Guys < 45 & Estrogen -> cutting up quads?

[sassy69]

I often notice that the masters classes of guys (esp >50) have comparable upper bodies - in size & detail, as the younger guys, but their legs start to show softer than the rest of their bodies. Obviously this is due to the hormonal change of natural test production dropping and estrogen increasing in proportion. I almost feel bad for these guys because its pribably something they never had to deal w/ before (whereas women have to deal w/ it until they hit 50s...).

Do you guys in that boat have any way of dealing w/ it? For ex, do you increase your AIs or have to make appropriate changes in diet & training, maybe more cardio to cut up more?

Let's assume we're talking about a 45 yr old guy w/ a PL background,, history of cycling and good mass but just has a helluva time getting his quads conditioned.

Also is PCT important to your ongoing ability to deal w/ the increased estrogen state? I.e. it beomes more important to do a good PCT than when you're younger or should you just stay "on" / bridge?

[clarkf]

I would have to guess your refeering to Natural guys over 50 correct? Im 29 so I guess I cant really speak for the guys over 50 but, Im not sure why age matters so much. Assuming your on synthetic test, despite your age, your going to have a good bit of estro floating around. So you would need to use AI to combat this. Why not just increase AI closer to show time or switch to a more "powerful" AI. like going from arimidex to letro maybe.

[Bryan Hildebrand]

something I have taken note of on a similar note, is the lack of mas, comparatively to the rest of their physique, of quads and triceps. not sure if it is training related due to pain/arthritis in elbows and knees or if its simply oversight? interesting question sas.

[s2h]

i will say the reason you see less lower body mass in "older" BB is because of injuries...or the potential threat of them...i'm over 40 and dont squat or hack squat...due to a dead L5 that bulges..i just can tbe compresed and be able to walk the next day...then again i have altered my training to work around this..as far as pct...i dont think there is any guys over 50 that would need to pct...at 50 there most likely isnt anything left in the tank...as far as AI's...they can be used just like anyone at any age...i wont say that older guys need a more or less AI's...i would train a older guy with a PWL background and quad conditioning probs the same as a younger one for the most part...alot of older guys are easier to get grainy and hard because of there muscle maturity..even if there high in the bf% range to start there's more quality to work with underneath....

[musclemilf]

I often notice that the masters classes of guys (esp >50) have comparable upper bodies - in size & detail, as the younger guys, but their legs start to show softer than the rest of their bodies. Obviously this is due to the hormonal change of natural test production dropping and estrogen increasing in proportion. I almost feel bad for these guys because its pribably something they never had to deal w/ before (whereas women have to deal w/ it until they hit 50s...).

Do you guys in that boat have any way of dealing w/ it? For ex, do you increase your AIs or have to make appropriate changes in diet & training, maybe more cardio to cut up more?

Let's assume we're talking about a 45 yr old guy w/ a PL background,, history of cycling and good mass but just has a helluva time getting his quads conditioned.

Also is PCT important to your ongoing ability to deal w/ the increased estrogen state? I.e. it beomes more important to do a good PCT than when you're younger or should you just stay "on" / bridge?

I just had this same conversation with my friend (45 yo BB) last night. He's been a cycler for years, but has been inconsistent with PCT (more "no PCT" than "on PCT"). Other than the obvious gyno issue, he can't produce the cuts in his otherwise massive legs to place higher in contests. My theory is the inconsistent PCT caused some sort of hormonal imbalance and maybe resulted in stubborn fat storage in the thigh and glute area.

I'm hoping Atilla or Heavyiron can shed some light here. Thanks for posting, Sassy.

[Baldiewonkanobi]

Sassy...outstanding thread. Thanx.

I don't know where to start. I come from a 6' Ecto point of view so take that in mind. I have arthritis in both knees (3 total Meniscus surgeries) my ankles, hips, toes and also have gout. My back is just fine. I presented myself at the Nationals this year considerably depleated and cortisol ridden. I did it for my children and their wishes because their Mom was terminal at the time and they sought strength and persevearance in me. (she died less than a week later). Don't take my marginal appearance there into consideration.

I am very disappointed in the hardness and leg cuts in the Over 60s. The top 5 have leg size/sweep but look like butter. NONE HAVE GLUTES OR HAM/GLUTE TIE INS. The Over 70s lack it all. I had the cuts only. Others can comment on the Over 40/50 men.

