go single ply... just go raw. Then you have poly, denim, canvas.... WTF? I say Raw, or equipped (whatever ply/material works for you).
Here's something I don't really understand, the submasters class, there is really no need for a submastersExactly! I know my meet coming up is no big deal and there won't be 100 competitors or anything but that's why I picked open. I could've done Sub Masters but I'd probably be the only one! Bringing home a little trophy means very little as it is, but not beating anyone for it is even worse!
old man dave
10-25-2010, 07:08 PM
The APC did not allow open back shirts or shirts with a cut collar. A shirt is a shirt allow them all or none.
AussieMuscle
11-25-2010, 06:13 AM
The world records are out of my reach, but the american records for APF are actually pretty low(assuming the list they have up is correct)
Full meet open 308 records
squat 572
bench 412.5
deadlift 638
total 1496
I was amazed at how low these are but im assuming its because most top lifters go geared. I dont own a shirt or squat suit so figured I would go all raw if I did the meet and im pretty sure I could break everyone of those records today if my shoulder held up.
Those figures can't be right? They are very low.
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