Quad training for advanced lifters

[Hammerfit]

Here's a suggestion from Dante from DC Training on how to bring up quads

What are your thoughts?


day one

Deep squats
135x12-20
225x12-20
315x12-20
365x12-20

425x12 to failure
Obvious rest and then
455x6-9 reps failure

then

widowmaker on kickass leg press that they think they get alot out of--deep reps

Each side:
90x20
180x20
270x20
360x20
450x20
and on and onward
until they get the all out brutal 15-20 widow to failure...lets say it ends up hypothetically at
540x18 reps

next leg day

Hack squats (each side)
90x12-20
135x12-20
180x12-20
225x12-20

280x12-15 to failure
obvious rest and then
305-315x8-11 to failure

widowmaker on kickass leg press that they think they get alot out of

Each side:
90x20
180x20
270x20
360x20
and on a
450x20
and on until they get the all out brutal 15-20 widow to failure...last week they ended up with 540x18...so lets say this week they wanted to go even heavier but not below 15 and got
565 x 15 reps

Next Leg day

Smythe Machine Squats or Front Squats or a different leg press than the widowmaker or Standing Squat machine or Barbell lunges with Barbell on back etc etc etc....lets use Smythe machine Squats (each side)
45x12-20
90x12-20
135x12-20
180x12-20

240x12 to failure
Obvious rest and then
265-275x6-9 reps (failure)

widowmaker on kickass leg press that they think they get alot out of

Each side:
90x20
180x20
270x20
360x20
and on a
450x20
and onward until they get the all out brutal 15-20 widow to failure...they got 565 x 15 reps last time so maybe 575-580 x 20 reps this time.

Advanced guys because there isnt restpausing being done for quads who still have weaker quads being so advanced IMO need an abundance of reps and work to get results....and striving for 12-20 reps on your warmup sets gets it done....because everyone in here knows 4 plates on each side of the smythe for 20 reps (warmup set of not) is pretty darn brutal. I do think most advanced guys though could get the job done with making all of their warmup sets 12 reps (maybe 15 if you really need to catchup)......
__________________

[axioma]

Looks like alot of volume to me. No way can I do 20 rep warmups for 5 or 6 sets and still expect to have a decent 5-6 rep set?
Explain the widowmaker concept again. And what is the superduper leg press? Vertical?

[joedemarco]

Are the weights listed for anyone in particular? I would imagine each of us would have to make adjustments on that?

[Hammerfit]

Looks like alot of volume to me. No way can I do 20 rep warmups for 5 or 6 sets and still expect to have a decent 5-6 rep set?
Explain the widowmaker concept again. And what is the superduper leg press? Vertical?

What Dante is referring to is a leg press that is capable of letting you go deep. Not all of them are designed that way. The one we have will not. If you go back to far your spine will lift off the pad and that's dangerous when loaded up. That's why I started doing Suicide Squats on Smith instead of leg press. On those I can lower the weight until my knees are getting close to my ears. It does lift your spine off but for some reason it's doesn't load up the pressure on the spine. I can't explain why, I just know by field testing that it works.

The widow set is a pyramiding up set of 20 reps with each weight. 20 reps, add weight, 20 more reps add weight, then the "widow" part is when you can not achieve 20 reps.

If you do this directly after blowing your wad on the squats I promise you will be crying. As he states, this is for advanced lifters, which I think most of us here are. This is def not for the common man.

[Hammerfit]

Are the weights listed for anyone in particular? I would imagine each of us would have to make adjustments on that?

Yes, they are for a specific trainee. I would take my max lift of 6-9 reps and extrapolate for the previous sets. Interestingly enough the back squats are very close numbers for me. But when you get to the Smith Squats, that's 550lbs x 6-9 reps! (not including the bar) Way over my head, they would be looking for me under the slab.

