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esplendido
03-22-2009, 03:57 PM
Ladies, here's your chance for undivided attention. Ask Sassy anything. It's your thread!

Gunz
03-27-2009, 11:37 PM
Tell me why the judges of the sanctioning organizations can't decide on the criteria for women competitors? When I was a figure competitor, they said I was too muscular; so I softened up - then I was not hard enough. I see the same issues now with WBB. Why?

thepump
03-27-2009, 11:44 PM
Sassy, we were at the Kentucky Muscle Show and they had one woman in the heavy weight division with absolutley no muscle what so ever. Do they have any guidelines for who can compete or did they just want a warm body up there? She obviously won due to process of elimination, but it looked like they grabbed her off the street.

sassy69
03-28-2009, 03:11 AM
Tell me why the judges of the sanctioning organizations can't decide on the criteria for women competitors? When I was a figure competitor, they said I was too muscular; so I softened up - then I was not hard enough. I see the same issues now with WBB. Why?

LOL you guys sure nailed the big questions huh? The whole question of what the hell are they looking for as judging criteria in FBB....

So here's the posted judging criteria for the NPC women's bodybuilding (http://npcnewsonline.com/new/npcrules_bodybuilding.htm).

NPC JUDGING CRITERIA

The sport of bodybuilding represents the balanced muscular development of the physique. The quality of this development is determined by the overall assessment of these areas:


PRESENTATION
SIZE - MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
SYMMETRY - BALANCE OF THE PHYSIQUE
MUSCULARITY - LACK OF BODYFAT
It is imperative to remember that each category is of equal importance. The judges will submit one final placing for each competitor after the completion of all three rounds of posing – Relaxed Round, Individual Posing Round, Mandatory Round.

Relaxed Round

The Relaxed Round is designed to show the proportion, shape and balance of the physique in a relaxed state. Competitors are directed to do turns. The following are important guidelines to correctly doing the Relaxed turns:


Head faces the way your feet are facing
Hands at your sides
No twisting
Feet flat
Individual Posing Round

The Individual Posing Round is the opportunity for the competitors to display their physique by showing their strengths and hiding their weaknesses.

Each pose should emphasize one or more muscle groups and must be held momentarily in order for a judge to assess properly.

There is a time limit of one minute during the Prejudging and 90 seconds in the Finals. No music is used other than background house music.

Mandatory Comparison Round

Competitors are directed to perform the Mandatory Poses. Judges assess muscle size, symmetry and muscularity by comparing one competitor to another.


MANDATORY POSES

POSE#1 - FRONT DOUBLE BICEP
POSE#2 - FRONT LAT SPREAD
POSE#3 - SIDE CHEST POSE (either side)
POSE#4 - SIDE TRICEP EXTENSION (either side)
POSE#5 - BACK DOUBLE BICEP
POSE#6 - BACK LAT SPREAD
POSE#7 - ABDOMINAL POSE
POSE#8 - MOST MUSCULAR (Men Only)
Criteria For Female Bodybuilders

Judges look for the Total Package – the balance of size, symmetry and muscularity. There are, however, limits to the size of the muscles and the degree of muscularity that are acceptable. Competitors must maintain a feminine look. Extreme hardness and extreme muscle size is not acceptable.

MANDATORY POSES


POSE#1 - FRONT DOUBLE BICEP
POSE#2 - FRONT LAT SPREAD
POSE#3 - SIDE CHEST POSE (either side)
POSE#4 - SIDE TRICEP EXTENSION (either side)
POSE#5 - BACK DOUBLE BICEP
POSE#6 - BACK LAT SPREAD
POSE#7 – ABDOMINAL/THIGH POSE
So its all pretty subjective... "extreme" hardness & muscle size is not acceptable, and must appear "feminine". So for quantitative judging.. kinda hard to quantify that. Even the old "20% softer" rule -- 20% softer than what? Its all relative to whatever was last year, and whatever each judge considers "feminine" and "extreme". And then its also a comparison amongst those who showed up.

