Humalog, Essential Aminos and Waxy maize

[jacshelb]

So, I finally got around to trying, basically, Milos' method of pre-workout Humalog with essential aminos and fast acting carb. Let me back up just a bit first and give my brief history with insulin.

I first tried Humalog just a few months ago when off cycle- just to see what I could do with it. 1-3 IU post workout with carbs and whey. I was very very insulin sensitive at the time having just come off a long keto diet and was slowly introducing carbs back into my diet. The results I got were not good. I grew some, but mostly I held excess water and blurred out, looked to add fat quickly. With this in mind, I quit after about 3 weeks or so of experimenting like that.

I decided to try again when on cycle: Tren, test prop, m-drol, EQ. This time I did not put on as much fat, but still put on some and held water. Then, I heard about Milos' new method and gave it a try. But, I didn't have any essential amino powder. So, I used whey protein taken a half hour before the workout and then drank a mix of waxy maize and creatine during the workout. Immediately my results improved. Instead of being watery I actually looked more lean the next day. I actually seemed to lose a bit of fat as well-or just wasn't gaining fat like I was using the other method, who knows. Either way the results were better and I had some EAAs on the way.

I ordered straight EAA powder from bulknutrition as it was the best price. Let me tell you, this stuff tastes like Devil piss, but is helped with some chocolate flavoring from my favorite bulk protein place. I used 4 heaping tea spoons of eaa powder, a good heaping scoop of waxy maize and 10 grams of creatine and drank it before and throughout the workout. I used about 4-5 IU of humalog. Holy Shit! The pumps are fucking crazy doing this! I can't believe the difference! I don't really know if there is any huge difference in actual gains for eaa powder vs. whey, but my trained muscles look full a few hours after training vs. a couple days after as they would with no insulin.

To me, I'm still not satisfied with my gains- who ever is? But, I will say this: Two weeks before my cycle began I weighed 192 lbs at about 9-10% bf and now 7 weeks into it I weigh a solid 220 (using and anti-e to keep water weight down even) at around 12% bf. I know for certain I've gained 5-6 lbs of fat and I always hold about 6-8 lbs of water anti-e or no. But, that still leaves around 16 lbs of muscle put on and it really shows. I'll try to get a pic taken tomorrow and show you guys the before and after.

I've lost a lot of definition, but I still have the top two faint row of abs and no "moon face" or anything like that.

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents so far on this topic.

[NPCKnight]

my 2 cents is if you want to do Milos' protocol...you should do it CORRECTLY.

Milos used creatine, glutamine(which i agree u dont need), BCAA, and EAA in specific amounts. He also used gatorade powder(1tsp).

HE NEVER USED WAXY MAIZE.

He used Vitargo. And then he modified it to use just plain DEXTROSE @ 35g per shake which is 11tsp.(3 2/3 tbsp)---or 3 tbsp and 2 tsp. OR to make it even easier he has modified it to use just gatorade 20oz original gatorade. it has 35g of sugars in it and is perfect. Uses 1 20oz gatorade per shake(3 shakes).


Waxy maize is bullshit and Milos has never EVER used it for this reason. Vitargo was the best and first choice and then Milos went to dextrose due to the cost and he found it did the job. The only situation that would call for Vitargo is 80 or 100 or 150g of carbs AT ONCE. it will be easier on ur stomach since the gastric emptying is so fast.

I admire what you are trying....but PLEASE why do it at all if youre going to half ass it?

[skinny]

my 2 cents is if you want to do Milos' protocol...you should do it CORRECTLY.

Milos used creatine, glutamine(which i agree u dont need), BCAA, and EAA in specific amounts. He also used gatorade powder(1tsp).

HE NEVER USED WAXY MAIZE.

He used Vitargo. And then he modified it to use just plain DEXTROSE @ 35g per shake which is 11tsp.(3 2/3 tbsp)---or 3 tbsp and 2 tsp. OR to make it even easier he has modified it to use just gatorade 20oz original gatorade. it has 35g of sugars in it and is perfect. Uses 1 20oz gatorade per shake(3 shakes).


Waxy maize is bullshit and Milos has never EVER used it for this reason. Vitargo was the best and first choice and then Milos went to dextrose due to the cost and he found it did the job. The only situation that would call for Vitargo is 80 or 100 or 150g of carbs AT ONCE. it will be easier on ur stomach since the gastric emptying is so fast.

I admire what you are trying....but PLEASE why do it at all if youre going to half ass it?
x2 waxy maize is shit for this protocol. Dextrose is a supperior source for insulin loading. You may also want to give your diet a look over. Make sure you are not taking in any fats for approx 3 hours after injection.

[jacshelb]

Oh boy. So, is anyone that is "objective" going to comment? :D

Seriously though, why do you think waxy maize bad for this protocol?

[NPCKnight]

SERIOUSLY

because it doesnt SPIKE insulin levels high like dextrose or Vitargo...
The whole point of Milos' theory is hyperemia and manipulating nutrient supercompensation when you spike your insulin quickly and HIGH to drive all the nutrients into the 'wasted' open muscle cells.

Its not about being objective. Waxy maize is bullshit. How about you shouldnt use it because it doesnt work like it SAYS? Just because you arent going hypo or going into a coma does not mean it is working the way Milos' protocol was designed for/to do.

[jacshelb]

Lol. You are passionate about your carbs, aren't you? Ok, I see your point. My point is that I want to be able to control the response by the amount of insulin injected, not the type of carb. Now, I know that one could say "lower your humalog dose and take the higher glycemic carb". Well, I've gone both routes and I simply feel the best for my workout doing it this way vs. a higher glycemic carb source. There's not the unpredictable blood sugar crash this way and that's important to me- especially during the workout.

