Kre-Alkalyn vs. creatine mono

[Nic Brunicardi]

Not too long ago Layne posted some scientific studies (on the MD board) showing that CCE was in no way superior to creatine monohydrate. However, I never got around to the answer about the effectiveness of Kre-Alkalyn vs. monohydrate.
Any expert opinions on that? :)

[dvsness]

Got this from Layne:

Kre-alkalyn? supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. [email protected]

All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn? (KA) a ?Buffered? creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (Creapure?). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.

[Nic Brunicardi]

Got this from Layne:

Kre-alkalyn? supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. [email protected]

All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn? (KA) a ?Buffered? creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (Creapure?). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.

Beautiful :)
Just what I was looking for...

[buster12]

In my experience, creatine mono prevails...

[Lvwyo]

In my limited experience I have found that I seem to get better results with CM than KA.

[BigJD69]

Mono def rules as far as Creatines goes hands down. Some people have issues with Mono with their stomaches; discomfort, bloating. When I had my store opened I would recommend Kre-Alk to those that had stomach issues with Mono. Some guys really liked the Kre. Different products work for some and not so well for others!

[Admiral Johnson]

I tried ka and noticed nothing. but I get great results from mono

[ironman0370]

Bump for CM. There's never been a study that I know of that has shown CEE, Kre-Alkalyn, or any other creatine derivative to be better or more effective than regular creatine monohydrate in performance enhancement or indirectly gaining LBM.

As far as sides go (stomach discomfort, etc.), I have noticed that some of that is due to lack of hydration, but also that just like anything else, higher quality creatines produce fewer "sides". Creapure brand rarely has any claims of discomfort, and I've also found that micronized versions of CM are terrific for these problems.

[BigJD69]

The only product that I had stomach issues with was Juggernaut!

[militantmuscle]

Your physiques and wallets will be way better off with micronized creatine monohydrate and tons of water, better yet make your own effervescent creatine formula to ensure absorption at a ph of 4.

[mts]

Species will be coming out with a liquid creatine product very soon, is a patient on a stable liquid creatine with no sugar and stomach upset. It sounded pretty cool to me, I wouldn't mind having something like that to take to the gym and sip on it

[lartinos]

considering mono makes me wanna puke, I prefer cee.

[dvsness]

Mono def rules as far as Creatines goes hands down. Some people have issues with Mono with their stomaches; discomfort, bloating. When I had my store opened I would recommend Kre-Alk to those that had stomach issues with Mono. Some guys really liked the Kre. Different products work for some and not so well for others!

Stomach issues tend to be dose dependent with Mono. Many people take entirely too much.



considering mono makes me wanna puke, I prefer cee.

ABSTRACT
The Effects of Creatine Ethyl Ester Supplementation Combined with Resistance Training
on Body Composition, Muscle Mass and Performance, and Intramuscular Creatine
Uptake in Males
Mike Spillane, M.S.Ed.
Advisor: Darryn S. Willoughby, Ph.D.

Creatine monohydrate has become one of the most popular ingested nutritional supplements due to its potential enhancement of athletic performance. Creatine absorption from the serum into skeletal muscle occurs through the utilization of a membrane-spanning protein, CreaT1. Numerous creatine formulations have been developed primarily to maximize creatine absorption. Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) has been chemically modified by adding an ester group and is thought to increase creatine bioavailability by by-passing the CreaT1. This study examined how a seven week supplementation regimen with CEE affected body composition, muscle mass and performance, whole body creatine retention, as well physiological and molecular adaptations, associated with creatine uptake in nonresistance-trained males following a resistance-training program. Results demonstrated that CEE did not show any additional benefit to increases in muscle strength/performance or a significant increase in total muscle creatine when compared to creatine monohydrate or placebo. CEE supplementation did show a large increase in creatinine levels throughout the study.

----------------------------------

Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, [email protected]

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (Creapure?). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

----------------------------------------------------

[Lee Penman]

Creatine Mono has the science and longevity behind it to prove that it works. I think that it simply became 'less trendy' when all the new hi-tec supps hit the market. That is when we saw the emergence of all these different forms, each one heralded to be more effective than its predecesor. Marketing...marketing...marketing!