When you hit 60 ones entire Bodybuilding psyche seems to change. We avoid pain and look for shortcuts we think our time on the planet has now afforded us. A rite of passage if you will. Well that (shortcuts) does not work in my opinion. One must crawl under the fucking squat rack, Smith or Hammer verti squat and move the weight...period. I can not speak for those with spinal injury. We must feed the beast and get naps when and where ever.

I use Test for my Andropause. I have also only used Gasparis NXT (now banned about everywhere) to control my slightly elevated Estroidols. I gave my wife Arimidex every day for her breast cancer. I could not consider its use for me for that reason. Freaked me out. I must now consider minimal Arimidex. I have one of her bottles. Does Estrogen have anything to do with leg size/cuts? How could it? Does the bodys chemistry change above/below the navel? Sans spinal injury SQUAT/PRESS heavy. EAT/SLEEP and bear with the pain. I trained from age 12 to 22 and then from 40 to now at 70....always in PAIN. Pain is my VALIDATION. Being Ecto is my curse.


Baldie

[axioma]

1. Definately think that AI is important, not so much as a PCT, but as in insurance policy to keep from storing the adipose on the quads.

2. Genetics: some guys just have great quad seperation. Even when they bulk, they might gain fat in their asses, bellies and upper back, but not on the thighs.

3. Lack of mass is definately an injury (or fear of, as s2h said) issue: I have a ruptured disc, and 1.5" difference in femur length that affect my lifting. I warm up, stretch, ice...do all those things and then I STILL have to PSYCHE myself to MAN up.

4. I do find it easier to maintain the legs cuts after achieving them...I think my personal quad quality will come with time. I would like to see some suggestions as to where the estradiol levels should be...or if anyone has found a particular AI or SERM to be more beneficial than another for this particular issue.

[sassy69]

Thanks for posting guys - I don't think its necessarily that this happens to natty guys. If you look at the >50 category at most any reasonably big show, you'll notice that the guys are on par w/ the younger guys in size - both in upper & lower, but the lower is not nearly as defined as the upper anymore. IMO, granted I'm not a doc, but I don't see this as much different from when women hit menopause and their natural hormone balance shifts in favor of testosterone - I would expect comparable to happen as guys' natural test production drops and estrogen becomes relatively more present. Further, if a guy has never experienced this before (since its age related), he probably wouldn't be completely aware of it and would up his AIs or diet / cardio / training protocol accordingly. Women have to do this to deal w/ the lower half cutting up prior to menopause, so why wouldn't similar be required of men at the point where their natural hormone balance starts to shift. Frankly I don't think it takes that much estro to screw up a guy's expected progress so even a little shift would produce a change in results if nothing else in the guy's typical protocol changed.

Does this make sense? I understand the injury thing, etc. but when you look at the pictures, you can see comparable muscle size (I guess I might need to dig up something that illustrates) but the cut quality is significantly different when you get into the older age ranks. And specifically in the lower body - not really even apparent in the upper body unless the guy just blew his prep in general.

[axioma]

I'm with you, however I don't think it pertains to the top 3 at bigger masters shows. Durlan Castro has some of the craziest thighs I have seen. Hey, durlan, you there then chime in...

[sassy69]

1. Definately think that AI is important, not so much as a PCT, but as in insurance policy to keep from storing the adipose on the quads.

2. Genetics: some guys just have great quad seperation. Even when they bulk, they might gain fat in their asses, bellies and upper back, but not on the thighs.

3. Lack of mass is definately an injury (or fear of, as s2h said) issue: I have a ruptured disc, and 1.5" difference in femur length that affect my lifting. I warm up, stretch, ice...do all those things and then I STILL have to PSYCHE myself to MAN up.

4. I do find it easier to maintain the legs cuts after achieving them...I think my personal quad quality will come with time. I would like to see some suggestions as to where the estradiol levels should be...or if anyone has found a particular AI or SERM to be more beneficial than another for this particular issue.

I think this might be the primary issue...

[sassy69]

I'm with you, however I don't think it pertains to the top 3 at bigger masters shows. Durlan Castro has some of the craziest thighs I have seen. Hey, durlan, you there then chime in...


Definitely there are guys who it doesn't even matter what age they are, but it just seems like a tangible trend when you watch the masters guys come out and the watery legs becomes more and more apparent if you look. The size is there, the cuts & size are comparable to the younger guys on the upper body, but the legs all of a sudden start to get soft. It is very reminiscent of women trying to get their bottom half cut.