If I was trying to do Milos' way without the insulin I'd be right on the same page with you because you are totally right about waxy maize- it doesn't spike the insulin levels as needed in that case.

[almard]

I agree with you guys.....you need to use dextrose or Vitargo, not waxy maize..milos use fast Insuline spike like dexterose, vitargo...ect for a reason..... doit safe or you will end down grade.....

[jacshelb]

Here's a pic from the end of Jan. and one from today side by side. I apologize upfront for the extremely shitty quality. I took them myself in my bathroom facing a mirror... not the best conditions. But, you can see the improved size for sure over that time. Now, granted I have been bulking ever since Feb 1st. I weighed about 192-195 in the first pic and about 220 today in the second.

And, if anyone is wondering, my avatar pic is from last year while training/dieting for a contest- tan and all weighing about 205 but more lean/ better lighting etc.

[NPCKnight]

I dont know why you are using insulin yet. You are fucking with a pretty serious drug and dont have the development yet I would like to see.

That being said...at least you are running it correctly. But as we have all stated over and over....Milos' protocol is a science....and you have serious flaws in your carb source. Also why would u only use EAA and not BCAA? If i had to choose one to leave out....I might leave EAA out. But I wouldnt do this unless I had both.

[BIGSNOR]

its harder to fuckup insulin than you might think. Did you know palumbo had a guy doing a ketogenic diet and unknown to dave the kid was using like 12 or 15 IU of SLIN the ENTIRE PREP! he didnt die, came into the show peeled as fuck, but did admit he felt awful during his prep.....the body has many failsafe counter regulatory mechanisms, in this instance gluconeogenesis made up for the lack of carbs. Ease up on the dude for usin waxy.

I personally DO use gatorade with my slin, but I hate it cuz the shit is just bloating as hell. Vitargo has been show to have superior gastric emptying capabilities so if one went that route I could see why.

[NPCKnight]

Ease up? I didnt cane him. I explained its garbage. No one should ease up on the fact that waxy maize doesnt do what its supposed to do.

[Johnny Phenomenon]

Insulin should be the last drug most competitors end up using. I just don't see why using something so potentially detrimental to your system would be beneficially for non-professional reasons. Anyway, not my place to tell someone what to do/not to do. I'm just saying, you are NOT following Milo's protocol. Following protocol on something like T3, insulin etc. is following it to the EXACT measurement, timing etc. There are protocols in place for a reason. Getting all pissy because someone with a bit of experience with the drug warns you on a forum is ridiculous. Nobody wants to see someone who is not ready for a drug hurt themselves because they wanted to play catch-me-up with a dangerous drug. Otherwise, good luck.

[BoneBz]

I have no experience and very little knowledge about slin. However I am curious as to what kind of gains can one expect on a protocol such as Milo's over a period of time?

[NPCKnight]

Well lets just say Ive done his protocol several times WITHOUT any slin. And it works.

[almard]

its harder to fuckup insulin than you might think. Did you know palumbo had a guy doing a ketogenic diet and unknown to dave the kid was using like 12 or 15 IU of SLIN the ENTIRE PREP! he didnt die, came into the show peeled as fuck, but did admit he felt awful during his prep.....the body has many failsafe counter regulatory mechanisms, in this instance gluconeogenesis made up for the lack of carbs. Ease up on the dude for usin waxy.

I personally DO use gatorade with my slin, but I hate it cuz the shit is just bloating as hell. Vitargo has been show to have superior gastric emptying capabilities so if one went that route I could see why.

Ok so is that guy training with Palumbo? Is he with Milos? don't you think milos go for dextrose or whatever for a reason?.... we are not attacking the guy, Nour even saying waxy is shit...I'm just saying he should go for the program as milos recomanded.......Dextrose, vitargo, Glucose are always better for fast Insuline spick and it's goes right a way from your blood steam......Insuline is the best to gain mass and get lean If you know how to use it and most Important you need to be in the safe side....

[-BLP-]

I take insulin after workout eat whatver on way n crash I look like crap off season but I get huge faster n my choice is size , Insulin is cheap n beat any deca or qv dosage

[jacshelb]

Lol. This whole thread is making me laugh now. Guys, you gotta lighten up! Bodybuilding is a hobby, not a strict religion. I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular, but it's a little humorous how dramatic this simple thread turned into. I posted this info simply for the purpose of saying- here's what I did, here's what happened. I don't see how something like that turns into a protocol pissing match or warnings of doom. So, I have to laugh a bit considering.

Trust me, NPCKnight, I hear your points. You have science to back up where you are coming from and I get it. I'll definitely be adding in some bcaas. But, as far as the whole waxy vs. dextrose thing, I've explained that. I'm making a choice based on experience at this point, albeit limited I'll admit. But, thanks for the clarification because it gives me some alternatives to test out in the future. Seriously, I appreciate that.

As far as having a certain level of development before using a chemical, now that is, as some would say a "gray area." Number one, we're not factoring in genetics here, so we never know where a person is coming from. Looking at my pics I know I don't have anything special and have a long long way to go. But, just to assuage concerns I'll say that I put on roughly 50 lbs of mostly muscle before ever touching a chemical of any kind and up till this current cycle have only tried very small amounts of basic stuff (test and tren) for short cycles here and there. Not that that is anything spectacular, but I'm probably farther along (for me) than I look because I started with jack shit! I've got many years training, dieting, and studying under my belt and am hoping to finally put it all together to start getting where I want to go. When I started back into lifting in 2001 I weighed 142 lbs at 15% bf at 6'2" and looked very sickly. I went to around 190 on my own steam and the last chunk I've gained using aas over the last couple years puts me at a current offseason weight of 220 lbs at 12%-13% bf and working my way up. (I've been heavier, but sloppier!)