[thechampofchamp]

No contest Kre-Alkalyn is worthless

[Pearce]

Got this from Layne:

Kre-alkalyn? supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. [email protected]

All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn? (KA) a ?Buffered? creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (Creapure?). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.

word.

[fchris1]

very interesting read, so basically if its not monohydrate dont even mess with it, either creatinine conversion and percentage of how much is taken in. Mono it is

[GetLean]

From what I have seen in studies Kre Alk breaks down into creatinine at a 45-70% faster rate than CrM.

[militantmuscle]

Creatinine is just a by-product of phosphocreatine utilization in natural ATP regeneration that is removed by the kidneys and eliminated in urine.

So if KA indeed breaks down into creatinine at a 45-70% faster rate than CrM, then that's not good.

[MuscleAddict83]

dvsness - whats your protocol for taking creatine? Do you take it smaller doses throughout the day or do you take it just pre&post? Do you stack it with anything else? What kind of carb source do you use?

[GetLean]

I find the best times for me to take creatine are morning and PWO, as those are the only time I elicit insulin spikes with simple sugars. 5-10g morning, 5g PWO.

[chucksm00th]

The whole idea of these "fancy" creatines is to has better absorbtion, But regualr monohydrate taken along with Waxi maize is going to push it into the muscles faster than anything else.

Dont waste your money, stick to monohydrates, less money and same results

[dvsness]

dvsness - whats your protocol for taking creatine? Do you take it smaller doses throughout the day or do you take it just pre&post? Do you stack it with anything else? What kind of carb source do you use?

I take ~3g/day, in my PWO shake. During offseason, that shake is PRO+CHO, using complex carbs and during prep it was PRO only (yes, omg, you don't need sugar, shocker!). While carbs can enhance uptake in both remainders and non-responders, they are no necessary. Besides, you are going to have some kind of insulin response from anything you ingest - even just BCAAs give an insulin response. I don't think you need some superfast carb PWO or some massive spike in insulin - you are not training fasted, and protein synthesis is more crucial than glycogen replenishment.

[NPCKnight]

The whole idea of these "fancy" creatines is to has better absorbtion, But regualr monohydrate taken along with Waxi maize is going to push it into the muscles faster than anything else.

Dont waste your money, stick to monohydrates, less money and same results

stop spreading this bullshit. no offense. its time for you to wake up and realize like the rest of us that waxy maize is horse shit. better off using white bread or dextrose.

[chucksm00th]

stop spreading this bullshit. no offense. its time for you to wake up and realize like the rest of us that waxy maize is horse shit. better off using white bread or dextrose.

Im not spreading bullshit, im only telling from my own experiences. It not like im making this crap up, it seriously has worked for me, if you dont like it then dont take it, i believe we agree to disagree on this matter.

[NPCKnight]

I believe you stating that Waxy Maize taken with creatine will push it into the muscles 'faster than anything else' IS FLAT OUT WRONG since science proves otherwise. You are stating a cause and effect scenario when in reality that is not what is happening. You don't FEEL that happening inside you. so dont tell me you know better from your experience of feeling what your cells are doing while refilling their glycogen stores.

I'm sure youve spent time and money on Waxy and since nothing bad has come of it, you root for it. But why would you put anything but the best in your body. Or at least....why would you use something with no scientific backing and that performs at a lower level than other scientifically PROVEN, researched items. (Which btw Waxy Maize and all companies who market a product have just used all the claims of that one PROVEN product when in reality none of Waxy stacks up.)

Wake up bro.

[chucksm00th]

I believe you stating that Waxy Maize taken with creatine will push it into the muscles 'faster than anything else' IS FLAT OUT WRONG since science proves otherwise. You are stating a cause and effect scenario when in reality that is not what is happening. You don't FEEL that happening inside you. so dont tell me you know better from your experience of feeling what your cells are doing while refilling their glycogen stores.