[HammerStrength12]

What is considered an estradiol level where this could happen?

Actually, all my life my upper body has been really lean, always had abs, but it's always been a lot more defined than my lower body (I have a much easier time putting muscle on my legs though, weird). My estradiol levels are on the higher end of normal, but my testosterone/free test is also very high as well (off cycle #s). I'm on synthetic t4 as well as prescribed. Could any of this have anything to do with that?

[s2h]

I just had this same conversation with my friend (45 yo BB) last night. He's been a cycler for years, but has been inconsistent with PCT (more "no PCT" than "on PCT"). Other than the obvious gyno issue, he can't produce the cuts in his otherwise massive legs to place higher in contests. My theory is the inconsistent PCT caused some sort of hormonal imbalance and maybe resulted in stubborn fat storage in the thigh and glute area.

I'm hoping Atilla or Heavyiron can shed some light here. Thanks for posting, Sassy.at his age and being a longtime user..trying to pct could be his problem...he need to get off cycle BW and determine if TRT is a needed option..leggs could be a training or diet issuse also...

[s2h]

What is considered an estradiol level where this could happen?

Actually, all my life my upper body has been really lean, always had abs, but it's always been a lot more defined than my lower body (I have a much easier time putting muscle on my legs though, weird). My estradiol levels are on the higher end of normal, but my testosterone/free test is also very high as well (off cycle #s). I'm on synthetic t4 as well as prescribed. Could any of this have anything to do with that?just curious why the t4 script?

[s2h]

Definitely there are guys who it doesn't even matter what age they are, but it just seems like a tangible trend when you watch the masters guys come out and the watery legs becomes more and more apparent if you look. The size is there, the cuts & size are comparable to the younger guys on the upper body, but the legs all of a sudden start to get soft. It is very reminiscent of women trying to get their bottom half cut.my quads are my 2nd best bodypart..but i have always had lean cut quads...with good seperation..genetics ya maybe..i think it goes back to training in yrs past also...

[HammerStrength12]

just curious why the t4 script?

extreme case of hypo, you've asked me that like 50 times lol

[HeavyDutyGuy]

I dont know. I never was blessed with lean naturally cut legs, even in my teens, twenties, etc. They are probably leaner now than in my thirties, when I ate too much and did no cardio- ever. Arms are way different, I can have striations at 260, even when the rest of me is fat. Watery I think comes with steroid use. I have afriend who is 49 and just won his Natural pro card (twice- won two divisions at the same show) and his legs were hard- not real huge, but then he always lagged in arms and legs he says. Abs are worse than legs in this regard IMO, along with lower pecs- my problem areas. Maybe AI's are a good idea, even when not on anything? I dunno.

[Bryan Hildebrand]

clearly, I am far from what anyone would call lean, but I am really vascular. the most vascular bodypart for certain are my quads. now my ass on the otherhand... I have a powerlifting squatters butt.

[Hammerfit]

This is very interesting thread for me as it hits close to home. I have really done a lot of research trying to find the solution. I played football in high school and had a scholarship at UGA only to have my ACL ruptured in the summer camp. So I had "athletic legs" not big but strong. Back then no one had big legs, they were just strong and fast. Hell I played MLB at 185! I only bring this up for the muscle memory theory, which I think has a lot to do with this. If you had big muscular cut up quads at 25 then had a layoff and came back 10 years later and trained hard and ate right you should still be able to have the same. I always had big biceps and remember doing curls when I was 5! So guess what I have decent biceps at 55. The other thing that that indeed effects this is the estrogen levels. I never did AAS until this past year and even then it was HRT doses, after I had my total T levels checked to find out it was at 180! And at 180 I wasnt that bad off. Good upper body, good abs, etc. Well you know how test and estrogen work, if one is low so is the other so I had it checked just for grins (and out of pocket) since Endo docs could care less about that! The test came back un-readable! Maybe the test was flawed who knows Im not paying for another one, it is what it is. I will say this past year after getting on the test and taking arimidex (1 cc EOD) my leg development has improved. Still not up to par with upper body but drastically improved from last year. I have visible definition now between the 3 quad muscles and good separation in quad/ham from the side. No where near what I need but I feel like I am making improvements.
However......let me say this about that, I only started back training legs like I do upper body 10-12 months ago and only recently started training them insanely. So being the guinea pig that I am I will have to say 2 things: yes you must have your hormones at least somewhat adjusted to a level where you at least have a chance but more importantly, if you want separation in your legs at over age 50 you are going to have to train much harder and smarter than a 30 year old. I know that to be factual. I have experienced major growth in the last 4 months from simply getting under a fucking heavy ass squat bar and dealing with my fear that my surgically repaired knees are going to hold up. Setting up for a 400 lb squat without an ACL is interesting to say the least. But you have to ask yourself how bad do I want my legs to grow? I do it every time I get under the bar, I look in the mirror and ask myself "you want big legs mutherfucker"? Then squat! Its scary I know, some may think its stupid, I know there are others on here that also have devastating leg injuries. No 2 people are alike and everyone has to deal with things on their own terms. I'm just saying it is like most everything else in life; it's all relative. Just how bad do you want something? You can train insane with injuries you just have to use your head too. Sorry for the long post, this one holds close to me, I got to go squat heavy tomorrow! I'll watch my Branch Warren video and go get after it!