I appreciate the advice and have taken all suggestions into consideration. I'll be honest, I like the results I'm getting. I've gained 28 lbs in the last couple months- yes some fat, some water, but I'm very pleased overall and have learned a bit along the way. I'll try your suggestion and give dextrose another try at some point. I bet you are right and that it works best as far as maximum results. I just want to be very careful about going hypo during my workout and will have to adjust amount of insulin to offset to be on the safe side.

As far as the dangers of insulin some talked about- From what I understand, a small dose of insulin (like 4 IU) three times per week with a workout is not going to effect natural output by any amount- especially if you don't do it continually. In essence, it is far less "suppressive" to the body's natural feedback than test and other aas. But, if anyone has info to the contrary I'd love to hear it. I'm still new to using insulin and want to learn all I can.

You gotta understand though, when someone presents advice in an over-the-top manner as if there's only one way to skin a cat, their way, I can't resist laughing a bit. There's always a different way to do things and never 1 "right way" for everyone. Trust me on that. Things are always changing. Pretty soon there'll be a slight change to Milos' protocol- just as the whole pre-workout vs. post thing came about. And, if we get too "rigid" in our thinking, we'll miss a new opportunity- as I'm sure we all know deep down. Think about if someone had said "Hey, I'm just some guy out of the blue and I say to use Humalog with x, y, and z pre-workout!" a couple years back. People would have laughed him out of his socks. But, damn does it work so much better than the old protocol that was floating around the boards for so long. I'm not saying I'm that guy! But, they are out there. So, don't get to be too strict in the dogma of bodybuilding.

[jacshelb]

I take insulin after workout eat whatver on way n crash I look like crap off season but I get huge faster n my choice is size , Insulin is cheap n beat any deca or qv dosage

That's a wild method! How's the proportion of fat to muscle would you say? And, what kind of IUs are we talking about here?

[jacshelb]

Getting all pissy because someone with a bit of experience with the drug warns you on a forum is ridiculous.

Never happened my friend. I think you misread what I posted. But, it's easy to do that on the internet.

Also, in my first post I stated "I finally got around to trying, basically, Milos' method of pre-workout..." I said it that way intentionally because I realized I wasn't doing it exactly as Milos recommends. And, I didn't care. lol. I still don't. But, I learned something. Having a good laugh when things get too serious isn't getting pissy, it's taking it with perspective. The differences just simply aren't that dire, though additional input is certainly helpful!

[almard]

Lol. This whole thread is making me laugh now. Guys, you gotta lighten up! Bodybuilding is a hobby, not a strict religion. I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular, but it's a little humorous how dramatic this simple thread turned into. I posted this info simply for the purpose of saying- here's what I did, here's what happened. I don't see how something like that turns into a protocol pissing match or warnings of doom. So, I have to laugh a bit considering.

Trust me, NPCKnight, I hear your points. You have science to back up where you are coming from and I get it. I'll definitely be adding in some bcaas. But, as far as the whole waxy vs. dextrose thing, I've explained that. I'm making a choice based on experience at this point, albeit limited I'll admit. But, thanks for the clarification because it gives me some alternatives to test out in the future. Seriously, I appreciate that.

As far as having a certain level of development before using a chemical, now that is, as some would say a "gray area." Number one, we're not factoring in genetics here, so we never know where a person is coming from. Looking at my pics I know I don't have anything special and have a long long way to go. But, just to assuage concerns I'll say that I put on roughly 50 lbs of mostly muscle before ever touching a chemical of any kind and up till this current cycle have only tried very small amounts of basic stuff (test and tren) for short cycles here and there. Not that that is anything spectacular, but I'm probably farther along (for me) than I look because I started with jack shit! I've got many years training, dieting, and studying under my belt and am hoping to finally put it all together to start getting where I want to go. When I started back into lifting in 2001 I weighed 142 lbs at 15% bf at 6'2" and looked very sickly. I went to around 190 on my own steam and the last chunk I've gained using aas over the last couple years puts me at a current offseason weight of 220 lbs at 12%-13% bf and working my way up. (I've been heavier, but sloppier!)

I appreciate the advice and have taken all suggestions into consideration. I'll be honest, I like the results I'm getting. I've gained 28 lbs in the last couple months- yes some fat, some water, but I'm very pleased overall and have learned a bit along the way. I'll try your suggestion and give dextrose another try at some point. I bet you are right and that it works best as far as maximum results. I just want to be very careful about going hypo during my workout and will have to adjust amount of insulin to offset to be on the safe side.

As far as the dangers of insulin some talked about- From what I understand, a small dose of insulin (like 4 IU) three times per week with a workout is not going to effect natural output by any amount- especially if you don't do it continually. In essence, it is far less "suppressive" to the body's natural feedback than test and other aas. But, if anyone has info to the contrary I'd love to hear it. I'm still new to using insulin and want to learn all I can.

You gotta understand though, when someone presents advice in an over-the-top manner as if there's only one way to skin a cat, their way, I can't resist laughing a bit. There's always a different way to do things and never 1 "right way" for everyone. Trust me on that. Things are always changing. Pretty soon there'll be a slight change to Milos' protocol- just as the whole pre-workout vs. post thing came about. And, if we get too "rigid" in our thinking, we'll miss a new opportunity- as I'm sure we all know deep down. Think about if someone had said "Hey, I'm just some guy out of the blue and I say to use Humalog with x, y, and z pre-workout!" a couple years back. People would have laughed him out of his socks. But, damn does it work so much better than the old protocol that was floating around the boards for so long. I'm not saying I'm that guy! But, they are out there. So, don't get to be too strict in the dogma of bodybuilding.