I'm sure youve spent time and money on Waxy and since nothing bad has come of it, you root for it. But why would you put anything but the best in your body. Or at least....why would you use something with no scientific backing and that performs at a lower level than other scientifically PROVEN, researched items. (Which btw Waxy Maize and all companies who market a product have just used all the claims of that one PROVEN product when in reality none of Waxy stacks up.)

Wake up bro.

Im sure you remember when people used to take creatine w/ grape juice back in the day to help increse/speed up absorbtion of the creatine into the muscles, well what im saying is the waxi does it faster.

As for the waxi topic bieng a high molecular weight carb (HMW)the words most often thrown around when talking about HMW carbohydrates are "gastric emptying" and "osmolality." These terms essentially go hand in hand with each other. Osmolality, often confused with osmolarity, affects the transport of water and other solutes over the cell membranes. Osmolality is related to the specific osmolality of the blood, which is 280-303 mOsm/kg in humans. A solute that has the same osmolality of blood is said to be isotonic while a solute that has a lower osmolality than blood is hypotonic. The more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine where the bulk of nutrient uptake occurs. A very low osmolality means the solution will get to your muscles with great speed and efficiency.


The higher the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the lower its osmolality. The lower the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the higher its osmolality. Therefore, a carbohydrate's molecular weight varies inversely to its osmolality. Knowing this, you can begin to appreciate the difference between HMW carbohydrates and dextrose. The molecular weight of the typical HMW carbohydrate that is marketed today has a molecular weight of 500,000-700,000; whereas, the molecular weight of dextrose is approximately 180. This statistic helps quantify the difference between the two carbohydrate sources. The osmolality of a particular HMW carbohydrate is 11 mOsm/kg in a 5% solution, which is considerably lower than the osmolality of blood at 300 mOsm/kg. With an osmolality that low, the HMW carbohydrate is extremely hypotonic, and we know that the more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine. This means that in the world of carbohydrates, the HMW carbohydrate is a Ferrari, and dextrose is your mother's Buick Skylark.

In fact, Some popular HMW carbohydrate drinks have been shown to pass through the stomach 80% faster than dextrose, allowing restoration of glycogen 70% faster than any other carbohydrate. Which means you start rebuilding muscle 70% sooner than you already are after a workout?

One particular study showed that the mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher for a HMW carbohydrate drink compared to a glucose drink for 2 whole hours after ingestion. The scientists in the study concluded that "the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of re-synthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise." In essence, the scientists are saying that HMW carbohydrate will get to your muscles significantly faster than whatever carbohydrate you're currently using."


If you understand the composition of muscle, you'll see that there's much more to it than just contractile tissue. Don't forget the water, stored glycogen, minerals, blood vessels, and capillaries. By employing HMW carbohydrate powders, carbohydrate reserves can be quickly replenished, along with water and any other cell volumizing nutrients you consume along with it. Remember, faster glycogen restoration decreases catabolism and increases the rate of protein synthesis.

[NPCKnight]

How much of that did you copy and paste? I am well aware of the meanings and mechanisms behind these supplements such as HMW carbohydrates. Obviously you have not seen the new research out done by David Barr that has shown that BREAD or DEXTROSE work better than all the waxy's they tested. Waxy is a joke.

All your mentions of studies with HMW carbs sound like the claims Vitargo was making. Now Vitargo is your Ferrari that you speak of. Your other waxy maizes are the buick. And then there is dextrose and white bread which must be BMW and Mercedes...

[NPCKnight]

I see this needs to be posted again here...
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/waxy_maize_starch_myth.htm

[chucksm00th]

hear me out on this one NPCKnight, I got that atricle directly from a blog/post from Justin Harris, The guy is incredibly smart from a Nutrition standpoint including our own Dave Plaumbo, both have shared identical opinions on the matter, unfortunately i cannot show you what Dave wrote on it since MD decided to delete everything.

Take this into consideration also why would Justin ahrris and Dave Palumbo lie about the product??? It makes no sense. I do understand you bodybuilding.com atricle but what i have hard time beleiving is the fact that both those guys whould give us false info.