So let's say my 6-9 rep for smith is 465 which is 84% of his number
So my Smith numbers would be: ( leaving the 1st 2 sets alone)
90x20
180x20
225x20
305x20
405x12
465x6-9

then hit the widow set of leg press or as in my case suicide squats
same scheme I know I can get 450lbs x 18-20 so that would be my widow
So my entire widow set may look like this:
2pl esx20
3 pl es x 20
4 pl es x 20
5 pl es to fail if I hit 20 go to 6 pl es to fail

[Mac]

Are the weights listed for anyone in particular? I would imagine each of us would have to make adjustments on that?

Yes, you would need to ADD some weight to what is shown.

[Hammerfit]

Looks like alot of volume to me. No way can I do 20 rep warmups for 5 or 6 sets and still expect to have a decent 5-6 rep set?
Explain the widowmaker concept again. And what is the superduper leg press? Vertical?

It's all relative Matt. The point is getting the volume in, much in the same manner we do 10 sets of 10 reps scheme. The only difference is keep increasing the weight so you are getting both heavy ass weight and high volume.

[joedemarco]

yes, you would need to add some weight to what is shown.

lmao...

[axioma]

I'll try it next leg day.

[mrky03]

Looks interesting, Dante knows his stuff. Never saw him advise that kind of volume but it certainly looks like it would be right up your alley!

[HeavyDutyGuy]

Is DANTE moving away from DC?

[Hammerfit]

Is DANTE moving away from DC?

Dog Crap Training in itself has evolved to be many things. Yes some of his minions were bitchin about the volume. This is something he has devised for his advanced lifters that are having trouble bringing up their quads.

This is not your normal DC training, which is why I thought it would be perfect for this crowd! LOL!

[Baldiewonkanobi]

I am enjoying this read. In part due to the clear picture Mike paints, I do a somewhat familiar routine, and for the first time in 30 years of competition I can say both Thank You and Fuck You to Vince Gironda who mocked my Ecto legs.

My volume is done with a 2nd leg day. Day 1 is heavy day, Day 2 is rep day shooting for 20 each set. Idea is to add some weights on every week. For 6 weeks I have avoided any bars/pads pushing down on my traps/delts with surgery being so fresh. Thurs I will sneak back in my face down Sumo squats in the hack machine.

The older the Master it seems the poorer the legs/glutes. Why?

Baldie

[Mac]

The older the Master it seems the poorer the legs/glutes. Why?


Laziness.

[Hammerfit]

I am enjoying this read. In part due to the clear picture Mike paints, I do a somewhat familiar routine, and for the first time in 30 years of competition I can say both Thank You and Fuck You to Vince Gironda who mocked my Ecto legs.

My volume is done with a 2nd leg day. Day 1 is heavy day, Day 2 is rep day shooting for 20 each set. Idea is to add some weights on every week. For 6 weeks I have avoided any bars/pads pushing down on my traps/delts with surgery being so fresh. Thurs I will sneak back in my face down Sumo squats in the hack machine.

The older the Master it seems the poorer the legs/glutes. Why?

Baldie

We could write volumes on this...maybe that will be my next blog
W

[Hammerfit]

"Oh yea cant forget.....I like the advanced guys to do the adductor machine for
20-30 reps restpaused.....after warmups

If i was training this guy---I would put him on that adductor machine like no tommorow.......he would be bombing that machine like his life depended on it."

I can't agree with this more, Steve got me hooked on adductors several months ago. I do much more than 30 reps, sometimes 50-100, Rest Pause to 50 w 300lbs will light you up! It had improved my inner hamstring, which makes the leg looking much wider from the front

[Baldiewonkanobi]

We could write volumes on this...maybe that will be my next blog
W

Take a look at last years National Over 60s group. The Pro Card winner had poor legs, saggy ass and no hams. I am gonna take a run at these guys in 2012 at age 72. Kick their sorry saggy asses.

I have had 3 Meniscus surgeries and arthritis in both hips AND knees. Yet I want legs and suck it up. I have hated my Gwenyth Paltroe ecto legs ever since I signed up with Bill Pearl in 1980.

There is no better feeling than sticking your spinning head in the trash can after a nasty leg set.

Baldie

[joedemarco]

Take a look at last years National Over 60s group. The Pro Card winner had poor legs, saggy ass and no hams. I am gonna take a run at these guys in 2012 at age 72. Kick their sorry saggy asses.