Of course Bodybuilding is a hobby, but when it comes to some one life, it's not hobby anymore. yes the protocol change as the Science goes on, but the basic dosen't change.... I think you look good, and yes you will be fine If you stick to 4Iu doses for what ever you do, anything more, then you will exprince what Insuline it's!!........by the way milos pre workout Insuline is the shit, I grow as weed when I followedas he sayed...:)

[NPCKnight]

Trust me, NPCKnight, I hear your points. You have science to back up where you are coming from and I get it. I'll definitely be adding in some bcaas. But, as far as the whole waxy vs. dextrose thing, I've explained that. I'm making a choice based on experience at this point, albeit limited I'll admit. But, thanks for the clarification because it gives me some alternatives to test out in the future. Seriously, I appreciate that.

As far as having a certain level of development before using a chemical, now that is, as some would say a "gray area." Number one, we're not factoring in genetics here, so we never know where a person is coming from. Looking at my pics I know I don't have anything special and have a long long way to go. But, just to assuage concerns I'll say that I put on roughly 50 lbs of mostly muscle before ever touching a chemical of any kind and up till this current cycle have only tried very small amounts of basic stuff (test and tren) for short cycles here and there. Not that that is anything spectacular, but I'm probably farther along (for me) than I look because I started with jack shit! I've got many years training, dieting, and studying under my belt and am hoping to finally put it all together to start getting where I want to go. When I started back into lifting in 2001 I weighed 142 lbs at 15% bf at 6'2" and looked very sickly. I went to around 190 on my own steam and the last chunk I've gained using aas over the last couple years puts me at a current offseason weight of 220 lbs at 12%-13% bf and working my way up. (I've been heavier, but sloppier!)

I appreciate the advice and have taken all suggestions into consideration. I'll be honest, I like the results I'm getting. I've gained 28 lbs in the last couple months- yes some fat, some water, but I'm very pleased overall and have learned a bit along the way. I'll try your suggestion and give dextrose another try at some point. I bet you are right and that it works best as far as maximum results. I just want to be very careful about going hypo during my workout and will have to adjust amount of insulin to offset to be on the safe side.

As far as the dangers of insulin some talked about- From what I understand, a small dose of insulin (like 4 IU) three times per week with a workout is not going to effect natural output by any amount- especially if you don't do it continually. In essence, it is far less "suppressive" to the body's natural feedback than test and other aas. But, if anyone has info to the contrary I'd love to hear it. I'm still new to using insulin and want to learn all I can.

You gotta understand though, when someone presents advice in an over-the-top manner as if there's only one way to skin a cat, their way, I can't resist laughing a bit. There's always a different way to do things and never 1 "right way" for everyone. Trust me on that. Things are always changing. Pretty soon there'll be a slight change to Milos' protocol- just as the whole pre-workout vs. post thing came about. And, if we get too "rigid" in our thinking, we'll miss a new opportunity- as I'm sure we all know deep down. Think about if someone had said "Hey, I'm just some guy out of the blue and I say to use Humalog with x, y, and z pre-workout!" a couple years back. People would have laughed him out of his socks. But, damn does it work so much better than the old protocol that was floating around the boards for so long. I'm not saying I'm that guy! But, they are out there. So, don't get to be too strict in the dogma of bodybuilding.


Bro...with all due respect..youve got some shit flat wrong.
Very careful going hypo during your workout????? MILOS PROTOCOL IS FOR A PRE, DURING, AND POST WORKOUT SHAKE WITH 35G OF SUGARS IN EACH.
YOU ARE AFRAID OF GOING HYPO HOW? three shakes x 35g quick carbs is 105g of carbs....youre only doing 4IU...
(have extra quick sugar on hand just in case!)


If you really want to get down to things heres the truth. YOU ARENT DOING MILOS PROTOCOL AS HAS BEEN STATED. IM NOT SURE YOU TRULY EVEN KNOW WHAT MILOS PROTOCOL IS. PRE WORKOUT SLIN I GUESS IS WHERE THE MAGIC IS AT.
AS FAR AS NUTRITION PROTOCOL OF 3 SHAKES.....YOU STILL DONT HAVE THE CONCEPT RIGHT. MILOS WOULD HAVE USED WAXY AND ADVOCATED ITS USE. I MEAN SHIT...HE ADVOCATED VITARGO...DEXTROSE...AND GATORADE. ITS NOT LIKE HE LEFT OUT WAXY OR FORGOT ABOUT IT. IT OBVIOUSLY DIDNT FIT THE BILL SINCE MILOS IS VERY SCIENTIFIC AND WAXY DOESNT DO WHAT HE NEEDS IT TO.

4IU A DAY NOT CAUSING HARM TO NATURAL OUTPUT OF THE PANCREAS. DO YOU THINK THAT IS WHAT WE ARE WARNING YOU OF? HINT....NOBODY IS WORRIED ABOUT YOUR PANCREAS SHUTTING DOWN OR OUTPUT BEING EFFECTED. WE ARE TELLING YOU TO BE CAREFUL USING THE MOST DANGEROUS BODYBUILDING DRUG OUT THERE...INSULIN. IT CAN DROP YOU, PUT YOU IN A COMA, EVEN KILL YOU.
I PERSONALLY THINK MORE EXPERIMENTING IS NEEDED BEFORE USING INSULIN. THE DRUG LADDER SHOULD NOT BE TEST, TREN, SLIN.