[Baldiewonkanobi]

Swut i'm taking about Hammer. The average man tears his ACL (your case) or has 3 meniscus surgeries/advanced arthritis and is told he needs knee replacements (my case) and they settle down in front of the TV for life with a brewskie and Doritos. For some fucked up reason Bodybuilders evaluate their hormonal balance and take action. Its a call to WAR. They carefully wrap their knees and crawl under 400 pounds of cold iron and gut it out until they pop a capillary or two in the eye. My son, not a Bodybuilder but a coach at age 50, had his ACL removed and a grafted patella strand put in it place. He was told to chill....yeah the son of Baldie?? No fucking way. You can catch him today running up and backwards on the wet grass of a soccer field or the basketball court.

Keep this thread alive. AI and SERM are (were) names I never heard until today...believe it or not. Interesting.

Baldie

[axioma]

I'm with you Hammer, just persistance and patience make a huge difference w/legs.

I am still interested in the estrogen thing though, because some guys just seem to hold fat in that area, especially mid-thigh to groin.

I remember RazorRipped said it was estrogen related...

[HeavyDutyGuy]

Genetics has to factor in in here too. How many times have you seen a fat person who has lean and sometimes even vascular legs. ..I have, not often, but it does happen..then there's those of us who can have ripped abs and not much leg seperation.

[esplendido]

Hammer, I can relate! 5 months after reattachment surgery and slowly working the legs a little heavier each week, the predominant thing in my mind is two-fold: gotta squat to build thighs and will I tear them off again doing so. I haven't squatted yet, and couldn't at all the last 5 years because of arthritis, but I'm planning on starting in the Spring, when I have nearly a year of recovery under my belt. I will, until then, continue leg pressing, extensions and curls with weight that stresses but doesn't push.

All that being said, I've prepared a couple of guys for shows who have "estrogen" legs, as I like to call them, whose genetic fat distribution is more like a womans than a mans. First, they have to over-diet to bring them in and second, AI's did help, especially in the last 2 weeks. And I mean like 25mg/day of aromasin for 14 days, plus a diuretic the last 24 hours. Both of these men were in their late forties.

I have genetically lean legs, but I'm an ectomorph at 6'-4". I had separation in my quads when I weighed 295 with a 42" waist.

[s2h]

extreme case of hypo, you've asked me that like 50 times loli have a extreme case of bad memory..lol..

[freebirdmac]

To go on a tangent here, does my menopausal state mean I'll quit accumulating fat on my legs and have an easier time leaning them up (once I actually accumulate muscle)? I do think I am having an easier time now gaining muscle than I did just a year ago.

[sassy69]

To go on a tangent here, does my menopausal state mean I'll quit accumulating fat on my legs and have an easier time leaning them up (once I actually accumulate muscle)? I do think I am having an easier time now gaining muscle than I did just a year ago.

Probably musclemilf can give a better explanation - but its hard to say in what timeframe (this yr vs next yr) when you're talking about a process that takes a long time to switch "off" completely. But say you had a full hysterectomy, then the only source of estrogen you have is that coming from the aromatization of the adrenal androgens. So in the sense of reduced impact of estrogen, yea, but not necssarily an increase in your testosterone (if you remain natural,also including any HRT in the form of e.g. topical test - which would also contribute to the aromatized estrogen totals). To a degree you need some estrogen to help build muscle due to the presence of water, etc. so that would take away from your abilty to increase muscle mass compared to pre or peri-menopause. And also just general additional limitation on promotion of lean muscle mass due to on-going reduction in natural human growth hormone and the other destructive aspects of aging.