I have had 3 Meniscus surgeries and arthritis in both hips AND knees. Yet I want legs and suck it up. I have hated my Gwenyth Paltroe ecto legs ever since I signed up with Bill Pearl in 1980.

There is no better feeling than sticking your spinning head in the trash can after a nasty leg set.

Baldie

I am dead serious when I say, that if you have never thrown up during a leg workout then you don't train legs HARD ENOUGH!

[BigJD69]

I am dead serious when I say, that if you have never thrown up during a leg workout then you don't train legs HARD ENOUGH!
I am having flashbacks now gonna throw up my eggs! LOL

[Hammerfit]

Take a look at last years National Over 60s group. The Pro Card winner had poor legs, saggy ass and no hams. I am gonna take a run at these guys in 2012 at age 72. Kick their sorry saggy asses.

I have had 3 Meniscus surgeries and arthritis in both hips AND knees. Yet I want legs and suck it up. I have hated my Gwenyth Paltroe ecto legs ever since I signed up with Bill Pearl in 1980.

There is no better feeling than sticking your spinning head in the trash can after a nasty leg set.

Baldie

Hell Bill look at any of the over 50 winners in the last few years, what was the black dudes name that won in 09? In his interview Dave asked him, "you been trying to get your pro card for what 12 years, what was the difference this year." His answer, "The judges kept telling me, bring up your legs, I finally listened" Would you not agree, at least in the Grand Masters and above, legs will win everytime? You come in with soft watery legs and you are now in the same boat as most everyone. If you have THICK conditioned legs, you win. For no other reason, you train the piss out of your legs your core is point on, no need for thousands of crunches.

[Hammerfit]

I am dead serious when I say, that if you have never thrown up during a leg workout then you don't train legs HARD ENOUGH!

Joe most people are scared to train legs intense, I know I was a few years back. My excuse was 12 knee surgeries. Then my mentor of that day, said "well it is what it is, You can compete and just have fun." Trust me when I say it is not fun hearing your name called out in second or third place! The next day we were doing vsquats and I have never looked back. Now my favorite training day is legs. There's nothing I'd rather do than to see myself turning purple with snot coming down my face w a heavy load on my back! Airborne!

[Hammerfit]

Well I took a shot at it on Wed and my report back is that this is freakin insane! Heavy weights yeah we all can handle that. But 80-100 reps before you get to the heavy weight set and you will loose your cookies. My wife helped push me through the misery, kept screaming light weight baby!

I used the Hack Squats as the widow set following the high rep front squats and that was just as bad. It's all good though. If that's what it takes then that's what I will at least attempt to do.

One other thing, if you do this, dont do dead lifts the next day!

[Hammerfit]

Justin Harris doing widow maker set of Hacks. Warning do not watch if you do not like to see pain.

50ZbkDQWwyY

[axioma]

Awesome!
1. I used to do the "sissy version" of hacks, the way he started, feet low, but tore my quad tendon...so I would advise extreme caution...and the added stress on lumbars is nuts! I use a sissy squat bench apparatus so I am pushing upward instead of force being directed through the knees.
2. "NO PAIN"...lol! I love when trainers say this...Uh, yes...there is pain. I like to hear....Embrace the Pain...make love to the pain...bend pain over and....you get the picture...but NO PAIN...c'mon.

Great post Mike.

[Hammerfit]

Awesome!
1. I used to do the "sissy version" of hacks, the way he started, feet low, but tore my quad tendon...so I would advise extreme caution...and the added stress on lumbars is nuts! I use a sissy squat bench apparatus so I am pushing upward instead of force being directed through the knees.
2. "NO PAIN"...lol! I love when trainers say this...Uh, yes...there is pain. I like to hear....Embrace the Pain...make love to the pain...bend pain over and....you get the picture...but NO PAIN...c'mon.

Great post Mike.

Ha! I know I don't like people screaming at me when Im focusing either. Especially the typical BS; light weight, no problem, this is easy weight (Lisa's fav) I threw up in mouth under squat bar last week when she said 315 was light weight, and it was but after doing a hundred reps its all heavy! If you think its easy get your ass under the bar and knock out 120 reps of squats (with any weight)!