PRETTY SOON THEYLL BE A SLIGHT CHANGE TO MILOS' PROTOCOL? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT...NOTHING THAT WILL STRAY FAR ENOUGH TO BE TOUTED AS A DIFFERENCE. FROM DAY ONE HIS FIRST SHAKE CONTAINED 30-50G CARBS, 2ND 30-50G CARBS, AND 3RD 50-75G CARBS IF MEMORY SERVES CORRECT. HE USED VITARGO.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAS CHANGED?
NOTHING EXCEPT HE HAS FOUND YOU A WAY TO SAVE MONEY ON VITARGO AND INSTEAD SPEND IT ON DEXTROSE...OR GATORADE WHICH BOTH HAVE 35G SERVINGS...SO THE CARBOHYDRATES HAVE NOT CHANGED.
HE HAS ALSO MARKETED HIS PRE/DURING/POST SUPPLEMENTS WHICH HE FORMULATED FROM HIS ORIGINAL BLUEPRINT.

I hope you use up or throw away the rest of your waxy.....buy a couple tubs of vitargo OR a 15lb bag of NOW dextrose and or buy gatorade 20oz by the 24 pack and really take this on the way it should be taken on.
good luck and get back to us.

[-BLP-]

That's a wild method! How's the proportion of fat to muscle would you say? And, what kind of IUs are we talking about here?


yeah indeed it wild but hgh made u insulino-resistant so u can take more hehe, the body adapt fast to insulin , my trick is to up the dosage real slowly so slow, that u dont have the side effect , when too stomach bloated looking, i reduce or stop.. 10 to 20 ui ED off season.. in my head 1ui equal 15 pounds so if you want to be 300 pounds you need 20 ui twice a day , slin n hgh is the way to go over the 260 pounds league at least for me it was

the ratio fat muscke i have no idea, sure worth the sacrifice... evrything seem to kick stronger , steroid, supplement , whatver in my mind is all synergistic

[almard]

yeah indeed it wild but hgh made u insulino-resistant so u can take more hehe, the body adapt fast to insulin , my trick is to up the dosage real slowly so slow, that u dont have the side effect , when too stomach bloated looking, i reduce or stop.. 10 to 20 ui ED off season.. in my head 1ui equal 15 pounds so if you want to be 300 pounds you need 20 ui twice a day , slin n hgh is the way to go over the 260 pounds league at least for me it was

the ratio fat muscke i have no idea, sure worth the sacrifice... evrything seem to kick stronger , steroid, supplement , whatver in my mind is all synergistic

Why not to stay lean and take it slow? you will always lose muscle when you come to lose the fat what matter you do. Geting lean is the best way to approach your progresses.

[NPCKnight]

yeah indeed it wild but hgh made u insulino-resistant so u can take more hehe, the body adapt fast to insulin , my trick is to up the dosage real slowly so slow, that u dont have the side effect , when too stomach bloated looking, i reduce or stop.. 10 to 20 ui ED off season.. in my head 1ui equal 15 pounds so if you want to be 300 pounds you need 20 ui twice a day , slin n hgh is the way to go over the 260 pounds league at least for me it was

the ratio fat muscke i have no idea, sure worth the sacrifice... evrything seem to kick stronger , steroid, supplement , whatver in my mind is all synergistic

in your mind 1 iu = 15 lbs? if you want to be 300 lbs you need 20 iu? the problem is you are making up these things. you havent been 300 lbs have you? dont you see a problem here?
i wouldnt follow anything you are saying..and its not really responsible info youre dishing out.

[-BLP-]

in your mind 1 iu = 15 lbs? if you want to be 300 lbs you need 20 iu? the problem is you are making up these things. you havent been 300 lbs have you? dont you see a problem here?
i wouldnt follow anything you are saying..and its not really responsible info youre dishing out.

well at 18 ui i hit 270 31 dec 2008 end of year , was happy biggest i been , i was off season but not ridiculous , i dont make things up i know several 300 pounds BB and is what they do

i express my protocol , not many do what i do anw , u got a great physique cant say nothing against you , im no great genetic for me simple lot of slin , lot of hgh, lot of food and get bigger

[-BLP-]

Why not to stay lean and take it slow? you will always lose muscle when you come to lose the fat what matter you do. Geting lean is the best way to approach your progresses.

becuase i will compete 3 more years then be a nattie , mind as well be a freak now and take all the shortcut possible , i love off season look, my wife too ,stay lean and get bigger it the dogmatic , but i dont have a fortune first and the excessive discipline im not interested, im focus on diet, off season i powerlift n eat everything on sight , i max out a muscle milk jug every 2 days

[jacshelb]

yeah indeed it wild but hgh made u insulino-resistant so u can take more hehe, the body adapt fast to insulin , my trick is to up the dosage real slowly so slow, that u dont have the side effect , when too stomach bloated looking, i reduce or stop.. 10 to 20 ui ED off season.. in my head 1ui equal 15 pounds so if you want to be 300 pounds you need 20 ui twice a day , slin n hgh is the way to go over the 260 pounds league at least for me it was

the ratio fat muscke i have no idea, sure worth the sacrifice... evrything seem to kick stronger , steroid, supplement , whatver in my mind is all synergistic

Like I said, interesting to hear a different view on this. Sounds like you are doing it your way. All the best!

[jacshelb]

Of course Bodybuilding is a hobby, but when it comes to some one life, it's not hobby anymore. yes the protocol change as the Science goes on, but the basic dosen't change.... I think you look good, and yes you will be fine If you stick to 4Iu doses for what ever you do, anything more, then you will exprince what Insuline it's!!........by the way milos pre workout Insuline is the shit, I grow as weed when I followedas he sayed...:)

I hear what you are saying. Again, I really do appreciate the input. Even if I have a little bit of fun with debating it sometimes, I do take the subject matter itself seriously.