So I think the 'gain' is in having to fight less to drop the bodyfat that woudl've been promoted by ovarian estrogen process than an improvement in muscle growing ability.

[HammerStrength12]

Hammer, I can relate! 5 months after reattachment surgery and slowly working the legs a little heavier each week, the predominant thing in my mind is two-fold: gotta squat to build thighs and will I tear them off again doing so. I haven't squatted yet, and couldn't at all the last 5 years because of arthritis, but I'm planning on starting in the Spring, when I have nearly a year of recovery under my belt. I will, until then, continue leg pressing, extensions and curls with weight that stresses but doesn't push.

All that being said, I've prepared a couple of guys for shows who have "estrogen" legs, as I like to call them, whose genetic fat distribution is more like a womans than a mans. First, they have to over-diet to bring them in and second, AI's did help, especially in the last 2 weeks. And I mean like 25mg/day of aromasin for 14 days, plus a diuretic the last 24 hours. Both of these men were in their late forties.

I have genetically lean legs, but I'm an ectomorph at 6'-4". I had separation in my quads when I weighed 295 with a 42" waist.

Injuries have definitely played a part in it for me. Back and knee injuries have forced me to take time off of leg training and cardio many times.

My estradiol last time I tested was 39 pg/ML. Do you think it's worth going on a low dose of aromasin or arimidex? Or would it not be worth it because of the risks associated with AIs? Testosterone and free tesoterone were around 750ng/dL and 4% last time I checked.

[freebirdmac]

Probably musclemilf can give a better explanation - but its hard to say in what timeframe (this yr vs next yr) when you're talking about a process that takes a long time to switch "off" completely. But say you had a full hysterectomy, then the only source of estrogen you have is that coming from the aromatization of the adrenal androgens. So in the sense of reduced impact of estrogen, yea, but not necssarily an increase in your testosterone (if you remain natural,also including any HRT in the form of e.g. topical test - which would also contribute to the aromatized estrogen totals). To a degree you need some estrogen to help build muscle due to the presence of water, etc. so that would take away from your abilty to increase muscle mass compared to pre or peri-menopause. And also just general additional limitation on promotion of lean muscle mass due to on-going reduction in natural human growth hormone and the other destructive aspects of aging.

So I think the 'gain' is in having to fight less to drop the bodyfat that woudl've been promoted by ovarian estrogen process than an improvement in muscle growing ability.

Interesting and thanks!. It has been impossible to find much info on this subject. The one related study I did find seemed to imply that in later peri and for 5 years post, mass gains could be more difficult versus 5+ post.

I'll take the easier lower body fat loss though.

Yeah, I'm all natural.

[sassy69]

Interesting and thanks!. It has been impossible to find much info on this subject. The one related study I did find seemed to imply that in later peri and for 5 years post, mass gains could be more difficult versus 5+ post.

I'll take the easier lower body fat loss though.

Yeah, I'm all natural.


From some recent discussions w/ musclemilf, I think there is a different sort of fat depositing from aromatizing estrogen sources than from ovarian estrogen. If you think about it, ovarian estrogen promotes bodyfat in the mid-section / hips / thighs as a survival tactic to both add additional padding / protection for a developing fetus as well as acts as an "energy store" in case of famine. If we consider the estrogen produced via aromatization, there wouldnt' be the same need for this particular survival strategy (as aromatized estrogen implies either "man" or "post-menopausale female" and not "child-bearing years female"), thus a different for of fat depositing is involved. I hope musclemilf can add to this - since its not the same fat depositing action, the usual approaches women have used to deal w/ it may not be optimal.

[Hammerfit]

Hammer, I can relate! 5 months after reattachment surgery and slowly working the legs a little heavier each week, the predominant thing in my mind is two-fold: gotta squat to build thighs and will I tear them off again doing so. I haven't squatted yet, and couldn't at all the last 5 years because of arthritis, but I'm planning on starting in the Spring, when I have nearly a year of recovery under my belt. I will, until then, continue leg pressing, extensions and curls with weight that stresses but doesn't push.