Back to the subject. "Sissy" Hack Squats. What a weird name for that crap! Ive tried this w no weight on the hack machine and it will torch your knees, I would imagine even w healthy knees it would be alot of pressure. However....If you can do this (without rupturing a tendon!) it's looks like, at least mechanically, this would isolate the vastus medialis (teardop) then it's at least worth a try.

A Physical Therapist will once told me that leg extensions are the worst exercise for the knee. I'm sure they wouldn't be found of this one either. So it seems that the exercises that put the most stress on the knee joint are the most effective at building the VM. So if we are to add these to our arsenal we are going to have to figure out how to most effectively use it without damaging the knees. I've done this with other leg exercises and will give this some field testing tomorrow. Stay Tuned!

[Scott Stevenson]

Hammer, Baldie, et al.,

I'd love for you guys to try this exercise out and tell me how it feels on your knees. Mine tend to get irritated pretty easy, but this exercise gives my no problems and trust me when I say it nails the quads. (That's me in the vid. I'm 40.)

Skip past the home gym tour if you like.

8a9KJVHmVig

-Scott

[Hammerfit]

Hammer, Baldie, et al.,

I'd love for you guys to try this exercise out and tell me how it feels on your knees. Mine tend to get irritated pretty easy, but this exercise gives my no problems and trust me when I say it nails the quads. (That's me in the vid. I'm 40.)

Skip past the home gym tour if you like.

8a9KJVHmVig

-Scott

Awesome Scott and thanks for contributing to this thread. I will def try this tomorrow. Our Hack Squat Machine sucks. It's very hard on my knees. So this could be exactly what I have been looking for.

[freebirdmac]

Hammer, Baldie, et al.,

I'd love for you guys to try this exercise out and tell me how it feels on your knees. Mine tend to get irritated pretty easy, but this exercise gives my no problems and trust me when I say it nails the quads. (That's me in the vid. I'm 40.)

Skip past the home gym tour if you like.

8a9KJVHmVig

-Scott

I'd like to try these too! So you do go up on your toes and knees move outward?

[joedemarco]

Very interesting exercise. Thanks for posting.

[Scott Stevenson]

Awesome Scott and thanks for contributing to this thread. I will def try this tomorrow. Our Hack Squat Machine sucks. It's very hard on my knees. So this could be exactly what I have been looking for.

I like them quite a bit, to be honest. They add a new aspect to program design, too in that they're pretty damn close to an all quad exercise, like knee extensions, which I would not typically do. They really leave the hamstrings pretty fresh and work well for me b/c my hams (and glutes) get greatly involved in pretty much all squatting and leg pressing movements.

These are a great one for days when you want to do stiff-legged DL's b/c they don't tax the low back as much as say squats, or even hack squats or a machine squat of some sort. This could, on the other hand, leave your program open to do more deadlifting b/c you've got a day when you can still demolish quads but not tax your low back.

And of course, as I note, this is a great one for widowmakers, but lots of folks (myself included) go heavy on these too without a problem.


I'd like to try these too! So you do go up on your toes and knees move outward?

You go up on your toes just as needed - it will happen naturally, so there's not need to constrain yourself to that like with doing a sissy squat. You knees will come forward moreso than on a squatting movement, too. (Using a smith allows this.)

I'm interested in whether folks get (patellofemoral in paticular) knee pain with this one (moreso than on other quad exercises).

Freebird, you'll also have to probably rig something up using a box or a step to make this work (for depth) on most smith machines. If there's an angle to the smith, pick the direction you like best (for most, this is leaning forward a bit).


Very interesting exercise. Thanks for posting.

No problemo!

-Scott

[Baldiewonkanobi]

Hmmmm. Like the toe placement. Our new Sissy Squat gizmo will be arriving shortly.....I will compare action.