[jacshelb]

Bro...with all due respect..youve got some shit flat wrong.
Very careful going hypo during your workout????? MILOS PROTOCOL IS FOR A PRE, DURING, AND POST WORKOUT SHAKE WITH 35G OF SUGARS IN EACH.
YOU ARE AFRAID OF GOING HYPO HOW? three shakes x 35g quick carbs is 105g of carbs....youre only doing 4IU...
(have extra quick sugar on hand just in case!)


If you really want to get down to things heres the truth. YOU ARENT DOING MILOS PROTOCOL AS HAS BEEN STATED. IM NOT SURE YOU TRULY EVEN KNOW WHAT MILOS PROTOCOL IS. PRE WORKOUT SLIN I GUESS IS WHERE THE MAGIC IS AT.
AS FAR AS NUTRITION PROTOCOL OF 3 SHAKES.....YOU STILL DONT HAVE THE CONCEPT RIGHT. MILOS WOULD HAVE USED WAXY AND ADVOCATED ITS USE. I MEAN SHIT...HE ADVOCATED VITARGO...DEXTROSE...AND GATORADE. ITS NOT LIKE HE LEFT OUT WAXY OR FORGOT ABOUT IT. IT OBVIOUSLY DIDNT FIT THE BILL SINCE MILOS IS VERY SCIENTIFIC AND WAXY DOESNT DO WHAT HE NEEDS IT TO.

4IU A DAY NOT CAUSING HARM TO NATURAL OUTPUT OF THE PANCREAS. DO YOU THINK THAT IS WHAT WE ARE WARNING YOU OF? HINT....NOBODY IS WORRIED ABOUT YOUR PANCREAS SHUTTING DOWN OR OUTPUT BEING EFFECTED. WE ARE TELLING YOU TO BE CAREFUL USING THE MOST DANGEROUS BODYBUILDING DRUG OUT THERE...INSULIN. IT CAN DROP YOU, PUT YOU IN A COMA, EVEN KILL YOU.
I PERSONALLY THINK MORE EXPERIMENTING IS NEEDED BEFORE USING INSULIN. THE DRUG LADDER SHOULD NOT BE TEST, TREN, SLIN.

PRETTY SOON THEYLL BE A SLIGHT CHANGE TO MILOS' PROTOCOL? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT...NOTHING THAT WILL STRAY FAR ENOUGH TO BE TOUTED AS A DIFFERENCE. FROM DAY ONE HIS FIRST SHAKE CONTAINED 30-50G CARBS, 2ND 30-50G CARBS, AND 3RD 50-75G CARBS IF MEMORY SERVES CORRECT. HE USED VITARGO.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAS CHANGED?
NOTHING EXCEPT HE HAS FOUND YOU A WAY TO SAVE MONEY ON VITARGO AND INSTEAD SPEND IT ON DEXTROSE...OR GATORADE WHICH BOTH HAVE 35G SERVINGS...SO THE CARBOHYDRATES HAVE NOT CHANGED.
HE HAS ALSO MARKETED HIS PRE/DURING/POST SUPPLEMENTS WHICH HE FORMULATED FROM HIS ORIGINAL BLUEPRINT.

I hope you use up or throw away the rest of your waxy.....buy a couple tubs of vitargo OR a 15lb bag of NOW dextrose and or buy gatorade 20oz by the 24 pack and really take this on the way it should be taken on.
good luck and get back to us.

Let me get this straight... Now you are saying I should use waxy maize? Man, just make up your mind already.








































Jk. Seriously, I'm hearing all your points. Again, thanks for the input. You've got some valuable information there and I appreciate you sharing your experience and point of view. I'll let you know for sure how it goes as I'm gonna make the changes you suggested. Thanks again.

[jacshelb]

Well, I've tried it as close as I can get to what has been suggested. The only complaint I have is the same one that caused me to modify and deviate from Milos' protocol (for my needs) in the first place: the large amount of carbs in the three shakes- when it is dextrose or even waxy maize (I've tried it both ways)- caused me to crash and hard! Look, I don't know why this is. I don't understand it. But, I went through it before and that's why I went to waxy maize (less of an insulin spike) and less overal carb intake for this. I figured that I can always adjust upward from where I was. I have nothing against dextrose or any other carb source. But, I've got to use an amount of carbs that I feel comfortable with. I'm very carb sensitive and it seems when my insulin is spiked too hard all at once (or even over the course of 1.5 hrs) I crash pretty hard. It seems like the limit for me is about 70-80 grams of carbs total.

I'm not trying to start a whole debate on this again. But, I went through and read much of what Milos has had to say on this topic and even he says that the carb source is not super important unless you are using very large amounts at once and need the gastric emptying benefits of Vitargo. And, NPCknight, have you used pre-workout insulin before? If not, I can see why you are so focused on the natural insulin spike that dextrose provides. When taking in insulin with the carbs/aminos, you get a controllable insulin spike that is a bit different in nature than what comes from carbs alone. Again, no disrespect, I hear what you are saying about the importance of bcaas and I've made sure to add those in. And, I've got dextrose available- which I'm working with to find my "sweet spot" that I'm comfortable with.

Thanks guys for the thought provoking input. I've taken some good things away from this thread. But, I have to disagree with certain aspects of what some have written as not all of it works for me to a tee. I would recommend that anyone interested in this area of supplementation consider all possibilities, definitely start low and carefully and find what works for them. Try to keep an open mind, but always use your own discretion. Thanks again.