All that being said, I've prepared a couple of guys for shows who have "estrogen" legs, as I like to call them, whose genetic fat distribution is more like a womans than a mans. First, they have to over-diet to bring them in and second, AI's did help, especially in the last 2 weeks. And I mean like 25mg/day of aromasin for 14 days, plus a diuretic the last 24 hours. Both of these men were in their late forties.

I have genetically lean legs, but I'm an ectomorph at 6'-4". I had separation in my quads when I weighed 295 with a 42" waist.


Sounds like a smart approach. I basically did the same thing. Before doing real squats I spent months building up my qlutes and ham strength on the leg press and V Squat machines. The arthritis thing I have learned to ignore, I have had it so long it's just a part of life for me and I tell it to go fuck itself! I even had a surgery called a Cynovectomy (I know that's not the right spelling) done back by Dr Jack Hughston himself, I think it was in 1980. I was the first one they tried that on. His theory was that the arthritis lived in the Cyno fluid in the joint and if they took the rubbery like membrane out the arthritis would go with it. How fucked up is that, and by the person who basically was the mastermind behind arthoroscopic surgery! That one took along time to get over. I've had it all done at least once. The other side had a sport knee replacement 6 years ago and it is twice as strong as the other side. I wish I had both done at the same time. The best advice I can give you to rehab surgical repaired knees (I have had maybe a dozen incl scopes) is to learn your pain, there is good pain and there is bad pain. Once you know the difference you can train to you get to the good pain, then back off just a tad. I am big proponent of High Intensity training and going to failure but in the case of repaired joints you have to be a little more careful going to failure.

[esplendido]

Injuries have definitely played a part in it for me. Back and knee injuries have forced me to take time off of leg training and cardio many times.

My estradiol last time I tested was 39 pg/ML. Do you think it's worth going on a low dose of aromasin or arimidex? Or would it not be worth it because of the risks associated with AIs? Testosterone and free tesoterone were around 750ng/dL and 4% last time I checked.

Your estradiol is high. The high norm is 25pg/ml. I think it would behove you to use exemastane (aromasin) at 5-10mg/day. You'll blow a lot of water and increase your free test quite a bit.

[s2h]

Injuries have definitely played a part in it for me. Back and knee injuries have forced me to take time off of leg training and cardio many times.

My estradiol last time I tested was 39 pg/ML. Do you think it's worth going on a low dose of aromasin or arimidex? Or would it not be worth it because of the risks associated with AIs? Testosterone and free tesoterone were around 750ng/dL and 4% last time I checked.aromisan at 12.5mg eod to start....

[musclemilf]

From some recent discussions w/ musclemilf, I think there is a different sort of fat depositing from aromatizing estrogen sources than from ovarian estrogen. If you think about it, ovarian estrogen promotes bodyfat in the mid-section / hips / thighs as a survival tactic to both add additional padding / protection for a developing fetus as well as acts as an "energy store" in case of famine. If we consider the estrogen produced via aromatization, there wouldnt' be the same need for this particular survival strategy (as aromatized estrogen implies either "man" or "post-menopausale female" and not "child-bearing years female"), thus a different for of fat depositing is involved. I hope musclemilf can add to this - since its not the same fat depositing action, the usual approaches women have used to deal w/ it may not be optimal.

Estrone (E1) goes through a conversion process (androstenedione) from the adrenals and some from the gonads and is stored in the fat cells. After menopause, the ovaries are producing very little estradiol (E2) as compared to child bearing years, but still remains active to some degree up until old age. (Estriol (E3) is made from the placenta is only dominant during pregnancy, so it isn't relevant here). post menopausal women, estrone plays a dominant role in a woman's body...but it's stored in fat cells. Makes you wonder how much of this change is correlated to the list of complaints about women in their 40's "losing their shape". Obviously, lifestyle and genetics are a factor too.

I hope this helps.

[HammerStrength12]

aromisan at 12.5mg eod to start....


Your estradiol is high. The high norm is 25pg/ml. I think it would behove you to use exemastane (aromasin) at 5-10mg/day. You'll blow a lot of water and increase your free test quite a bit.

Thanks guys. Would a doctor prescribe it at those levels? Or is it something I'd have to get on my own?

Also, would formastane be effective? I hear aromasan can really crush the libido.