Baldie

[Hammerfit]

Got these done today.
Set 1 was ridiculous feet to far in front of bar
Set 2 was better hard to stay on toes on way back up
Set 3 getting better still awkward, legs trembling on way back up
Set 4 finally go it all figured out, the key is leaning back while up on your toes

This is for sure a bad ass quad exercise. It will have you shaking in your boots, especially if you have already pre exhausted like we did with back squats
I would suggest you have someone behind you to hold your back so you can get used to leaning back.

Thanks a ton for sharing this Scott. It's amazing how easy you made this extremely difficult move look! Trust me this is not easy!

[HeavyDutyGuy]

My latest leg workout- carrying our stuff up a narrow set of wooden stairs to our new digs. We have rented the second floor of a house that was converted into an apartment- hence the wooden stairs. The love seat was a challenge.. something like 25 trips.

[freebirdmac]

Are the heels close to touching each other?

[Hammerfit]

Are the heels close to touching each other?

about 4-6" apart

[freebirdmac]

about 4-6" apart

Thanks Mike! I'm looking forward to trying these Tues :)

[Scott Stevenson]

Got these done today.
Set 1 was ridiculous feet to far in front of bar
Set 2 was better hard to stay on toes on way back up
Set 3 getting better still awkward, legs trembling on way back up
Set 4 finally go it all figured out, the key is leaning back while up on your toes

This is for sure a bad ass quad exercise. It will have you shaking in your boots, especially if you have already pre exhausted like we did with back squats
I would suggest you have someone behind you to hold your back so you can get used to leaning back.

Thanks a ton for sharing this Scott. It's amazing how easy you made this extremely difficult move look! Trust me this is not easy!

Great feedback, HF. Glad you liked 'em!

I'm interested too (this is not calling you out) as to how much weight you used relative to your squatting weight. (For instance, some guys are very strong on regular BB hack squats relative to BB back squats. Others not so much.) I think it really says something as to how much this isolates the quads when you consider how much weight you can move compared to what you're doing when there's good low back, glute and hamstring involvement on a BB back squat.


Are the heels close to touching each other?

Like HF said, pretty close. This just feels most natural to me (and most folks I've gotten feedback from), plus it means you can simply hold the bar at shoulder width and having the feet closer further isolates the quads. The eternal rotation (ala an Olympic squat or in bodybuilding, how Tom Platz squats) or "toes pointed out" is also more comfortable to me and doesn't seem to lessen quad involvement.

-Scott

[Hammerfit]

Great feedback, HF. Glad you liked 'em!

I'm interested too (this is not calling you out) as to how much weight you used relative to your squatting weight. (For instance, some guys are very strong on regular BB hack squats relative to BB back squats. Others not so much.) I think it really says something as to how much this isolates the quads when you consider how much weight you can move compared to what you're doing when there's good low back, glute and hamstring involvement on a BB back squat.



Like HF said, pretty close. This just feels most natural to me (and most folks I've gotten feedback from), plus it means you can simply hold the bar at shoulder width and having the feet closer further isolates the quads. The eternal rotation (ala an Olympic squat or in bodybuilding, how Tom Platz squats) or "toes pointed out" is also more comfortable to me and doesn't seem to lessen quad involvement.

-Scott

Yep you guessed it, my PB BB Back Squat is 455 for 8. I used a 25 on each side for these! I used alot of energy just trying to get the negative right, it was screaming my knees until I got my feet in the right position. I dont much care about the weight, hell I'd stand on my head and do them if I thought it would help!

[Scott Stevenson]

Yep you guessed it, my PB BB Back Squat is 455 for 8. I used a 25 on each side for these! I used alot of energy just trying to get the negative right, it was screaming my knees until I got my feet in the right position. I dont much care about the weight, hell I'd stand on my head and do them if I thought it would help!

Yes, foot placement is big, but once you get it right, you're good. The interesting thing is that, at least for me, that foot placement feels a bit odd I think in part b/c it's a new exercise and also b/c it's outside of the biomechanics I've been used to for squatting, leg presses, etc. The difference in the loads you can handle demonstrate this and when setting up for the exercise the first few times, my body just knew that I couldn't lift shit with my feet in that spot, but its the only way to for the exercise to feel right overall.