I think Figure is a LOT more subjective than BB because there is so much less to judge on -- 10,000 girls in blingy suits doing nothing but quarter turns. I will be very interested to see how the rest of the big shows play out this year. We've definitely seen some dramatic changes in judging the last several years. Its probably fair to say that striated glutes are too much, but you still want to come in tight, but not thick as shit. (Still pretty squishy criteria.) A good example of this call was w/ the Arnold Amateur overall. You cannot argue that the Heavywt winner was amazingly conditioned and muscular. But the Middlewt won. How come? She has a great shape, but IMo was way too soft for that show. And I think what really drove me nuts was that she didn't look like she intended to come in that way, but rather just came up short and won on being "a little softer than we'd like" vs the "hellabunch too conditioned and hard", even though that is what we think of when we see top notch bodybuilders. But there were other factors that went into the decision that you could argue for either/or, but the overall ultimately went to the softer competitor. That's a call.

So is there an answer to your question? Nope. Its a little more predictable than Figure judging because there are fewer competitors and more to judge on. I'm really interested to see where all of the women's physique categories start to settle in relative to each other. At this point FBB is the only place where 'muscular' and 'hard' fit. Personally I think you're going to see some evolution within the Figure category because IMO they've lowered the barriers to entry for it and also w/ Bikini, but it doesn't really leave that many places for the more experiences Figure competitors who do actually want the more muscular, harder look, which is also a natural consequence of continued training & dieting. We may see more people moving into FBB, or we may see some recognition of these harder girls within Figure. I'm looking to the Jr USAs to get the first view of where this is going.

I think, because you're in BB, you see where you can take it w/ the size & conditioning of the old school girls. But that takes time and / or lots of androgens to get there. That means that's the upper extreme, so stop short of it. You've got some time to see where you take your own body. Short of the extreme size & conditioning, you've got room to work, while bringing a "feminine" presentation to the stage and generally just bringing what you think is YOUR best package to the stage.

sassy69
03-28-2009, 03:22 AM
Sassy, we were at the Kentucky Muscle Show and they had one woman in the heavy weight division with absolutley no muscle what so ever. Do they have any guidelines for who can compete or did they just want a warm body up there? She obviously won due to process of elimination, but it looked like they grabbed her off the street.

There's always someone who looks like they have no business being there, or just straight up no clue. But the fact of the matter is that competitions at any level lower than the national shows that require a win or top placing to compete, is open to anyone who meets the following requirements:

- wear the appropriate posing suit
- pay the annual federation dues
- submit the particular competition's application form and entry fee (within a specified time if required)

That's pretty much it.

I guess for those that don't have the environment or people around them to be prepared for what a physique competition is, they need to start somewhere. Not everyone has BB classes to go to find out how to prepare. Some people just set a goal to get on stage to acknowledge an accomplishment like losing weight, or generally "being in the best shape of her life". Everyone has their own reason for getting on stage.

Its a weird thing about physique competitions. But that's the way it is, and at the end of the day, if the promoter got his entry fee, sold some show tickets and the federation got their dues, they're happy.

Gunz
03-28-2009, 07:31 AM
There's always someone who looks like they have no business being there, or just straight up no clue. But the fact of the matter is that competitions at any level lower than the national shows that require a win or top placing to compete, is open to anyone who meets the following requirements:

- wear the appropriate posing suit
- pay the annual federation dues
- submit the particular competition's application form and entry fee (within a specified time if required)

That's pretty much it.

I guess for those that don't have the environment or people around them to be prepared for what a physique competition is, they need to start somewhere. Not everyone has BB classes to go to find out how to prepare. Some people just set a goal to get on stage to acknowledge an accomplishment like losing weight, or generally "being in the best shape of her life". Everyone has their own reason for getting on stage.

Its a weird thing about physique competitions. But that's the way it is, and at the end of the day, if the promoter got his entry fee, sold some show tickets and the federation got their dues, they're happy.

It's always about the almighty dollar, $sn't $t??

Gunz
03-28-2009, 07:34 AM
LOL you guys sure nailed the big questions huh? The whole question of what the hell are they looking for as judging criteria in FBB....

So here's the posted judging criteria for the NPC women's bodybuilding (http://npcnewsonline.com/new/npcrules_bodybuilding.htm).

NPC JUDGING CRITERIA

The sport of bodybuilding represents the balanced muscular development of the physique. The quality of this development is determined by the overall assessment of these areas:


PRESENTATION
SIZE - MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
SYMMETRY - BALANCE OF THE PHYSIQUE
MUSCULARITY - LACK OF BODYFAT
It is imperative to remember that each category is of equal importance. The judges will submit one final placing for each competitor after the completion of all three rounds of posing Relaxed Round, Individual Posing Round, Mandatory Round.