Any idea why the estradiol might be high? I also thought high estradiol was associated with low testosterone, but both my test and free test are reallly high.

[s2h]

Thanks guys. Would a doctor prescribe it at those levels? Or is it something I'd have to get on my own?

Also, would formastane be effective? I hear aromasan can really crush the libido.

Any idea why the estradiol might be high? I also thought high estradiol was associated with low testosterone, but both my test and free test are reallly high.in terms of trt scripts most dco's will prescribe a-dex...your test(E/C) is causing your E2 to rise...aromisan is fine..just like any AI you can take too much and crush your E2...its something along w/ BW you can refine to the correct amount...trail and error is all part of it...

[HammerStrength12]

in terms of trt scripts most dco's will prescribe a-dex...your test(E/C) is causing your E2 to rise...aromisan is fine..just like any AI you can take too much and crush your E2...its something along w/ BW you can refine to the correct amount...trail and error is all part of it...


Cool - sorry, stupid question, what's E/C?

[s2h]

Cool - sorry, stupid question, what's E/C?enanthate/cypionate...no questions are stupid unless asked 50 times..got ya..lol...

[HammerStrength12]

enanthate/cypionate...no questions are stupid unless asked 50 times..got ya..lol...

Dunno if you asked it 50, but must be at least 5. HI pointed that out after the 3rd time I think haha.

Thanks for the help.

[s2h]

Dunno if you asked it 50, but must be at least 5. HI pointed that out after the 3rd time I think haha.

Thanks for the help.he likes to look back at my repeated posts..my memeory suks to begin with..and the 100's of Q's and pm's all blend together at times...its all good...

[sassy69]

Estrone (E1) goes through a conversion process (androstenedione) from the adrenals and some from the gonads and is stored in the fat cells. After menopause, the ovaries are producing very little estradiol (E2) as compared to child bearing years, but still remains active to some degree up until old age. (Estriol (E3) is made from the placenta is only dominant during pregnancy, so it isn't relevant here). post menopausal women, estrone plays a dominant role in a woman's body...but it's stored in fat cells. Makes you wonder how much of this change is correlated to the list of complaints about women in their 40's "losing their shape". Obviously, lifestyle and genetics are a factor too.

I hope this helps.

Yep, you state it better than I do - its interesting tho :)

[s2h]

one thing to keep into consideration...many "older" BB's that have overall solid muscle quality and conditioning...have been on long term pharm grade HGH programs..plays a big role in that quality lower half...

[Baldiewonkanobi]

one thing to keep into consideration...many "older" BB's that have overall solid muscle quality and conditioning...have been on long term pharm grade HGH programs..plays a big role in that quality lower half...

Agree....but you must add in INTENSE leg training and MOST coggers don't quite go there.


Baldie

[Hammerfit]

Agree....but you must add in INTENSE leg training and MOST coggers don't quite go there.


Baldie

Well said

[axioma]

On a similiar note: back in the early 80's is was common practice to drain the fluid off your knee. Had this done several times while playing football. Result: dry joints leading to the arthritis I have today.

[sassy69]

On a similiar note: back in the early 80's is was common practice to drain the fluid off your knee. Had this done several times while playing football. Result: dry joints leading to the arthritis I have today.


Ewwww and OWWWWWW!

[s2h]

On a similiar note: back in the early 80's is was common practice to drain the fluid off your knee. Had this done several times while playing football. Result: dry joints leading to the arthritis I have today.thats a solid point...didnt think about that one...and not to get into a "back in the day" story...but players played hurt more and didnt have the medical attention they do today...i played thru 2 concussions that at todays guidelines would have put me out for 2 weeks each..

[s2h]

Agree....but you must add in INTENSE leg training and MOST coggers don't quite go there.


Baldiesorry baldie..but "cogger" is not a term i would give myself..lol..

[Hammerfit]

thats a solid point...didnt think about that one...and not to get into a "back in the day" story...but players played hurt more and didnt have the medical attention they do today...i played thru 2 concussions that at todays guidelines would have put me out for 2 weeks each..

Ha, that's exactly right, if you passed the what's your name test you were good to go we didnt call them concussions it was "you just got your bell rung"

[heavyiron]

My estradiol last time I tested was 39 pg/ML. Do you think it's worth going on a low dose of aromasin or arimidex? Or would it not be worth it because of the risks associated with AIs? Testosterone and free tesoterone were around 750ng/dL and 4% last time I checked.