Frankly, I'd rather use less weight on stuff some times b/c it can be just a pain in the ass to load everything up. Give me enough weight for an 8-10RM that takes me 15 seconds to load up and I'd much prefer it over spending 15 minutes loading a machine (like a leg press). (Some days, though, it is cool load up a the bar and get fired up to do some battle...)

-S

[Hammerfit]

Yes, foot placement is big, but once you get it right, you're good. The interesting thing is that, at least for me, that foot placement feels a bit odd I think in part b/c it's a new exercise and also b/c it's outside of the biomechanics I've been used to for squatting, leg presses, etc. The difference in the loads you can handle demonstrate this and when setting up for the exercise the first few times, my body just knew that I couldn't lift shit with my feet in that spot, but its the only way to for the exercise to feel right overall.

Frankly, I'd rather use less weight on stuff some times b/c it can be just a pain in the ass to load everything up. Give me enough weight for an 8-10RM that takes me 15 seconds to load up and I'd much prefer it over spending 15 minutes loading a machine (like a leg press). (Some days, though, it is cool load up a the bar and get fired up to do some battle...)

-S

Yeah, it's mostly going to be getting used to the awkward position and the fact that I got some horrible flexibility. So it's a work in progress and Im sure it will get somewhat easier. If you can think of anything else you may think of that will help fill out quads let me know. Feel free to preview to my leg training and make suggestions.

[Mac]

If you can think of anything else you may think of that will help fill out quads let me know.

Synthol works if you're into that kind of thing.


:no:

[freebirdmac]

Synthol works if you're into that kind of thing.


:no:

Lol!

[Hammerfit]

Synthol works if you're into that kind of thing.


:no:

oh so thats how u got so big :yep:

[Mac]

oh so thats how u got so big :yep:

:poke:

No, I hate f'n needles and if I didn't mind them, this would be the very last thing to put in my body.

However, it will accomplish your goal.

[Hammerfit]

:poke:

No, I hate f'n needles and if I didn't mind them, this would be the very last thing to put in my body.

However, it will accomplish your goal.

Never actually known anyone who used that drug, def not my bag

[Scott Stevenson]

Yeah, it's mostly going to be getting used to the awkward position and the fact that I got some horrible flexibility. So it's a work in progress and Im sure it will get somewhat easier. If you can think of anything else you may think of that will help fill out quads let me know. Feel free to preview to my leg training and make suggestions.

HF,

I don't know really much about your training (where do I preview it?), but the first thing that jumps to mind is that if your flexibility is poor, going deep / using full ROM and movements that accentuate stretch (like a stiff-legged deadlift) could be helpful. Also, DC training style extreme stretching really seems to bring out separation, as well.

-S

[Hammerfit]

HF,

I don't know really much about your training (where do I preview it?), but the first thing that jumps to mind is that if your flexibility is poor, going deep / using full ROM and movements that accentuate stretch (like a stiff-legged deadlift) could be helpful. Also, DC training style extreme stretching really seems to bring out separation, as well.

-S

Hammer's Log is name of thread there's only 1 leg session there but I change it around a lot. But that will give an idea of what my main exercises are On quad only days I do front squats On ham only days do lots of SLDL I do the extreme stretches, I am somewhat limited in flexibility due to knee replacement on rt side and no acl on left side but I can do most anything just ROM is limited by the mechanical setting in implant I think it's 120 degrees but I could be wrong, it was called a sports knee. Thanks for your help

[D_T]

Frankly, I'd rather use less weight on stuff some times b/c it can be just a pain in the ass to load everything up. Give me enough weight for an 8-10RM that takes me 15 seconds to load up and I'd much prefer it over spending 15 minutes loading a machine (like a leg press). (Some days, though, it is cool load up a the bar and get fired up to do some battle...)

-S
I'm with you there. Sometimes I do my first set with whatever is already on the machine then adjust depending on how that felt. I like 12-15 reps on legs except on squats; I'd rather do 6-10 there.

I just now recognized you from Dave's vids.....Go Dawgs!