Relaxed Round

The Relaxed Round is designed to show the proportion, shape and balance of the physique in a relaxed state. Competitors are directed to do turns. The following are important guidelines to correctly doing the Relaxed turns:


Head faces the way your feet are facing
Hands at your sides
No twisting
Feet flat
Individual Posing Round

The Individual Posing Round is the opportunity for the competitors to display their physique by showing their strengths and hiding their weaknesses.

Each pose should emphasize one or more muscle groups and must be held momentarily in order for a judge to assess properly.

There is a time limit of one minute during the Prejudging and 90 seconds in the Finals. No music is used other than background house music.

Mandatory Comparison Round

Competitors are directed to perform the Mandatory Poses. Judges assess muscle size, symmetry and muscularity by comparing one competitor to another.



MANDATORY POSES

POSE#1 - FRONT DOUBLE BICEP
POSE#2 - FRONT LAT SPREAD
POSE#3 - SIDE CHEST POSE (either side)
POSE#4 - SIDE TRICEP EXTENSION (either side)
POSE#5 - BACK DOUBLE BICEP
POSE#6 - BACK LAT SPREAD
POSE#7 - ABDOMINAL POSE
POSE#8 - MOST MUSCULAR (Men Only)
Criteria For Female Bodybuilders

Judges look for the Total Package the balance of size, symmetry and muscularity. There are, however, limits to the size of the muscles and the degree of muscularity that are acceptable. Competitors must maintain a feminine look. Extreme hardness and extreme muscle size is not acceptable.

MANDATORY POSES


POSE#1 - FRONT DOUBLE BICEP
POSE#2 - FRONT LAT SPREAD
POSE#3 - SIDE CHEST POSE (either side)
POSE#4 - SIDE TRICEP EXTENSION (either side)
POSE#5 - BACK DOUBLE BICEP
POSE#6 - BACK LAT SPREAD
POSE#7 ABDOMINAL/THIGH POSE
So its all pretty subjective... "extreme" hardness & muscle size is not acceptable, and must appear "feminine". So for quantitative judging.. kinda hard to quantify that. Even the old "20% softer" rule -- 20% softer than what? Its all relative to whatever was last year, and whatever each judge considers "feminine" and "extreme". And then its also a comparison amongst those who showed up.

I think Figure is a LOT more subjective than BB because there is so much less to judge on -- 10,000 girls in blingy suits doing nothing but quarter turns. I will be very interested to see how the rest of the big shows play out this year. We've definitely seen some dramatic changes in judging the last several years. Its probably fair to say that striated glutes are too much, but you still want to come in tight, but not thick as shit. (Still pretty squishy criteria.) A good example of this call was w/ the Arnold Amateur overall. You cannot argue that the Heavywt winner was amazingly conditioned and muscular. But the Middlewt won. How come? She has a great shape, but IMo was way too soft for that show. And I think what really drove me nuts was that she didn't look like she intended to come in that way, but rather just came up short and won on being "a little softer than we'd like" vs the "hellabunch too conditioned and hard", even though that is what we think of when we see top notch bodybuilders. But there were other factors that went into the decision that you could argue for either/or, but the overall ultimately went to the softer competitor. That's a call.

So is there an answer to your question? Nope. Its a little more predictable than Figure judging because there are fewer competitors and more to judge on. I'm really interested to see where all of the women's physique categories start to settle in relative to each other. At this point FBB is the only place where 'muscular' and 'hard' fit. Personally I think you're going to see some evolution within the Figure category because IMO they've lowered the barriers to entry for it and also w/ Bikini, but it doesn't really leave that many places for the more experiences Figure competitors who do actually want the more muscular, harder look, which is also a natural consequence of continued training & dieting. We may see more people moving into FBB, or we may see some recognition of these harder girls within Figure. I'm looking to the Jr USAs to get the first view of where this is going.

I think, because you're in BB, you see where you can take it w/ the size & conditioning of the old school girls. But that takes time and / or lots of androgens to get there. That means that's the upper extreme, so stop short of it. You've got some time to see where you take your own body. Short of the extreme size & conditioning, you've got room to work, while bringing a "feminine" presentation to the stage and generally just bringing what you think is YOUR best package to the stage.

Great information. I learned early on in my figure career, that this sport is very subjective and you just have to be happy with what you bring to the stage on that day.