I would also want to beleive Steve blechman is somehow behind this, this about it...Hes bashing Daves diet up and down saying how its crap and bogus etc, why would he stop after Dave advocated Waxi Maize??? The guy wants to ruin Daves credibility...i can go on and on...im by no means so scientist but John Romano said it best

”Who are you going to listen to, a shredded 270lb bodybuilder who prepped 200 competitors last year– 98% of whom proclaimed they were in the best shape of their lives– or a 130 pound science junkie waving a study who’s never competed nor coached anyone to the stage?” Practical application of knowledge to affect a favorable outcome is what people are after, not proof based on what a study says.

Im going to go with the big guys on that one..If you choose otherwise then fine so be it.

I never said Dextrose didnt work if you think that, but from what i was told from credible sources is what "I choose to believe"

for every 100 people i can get to say Yes to WM you could get 100 for Dextrose...its pretty silly at this point

[NPCKnight]

Damnit dude...I know who Justin is. Thanks for the info. I used to correspond with Justin years ago over email. I know he is smart. He is also affiliated with Dante who sells WMS. Justin prob gets all his WMS free too. Anyways....he wrote that stuff like 2 yrs ago. And it was highly on the assumption Waxy Maize was a mirror image/raw product of what Vitargo is. Much more has come to light on the differences since.

I am not suggesting Dave or Justin would lie. But they have vested interests and could very easily have been fooled like the rest of us. I was fooled at one point..I'll admit.

Dave's physique and 270lb massive structure have nothing to fucking do with WMS. I don't think he was using that back in his day. Thats my point. So while I believe most of what Dave says as gospel, I dont attribute his physique to a product that he happens to sell. That being said, I never sold WMS, but I advocated it for a while. The fact that you are even crediting Blechman being at the reigns of this is laughable in my opinion. That asshole is too hung up on Victors glutes to know what the fuck is going on with waxy maize.

What you choose to believe is another story, but thats really not my problem.

Waxy doesnt create the same insulin response and is a SLOW carb if you read the article debunking it.

[needtogetaas]

In order for creatine to be effective it needs to bond with a phosphate group and become Creatine Phosphate.

In your body you have a compound called ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate). Think of ATP as an energy containing compound. What is important to know about ATP is that the body can very quickly get energy from a ATP reaction. You have other sources of energy such as carbohydrates and fat - but they take longer to convert into a useable energy source. When you are doing an intense quick burst activity - such as lifting a weight or sprinting, your muscles must contract and need a quick source of energy. This immediate energy comes from ATP

When your muscles use ATP for energy a chemical process happens where the ATP is broken down into two simpler chemicals ADP (adenosine di-phosphate) and inorganic phosphate. This process of ATP turning into ADP releases the energy which gives your muscles the ability to contract. Unfortunately, we do not have an endless supply of ATP. In fact, your muscles only contain enough ATP to last about 10-15 seconds at maximum exertion. In case you were wondering - no, the ADP can not be used to create more energy for your muscles

the majority of creatine that is stored in the muscles bonds with abundant phosphorus stores in the muscles and is converted into Creatine Phosphate (CP). CP is able to react with the ADP in your body and turn "useless" ADP back into the "super useful" energy source - ATP. More ATP in your body means more fuel for your muscles.

Although no studies that I know of have proven Creatine Phosphate so work any better then others in theory it makes some sense. I have always used Creatine Phosphate And never had a problem with it. I have some pretty bad ulcers and IBS
and it still never gives me any stomach trouble.. IMO Its pretty good stuff.

[needtogetaas]

Damnit dude...I know who Justin is. Thanks for the info. I used to correspond with Justin years ago over email. I know he is smart. He is also affiliated with Dante who sells WMS. Justin prob gets all his WMS free too. Anyways....he wrote that stuff like 2 yrs ago. And it was highly on the assumption Waxy Maize was a mirror image/raw product of what Vitargo is. Much more has come to light on the differences since.

I am not suggesting Dave or Justin would lie. But they have vested interests and could very easily have been fooled like the rest of us. I was fooled at one point..I'll admit.