Jacob

[NPCKnight]

But, I went through and read much of what Milos has had to say on this topic and even he says that the carb source is not super important unless you are using very large amounts at once and need the gastric emptying benefits of Vitargo.
Jacob

You need to take a reading comprehension lesson then because he ONLY said that it does not matter between dextrose, gatorade, and vitargo. THATS IT. its not important BETWEEN them...

[jacshelb]

No, I get that. I don't agree that waxy maize is useless, but we're not going to see eye to eye on that, now are we? I've tried it your way, incorporated some of your ideas and thanked you for them. Now, I really am curious as to whether you've tried pre-workout insulin and what your experience was.

I think we could learn something from sharing our personal experiences with this. Notice anything that doesn't get talked about? Or have some insight from it that maybe we haven't already covered?

[RazorRipped]

I think we could learn something from sharing our personal experiences with this. Notice anything that doesn't get talked about? Or have some insight from it that maybe we haven't already covered?

Hold on, if we share our experiences here that don't have any scientific backing, we get labeled as broscience by a select few individuals on this board. Particularly one! The funny thing about that is when you view those select individuals avatars they look like they never trained in their lives. Basically look like dog shit, and still have the audacity to chastise bodybuilders. So who is right? The research that looks like shit and hasn't been able to apply his research into real world results, or the experimental bodybuilders that in 99% of the cases looked better than the researcher/scientific guru before they ever touched a weight?:D

[jacshelb]

Hold on, if we share our experiences here that don't have any scientific backing, we get labeled as broscience by a select few individuals on this board. Particularly one! The funny thing about that is when you view those select individuals avatars they look like they never trained in their lives. Basically look like dog shit, and still have the audacity to chastise bodybuilders. So who is right? The research that looks like shit and hasn't been able to apply his research into real world results, or the experimental bodybuilders that in 99% of the cases looked better than the researcher/scientific guru before they ever touched a weight?:D

Can I get an 'Amen'! That's a good point. There are some gurus who I have a lot of respect for: Milos, Dave, Author L. Rea and more. But, there are some guys I couldn't give two craps about that have big egos and that's about all!

Again, I know I'm nothing special body wise, that's for sure. But, I have worked hard, tried a lot of different things along the way.

[NPCKnight]

No, I get that. I don't agree that waxy maize is useless, but we're not going to see eye to eye on that, now are we? I've tried it your way, incorporated some of your ideas and thanked you for them. Now, I really am curious as to whether you've tried pre-workout insulin and what your experience was.

I think we could learn something from sharing our personal experiences with this. Notice anything that doesn't get talked about? Or have some insight from it that maybe we haven't already covered?

waxy maize is just plain old starch. youre right...it has value. it has nutritional content. it has calories and carbs but not the kind we want to be consuming intra or post workout. why would anyone pick anything inferior...in nutrition...in bodybuilding...in life?
its utterly ridiculous that you have 3 wonderful choices that ALL WORK yet you are still blind to the facts and using something that was a marketing scheme/lie and doesnt do what it says it does.

[NPCKnight]

if you are crashing hard after the workout then get some good nutrition lined up 30-45 min afterwards. like oats or a sweet potato to prevent a crash.

[jacshelb]

I don't crash hard at all if I limit the carb intake just a bit- even with dextrose. But, yeah, having some good food available is something I keep an eye toward. I hear what you are saying about waxy maize. I definitely won't be using it (alone anyway) without insulin and will be testing my results with dextrose over the next few weeks to see the impact. I really have nothing against any other carb source. The only reason I used waxy maize in the first place was to keep both the bloat down and because it didn't spike my insulin as hard. I wanted to be able to take in more carbohydrate with a manageable amount of insulin spike. But, results are results. And, if I see that dextrose is bringing better results after awhile, I'll make the adjustments necessary.

I'd really still like to hear about your personal experiences with this protocol when it comes to insulin use. It's the only area here we haven't really discussed. I'm just wondering things like: how does it affect the gains with it vs. with just the shakes? And, what would you say a minimum benificial dosage might be for someone who is fairly insulin sensitive? I have my own experiences to go on. But, you do seem to be really knowledgeable in this area and I'd love to hear your feedback on that aspect of it. Thanks again for the discussion so far. Some good info on this thread all in all.

[derekanthony]

I dont know why you are using insulin yet. You are fucking with a pretty serious drug and dont have the development yet I would like to see.

That being said...at least you are running it correctly. But as we have all stated over and over....Milos' protocol is a science....and you have serious flaws in your carb source. Also why would u only use EAA and not BCAA? If i had to choose one to leave out....I might leave EAA out. But I wouldnt do this unless I had both. oh god coming from the gu ru! lol let the kid do what he wants to do!

[derekanthony]

[quote=jacshelb;124306]Let me get this straight... Now you are saying I should use waxy maize? Man, just make up your mind already.
why are you listening to this kid he dosnet even show his face, he never won a show, never will never will be pro.... oh i forgot hes accomplished more then me lmao

come post on my thread bud learn some real info. not from some no name want to be trouble making punk 24 year old kid.....:D

[NPCKnight]

What is wrong with you Derek? Are you going to come here claiming you have degrees which Dave even mentioned you had none? Are you gonna tell the kid to shoot synthol everywhere? Im staying out of your thread in which you dont have the reading comprehension skills to answer questions being asked of you...so don't follow me around. Show my face? YOU KNOW WHO I AM and thats what matters here doesnt it fun boy? Remember when you were calling me about your fiance and asking to use my myspace account to stalk her? Poor guy...I actually felt sorry for you. I helped you out several times and got nothing for it. It was out of the kindness of my nature when all you did was promise me bullshit that you never came through on. You were never true to your word which is the most important thing in being a man. Derek would promise me all sorts of free shit for going out of my way to help him and I never received a thing.