And I am all for FBB not looking like men, and maybe that's what they're trying to do with the placements, but let's be consistent across the board!!

sassy69
03-28-2009, 06:07 PM
It's always about the almighty dollar, $sn't $t??

Especially in this sport. Consider this - "fitness" is a very broad industry and there's nothing regulated or organized about it. There's nothing like Major League Baseball (MLB) or anything like that. Those are literally namebrands that command commercial dollars. In the fitness world, there are a pile of different federations, there's no formal coaching process or anything - its all about who can "sell" you on their coaching / prep skills, supplements, gym membership, etc. So everyone is diving for their little piece of the pie. Its a really weird thing because there are obviously a huge number of people w/ a passion for it, there are piles and piles of people who at least go to the gym, but basically the only place to draw money from is the really passionate people. Its not like the general public attends BB shows or anything. The only place to get money is from those in the sport and those willing to go watch the people in the sport. In fact the sport doesn't exist w/o the federations. People don't get together & posedown in the back yard on Saturday w/ the guys and some beers. They do that w/ baseball, but not BB.

sassy69
03-28-2009, 06:12 PM
Great information. I learned early on in my figure career, that this sport is very subjective and you just have to be happy with what you bring to the stage on that day.

And I am all for FBB not looking like men, and maybe that's what they're trying to do with the placements, but let's be consistent across the board!!

It really is a one-person sport and the shows are just milestones in your own progression towards "the end". But since it really is the journey and not the destination, hard to make the trophy the bigger accomplishment.

Another really funny part about this sport is basically the only time anyone really "remembers" a winner is when they do get their pro card. Otherwise, people think in terms of 16 weeks to a target show, the day of the show, the day after the show, and then move on to whatever is the next big event. Take the Arnold for ex, ... BIG deal building up to that weekend. Then the weekend itself! Then maybe 3-4 days after the weekend. And then everyone is now talking about the Olympia.

But to your point, I never feel like the federations have taken the time to define what they are looking for. Instead they respond to what shows up and what looks best to the people judging at the particular show. You do that for a while & establish a trend, but its not consistent, so its still a crapshoot. It should be defined clearly before anyone walks on stage, and be held to consistently across the whole federation. Not show to show, depending on the state or the promoter.

Gunz
03-29-2009, 11:13 AM
It really is a one-person sport and the shows are just milestones in your own progression towards "the end". But since it really is the journey and not the destination, hard to make the trophy the bigger accomplishment.

Another really funny part about this sport is basically the only time anyone really "remembers" a winner is when they do get their pro card. Otherwise, people think in terms of 16 weeks to a target show, the day of the show, the day after the show, and then move on to whatever is the next big event. Take the Arnold for ex, ... BIG deal building up to that weekend. Then the weekend itself! Then maybe 3-4 days after the weekend. And then everyone is now talking about the Olympia.

But to your point, I never feel like the federations have taken the time to define what they are looking for. Instead they respond to what shows up and what looks best to the people judging at the particular show. You do that for a while & establish a trend, but its not consistent, so its still a crapshoot. It should be defined clearly before anyone walks on stage, and be held to consistently across the whole federation. Not show to show, depending on the state or the promoter.

This may just show my igonorance or lack of knowledge, but who chooses the judges for the shows? Is it consistenly the same group of judges for the show done by region or what? Perhaps if you could research the shows and the judges and how they typically place the competitors, that might shed some light - but then that begs the question, do you really have time to do that and will the research bear out consistentcy or more the flavor of the day!

Gunz
03-29-2009, 11:15 AM
Especially in this sport. Consider this - "fitness" is a very broad industry and there's nothing regulated or organized about it. There's nothing like Major League Baseball (MLB) or anything like that. Those are literally namebrands that command commercial dollars. In the fitness world, there are a pile of different federations, there's no formal coaching process or anything - its all about who can "sell" you on their coaching / prep skills, supplements, gym membership, etc. So everyone is diving for their little piece of the pie. Its a really weird thing because there are obviously a huge number of people w/ a passion for it, there are piles and piles of people who at least go to the gym, but basically the only place to draw money from is the really passionate people. Its not like the general public attends BB shows or anything. The only place to get money is from those in the sport and those willing to go watch the people in the sport. In fact the sport doesn't exist w/o the federations. People don't get together & posedown in the back yard on Saturday w/ the guys and some beers. They do that w/ baseball, but not BB.