Were you on anything during that draw?

It looks like you have slightly elevated aromatase activity to me. I would use a low dose AI and retest.

[OLDSCHOOL51]

You will find the biggest reason is that the older men do not squat amd those that still do will have good looking legs.im 52 and i squat with smith machine and my legs still look good.this is my opinion only

[HammerStrength12]

Were you on anything during that draw?

It looks like you have slightly elevated aromatase activity to me. I would use a low dose AI and retest.

Nothing hormonal, nope.

[HeavyDutyGuy]

I just cut up my thighs, took a razor and...

[Rick Prince]

I'm 48. Diet right all year and you will have less probs when it comes time to lean out.

Nice quad seperation, Mike. How far out is your last leg workout before a show?

[joedemarco]

I'm 48. Diet right all year and you will have less probs when it comes time to lean out.

Wheels look good, Big Mike! Do you hit the squat rack on a regular basis?

[bryantone]

When I try to figure my progress on lagging body parts, I use pics as comparisons to help me set a goal. I do need certain info to help compare. For instance.. I thought my arm size was decent compared to Kevin's even though he has about a inch larger. He is a competitor and I have no desire to be one. THEN I find out he is almost a half foot shorter than me and alot less BF. So he has hugh arms compared to mine:mad:. Right now my most lagging part is my legs. I have to work around 3 lower back surgeries(last one 2009). They have come up in about 3/4 inch in about 3 months with the help of some good advice from Ax, Kevin, and Mactech. This estroidal thread has cought my attention because when I had bloodwork done 2 years ago, my estroidal was 14.2* considered slightly high according to the printout, and my test was 275. It didnt show a test breakdown, and it showed nomal range for my age (52 at the time). I will have more bloodwork done in Jan when my insurance alows it. Big Mike, how tall/weight are you? Legs look good size . I do like the looks of Girly Muscles better though:drool:.

[bryantone]

I am 1-2 inches taller. I would like to weigh 200lbs with 9-10% BF. I have to drop down to about 175- 180lbs to get rid of the BF. Right now I am at 198lbs. I dont respond well to keto (major energy loss at work), so I am eating fairly clean 2500-2800 cals, 180-225 carbs, 150+ protein, fats?. was wondering if estrogen is causing me to hold on to the BF around my waist.

[heavyiron]

Nothing hormonal, nope.
You have good T levels for being off. You would likely benefit from a low dose AI if you want to control E2.

[bryantone]

4 billion posts since 2009....you should of answered my question before I posted it @ 10000 posts a second. (I just pulled the 10000 number out of my ass, so dont get your calculator out to check the math);)

[THEVMAN]

i will say the reason you see less lower body mass in "older" BB is because of injuries...or the potential threat of them...i'm over 40 and dont squat or hack squat...due to a dead L5 that bulges..i just can tbe compresed and be able to walk the next day...then again i have altered my training to work around this..as far as pct...i dont think there is any guys over 50 that would need to pct...at 50 there most likely isnt anything left in the tank...as far as AI's...they can be used just like anyone at any age...i wont say that older guys need a more or less AI's...i would train a older guy with a PWL background and quad conditioning probs the same as a younger one for the most part...alot of older guys are easier to get grainy and hard because of there muscle maturity..even if there high in the bf% range to start there's more quality to work with underneath....

I am 53 and I really dont think estrogen decides to attack the lower body ----- naturals at any age know that Quads, and striated glutes are tough to get and the last area for fat to come off. I dont think us older guys always focus on conditioning to drop down in the 4% BF range or lower - and from years of doing it, Thyroid hormones get shot - and after 6 months of dieting it is more challenging. I agree with the post about injuries - that is what I have heard.

[THEVMAN]

You will find the biggest reason is that the older men do not squat amd those that still do will have good looking legs.im 52 and i squat with smith machine and my legs still look good.this is my opinion only

Awesome - I am doing the smith mach squats as well - protects the lower back some with the added stabilization!:yep:

[KyMuscle]

When I started competing, in my late 30s, i just could not get my quads separated. One of the more experienced competitors at my gym suggested switching my cardio from treadmill and stepper to the stationary bike.

I can't explain the "science" behind it, but it worked. And once I got separated quads, they stayed separated. I'm about as bulked up now as ever, but my quad separation remains intact.

Hope that's helpful.