Dave's physique and 270lb massive structure have nothing to fucking do with WMS. I don't think he was using that back in his day. Thats my point. So while I believe most of what Dave says as gospel, I dont attribute his physique to a product that he happens to sell. That being said, I never sold WMS, but I advocated it for a while. The fact that you are even crediting Blechman being at the reigns of this is laughable in my opinion. That asshole is too hung up on Victors glutes to know what the fuck is going on with waxy maize.

What you choose to believe is another story, but thats really not my problem.

Waxy doesnt create the same insulin response and is a SLOW carb if you read the article debunking it.
Man I am loving this place.

[Gerb]

Gotta love forums, funny how a question about KA vs Mono turns into a Waxy debate ....

Anyways, I was looking for information on Mono and loading. I ran out of mono a couple months ago and just ordered more in. Do I need to load or is that just bs? I normally take 5grams pre-wo 5grams post-wo. Should I load at 2-4x that for a few days or week or am I good-to-go and can just start back at my normal pre/post 10grams per/day? Basically, is loading even important?

Thanks, and good info in this thread.

[orhochris]

Gotta love forums, funny how a question about KA vs Mono turns into a Waxy debate ....

Anyways, I was looking for information on Mono and loading. I ran out of mono a couple months ago and just ordered more in. Do I need to load or is that just bs? I normally take 5grams pre-wo 5grams post-wo. Should I load at 2-4x that for a few days or week or am I good-to-go and can just start back at my normal pre/post 10grams per/day? Basically, is loading even important?

Thanks, and good info in this thread.

NO you do not need to load. 25-35 percent of people are non-responders to creatine. of the remaining folks that are responders... 1/3 of them don't respond to loading. they reach muscle saturation over time using a maintenance dose daily for a month. For this group... even if they load at 20 grams for 5 days as is standard practice, they gain the effects of creatine (volumization, water increase, strength/weight gain) after the month is up of standard usage.

For the other half of the population that does respond to loading. They can and will gain the effects of creatine after 5 days, making the effects more noticable (if you're going to be 5% stronger with creatine, that 5 percent increase gained after 5 days of loading versus 30 days of maintenance dosing will be more dramatic.)

but either way they will gain the effects.

try both. if you feel the effects after a week of loading... then continue to load when you come off to get the gains faster... if you don't... then you know don't waste the extra 15g per day the first 5 days and just use maintenance for a month in the future to saturate the muscle.

[orhochris]

as for knight and whoever was arguing. YOu guys are bitching about symantecs.

the studies barr posted referred to glucose levels, insulin spike, and glycogen resynthesis. None of that refers to creatine absorption. which is what brought up the wms in the first place. Thats what palumbo says also. It may not spike insulin as high as white bread or glucose or dextrose. But the HMW carb "theoretically" pulls the nutrients (creatine) through the stomach faster. (the boat analogy through a harbor pulling a dingy into its wake).

until a study is conducted to show that creatine/nutrient absorption is lower using wms than other preparations we don't know which is better.

I DON"T use wms any more... I think there are cheaper alternatives and more effective alternatives...

I'm just saying we don't know what hasn't been studied... namely that wms increases creatine. so until that comes out... keep spending 40 bucks on a tub of carbs folks... I won't judge you.

and for you knight... let'm be... you and I have 40 more dollars to spend on protein and food than the rest of them.

[Gerb]

NO you do not need to load. 25-35 percent of people are non-responders to creatine. of the remaining folks that are responders... 1/3 of them don't respond to loading. they reach muscle saturation over time using a maintenance dose daily for a month. For this group... even if they load at 20 grams for 5 days as is standard practice, they gain the effects of creatine (volumization, water increase, strength/weight gain) after the month is up of standard usage.

For the other half of the population that does respond to loading. They can and will gain the effects of creatine after 5 days, making the effects more noticable (if you're going to be 5% stronger with creatine, that 5 percent increase gained after 5 days of loading versus 30 days of maintenance dosing will be more dramatic.)

but either way they will gain the effects.

try both. if you feel the effects after a week of loading... then continue to load when you come off to get the gains faster... if you don't... then you know don't waste the extra 15g per day the first 5 days and just use maintenance for a month in the future to saturate the muscle.

Cool. Thanks for the input.