Oh, how the neighbors would talk if that was a backyard activity:D

sassy69
03-29-2009, 06:53 PM
Oh, how the neighbors would talk if that was a backyard activity:D

.. its not a big leap of imagination to see how the webcam industry ties in....

sassy69
03-29-2009, 07:18 PM
This may just show my igonorance or lack of knowledge, but who chooses the judges for the shows? Is it consistenly the same group of judges for the show done by region or what? Perhaps if you could research the shows and the judges and how they typically place the competitors, that might shed some light - but then that begs the question, do you really have time to do that and will the research bear out consistentcy or more the flavor of the day!


This topic I'd like to defer to some of our resident NPC judges on the selection process. Tammy P is a judge, Slat1 is a judge who I know went thru the selection process a few years go.

I've heard of some of the process -i.e. they have you sort of shadow judge and then comapre the consistency of your marks w/ the existing judges to see if your "criteria" and critiques are in line w/ whatever is the "established criteria" ... I suppose that would make it subjective relative to a bunch of other subjective opinions of people who have been determined to have the most accurate subjective opinions. (Did that make sense...?)

But let me get those in the know to give some insight!

Gunz
03-31-2009, 08:40 AM
This topic I'd like to defer to some of our resident NPC judges on the selection process. Tammy P is a judge, Slat1 is a judge who I know went thru the selection process a few years go.

I've heard of some of the process -i.e. they have you sort of shadow judge and then comapre the consistency of your marks w/ the existing judges to see if your "criteria" and critiques are in line w/ whatever is the "established criteria" ... I suppose that would make it subjective relative to a bunch of other subjective opinions of people who have been determined to have the most accurate subjective opinions. (Did that make sense...?)

But let me get those in the know to give some insight!

I'm just curious how the process works. Hopefully someone will pick up the thread and make a comment or two.

tammyp
04-01-2009, 07:13 AM
This topic I'd like to defer to some of our resident NPC judges on the selection process. Tammy P is a judge, Slat1 is a judge who I know went thru the selection process a few years go.

I've heard of some of the process -i.e. they have you sort of shadow judge and then comapre the consistency of your marks w/ the existing judges to see if your "criteria" and critiques are in line w/ whatever is the "established criteria" ... I suppose that would make it subjective relative to a bunch of other subjective opinions of people who have been determined to have the most accurate subjective opinions. (Did that make sense...?)

But let me get those in the know to give some insight!

jim rockell is my district rep and he is also a bff of george. he asked me abouting judging a few yrs back and i had jidged local nattie shows b4. they test judge you 1st, and talk long about what to look for etc. this is for local shows. i know nationals and ifbb judges have much stricter criteria.

sassy69
04-02-2009, 03:55 AM
With much thanks to gymdiva & some of the mods for locating this, from the North Carolina NPC site (www.ncnpc.com (http://www.ncnpc.com), Be A Judge link):

http://i44.tinypic.com/s0vtr5.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2604iu0.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/nnl5ll.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2742.jpg

And for reference, I googled to find a copy of the NPC Rules & Guidelines for Judging and found a scanned copy on the NPC Alaska site (www.npcalaska.com (http://www.npcalaska.com)):
http://www.npcalaska.com/judging/NPC%20Rules%20and%20Guidelines.pdf

Slat1
04-06-2009, 11:36 PM
I judge for the NPC in six states... all of New England.
The process starts off pretty simple. I contacted the District Chairman who gave me a book he put together on the criteria the NPC set. I studied it for a while and at the next show I test judged. Not only was I grading the competitors but I was being graded by the Chairman. Every catagory my scores were compared to the other judges. I had to take notes (not only for the competitors but to show what I saw). How long I took was watched.
After a few shows I was asked to become a permanent judge.
The big thing our Chairman is looking for is being consistent, being fast and showing the competitors respect. While this may be fun for me this is a livelyhood for the Promoter and how we perform affects everyone.
When things change in the NPC we get an email alerting us that the criteria has changed. This comes from the Chairman also.
I may be lucky that the two I work for take it very serious and they like to be as efficient as possible.
If you would like more information on being a judge contact your district chair.
I will tell everyone something. Everything looks a lot different from the judges table then it does from the crowd or onstage. You notice everything! EVERYTHING!!!

sassy69
04-07-2009, 02:32 AM
Thx for sharing Slat!