Ya I havent won a show OR turned pro in the 2 yrs I have been competing....Im a failure! Derek you are damn lucky you cant get banned here...I suppose its kind of like a situation where parents cant just get rid of their own problem child. Anyways, you are nobody's idol and you are a smear to this board. This is probably also why when you got me banned for 2 weeks last week it only lasted half a day...because I AM NOT THE ONE MAKING TROUBLE.

..its not like Derek had much or any knowledge at the subject of hand. He is a mindless drone who repeats what he has been taught but still understands nothing except how to site inject. Derek you are a legend in your own mind! Now BACK TO THE THREAD.

[NPCKnight]

I don't crash hard at all if I limit the carb intake just a bit- even with dextrose. But, yeah, having some good food available is something I keep an eye toward. I hear what you are saying about waxy maize. I definitely won't be using it (alone anyway) without insulin and will be testing my results with dextrose over the next few weeks to see the impact. I really have nothing against any other carb source. The only reason I used waxy maize in the first place was to keep both the bloat down and because it didn't spike my insulin as hard. I wanted to be able to take in more carbohydrate with a manageable amount of insulin spike. But, results are results. And, if I see that dextrose is bringing better results after awhile, I'll make the adjustments necessary.

I'd really still like to hear about your personal experiences with this protocol when it comes to insulin use. It's the only area here we haven't really discussed. I'm just wondering things like: how does it affect the gains with it vs. with just the shakes? And, what would you say a minimum benificial dosage might be for someone who is fairly insulin sensitive? I have my own experiences to go on. But, you do seem to be really knowledgeable in this area and I'd love to hear your feedback on that aspect of it. Thanks again for the discussion so far. Some good info on this thread all in all.

Its good you have an open mind bro. I encourage you to experiment, I just want you to be very clear on which options are the sensible ones.
Minimal beneficial dosage would vary from individual to individual obviously. Is the problem that you are going hypo at some point after ingesting these carbs?

[RazorRipped]

:popcorn: <<--- No butter!

[derekanthony]

Its good you have an open mind bro. I encourage you to experiment, I just want you to be very clear on which options are the sensible ones.
Minimal beneficial dosage would vary from individual to individual obviously. Is the problem that you are going hypo at some point after ingesting these carbs?your a fcking pussy I'll see you at the mets pinnochio. Your done saying I wBted to sell u shit. Your the fucki g pussy begging for a diaretic cause your build sucks and need one. And u needed primo you dumb fucking troll u were asking. Did I ever get you anything. Noooooooo I don't deal drugs. I no people that do pussy who doesn't. And by the way do shit don't feel bad I got my 15 k ring back mother fucker that's why I wanted to get in touch with her cause if she was cheating on me I get it back and I did u pussy. Now shut the fuck up keep training cause your build sucks. You fucking troll I can't wait to see u see how tough u fucking are pussy. Doneeeeeeeee

[NPCKnight]

LOL. Don't get me started. There is so much more I can say. What about the time you offered me GHB at the 2008 Arnold? The first weekend I met you and hung out in the lobby of the marriott for a couple hrs? I found it rather funny on OFF TOPIC radio show the other week Carl Lanore asked you if you ever offered it to anybody and you said no. Don't you claim to always give the truth?

**I feel this is okay to mention because if it is talked about on the radio program broadcast and linked through this site then it should be acceptable here. Besides, at RX Muscle...isn't the saying 'The Truth Hurts' ?!

[derekanthony]

LOL. Don't get me started. There is so much more I can say. What about the time you offered me GHB at the 2008 Arnold? The first weekend I met you and hung out in the lobby of the marriott for a couple hrs? I found it rather funny on OFF TOPIC radio show the other week Carl Lanore asked you if you ever offered it to anybody and you said no. Don't you claim to always give the truth?

**I feel this is okay to mention because if it is talked about on the radio program broadcast and linked through this site then it should be acceptable here. Besides, at RX Muscle...isn't the saying 'The Truth Hurts' ?!he said girls pinnochio keep talking shit i been sober for 6 months and must have been high talking to you you ugly trol! of course i offered it asshole he meant my girlfriends or give it to people without them knowing just like dave said i dont have degrees you fucking liar i cant wait to see your big nose ass at the mets its on bitch we will see how much shit talking you do there bitch

your a fucking stalker watching and listening everthing i do get off my cock there tiny you sure you aint gay? you were on my dick a lot i guess i would be to after dating woopi goldberg lmao your a tool no wonder why you call me a racist and say i say the n word grow balls its called nigger what yo ucant say that in front up you girl. what she got you rapped around your finger pinocchio? lol your a joke

i neeeeeeeeeeeeeeed primo i need a diaretic derek can you get me some ....................did i ever ger you any pinocchio nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo never would i talked shit like i talked shit i would get you shit sups etc... i would never give you a thing i used you so i can get into my girls account so i can get my ring back.. cant bullshit a bullshit artist and play a player dip shit

have a nice day

looking forward to your response you goofy looking pinocchio looking gargoil however you spell is fool post a pick of your ugly mug so i can laugh and so can everyone else

[NPCKnight]

You know...I'm glad youre sober for 6 months.
Are you going to use your excuse for being high for everything?

You are sober now and youre still a disgrace.

But calling my girlfriend Whoopi Goldberg cuz she is black is pretty fucked up. Then saying I can't say nigger around my girl? I was raised better than that.

[RazorRipped]

Everyone happy? You guys both had your say.

Lets call an end to the useless banter.

Thread closed....